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Ixe
10-07-2008, 01:38
Obviously, the old skool 'seer council' unit of Doom from 3rd ed is gone. I'm talking about a big Warlock unit, with 1 or 2 joined farseers. Does 5th ed improve it, nerf it, or what?

Well, take your council on foot. It used to be psycannon cannon bait. Yes, assault cannons are pretty rare, but they had no defenses against one, save cover. Now, you can get a might 4+ cover save just from standing behind friendly troops. Combined with fortune, psycannons are no longer a threat to seer councils, provided they have a few meatshields around.

But then again, look at the shooting rules: everyone who is different must make his own save. So if you have just 1 Enhance warlock, he could get picked off, for instance. Same with your Farseers, even. Thanks to the new shooting rules, it looks like you need a larger council so you can allocate wounds to plain warlocks before you have to roll any saves for farseers or warlocks with important powers.

The big disappointment is with bike councils. They used to be able to turboboost for a fortuned 3+ invuln save. Now, turboboosting states (as I have been told) that you can't do any other voluntary action in the turn you turboboost. Bummer! Turboboosting, by preventing a seer from using fortune that turn, actually makes the unit easier to kill, not harder...

The big question mark, now, is with councils in wave serpents. I haven't read anyone discussing whether farseers can use powers while inside a tank again. In 3rd ed they could fortune their unit at the start of the turn, then get out all shiny and protected... I have a feeling that this still isn't possible in 5th ed. Anyone have information to the contrary?

garinator
10-07-2008, 03:42
BETTER!

Firstly, try taking a tooled up council of 6 locks with eldrad and yriel. It owns. Assault in 5th is all about killing them without them killing you. Combat modifiers are merely on who does the most kills. Seer councils do this insanely well. Eldrad and yriel (or at a pinch a normal autarch) provide 2+ power weapons and the others provide 2+ wounds. They also have 4++ rerollable saves. You maximise damage while minimising returning damage. Put that in a wave serpent with vectored engines. Zoom em 24" across the board with the serpent gaining a 4+ rerollable save after fortune. This will butcher characters, and especially Monstrous creatures. ALso because it is so tough it will also do well against hordes and with ld 10 rerolled because of embolden. It is expensive though. Seen it work, am going to try it myself as soon as local GW store moves to 5th.

I wont talk about this on foot as its not worth not investing in the tank. NOr can i talk about bike councils as I dont have one due to modelling constraints.

On the issue with wound allocation. Isn't this a good thing? I don't have a problem with each farseer taking 1-2 wounds. If the dice come up like that. Better than last edition when i had to take away wounds from one character all at once!

On tanks and casting powers. the consensus among eldar players is that you can. the reason you couldn't in 4th seems to be both because transported units counted as being off the board. They were not in the game until leaving the transport. In 5th you are now still on the board as you can be in a transport and capture an objective. Further the FAQ for 4th is not applicable to 5th. Thus I would say shooting attacks outside, no. But fortune, guide, doom: go ahead!

Ragewind
10-07-2008, 04:42
What he said

Homer S
10-07-2008, 14:19
The big disappointment is with bike councils. They used to be able to turboboost for a fortuned 3+ invuln save. Now, turboboosting states (as I have been told) that you can't do any other voluntary action in the turn you turboboost. Bummer! Turboboosting, by preventing a seer from using fortune that turn, actually makes the unit easier to kill, not harder...
I would have no problem thinking that turboboosting means no voluntary actions, once turboboosting. So, fortune at the start of the turn then put the throttle wide open!


The big question mark, now, is with councils in wave serpents. I haven't read anyone discussing whether farseers can use powers while inside a tank again. In 3rd ed they could fortune their unit at the start of the turn, then get out all shiny and protected... I have a feeling that this still isn't possible in 5th ed. Anyone have information to the contrary?
It's back to the heyday: Fortune/Guide squad and self or the vehicle. Doom doesn't require LOS either. You can't Mindwar or Eldrich anything outside as there are no firing ports. Until it's FAQ'd. The 4th edition FAQ does not carryover to 5th edition. They had a chance to include the discussion but chose not to.


On the issue with wound allocation. Isn't this a good thing? I don't have a problem with each farseer taking 1-2 wounds. If the dice come up like that. Better than last edition when i had to take away wounds from one character all at once!
As long as the shot isn't strong enough to cause instant death! It would be hard to take that many high strength shots, but I get your point. It just means doubling up on every power you have to have.

