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Sidstyler
10-07-2008, 02:50
Disclaimer: This is a thread for discussion, if you have nothing worth contributing then please don't bother posting. No "I hate Tau" posts. I also apologize if this has been discussed before, this is my first Warseer thread.

With that said, it seems to me that Tau just rub a lot of people the wrong way. If you could change the Tau list, how would you "fix" it and make it both balanced and fair, but still keep it viable without raping any established background? Remember, this is how you would "fix" the list, we're not removing them from the game.

Personally I think getting rid of the jet pack rule and making crisis suits regular jump infantry would be a good start. I think it would be a lot less annoying and make Tau players think carefully about how to move their suits.

razormasticator
10-07-2008, 02:54
Get rid of those ****** looking Kroot models and give them their own CC unit. Maybe the equivelent of Storm Guardians but in Fire Warrior form?

Or maybe do a CC version of the stealths and change the name?

I dont know, but I love the way the Tau look, but really HATE the kroot and the Tau's dependence on them for CC troops.

gojira316
10-07-2008, 03:06
Removing the Jet Pack rule would be a bad idea since the suits rely on constant reposition and movement in order to keep them out of CC. Having Jet Packs allows to suits to keep range AND stay out of assault.

Kroot are neccessary to the Tau as the Tau do not believe CC to be an effective means of waging war. Sending the Kroot into assault allows the Fire Warriors to reposition and respond once the assault is over.

As far as I'm concerned the Tau don't need to be "fixed" but they could use to minor tweaking in order to allow them to withstand assaults better. With the rumour that Space Marines will be able to pass or fail morale and sweeping advance checks automatically the Fire Warriors should have a similiar rule in order to keep them out of assault. Possibly something having to do with Bonding Knives.

starlight
10-07-2008, 03:16
I don't think anything in the Tau line needs *fixing*...


However, I dislike the 'Fish style tanks, so I'm looking for alternatives, as well as their allies, who I prefer to replace with *counts as* Tau models. I simply like the uniform look of an all Tau force.:)

Drogmir
10-07-2008, 03:41
I think the background needs changing more than the list itself.

Dyrnwyn
10-07-2008, 03:43
Tau don't need 'fixing.' Alot of the complaints that arise are simply because Tau are one of the three armies whose playstyles test the morale of opposing players, rather than units. Successful Tau tactics boil down to denying targets to the opponent, which of course, creates frustration, because stuff is shooting you, but you can't shoot back, either because of range, intervening terrain, or stealth fields. Necron armies create alot of frustration in opponents because of they don't stay dead, and their tank ignores all your special penetration gimmicks. Eldar Armies create alot of frustration in opponents who can't take the tanks down because of holofields, and the subsequent safe delivery of the contents of a Falcon can make all the difference in a game.

Sidstyler
10-07-2008, 03:54
...well, I know it's early yet, but still, not what I expected so far.


I think the background needs changing more than the list itself.

I'm curious to hear anything, really. So long as, like I said before, it's more than just "lolz kill Tau".

zanotam
10-07-2008, 04:03
Improve the models, add gue'la officially, and give them more options. The current 40k aim of 'give them less'...er...I mean 'streamline', is stupid. Adding more kroot units, more vespid units, and more human units. That's what Tau need.

Edit: I LIKE their background. Just because YOU don't like happy flower communists and Mecha/anime/disparaging comment looking stuff doesn't mean other people don't.

Drogmir
10-07-2008, 04:06
...well, I know it's early yet, but still, not what I expected so far.



I'm curious to hear anything, really. So long as, like I said before, it's more than just "lolz kill Tau".

Well quite a few people complain about how they haven't had a significant putback in terms of fluff. But for me, it's a combo of both background and personal dislike of imagery.

Background- For 40K things are dark, gritty, and hopeless. Suddenly the Tau arrive who seem to be living angels of some sort. People complain about Communism and Caste System but everyone knows they have been put there by Games Workshop to be 'The good guys" and that's somewhat irritating.

