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stonehorse
09-07-2008, 18:07
I was flicking through the Lord of the Rings rule book and some of the army books that go with it the other day it suddenly dawns on me that they are in full colour.

This might not seem like a big deal, but it got me thinking, 40K, and WFB books are for most part Black & White, with small amounts of colour. Lord of the Rings was/is GW's way of getting people into their hobby, the best way to get them in is to show them a quality product, which I'm sure a full colour publication line does go some way to help enforce.

So why are 40K, and WFB relegated to the 'stuck in the past' Black & White publications? I can see the charm in a certain amount of Black & White artwork... just not the vast majority of it.

I personally think it is because GW knows that the books for 40K, and WFB are disposable, they have a shelf life of 4-6 years before they will be replaced by the new edition.

I took this little thought further and noticed that those companies a lot of people like to downplay as being small and insignificant do produce full colour books, yet aren't as big or have the same profit as GW does.

I for one have come to the conclusion that it is a very cheap move on GW's behalf to continue to not produce full colour books for 40K, and WFB.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-07-2008, 18:13
The majority of the artwork is also Black and White, and always has been. Thus, some pages would be colour, and others not.

Things are improving, with colour sections etc. in both Fantasy and 40k, but I think it's not all that necessary given the lower count of colour art.

stonehorse
09-07-2008, 18:20
'The majority of the artwork is also Black and White'

I have seen a lot of the colour artwork off box sets filtered to being Black & White, and used as the artwork in the books. The latest Dwarf book for example is full of it.

IJW
09-07-2008, 18:30
This might not seem like a big deal, but it got me thinking, 40K, and WFB books are for most part Black & White, with small amounts of colour.
You might want to take another look at the new 40k rulebook...

Darnok
09-07-2008, 18:32
Flicking through the new 40K rulebook, I can't agree. Everything past page 95 is full colour (with exceptions in form of B&W artwork), and the dfirst pages are too. That is over two thirds of the important 40K 300+ page book in colour.

Royal Tiger
09-07-2008, 20:15
ugh, color artwork really does not work in my opinion, black and white is far more dramatic

black and white art >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> color art

Binky
10-07-2008, 08:03
I wonder if it could have been connected with the LOTR licence, as far as I can remember, in the original LOTR rulebooks all the artwork was stills from the films, so might have been that they were only allowed to reproduce the film stills in colour (or just thought they wouldn't look very good in black and white) so the books either had to be full colour or have pages with no artwork.

Bob5000
10-07-2008, 08:08
I'm a fan of the Warmachine Prime remix available in soft cover at half the price of a 40K book , I thought when I bought it a while ago that GW could do with producing something as good as that .

starlight
10-07-2008, 08:08
Recall also that much of the WFB/40K artwork is recycled from past Editions...which were in B&W. The newer stuff has a much higher proportion of colour.:)


The *likeness* aspects of the LotR license likely had a fair amount to do with using movie stills and photos of models, rather than new artwork for those rule books.


However cost is likely one of the largest factors - old artwork is paid for, new artwork is far more costly than photos.

blongbling
10-07-2008, 08:39
there is also only a finite amount of artisits that GW uses to produce its artists, this is jsut one project that they work on so they have to allot time accordingly

Osbad
10-07-2008, 08:59
I hate to drag this down to a PP vs. GW debate, but leaving aside debates about quality of gameplay etc., I do think that the Prime Remix really spanked GW's offerings ass. Now I haven't looked at the new 5th edition rulebook yet, so it may be better, but purely based on artwork and colour Prime Remix aced WFB 7th edition and 40k 4th edition.

Now GW may have raised their game with 5th ed. I don't know. But if they want to compete on the "look and feel" playing field they darn well had to! And if a smaller company like PP can "afford" the time and resources to put into the look and feel of their main rulebook (and Corvus Belli did a bang up full colour job with Infinity too. As have Rackham with AT-43 and CAotR) then GW have no excuses.

Just to put things into context:

AT-43 and Confrontation rulebooks - full colour, softback 17.
Infinity rulebook - full colour, hardback 20
Prime Remix - full colour, softback 15, hardback 25

For 30, GW need to produce pretty much full colour to compete against current trends.