Homer

Ixe
10-07-2008, 15:13
Hmm, so there's still some controversy about bike councils? That's good to know... I'm sure it won't be resolved until more people have the final rules. I'm personally not going to accept anything I hear on faith until I read it myself and agree ;)

Danny Internet
10-07-2008, 15:31
On tanks and casting powers. the consensus among eldar players is that you can. the reason you couldn't in 4th seems to be both because transported units counted as being off the board. They were not in the game until leaving the transport. In 5th you are now still on the board as you can be in a transport and capture an objective. Further the FAQ for 4th is not applicable to 5th. Thus I would say shooting attacks outside, no. But fortune, guide, doom: go ahead!

The rules in 5th only say the following:

Unit of Troops embarked in a transport can control objectives (measure the distance to their vehicle’s hull).

They do not say that units embarked on in transports count as being on the board, they simply say that they can control objectives.

Stezerok
10-07-2008, 15:50
Obviously, the old skool 'seer council' unit of Doom from 3rd ed is gone. I'm talking about a big Warlock unit, with 1 or 2 joined farseers. Does 5th ed improve it, nerf it, or what?

I think it improves it over all. I think that the increase in the use of cover, and the improved toughness of tanks, makes both Destructor, and Singing Spears incredible. The ability to re-roll invulnerables was nothing new to these guys but what is nice is that this combined with a 2+ to wound really means guys are going to have a hard time with all the negative modifiers in combat.


Well, take your council on foot. It used to be psycannon cannon bait. Yes, assault cannons are pretty rare, but they had no defenses against one, save cover. Now, you can get a might 4+ cover save just from standing behind friendly troops. Combined with fortune, psycannons are no longer a threat to seer councils, provided they have a few meatshields around.

This is a well taken point, yes the availability of cover definitely helps against Psycannons and Incinerators.


But then again, look at the shooting rules: everyone who is different must make his own save. So if you have just 1 Enhance warlock, he could get picked off, for instance. Same with your Farseers, even. Thanks to the new shooting rules, it looks like you need a larger council so you can allocate wounds to plain warlocks before you have to roll any saves for farseers or warlocks with important powers.

Personally this doesn't really matter. It's no different from how it is now. The wound allocation system is just the same as now except that Torrent of Fire has been integrated. Whereas before you had to call out Torrent of Fire to ensure that the specific target took his save personally, now your opponent is just obligated to do so. Some people were talking about the virtues of having a unit of all different guys, to manipulate the odds of passing saves, but in the end I think it will end out to have the same results...


The big disappointment is with bike councils. They used to be able to turboboost for a fortuned 3+ invuln save. Now, turboboosting states (as I have been told) that you can't do any other voluntary action in the turn you turboboost. Bummer! Turboboosting, by preventing a seer from using fortune that turn, actually makes the unit easier to kill, not harder...

I think that Homer S is right. I personally would interpret the way it was worded as that anything can happen before the Turboboost, but once the movement phase happens and you go boosting around, then the council can't do anything. Of course I'll have to check it to be sure in a little bit...


The big question mark, now, is with councils in wave serpents. I haven't read anyone discussing whether farseers can use powers while inside a tank again. In 3rd ed they could fortune their unit at the start of the turn, then get out all shiny and protected... I have a feeling that this still isn't possible in 5th ed. Anyone have information to the contrary?

I think the big thing about this is that it's cheaper than bikes... a Council with 6 bikes will be paying 180 points for just the bikes, which in the end just provides better movement and a 3+ save... The Serpent on the other hand is a reliable and tough tank which can be imbued with Fortune when it's Moving Fast.

As far as Danny Internets response, I've heard only information to the contrary, and remember seeing so myself. From what I know, Psykers can now use powers inside of vehicles. The only restriction is that if they are shooting powers or powers that require LoS then obviously there must either be a Fire Point or they must be out of the vehicle. Thus I can Fortune my SMF Serpent from inside, and doom something outside for my Pathfinders or whatever...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Danny Internet
10-07-2008, 16:16
As far as Danny Internets response, I've heard only information to the contrary, and remember seeing so myself. From what I know, Psykers can now use powers inside of vehicles. The only restriction is that if they are shooting powers or powers that require LOS then obviously there must either be a Fire Point or they must be out of the vehicle. Thus I can Fortune my SMF Serpent from inside, and doom something outside for my Pathfinders or whatever...

This was true in 4th, but 4th edition rules are no longer relevant in 5th. I'd be curious to see if any rule exists that would allow models not on the board to use abilities. So far I haven't seen one.