Imagery- You have to stay with me on this one.
it seems to me they are essentially "Japanese Aliens in space!" with other "Asian" features! (Caste System, Communism). Seeing how I have a huge distaste for Anime, Manga, and other Japanese whatnots around that sector .I don't like the Tau as a result (So sue me, I don't like their look :mad: ).

Now I'm not saying get rid of them, hell they can stay for all I care. I only want their background to be more in tune with the horribleness of 40K. And you couldn't catch me playing them unless they were renegade Tau and I modified them to have a non mecha look.

Sidstyler
10-07-2008, 04:28
Improve the models, add gue'la officially, and give them more options. The current 40k aim of 'give them less'...er...I mean 'streamline', is stupid. Adding more kroot units, more vespid units, and more human units. That's what Tau need.

Edit: I LIKE their background. Just because YOU don't like happy flower communists and Mecha/anime/disparaging comment looking stuff doesn't mean other people don't.

Keep in mind that I didn't mean this to be a real "wishlist" thread. While I do want gue'vesa, tetras, and all manner of other goodies in the next update (A BETTER-LOOKING CRISIS SUIT KIT PLEASE), I'd really like it if people could stand playing against me as well. I mean there's no point in buying and painting an army only to have everyone refuse to play you.

If there's something genuinely wrong with the list, I'd like it to be fixed. I want everyone to be happy, though realistically that's impossible. :p

I like their background too, but like others I am also a little annoyed at how they always seemingly come out on top. Like in the Medusa campaign that many people complain about, if they get beaten it should be represented realistically, instead of being made to look like a victory. Now granted, I don't want my army to be turned into a race of cripples that can't shoot their way out of a paper bag, but still.

But I think a big dose of reality could be good for them. It would go a long way towards making them fit in better if their naivete got beaten up a little bit. I like embittered Tau. :p

loveless
10-07-2008, 04:38
Add in some Demiurg (if the Demiurg don't get their own book, I mean).

Streamline the wargear section...yes, give it the 5th ed "No Wargear page" - it would make the book far more attractive to read.

Give a few more HQ options - preferably different suit styles for the Commander.

starlight
10-07-2008, 04:46
Embittered Tau...are called Farsight...


Seriously, if people don't want to play any given army, the problem is in a mirror, not on the tabletop.:( It sounds like people want the easy win, rather than having to put some thought into how to use their armies and actually *earn* a victory.:(

The Tau Empire list *is* balanced and it *is* fair. My objections are entirely cosmetic. Personally I think the Tau list is great and I look forward to finishing my army.:)

Inquisitor Engel
10-07-2008, 04:50
Background- For 40K things are dark, gritty, and hopeless. Suddenly the Tau arrive who seem to be living angels of some sort. People complain about Communism and Caste System but everyone knows they have been put there by Games Workshop to be 'The good guys" and that's somewhat irritating.

The Tau Empire is not some bright beacon of hope and those that think so really take everything at face value. They're not reading the tidbits, not looking between the lines.

It is brighter than the Imperium, but the Eldar are a more positive force in the Galaxy than the Imperium if you DON'T read between the lines. If you don't look at their motivations, they're all elfy and nice

The Tau are just as callous and manipulative of other races as everyone else, it's just they're much, much better at hiding it than anyone else. Are they overtly 'nice' in their attempt to turn other races to their control? Yeah, but Hitler said he only wanted to unite the German speaking peoples of Europe.

Outward motives are rarely indicative of inner motivations.

Read Xenology and you'll see what I mean. There's a lot of implied things there, so much it's impossible to see their place in the galaxy and it's not as a shiny beacon of hope, it's the sharp edge of someone else's sword.


Imagery- You have to stay with me on this one.
it seems to me they are essentially "Japanese Aliens in space!" with other "Asian" features! (Caste System, Communism). Seeing how I have a huge distaste for Anime, Manga, and other Japanese whatnots around that sector .I don't like the Tau as a result (So sue me, I don't like their look :mad: ).