Now codices and army books are not "core rulebooks", but again, Rackham achieves its full colour army books at 8 or less, so why shouldn't GW who have much greater economies of scale? Given the print runs GW make in comparison to their competitors, they really have no excuse for putting out lower quality at a higher price.

Now, of course, all of this is about production values not about gameplay etc.

However, I do feel that when it comes to production values the competition have leaped ahead of GW - who initially set the pace. The LOTR rulebooks aside, anyhow.

Maybe its because there are so many existing players who are happy enough with lesser quality and ever ready to give GW all the excuses they need?

Richter Kless
10-07-2008, 10:27
We understand, Privateer Press is fantastic and should all be playing that.

Rick_1138
10-07-2008, 10:27
You might want to take another look at the new 40k rulebook...

i am...eeeeeee!


got my collectors ed and gamers ed yestarday, GF was laughin as i came home from office and poured over my shiny things.

the new game counters etc are ace!

Oh and lots of colour in the new rule book.

i took it with me to the office to read during lunch! (not the CE one mind)

Griefbringer
10-07-2008, 10:34
Actually, GW has produced a number of WHFB publications that are in full colour, such as the collector guides, WHFB Storm of Chaos book, General's Compendium, Warhammer Chronicles 2002-2004, and of course the White Dwarf.

As for other manufacturers, Target Games was able to crank out a full colour Warzone rulebook (144 pages or so) back in the mid-90s, though that presumably recycled a lot of earlier colour artwork.

Hrafn
10-07-2008, 12:33
I do think that the Prime Remix really spanked GW's offerings ass. Now I haven't looked at the new 5th edition rulebook yet, so it may be better, but purely based on artwork and colour Prime Remix aced WFB 7th edition and 40k 4th edition.

Now, of course, all of this is about production values not about gameplay etc.

However, I do feel that when it comes to production values the competition have leaped ahead of GW - who initially set the pace. The LOTR rulebooks aside, anyhow.

Maybe its because there are so many existing players who are happy enough with lesser quality and ever ready to give GW all the excuses they need?

Exactly. I agree absolutely. As said, if looking at the quality of print and design (NOT gameplay), GW is appalingly far behind PP. I remember when I started with Hordes, I was almost stunned at the difference between GW and PP -especially as the PP books are very competitative as to price.
Sorry, but you have to be a fanboi to claim that Warhammer publications can match such offerings as Apocalypse from a design point of view.
Given GW's potential and talent, I''d say that the the last few years of standarts in Warhammer publications are exactly a symptom of the "fat lazy mentality" that GW is trying to do away with.

[DISCLAIMER: No, this is not a rant. No, I don't claim that the warhammer GAME is teh suxxor. No, I don' claim that PP gamez roxxorz. ]


We understand, Privateer Press is fantastic and should all be playing that.

:rolleyes: Try and read the post next time instead of making knee-jerk reactions...

Templar Ben
10-07-2008, 13:00
We understand, Privateer Press is fantastic and should all be playing that.

I can understand why you feel that way but it is not what he said.


Exactly. I agree absolutely. As said, if looking at the quality of print and design (NOT gameplay), GW is appalingly far behind PP. I remember when I started with Hordes, I was almost stunned at the difference between GW and PP -especially as the PP books are very competitative as to price.
Sorry, but you have to be a fanboi to claim that Warhammer publications can match such offerings as Apocalypse from a design point of view.
Given GW's potential and talent, I''d say that the the last few years of standarts in Warhammer publications are exactly a symptom of the "fat lazy mentality" that GW is trying to do away with.

5th edition is the first product produced since the "fat and lazy" statement so perhaps this is a sign that they are changing. Maybe they want your business now.

Hrafn
10-07-2008, 13:02
I do think that the Prime Remix really spanked GW's offerings ass. Now I haven't looked at the new 5th edition rulebook yet, so it may be better, but purely based on artwork and colour Prime Remix aced WFB 7th edition and 40k 4th edition.

Now, of course, all of this is about production values not about gameplay etc.

However, I do feel that when it comes to production values the competition have leaped ahead of GW - who initially set the pace. The LOTR rulebooks aside, anyhow.