EDIT: Just found this in the Fire Points section,

FIRE POINTS
A transport vehicle may have a number of fire points
defined in its entry. A fire point is a hatch or gun slit
from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle
can fire (or use a psychic power).

Strictly speaking, the embarked models are still not on the board, however this rule allows these models (if embarked on a transport) to still perform certain actions. Though of course, if you need line of sight, you'll need a fire point.

Stezerok
10-07-2008, 16:25
This was true in 4th, but 4th edition rules are no longer relevant in 5th. I'd be curious to see if any rule exists that would allow models not on the board to use abilities. So far I haven't seen one.

EDIT: Just found this in the Fire Points section,

FIRE POINTS
A transport vehicle may have a number of fire points
defined in its entry. A fire point is a hatch or gun slit
from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle
can fire (or use a psychic power).

That would suggest that even though the models are not on the board they can still use psychic powers. Though of course, if you need line of sight, you'll need a fire point.

Ok well, it actually wasn't the case in 4th. No psychic powers could be used in 4th as no models were considered to be "on the board" while inside the transport. Now in 5th they, are considered on the board, so that restriction is no longer valid.

Do you have the rulebook? I just wanted to know how you sited that Fire Points section so clearly? And if so, then we should look up the sections for Psychic powers and for Transports, as I remember one of those two had something about using powers while inside.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Danny Internet
10-07-2008, 16:28
Yes, I have the rulebook. I already checked and neither of those sections has anything about psychic powers being used from transports (aside from what I already quoted).


Ok well, it actually wasn't the case in 4th. No psychic powers could be used in 4th as no models were considered to be "on the board" while inside the transport. Now in 5th they, are considered on the board, so that restriction is no longer valid.

Psychic powers described as being used the same as shooting a weapon could be used while embarked on transports in 4th by using the rules for firing from transports.

EDIT: Found something else (I need to read more carefully :eyebrows: ),

When the unit embarks, it is
removed from the table and placed aside, making a
note or otherwise marking that the unit is being
transported (we find that placing one of the unit’s
models on top of the transport works well!). If the
players need to measure a range involving the
embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is
measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

This would suggest that abilities and psychic powers can be used while embarked on a transport.

Stezerok
10-07-2008, 16:43
hmm... thats interesting, I never knew about the shooting psychic powers in 4th...

Well so far we've seen signs leading to psychic powers being available in transports... it's a pity we don't have anything saying explicitly that they can. This could cause some major arguments until GW writes an FAQ...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

WallWeasels
10-07-2008, 18:57
It does imply the possibility, but in no way does it "suggest" its possible. For all we know this could be for the basis for another units rule in another future codex. as Stezerok says its basically going to be the argued point until an FAQ occurs.

Danny Internet
10-07-2008, 20:00
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imply

Main Entry:
im·ply Listen to the pronunciation of imply
Pronunciation:
\im-ˈplī\
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
im·plied; im·ply·ing
Etymology:
Middle English emplien, from Anglo-French emplier to entangle — more at employ
Date:
14th century

1 obsolete : enfold, entwine
2: to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement <rights imply obligations>
3: to contain potentially
4: to express indirectly <his silence implied consent>

synonyms see suggest



What section of the text of the 5th edition rulebook are you using to suggest that a model in a vehicle cannot use a psychic power?

Stezerok
10-07-2008, 20:55
although I wouldn't have said it in such a smart-alicky way :p I think I agree with Danny Internet. I mean ultimately an FAQ is the best solution. But I also think that for discussion purposes, we should look through the rulebook, and say:

"Ok what are the criteria for making psychic powers? What are the restrictions on making the psychic powers?"

Once both of those two things have been found, logically we should be able to say that "If a psyker in a transport can still meet all of the criteria for making psychic powers, and the transport does not subject the psyker to any of the given restrictions, then therefore the psyker is allowed to make his psychic powers from within the transport." That if/then method by itself is enough to prove that psykers can or cannot cast their powers whilst in a transport.

RAI can't deny that, as it could be the intention of the designers to have us put two and two together as such. And RAW can't deny it, as if its true, then the wording can only point to it being allowed.

So I'll take a moment today when I get the chance to visit the book in my local store, and read through the sections, and I'll post up what I find, and if it seems valid given the method I've suggested.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Nexto
10-07-2008, 21:06
Its not clear if psykers can use their powers when in a serpent. You can only assume that they are allowed to use powers because it doesnt say they cant.

But if you try to argue that way, u also have to accept that they can be subject to psychic powers which require no line of sight.