Communism isn't asian and the Tau aren't communist. We don't have any evidence on personal property of the Tau. We know they share some things, tools and the fruits of their labours, but that's not to say they don't have personal property in the vein of true communism.

You're not the only person who dislikes the anime-inspired look of the Tau but there's a significant break in imagery outside of the Battlesuits, even XV25 Stealth Suits are more akin to Halo's Hunters in size and shape than any anime I'm familiar with. I will agree that it's DIFFERENT but the clean, angular lines are something distinctly sci-fi to my eye and not necessarily anime.



The Tau are a valuable point of reference in 40k. We do not know how morally ambiguous and morally bankrupt the Imperium is unless you have an overtly righteous foil. They provide perspective of what good COULD be, but not necessarily what it is. Like I said, there's more to the Tau than meet the eye.

Firaxin
10-07-2008, 04:56
I think the background needs changing more than the list itself.
QFT.

In fact, I think a few things in the tau codex could be cheaper pts-wise.

It's really just their fluff. And this is nobody in particular's fault, but all the tau players I know personally are really really arrogant and make out like the tau will have conquered the Imperium in the next century. Which obviously won't happen.

starlight
10-07-2008, 04:57
...there's more to the Tau than meet the eye.



OMG!!! :eek: Tau = Transformers?!? :eek:




Sorry, had to say it. :p



That aside, Engel has some good points. The Tau have never been the *good* guys, just the ones with a better PR machine...:p

Kyrolon
10-07-2008, 04:57
The key to a good game vs Tau is probably adequate terrain. The games that have embittered my friends against them have all been tournament games (none of us play Tau...yet). In all the cases so far the game had about 6 little terrain pieces (just enough to hide the crisis suits). The results were a foregone conclusion with in one case a 1500 pts marine army, and in the other a 1500 pt Eldar army wiped out after 3 turns of tau shooting and two of their own turns. The Strength 5 30" range basic rifle of the Tau seems wildly underestimated by Tau players (especially the 30" range).

Now...these games may have gone the same against almost any gunline army, but when the Tau infantry can ALL kill vehicles up to armor 11 stranding the occupants in no man's land when there's no cover, well they don't really need to fear close combat then do they?

If you take the same armies, but add more terrain, the tau can't shoot everything. If even half the opposing armies managed to shoot back, and the HTH elements made it to the Tau lines both would have been vastly different games.

The problem may not be with Tau. It may be with the way the game is played some times.

Dan

starlight
10-07-2008, 05:01
Well Tournaments *are* know for playing with far less than the suggested 25% terrain.:(


Following that simple rule wipes out a *lot* of the complaints I've heard about 40K over the years.

Drogmir
10-07-2008, 05:03
The Tau Empire is not some bright beacon of hope and those that think so really take everything at face value. They're not reading the tidbits, not looking between the lines.

It is brighter than the Imperium, but the Eldar are a more positive force in the Galaxy than the Imperium if you DON'T read between the lines. If you don't look at their motivations, they're all elfy and nice

The Tau are just as callous and manipulative of other races as everyone else, it's just they're much, much better at hiding it than anyone else. Are they overtly 'nice' in their attempt to turn other races to their control? Yeah, but Hitler said he only wanted to unite the German speaking peoples of Europe.

Outward motives are rarely indicative of inner motivations.

Read Xenology and you'll see what I mean. There's a lot of implied things there, so much it's impossible to see their place in the galaxy and it's not as a shiny beacon of hope, it's the sharp edge of someone else's sword.


You're not getting what I'm saying, they're presented by Gamesworkshop as the most hope filled race that can exist in the 41th millennium.Though they're "evil" because of their caste system and their manipulative leaders. But they aren't really that dark. The worse thing they have is "re-education camps" as opposed to wiping out worlds just cause there might be some heresy passing around.

