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Misfratz
28-10-2005, 18:55
This is simply to require a leadership test for the Ratling Gun to stop rolling more dice. I would call this "a leadership test to restrain shooting" so can be thought as similar to a leadership test to restrain pursuit.

The reason for this is that although the concept of the ratling gun is fun [do you want to keep on rolling dice and risk a double?] the reality is that the risks quickly come to outweigh the benefits and so the risk is rarely taken. This consequently makes Ratling guns far too reliable.

This change would have the added benefit of diminishing the returns of multiple Ratling Guns as it would be harder to keep them all within range of the superior leadership of the army general. Basically the 4th and 5th Ratling Guns will be less reliable than the 1st and 2nd since they will be testing on a lower leadership.

I think that this is a change that is nicely in the skaven character and doesn't simply "nerf" the ratling guns. I'd be interested to hear what people think about it [particularly Skaven generals] and whether anyone would be interested in playtesting it.

The main downside with the change is that it could add quite a lot [more] dice rolling to the Skaven shooting phase.

I had thought of modifying the Ld test by the number of dice already rolled minus one. So if you wanted to restrain after two dice you'd have a -1 penalty, but I thought that would maybe be too complicated...

Sandlemad
28-10-2005, 21:14
I like it.

Rules wise it does add a fair chunk of dice but considering skaven magic and such, that wouldn't make a huge differance. To the skaven player anyway. How many dice are too many?:)

Fluffwise, its perfect. I suspect that most of us would be reluctant to stop firing a minigun once we start (dont deny it!:D ) and considering these are paranoid rat men, well...

Gazak Blacktoof
28-10-2005, 21:38
So if you want the ratling gun to stop firing you take a leadership test and if you fail you must roll 1 more die before the firing ends?

That would be nicely in character and make it less controllable, you couldn't guarantee anything with it then which is as it should be for the amount of points you pay for it which is the same amount as the uncontrollable spawn for chaos.

An alternative would be just to make the misfire table nastier, so that any doubles have some negative effect rather than just jaming the gun.

DeathMasterSnikch
28-10-2005, 21:49
This will just result in them being deployed near a high leadership character. Good thing is at least a high LD character could take up a hero slot therefore one less engineer.

Gotreksbrother
28-10-2005, 22:27
eh..if a weapon team can use its parent units LD within 3 inches you dont need any characters within range...they will almost always have LD 8 or better anyway because of the parent units LD, so this rule, while fitting the background, isnt effective at all at reducing the reliability of the ratling gun.

I´d make ratling guns shoot like Ogre Leadbealchers, but you can roll 1 or 2 Artillery dices (if you roll 2 you add both scores together) and then roll to hit using the gunners BS (no penalties), and if any one is a misfire, you roll on a misfire table like the current one, but if both are misfires you roll two dice on the misfire table and use the lowest result.


its easy, fast and not so reliable as you have to roll to hit, and you still have the alternative to risk more...

gondarion
28-10-2005, 23:00
I think the ratling gun needs much, much more to be balanced. Like this:

-Must roll to hit, perhaps beginning at 4+ with skirmishers/solitary targets being the only modifier

-When attempting to stand and shoot, a ratling gun team must take a LD test. If failed, they must shoot with maximum dice.

-Ratling gun reduced to 50 points

kd7svh
29-10-2005, 00:24
I would like to see the RG be a legal target for both missile fire and charge attacks.

Gabacho Mk.II
29-10-2005, 07:45
Our group brainstormed, tinkered, shared our thoughts and qualms, and finally came up with the following modifications to the RG. We have since used it, with all sides/parties agreeing to its changes:


- Must always roll 3D6 [no more, no less]... doubles rolled still apply.
- S3 per shot.
- 1 Ratling gun per 1,000pts rounded up [1,500pt armies can field up to 2]
- same cost
- same rolling method [does 3D6 shots at S3, etc]




Please understand that this change concerning the RG was with a few other modifications applied to the Skaven army. To this date, all 4 Skaven players are still gaming using this modifications above, as well as a number of others to the Skaven armylist.

The Judge
31-10-2005, 10:23
What about simply upping the pts to 75 and having to declare the number of dice rolled before rolling? the biggest problem I have is the player only rolling 1 or 2 dice when shooting a small target...

I like Gabacho's ideas as well.

Lainer
31-10-2005, 10:53
Or how about making it a special choice? It would need to gain a bit more survivalability though, to compensate for the loss of the parent unit rule.

Darkest Apostle
04-11-2005, 00:10
What about simply upping the pts to 75 and having to declare the number of dice rolled before rolling? the biggest problem I have is the player only rolling 1 or 2 dice when shooting a small target...

I like Gabacho's ideas as well.

This is the general concensus of opinion in my local GW. At the moment, this is what happens:- you roll one dice, if its a 1 or 2 you automatically roll another because whats the worst that could happen, you cant fire. If the original is a 5 or 6, then thats a good number of shots anyway so you stick with those 5 or 6 shots. I have never seen a ratling gun misfire on a dbl 5 or 6, no-one takes the risk.

Wintersdark
04-11-2005, 00:25
Same here. Ratling guns are the single most reliable war machine in the game - even moreso than bolt throwers because they will ALWAYS score at least one hit if you feel so inclined.

They will NEVER misfire on a 5-6 on the chart simply because the skaven player won't roll again if he gets one of those.

To me, the easiest, simplest way to deal with Ratling Guns is:

Player declares number of dice to fire with before starting rolling

and/or

If doubles are rolled, roll ANOTHER D6 to determine the result of the misfire, using the current chart.

spikedog
04-11-2005, 03:09
I am probably the only one on Warseer who thinks there doesn't need to be any changes to the Ratling gun.

When I play with a RG (Which is rarely as I prefer WFT) I will always start with at least 3 dice and usually 4. I think the Ratling gun only becomes a problem when you are playing in tourneys (In which case it is everyman for himself) or playing against a crappy opponent. We all know what to do when playing a crappy opponent, don't play him again.

If a true Skaven player uses a RG then they will play it like I do. So next time you play someone who only rolls one dice at a time or stops after getting a 5-6 bring into question his Skaven-ness and suggest he goes back and re-thinks his army selection.

IMO this game is as much fluff and playing an army as it should be played in character as it is winning.

But then again this topic will keep coming up again and again until they do make changes so maybe GW should just change it so that people will be happy.

Let the flaming of Spikedog begin !

night2501
04-11-2005, 03:48
I like dthe original idea ^^, maibe they start cheking with LD5 for the first dice then 6 for the second and so on (ld7 for the thir dice, Ld8 for the fourth LD9 for the fifth and LD 10 for the sixth dice) , and the is always the chance the rat just didnīt know when to stop and try rooling 7 dices XD or something like that, it would be fun ^^ more tha anithing it would be fun ^^

Wintersdark
04-11-2005, 14:49
Ok, off topic, but what's the deal with the carets? The ^^'s?

night2501
04-11-2005, 15:43
^^U

well you could say they are like emoticons, I m more used to do them with the keybooard rather tha nuse the ones of the forum ^^

Wintersdark
04-11-2005, 20:45
Ooookay, but things like :), :(, and :P are done with the keyboard. Sure, you can have the forum replace them with graphics if you want, but they ARE traditional emoticons. Little smily faces, etc. And they are rather obviously that too.

What's ^^

or ^^U

?