We had a discussion in another forum and at some point, someone proposed the following: "If you can use psychic powers inside closed transports, what about a librarian with fear of the darkness drop-podding right into your biel tann army and using his powers. Since models inside the transports can use their powers on stuff outside, we can also assume that they can be subject to powers from outside which require no los. So said librarian would use fear of darkness, your aspect warriors fail their ld test and have to flee. But where? They can only disembark in your turn or when their vehicle is destroyed - so they are trapped and thus annihilated because they cant complete their fall back move as written in the rules"

This made me atleast think about using psypowers in transports ;) It's really obvious that gw didnt think about neither using fortune nor fear of darkness in transports so you can safely assume that this is simply something to be FAQ'ed and nothing to be taken for granted. Until then, i wouldnt recommend to fortune your units in vehicles for the sake of playability...

king_mob
10-07-2008, 21:11
I would have no problem thinking that turboboosting means no voluntary actions, once turboboosting. So, fortune at the start of the turn then put the throttle wide open!


No, turbo-boosting prevents any voluntary actions during the turn outside of turbo-boosting.

Fortune is used "at the start of the Eldar turn", so it's obviously during the turn, and thus you can't turbo-boost if you plan to use that power (or any other Farseer powers for that matter).

Homer S
10-07-2008, 21:21
No, turbo-boosting prevents any voluntary actions during the turn outside of turbo-boosting.

Fortune is used "at the start of the Eldar turn", so it's obviously during the turn, and thus you can't turbo-boost if you plan to use that power (or any other Farseer powers for that matter).
So that means that my Space Marine on a bike that falls back in your player turn and then has to rally (automatically) cannot Turbo Boost in my player turn either?

Homer

Stezerok
10-07-2008, 21:26
Its not clear if psykers can use their powers when in a serpent. You can only assume that they are allowed to use powers because it doesnt say they cant.

Well again I personally think that the way I phrased my If/Then statement is a bit better than the "you are allowed to because it doesn't say you can't", only for the reason that I wouldn't want highly-imaginative people coming up with random things that you can do simply because the rulebook doesn't say you can't... Just saying that that's the reason I try to avoid those kind of statements...


This made me atleast think about using psypowers in transports ;) It's really obvious that gw didnt think about neither using fortune nor fear of darkness in transports so you can safely assume that this is simply something to be FAQ'ed and nothing to be taken for granted. Until then, i wouldnt recommend to fortune your units in vehicles for the sake of playability...

I dunno about this. It always bothers me when people assume GW's ignorance. The mere fact that vehicles can take cover saves, and that SMF/Smoke Screens are cover saves suggests to me that GW has looked at the possibility of Fortune on vehicles, which inevitably has to lead to something akin to Fortune inside vehicles. The idea that GW and all of its employees, especially in the design team, could never have conceived of such a thing in their time designing 5th edition seems a bit of a stretch. So again, I'm going to look it up a bit more, and depending on what I find I'll either do it, or I won't. If I find the rules to be reasonable in that usage, then I'm not going to not use the ability just for the sake of playability, but that's just me.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

king_mob
10-07-2008, 21:30
So that means that my Space Marine on a bike that falls back in your player turn and then has to rally (automatically) cannot Turbo Boost in my player turn either?

Homer

Good question.

Fall back moves are involuntary, whereas the new rulebook states that "a unit falling back can attempt to regroup by taking a Regroup test in the Movement phase just before they move."

(Pausing to wonder why someone wouldn't want to regroup....)

Any "attempt" is a voluntary action, so no, you can't turbo-boost in your turn according to RAW... unless you were a Space Marine, whose ATSKNF Regroup is automatic and therefore imposed on him rather than implicitly chosen by him.

Ugh. It's hairy.

Nexto
10-07-2008, 21:39
@Stezerok: The point is that im not using my imagination to construct some very strange scenarios out of made up rules but that allowing psykers to use powers in-->out and out-->in vehicles implies very very strange situations which suggest they clearly didnt consider this. Maybe they even thought it would be clear bc in 4th you couldnt do it ... wouldnt be the first glitch they made ;)

But to your argument. The rulebook is available in its final state for some time now and the discussion we had involved ppl who read the rules very seriously (e.g. looking for glitches to exploit :D ;) ) and there's really no part in the rulebook which specifically allows to use psypowers without los in vehicles... but on the other hand the only part regarding "doing stuff" in vehicles is in the fireport section which says u need said fireport to (quotation from rb):

" A fire point is a hatch or gun slit
from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle
can fire (or use a psychic power)
"

If you want to be picky, this could even imply that you cant use psychic powers in vehicles at all if theres no firepoint.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-07-2008, 21:49
Can units move at all when they re-group?