Communism isn't asian and the Tau aren't communist. We don't have any evidence on personal property of the Tau. We know they share some things, tools and the fruits of their labours, but that's not to say they don't have personal property in the vein of true communism.

You're not the only person who dislikes the anime-inspired look of the Tau but there's a significant break in imagery outside of the Battlesuits, even XV25 Stealth Suits are more akin to Halo's Hunters in size and shape than any anime I'm familiar with. I will agree that it's DIFFERENT but the clean, angular lines are something distinctly sci-fi to my eye and not necessarily anime.

China adopted Communism, but of course there are many different interpretations of Communism seeing how the real model was never put into action. But I don't think the Tau's art system remind me of clean,angular line sci -fi. Tau remind me more of Gundamn and other Mechas, Clean, Angular Lines fall more into Mass Effect and their imagery.

The Tau are a valuable point of reference in 40k. We do not know how morally ambiguous and morally bankrupt the Imperium is unless you have an overtly righteous foil. They provide perspective of what good COULD be, but not necessarily what it is. Like I said, there's more to the Tau than meet the eye.

But that still doesn't excuse the Tau from having pretty bright Background flavor compared to the rest of the universe. The worst they can do is "Join us or die!" while the rest of the universe is essentailly "You can choose to Die or DIE!!!!:D"

TheMightyBrain
10-07-2008, 05:22
But that still doesn't excuse the Tau from having pretty bright Background flavor compared to the rest of the universe. The worst they can do is "Join us or die!" while the rest of the universe is essentailly "You can choose to Die or DIE!!!!:D"

"Join us or die" is a classic line :D You can't slate them for that.

I don't feel that there is anything wrong with the Tau in any shape or form.Ok, vespids could have better stats to be worth taking...but other than that.


As for people who think they don't fit with the universe, I ask them this:

Q: Aren't the Tau a reflection of the fledgling Imperium following the Emperor's rise to power?

clanfield
10-07-2008, 05:23
there is some thing very odd and very dark in the shadows of the tau empire perhaps something ctan even the poor old tau have been sucked in like the necrontyr of old

the codex is fine the models i like but there back ground needs more expanding particulkarly things like the kraken era bits

starlight
10-07-2008, 05:25
Shush you! (TheMightyBrain) No spoiling their fun, they aren't old enough to remember back when the Big E was up doing his thing, leading humanity to greatness, unfettered by all this hokey religion and nonsense. Back then, most of the relics actually worked without a half hour of chanting and such. We just pushed the button and got on with killing things in the name of a united Imperium. :p

TheMightyBrain
10-07-2008, 05:27
Karken era?

ehlijen
10-07-2008, 05:59
I've always seen the Tau more of a "Parody Colonial British Empire...in Space!". You've got your wealthy leaders and all the 'lesser' population groups that are kept in place using patriotism. It's the same "we have achieved all this technology therefore we are superior" attitude.

And in that way GW got the background allright. The only difference is that while the british empire was the top dog for much of its existance, the Tau aren't.

Slavery and exploitation of the powerless. Subjugation of other species on the charge of them being less evolved and therefore less worthy. Doesn't really sound good at all to me. The Imperium would be doing the same thing if they didn't have enough humans to do that all to already.

Moress
10-07-2008, 06:00
If I could *Fix* Tau, I would make the AP on the rail gune AP2, does anyone realise how fraking incredible that weapon is in 5th ed??? a S10 gun hitting you that gets +1 to its damage roll, GG everyone's vehciles (Except Falcons, they don't get hit lol)

The whole 30" range on basic firewarriors is also stupid. Statistically a marines shooting marines have the same chance to kill the other marines as a tau does shooting a marine, but it hits 6" further than the other races. Being S5 wouldn't be as bad if they brought down the range. So either bring down the strength to 4, or reduce the range by 6".