Maybe its because there are so many existing players who are happy enough with lesser quality and ever ready to give GW all the excuses they need?

Exactly. I agree absolutely. As said, if looking at the quality of print and design (NOT gameplay), GW is appalingly far behind PP. I remember when I started with Hordes, I was almost stunned at the difference between GW and PP -especially as the PP books are very competitative as to price.
Sorry, but you have to be a fanboi to claim that Warhammer publications can match such offerings as Apocalypse from a design point of view.
Given GW's potential and talent, I''d say that the the last few years of standarts in Warhammer publications are exactly a symptom of the "fat lazy mentality" that GW is trying to do away with.

[DISCLAIMER: No, this is not a rant. No, I don't claim that the warhammer GAME is teh suxxor. No, I don' claim that PP gamez roxxorz. ]


We understand, Privateer Press is fantastic and should all be playing that.

:rolleyes: Try and read the post next time instead of making knee-jerk reactions...

Richter Kless
10-07-2008, 14:20
I did and in my opinion, disclaimers do not make someone immune to criticism.

Templar Ben
10-07-2008, 14:33
I did and in my opinion, disclaimers do not make someone immune to criticism.

What exactly was your criticism though?


I hate to drag this down to a PP vs. GW debate, but leaving aside debates about quality of gameplay etc., I do think that the Prime Remix really spanked GW's offerings ass. Now I haven't looked at the new 5th edition rulebook yet, so it may be better, but purely based on artwork and colour Prime Remix aced WFB 7th edition and 40k 4th edition.

Now GW may have raised their game with 5th ed. I don't know. But if they want to compete on the "look and feel" playing field they darn well had to! And if a smaller company like PP can "afford" the time and resources to put into the look and feel of their main rulebook (and Corvus Belli did a bang up full colour job with Infinity too. As have Rackham with AT-43 and CAotR) then GW have no excuses.

Just to put things into context:

AT-43 and Confrontation rulebooks - full colour, softback 17.
Infinity rulebook - full colour, hardback 20
Prime Remix - full colour, softback 15, hardback 25

For 30, GW need to produce pretty much full colour to compete against current trends.

Now codices and army books are not "core rulebooks", but again, Rackham achieves its full colour army books at 8 or less, so why shouldn't GW who have much greater economies of scale? Given the print runs GW make in comparison to their competitors, they really have no excuse for putting out lower quality at a higher price.

Now, of course, all of this is about production values not about gameplay etc.

However, I do feel that when it comes to production values the competition have leaped ahead of GW - who initially set the pace. The LOTR rulebooks aside, anyhow.

Maybe its because there are so many existing players who are happy enough with lesser quality and ever ready to give GW all the excuses they need?

That is simply him stating his opinion that the books made by competitors were of much higher quality as far as art and presentation. These books also cost less.

He pointed out that he was not talking about game play, balance, models, rules or anything else. This is a thread just on the quality of the books by Games Workshop.

You are the one that made the leap that he is saying everyone should play PP games.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-07-2008, 15:31
ugh, color artwork really does not work in my opinion, black and white is far more dramatic

black and white art >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> color art


Well I don't know if I'd go that far but I understand where you're coming from and its the same with photographs. Black and white pictures are often more emotive.


I don't think that colour is naturally beneficial and frankly when you're reading a rule book its the words on the page that matter rather than the colours and the fancy font. Overall presentation helps to create a theme for the book but frankly it doesn't matter if you do it with black and white or not.

Jim30
10-07-2008, 18:45
Flames of War and Fields of glory are also full colour too - as are the army books. They are fantastic just to flick through.

Templar Ben
10-07-2008, 19:37
Flames of War and Fields of glory are also full colour too - as are the army books. They are fantastic just to flick through.

We understand, Flames of War is fantastic and should all be playing that.

:angel:

stonehorse
11-07-2008, 11:55
You might want to take another look at the new 40k rulebook...

Did that yesterday, and I still stand by my statement... I'm not just talking about artwork, but rather the whole book. The rules section still remains in black & White, where as Osbad correctly made clear PP and Rackham produce full colour rule books.

GW have done this with the LOTR, again which I see as a way of getting people into their hobby.