Its been a long time since I played 40K but I thought units counted as having moved but had to remain stationary after they rallied.

EDIT: Had look in 4th edition book and that's definitely what it says. Has this been removed or are you dancing RAW circles round each other needlessly?

Ixe
10-07-2008, 23:06
When the unit embarks, it is
removed from the table and placed aside, making a
note or otherwise marking that the unit is being
transported (we find that placing one of the unit’s
models on top of the transport works well!). If the
players need to measure a range involving the
embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is
measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.[/I]




"If a psyker in a transport can still meet all of the criteria for making psychic powers, and the transport does not subject the psyker to any of the given restrictions, then therefore the psyker is allowed to make his psychic powers from within the transport."

I think it's pretty clear (IIRC) that the criteria for using fortune is being within 6" of the intended target at the start of the turn. No other criteria are listed. In other words, you need to be able to measure range from the unit to its target. So if it's a skyleaped swooping hawk (that got its hands on Fortune somehow), no go, because it can't measure range. But if it's a seer in a transport, then you're all good because it has a point of reference to measure 6", which meets the sole criterion.


Its not clear if psykers can use their powers when in a serpent. You can only assume that they are allowed to use powers because it doesnt say they cant.

But if you try to argue that way, u also have to accept that they can be subject to psychic powers which require no line of sight.


I think your first statement does not follow. It explicitly says that all you need to Fortune is to be within 6" (IIRC). If you meet the sole criterion, it's not a case of "it doesn't say I can't." It's a case of "it says I can."

I agree with your second point. I think anyone who disagrees with you is a hypocritical scumbag who isn't at all interested in playing fair, but only wants to grab as much power for themselves as possible. It's completely illogical if they can use a non LOS power inside a vehicle, but it can't be used on them. It makes absolutely no sense. Either they can use them, and be the target, or they can't use them and can't be the target. Nobody gets it both ways, because that would be utterly insane.

So, Doom the guys inside the tank after it moved Flat Out, then blow up the tank... Fun :skull:

Gonka Koff
10-07-2008, 23:32
Thanks to the new shooting rules, it looks like you need a larger council so you can allocate wounds to plain warlocks before you have to roll any saves for farseers or warlocks with important powers.

The new rules don't differ so much compared to 4th torrent of fire thing. The most valuable model will be just as probable to catch wounds as before.

king_mob
10-07-2008, 23:46
Can units move at all when they re-group?

Its been a long time since I played 40K but I thought units counted as having moved but had to remain stationary after they rallied.

EDIT: Had look in 4th edition book and that's definitely what it says. Has this been removed or are you dancing RAW circles round each other needlessly?

I wouldn't call it needless - I want my bikeseer to be Fortuned and McSpeedy, but I can't now. And it's probably RAI as much as RAW.

Gazak Blacktoof
11-07-2008, 00:08
My point was it doesn't matter what the turbo boosting rules say if you can't move after having re-grouped.

king_mob
11-07-2008, 00:13
My point was it doesn't matter what the turbo boosting rules say if you can't move after having re-grouped.

Fair enough, and it's pretty much the same in 5th: if you Regroup you can't move again in the Movement phase.

afshinbb
11-07-2008, 04:18
who cares about casting psychic powers in vehicles its cheesy anyway. just get out to do it or do it before you embark. but over all i thind seercouncil is better because destructor templates now are better, add all possible victims before wounding as opposed to wound with one destructer then wound who is left.

Ixe
11-07-2008, 05:36
I don't appreciate having legal and sensible tactics called cheesy... It's one thing to talk about building your entire army just so your opponent can't have a fair game, I'm willing to call that cheese. But a unit using its own power on itself? Umm... what?

Regardless, that's a good point. Even if farseers can't use powers inside of a vehicle, mobile seer councils have a definite boost thanks to the new flamer rules. However, if you can't use powers inside a vehicle, you'd be a lot better off on bikes with a rerolling 3+/4++.

Tigerguy
11-07-2008, 07:43
When the unit embarks, it is
removed from the table and placed aside, making a
note or otherwise marking that the unit is being
transported (we find that placing one of the unit’s
models on top of the transport works well!). If the
players need to measure a range involving the
embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is
measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

This would suggest that abilities and psychic powers can be used while embarked on a transport.

I think this is the most important bit of the rules to support using fortune or doom from inside the vehicle.