Another thing I don't like is that wargear that allows them to regroup below 50% Not many races have this ability, so why should the Tau, a race to scared to fight in CC, have this crazy ability?

The front armour on the hammerhead being 13 is also a little excessive IMO aswell since a preditor has the same armour, but a worse weapon, and does not benefit from SMF.

Jet packs, god I hate these things. Maybe put the range of movment on them on a D6 always? (Or blow up, completly killing the user causing instant death and hitting everything in 2D6 range with S4 on a D6 roll of 2+)

Lastly their Fluff, ARG! I can't stand their fluff. I love evry race in 40k, with the white hot passion of 1000 burning suns. Except the Tau. I almost don't even consider them part of 40k unless I'm playing them because of their horrible fluff!

Well, that was my mini rant...

zanotam
10-07-2008, 06:22
Sheesh people, what's up with the fluff bashing? You don't like it, we get that, but some of us DO like their fluff. I mean the idea of a bright shiny force for good with a shadowy unknown force secretly working behind the scenes is a great idea. A more streamlined sci-fi (not anime!) look is always nice, and the fact that they can take ideas that they couldn't work into full armies, but were still good and add them to the Tau is a hugely awesome deal. On a side note, the shooty-shooty death Tau only work if you aren't playing with enough terrain. EVERYONE benefits from lots of terrain (Yes, even Tau), but some armies benefit from a completely flat, featureless desert more then others. Of course, I do play Eldar and have a small Tau force, but I'm planning on also picking up a small IG/Inquisition mixed force as well so I'm not exactly hugely biased. I just find it annoying when people start bashing the Tau fluff when they obviously haven't even read one of their codices all the way through let alone both of them. (Yes, I know, welcome to the internet.;))

Moress
10-07-2008, 06:34
While I respect your opinion, the reason people hate the Tau's fluff is just the reason why you like it. It's because we feel as though it's too "softcore" for a place like 40k and should be more gritty and dirty. I personally think it would make them alot cooler, even if they kept everything the same (well, maybe make the models seem a little more evil, they seem a little "happy" to me compared to everything else in 40k)

zanotam
10-07-2008, 06:43
While I respect your opinion, the reason people hate the Tau's fluff is just the reason why you like it. It's because we feel as though it's too "softcore" for a place like 40k and should be more gritty and dirty. I personally think it would make them alot cooler, even if they kept everything the same (well, maybe make the models seem a little more evil, they seem a little "happy" to me compared to everything else in 40k)

But it isn't THAT "softcore." They've got some mysterious, potentially evil power, working behind the scenes and helping them out that no one besides the Etherals and maybe a few extremely high ranking of the other castes even know about. They even have their own renegades and they HAVE been bloodied quite a few times for such a brand new race, but they just don't care and want to keep going. Plus, they remind me a lot of the Borg, and I'm not even a Star Trek person (I've seen maybe, 3, 5 episodes) and I know those guys are bad ass. The Tau are like a reverse Oreo, soft, white and creamy on the outside, but hard, dark, and crumbly on the inside.

For an example, just look at how they wage war. They have a very brutal, take no quarters fighting style, meant for winning. They may pull back, but that's just because they have an evil, nasty trap waiting for you. They'll fight dirty to win, and not care because as far as they're concerned, you're either with us, or against us.


Edit: I love this place. Unlike in many places on the web, two users with a little over 100 posts between them can have a real, meaningful, debate and be listened to here.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
10-07-2008, 06:44
The Tau army list is fine, 5th edition already nerfed jet packs with true line of sight and skimmers too. On the other hand the no consolidation into new units, and true line of sight for all their guns, increases their options so it's not just the typical mechanised army that's viable anymore. They just need the 4+ cover save on tanks for 5 points FAQ'ed somehow and they are set.