While I can respect the arguement allowing Fear of the Darkness to affect units inside transports, I cannot agree with it. There are other cases of abilities only working one way and not the other. For example, I can have a unit in cover, shooting out of it, so that the target does not get a cover save. But the target unit shooting back would be shooting into cover. One side gets the cover save, the other does not. In the case of FotD, the squad inside the transport would be screened from the power by the vehicle. In addition, I don't know of any rule that allows the passengers, especially in a closed-top vehicle, to be directly affected by a power or ability.

In addition, simply assuming one can use a psychic power to affect a unit in a transport solely on the idea that psychic powers can be used from inside the transport is not supported by any statement that I can find in the rulebook. You know what they say about those that Assume.:D

Overall, even if it is ruled that I cannot use psychic powers from inside the transport to affect units outside it, I would like to be able to fortune my unit inside the transport with the farseer also inside the transport. That alone would go a long way in making my units more resilient.

The_Dragon_Rising
11-07-2008, 08:47
new flamer rules.

Am i missing something? what new flamer rules?

BDA
11-07-2008, 08:47
Equipping all your warlocks differently is in fact a very good idea cos if one of them fails 3 wounds then he is the only one removed and the other 2 failed wounds are just wasted =D
It is more time consuming but quite a good way to protect your units =D

Though there are limits on powers as you can no longer cast two shooting powers in the same turn.

Nexto
11-07-2008, 09:54
In addition, I don't know of any rule that allows the passengers, especially in a closed-top vehicle, to be directly affected by a power or ability.

Thats true but you also dont know any rule which allows units inside transports specifically to use psychic powers. So if you assume you can just do it then, your opponent can also assume to just use his power inside your transport. It's absolutely the same situation or, in other words, the same glitch ;)


In addition, simply assuming one can use a psychic power to affect a unit in a transport solely on the idea that psychic powers can be used from inside the transport is not supported by any statement that I can find in the rulebook. You know what they say about those that Assume.

Well but from which line do you get the idea to use psychic powers from inside the transport to the outside in the first place? There's none to support that. Thats the problem here.

As much as i would have loved to use my council with a wave serpent, i think i wont do it now until this gets FAQ'ed. Maybe it will be allowed to use powers solely in transports but not in-out or out-in. So fortune'ing your council would work, but fortune'ing your serpent from inside or using fear of darkness won't be.

I'll wait for the faq...

Doomseer
11-07-2008, 10:10
I think Seers are better in 5th, they're definitely no worse!
I can't wait for an FAQ to settle the can I/can't I Guide/Fortune whilst embarked on a transport and Psychic power followed by Turboboosting. Nobody I have played has found it inconceivable to do either so far.

Bring on the FAQ!

Bathfinder
11-07-2008, 10:50
No, turbo-boosting prevents any voluntary actions during the turn outside of turbo-boosting.

Fortune is used "at the start of the Eldar turn", so it's obviously during the turn, and thus you can't turbo-boost if you plan to use that power (or any other Farseer powers for that matter).

Turbo boosting prevents actions during the turn, but does it say anywhere that using psychic powers prevent turbo boosting? If nothing says that you cant turbo boost because you did something else before, then the "do nothing" rule probably cant undo things done before.

The_Dragon_Rising
11-07-2008, 12:44
I think Seers are better in 5th, they're definitely no worse!
I can't wait for an FAQ to settle the can I/can't I Guide/Fortune whilst embarked on a transport and Psychic power followed by Turboboosting. Nobody I have played has found it inconceivable to do either so far.

Bring on the FAQ!

Well seeing as that the Ork FAQ states that their psykers still can use psychic powers when embarked it seems only logical that eldar can do the same.

Ixe
11-07-2008, 13:58
Equipping all your warlocks differently is in fact a very good idea cos if one of them fails 3 wounds then he is the only one removed and the other 2 failed wounds are just wasted =D
It is more time consuming but quite a good way to protect your units =D


I'm pretty sure you can't do that. Each person needs to have one hit allocated. Then you roll for each guy's wound one at a time. You don't get to put all the wounds on the same model if he keeps saving. That's why it's easier to pick of sergeants and such, because if a model is different from the rest of the squad, you have to roll his wound seperately.

king_mob
11-07-2008, 17:53
Turbo boosting prevents actions during the turn, but does it say anywhere that using psychic powers prevent turbo boosting? If nothing says that you cant turbo boost because you did something else before, then the "do nothing" rule probably cant undo things done before.