TheOverlord
10-07-2008, 06:56
Urm... neuter them? :D

Gutted
10-07-2008, 07:07
What I think the Tau need is more fleshing out of their fluff. The current fluff is pretty damn good, has a grityness to it and is open to lots of speculation. What I want to see is more stories about tau (painting them in both a positive and negative light) and more information about their day to day lives.

starlight
10-07-2008, 07:11
Start writing...


No, seriously - start writing. :) Create some stories in the S&A Forums, submit to BL's anthologies and keep putting out the stuff you'd like to see. GW has used fan fiction in the past, so I'm sure they'll keep doing so...as long as it's good stuff...:p

Sidstyler
10-07-2008, 07:15
The whole 30" range on basic firewarriors is also stupid. Statistically a marines shooting marines have the same chance to kill the other marines as a tau does shooting a marine, but it hits 6" further than the other races. Being S5 wouldn't be as bad if they brought down the range. So either bring down the strength to 4, or reduce the range by 6".

Personally I don't like either idea, the lack of heavy weapons more than makes up for the buffed-up gun in my opinion, but if I HAD to pick I'd take range. The 50% hit rate is bad enough, S4 with BS3 is too much.


I would make the AP on the rail gune AP2

I could live with that...S10 AP2 sounds fair.


Another thing I don't like is that wargear that allows them to regroup below 50% Not many races have this ability, so why should the Tau, a race to scared to fight in CC, have this crazy ability?

I gotta say, this is the first time I've ever seen someone complain about bonding knives and call them "crazy". :eyebrows:


The front armour on the hammerhead being 13 is also a little excessive IMO aswell since a preditor has the same armour, but a worse weapon, and does not benefit from SMF.


Armor 12 does make more sense. It's basically the same as a devilfish tank anyway (though I did see a badass conversion representing the higher armor value posted on ATT). If you're going to do that though I'd like to see at least 10 points knocked off the cost (which would also make it the same as a devilfish), since the defensive weapon nerf means that railgun is the only weapon I'll ever be able to fire with anymore.

Unless they plan on making BCs S4, anyway.


Jet packs, god I hate these things. Maybe put the range of movment on them on a D6 always? (Or blow up, completly killing the user causing instant death and hitting everything in 2D6 range with S4 on a D6 roll of 2+)


That was another idea I had, they could make them regular jump infantry or change jet packs to a D6" move in the assault phase. Of course that would mean the iridium armor upgrade in the codex would need to be changed since it already does that.

I don't understand "blow up"...personally I thought you were being sarcastic at first. That's overkill and I don't really agree with that at all, a squad of three suits isn't that hard to put down (if you can hit them), with a rule like that all you'd have to do is cause four wounds and bam, all the suits will probably die from one round of shooting.

Changing the way JSJ works is enough if you ask me. All you want to do is give the other guy a chance, make it a little more difficult to completely shield yourself from returning fire. What you were proposing sounds Orky to me. :p

starlight
10-07-2008, 07:24
Well the new terrain rules *have* changed how JSJ works (because it's harder to hide), so there's one down.:p

jackveneno
10-07-2008, 07:43
Wow sounds like some people just can't adjust and find a way to beat tau, sad really all it takes is some strategy and also JSJ basically disappeared in 5th edition. This is all just a little too much, the things some of you are asking seems way too extreme.

Moress
10-07-2008, 08:13
@Sidstyler: I was joking about the "Blow Up" Thing =)

@Zonatom: You have a point, The Tau fluf does have some "darkness" to it. I think though what really irks people (including me) is that they believe 40k is a land of over exageration, and it really is. 7-8ft tall super humans with two hearts, armoured skin, genitcally enhanced wearing a tank and wielding a rapid firing rocket launcher is alot to take in. SM/CSM, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Inquisition, these are just examples of races that are relentless, unlike the Tau which some people see as "Soft" even though they are known to bring down the hammer.

Let me give you a slight example. In the PC game Dark Crusade, if the Tau won, they steralized the humans and kept them under tight control so they would be safe they couldn't rise up agasint the Tau. Now if the Imperium won, these "Traiters" would most likely all be killed on the spot for even SPEAKING to the Tau.