It doesn't have to say psychic powers prevent Turbo-Boost. The Turbo-Booster USR says: "Controlling their bike at such speeds takes all their concentration and skill, however, so they cannot move through difficult terrain, shoot, launch assaults or execute any other voluntary action in the same turn."

It doesn't matter that Fortune happened a priori to the Turbo-Boost; by choosing to use Fortune you forfeit your chance to boost, since you cannot abide by its rules.

Kirika
11-07-2008, 18:37
I always thought you couldn't cast psychic powers in transports in 4th. Hence mounting the seer council on jetbikes instead of a wave serpent because you could fortune the whole jetbike squad.

If you can cast fortune from inside a tank then the seer council on foot mounted in a wave serpent sounds pretty good as it is slightly cheaper then mounting all of them on bikes.

Seer councils seem to increase in effectiveness if you can cast psychic powers in tanks.

Big question is can you cast psychic powers inside a transport in 5th edition?

The other problem with seer councils is they are a large point sink and are not scoring in 5th edition.

Stezerok
11-07-2008, 20:36
While I can respect the arguement allowing Fear of the Darkness to affect units inside transports, I cannot agree with it. There are other cases of abilities only working one way and not the other. For example, I can have a unit in cover, shooting out of it, so that the target does not get a cover save. But the target unit shooting back would be shooting into cover. One side gets the cover save, the other does not. In the case of FotD, the squad inside the transport would be screened from the power by the vehicle. In addition, I don't know of any rule that allows the passengers, especially in a closed-top vehicle, to be directly affected by a power or ability.

I actually really agree with the argument for Fear of the Darkness. I think it would suck if it were used on me, but I also think its awesome to think about. The idea of a group of guardian becoming so overcome by terror and grief, that they begin wailing, and clawing at themselves and each other as they cannot escape their worst fears from within their pressurized coffin.

But aside from the visual, and fluff aspects of it, the ruling holds to be legit. If you suggest that the vehicle blocks the enemy from making it's power, but that it doesn't block your powers from reaching out at the enemy, then that I would consider cheezy. I mean as far as cover is concerned, it's really completely unrelated. For starters the requirements for shooting and the like are completely different. And second the ruling is that cover would normally provide it's bonus both ways (much like what we're saying with Psychic powers) but that there is an exception called the 2" rule. An exception that has no equal in the likes of psychic powers and so cannot be used to justify powers only being able to go one way. Basically we've said that the rules have nothing in them prohibiting the use of powers both ways, and all of the requirements can still be met when used in this way. But then you've stated that this isn't true, but cannot provide a rule to justify it. "The squad inside would be screened from the power by the vehicle" really doesn't cut it by itself. You need to be able to show us where the rulebook says that to be the case...


In addition, simply assuming one can use a psychic power to affect a unit in a transport solely on the idea that psychic powers can be used from inside the transport is not supported by any statement that I can find in the rulebook. You know what they say about those that Assume.:D


We're not assuming anything. We're saying that either transports do not affect the process of a psychic power, or they do. We say they do not, because they do not explicitly prohibit it, and they also do not interfere with the requirements of the power. This being proven as such, to then suggest that powers only work one way, we must ask, why would that be so? What rule says that they can only work one way? The difference between our statement, and yours, is that ours says "we can do something because the rules do not prohibit it's use in that way" but you are saying "we can't do something" but you have no reason as to why that is so.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

EDIT: There is one thing I pointed out that perplexes me though... We say that psychic powers require a test, and they require a target, and they require that you are "on the board". In this case they don't require line of sight. So since vehicles do not prohibit a test, and do not some how make targets not exist, and they do not remove the unit inside from the board, then powers that don't require line of sight can be used from inside vehicles. And likewise, powers can be used on units inside said vehicles.

So then with Vibrocannons, they require a ballistic skill test, and they require... a direction more than a target... and they require that you are "on the board". But they don't require line of sight. So does that mean that a vibro shooting at a transport, will affect the unit inside? After all what is prohibiting it from doing so? And if this is held to be true, the problem can be extended to Indirect Fire weapons since they can fire without LoS. And I've never heard of a rule saying that weapons "must" target the vehicle, if they could somehow hit the unit inside....

Nexto
12-07-2008, 02:46
Indirect fire wont work because only models touched by the template would be subject to it and since the template doesnt touch the models, you cant hit them.

Vibrocannon is difficult, i dont have the exact wording in front of me, i will look it up later.

Ixe
12-07-2008, 02:56
I actually really agree with the argument for Fear of the Darkness. I think it would suck if it were used on me, but I also think its awesome to think about.