One other reason people dislike the Tau is the fact their so new. All of the other races are pretty old (Some freaking ancient ie Necrons). They are only a few thousand years old, yet they are out there actively competing with these "Grand" races who have been on the scene long before the Tau where even walking up right, and to some people (Again, I'm one of those poeple) that just doesn't seem right.

I guess all in all it boils down to personel preferance. Alot of people, especially on this thread are divided pretty evenly on the fluff issue. Some like it, some don't. For some people the Tau fluff is a nice escape from the grittyness of 40k, while others feel it's not gritty enough.

Vandur Last
10-07-2008, 08:54
Tau dont need fixing, theres nothing wrong with them. Some dont like them but many others do.

Its like saying that since many people dont like Broccoli that we need to fix Broccoli.

Master Jeridian
10-07-2008, 08:59
The only real annoying thing about Tau for me is JSJ.

For some reason my soldiers are too stupid to shoot the giant anime robots as they coast over the treeline...

It's a game mechanic that needs the turn-based system to work, and I just can't visualise it in 'real life', I can't suspend disbelief on it.
How does a giant anime robot leap over a forest, blaze away at my army, then float back out of sight...without anyone returning fire?


That said, apparently Crisis Suits, etc. need JSJ because they are fragile otherwise. Yep, Toughness 4, 3+ save, multiple wound, Drone bullet shields with 4+ Inv....very fragile.

A few things I don't want to see 'fixed'. Give them a dedicated combat unit? Why not a vegetarian Tyranid unit? Or a pacifist Khorne unit? The list goes on. What is the point in differentiating different army styles and concepts if they all recieve contrary units to remove said weaknesses.
There is nothing wrong with Kroot, I like the models and the rules.

Funny thing is, Tau ain't that bad in combat in several situations. IG Infantry Squad vs Fire Warriors- most automatically say IG win, but it's clearly in the FW favour.
Crisis Suits are still T 4 3+ multiple wound, Str 5, etc, etc. If your opponent doesn't have a power fist, he's gonna spend several turns just slugging it out.

Of course Tau don't want to get into assault, not because they are rubbish at it, but because they happen to pack loads of powerful guns.

IJW
10-07-2008, 09:07
Well the new terrain rules *have* changed how JSJ works (because it's harder to hide), so there's one down.:p
And the way they will end up taking large numbers of dangerous terrain tests if they start or end any move in terrain...

I don't think there's anything else that needs 'fixing' for Tau. Game-wise they are balanced and reasonably flexible in style, fluff-wise they have a bit more internal logic going for them than most things in 40k. ;)

Richter Kless
10-07-2008, 09:12
I am personally not buying the whole īread between the linesī part.
The designer notes quite clearly state that the Tau were meant to be the good guys as to appeal to the kind of player who doesnīt want a morally amiguos (sp) force.

If GW wanted to make clear that the Tau have some darker side, they would have told us. They have never been known for beeing subtle and just love writing about that kind of stuff.
Did you read the Daemon, Inquisition and Chaos Space Marines codex? Thereīs some ****ed up stuff happening there and we constantly get flat out told how peolpe die by the millions in the most gruesome ways.

I mean, steralisation? Thatīs tame man. The Imperium would have put them all in concentration camps and have them gassed to death. Chaos would happily throw them on their bloodsoaked altars or use them in blood orgies and fighting pits.

And one renegade force. Oh dear, what ever shall we do. (sarcasm)
The Imperium has roughly lost 50 Space Marine chapters, thousands of Guardsman regiments, thousands of Inquisitors and hundreds of systems to Chaos.

And where the Imperium immediately sends an all out penitent expedition to hunt down the traitor, the Tau just kinda let Farsight be.


Now I wonīt say I dislike the Tau, because I donīt. But Tau players should not trie to hide behind some intrigue and manupilation and call it dark. All the politicians of our nations use that and I donīt think they are grim or dark.