While I think you could use FoTD on units inside tanks (under the rules I've been quoted), I also think it would not do anything. Units inside a tank cannot move on their own without disembarking. In order for FoTD to work, you'd need to invent a new rule that, when forced to fall back while inside a tank, a unit first automatically disembarks. But since there is no such rule, it's a nullity. They fail morale, thus they fall back. But they are unable to fall back because they have not disembarked, and cannot do so. Therefore, might as well not bother rolling morale.



So then with Vibrocannons, they require a ballistic skill test, and they require... a direction more than a target... and they require that you are "on the board". But they don't require line of sight. So does that mean that a vibro shooting at a transport, will affect the unit inside? After all what is prohibiting it from doing so? And if this is held to be true, the problem can be extended to Indirect Fire weapons since they can fire without LoS. And I've never heard of a rule saying that weapons "must" target the vehicle, if they could somehow hit the unit inside....

I think there are rules for what happens to people inside of a vehicle when the vehicle gets shot. I don't have the rulebook, but I'll bet 100 Monk-heigh souls that the rules say: units inside of transports are not hit by shooting which hits the transport. And no matter how you slice it, vibrocannons and barrage weapons are shooting.

Stezerok
12-07-2008, 04:33
While I think you could use FoTD on units inside tanks (under the rules I've been quoted), I also think it would not do anything. Units inside a tank cannot move on their own without disembarking. In order for FoTD to work, you'd need to invent a new rule that, when forced to fall back while inside a tank, a unit first automatically disembarks. But since there is no such rule, it's a nullity. They fail morale, thus they fall back. But they are unable to fall back because they have not disembarked, and cannot do so. Therefore, might as well not bother rolling morale.

while I see what you are saying, I don't agree with your logic. The rules just state that a unit that fails this morale, must fall back, and that if it is impossible to fall back, then the unit is destroyed. That is all the rulebook says. So as we've decided that the unit inside is a legit target, and there's no rule prohibiting them from taking morale inside a vehicle, then they must fall back should they fail, and will therefore be destroyed.


I think there are rules for what happens to people inside of a vehicle when the vehicle gets shot. I don't have the rulebook, but I'll bet 100 Monk-heigh souls that the rules say: units inside of transports are not hit by shooting which hits the transport. And no matter how you slice it, vibrocannons and barrage weapons are shooting.

I should surely hope there is such a rule, or else this whole train of thought on psychic powers and transports could lead to some serious crap. In which case I will feel bad that I even partook in this lol. So hopefully somebody can find the rule you are referring to and make me feel a lot better...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Ixe
12-07-2008, 04:37
Yeah, I'm just guessing myself. I'm not going to agree or disagree with what people say here until I hold the 5e rulebook in my own hands. What you get on a forum is selective quoting, and you can't be sure that people aren't missing anything until you check yourself.

Stezerok
12-07-2008, 04:41
Indirect fire wont work because only models touched by the template would be subject to it and since the template doesnt touch the models, you cant hit them.

Vibrocannon is difficult, i dont have the exact wording in front of me, i will look it up later.

Ah good to see we have something as far as ID weapons go...

@Ixe: Yea. Very true. I too can't wait for my own rulebook... my local store just told me my ordered copy was just delayed until next week... :cries:

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Ragewind
12-07-2008, 05:20
After seeing this thread the other day I put together 8 Locks/Eldrad and Yriel today in a game Vs Nidzilla + tons of Genestealers. This combo just ATE the other army, the only time I lost units was to shooting/ they just destroyed anything in CC, and I stuck mine in a Wave Serpent with Star Engines + Vectored Engines.

The_Dragon_Rising
12-07-2008, 07:37
After seeing this thread the other day I put together 8 Locks/Eldrad and Yriel today in a game Vs Nidzilla + tons of Genestealers. This combo just ATE the other army, the only time I lost units was to shooting/ they just destroyed anything in CC, and I stuck mine in a Wave Serpent with Star Engines + Vectored Engines.

Ill be trying 6 locks eldrad and yriel either today or tommorrow, also in a serpent.

Ill feedback with results.

The_Dragon_Rising
12-07-2008, 17:57
As said above- i tried the 'seer council' today at 1000pts against daemons, in total well over half of my army.

By the end of the game they had killed a greater daemon of nurgle, 2 units of 10 deamonettes and a unit of horrors, whith eldrad also contributing to the battle in that he saved two pathfinders (fortune re-roll) and effectivly killed the greater daemon of slaanesh by getting two wounds through with re-rolls (doom).