And as a last note, there is nothing more satisfying than beating the snot out of the good guys.

Warp Zero
10-07-2008, 09:13
Sheesh people, what's up with the fluff bashing? You don't like it, we get that, but some of us DO like their fluff.

Yeah, I disagree with all the fluff bashing. How boring would it be if the Tau felt the same as other races/armies? One of the things I like about the 40k setting is the different variety of factions. How they've done Tau is just how I like it. Its different enough to give me something new but still remains within the confines of the 40k "feel". Or at least my interpretation of the "feel of 40k".

As far as rules. My regular opponent is a Tau player. His army is nasty. Its something like two HQ slots. Commander with 2 Crisis Suits each, all with two drones each. Two Elite group of six Stealth Suits each. One minimum group of Firewarriors, one big group of like 16 Kroot. Then backed up with either two Broadsides with two drones each or a Hammerhead and some misc. stuff. Sometimes its 3 groups of 3 Crisis Suits each (2 drones each) with 2 groups of 6 Stealth suits each. Ugh.



Tau don't need 'fixing.' Alot of the complaints that arise are simply because Tau are one of the three armies whose playstyles test the morale of opposing players, rather than units. Successful Tau tactics boil down to denying targets to the opponent, which of course, creates frustration, because stuff is shooting you, but you can't shoot back, either because of range, intervening terrain, or stealth fields.

Then even when you have terrain to hide behind, he throws Smart Missiles at you. Ergh!


To me, a lot of the balance issues with Tau will be fixed with 5th Edition. My friend will be severely gimped with taking the low Troop choices so he can min/max on suits. That type of list building will get him in trouble in 5th. This type of list building is exactly why GW did what they did with the Troop capturing objectives rules.

For the most part, Tau are fine now with 5th. The only thing I think is off, if I had to pick something....is the Kroot. Now that woods are 4+, Kroot ....are crazy good for crazy cheap points when sitting in woods holding a nearby objective while "going to ground". Slightly cheaper than a Eldar Guardian, Equiped with an "almost" bolter equivelent. 3+ Save in the Woods. 2+ while going to ground. Huh? :eek:

Oh...wait, another thing I'd tweak. Smart Missiles. To punish the other opponent for using terrain to avoid the immense firepower of the Tau, you're gonna give 'em Smart Missiles? I say lower Smart Missiles to STR 4. Nothing drastic, just slightly less annoying. More like solid harrassment fire rather then "yet another really deadly" Tau thing hitting you ....again! When you're hiding!

IJW
10-07-2008, 09:16
Now that woods are 4+, Kroot ....are crazy good for crazy cheap points when sitting in woods holding a nearby objective while "going to ground". Slightly cheaper than a Eldar Guardian, Equiped with an "almost" bolter equivelent. 3+ Save in the Woods. 2+ while going to ground. Huh? :eek:
'Break out the flamethrowers, chaps, there's something nasty in the woodshed!'

Warp Zero
10-07-2008, 09:22
'Break out the flamethrowers, chaps, there's something nasty in the woodshed!'

If you can survive the journey to get within range. Sure. :D Also, you might be playing an army that doesn't have Flame Throwers.

borithan
10-07-2008, 09:26
Armor 12 does make more sense. It's basically the same as a devilfish tank anyway (though I did see a badass conversion representing the higher armor value posted on ATT).
Yet the Predator has the same chassis as the Rhino, and has an even bigger jump up in armour, and your not complaining about that? And what about the idea that the armour may be thicker on the inside of the vehicle, rather than the outside? Frankly the daftest thing about the tau vehicles (even though I like the overall look) is the huge intake vents which would be such an obvious and vulnerable target.



That was another idea I had, they could make them regular jump infantry or change jet packs to a D6" move in the assault phase. Of course that would mean the iridium armor upgrade in the codex would need to be changed since it already does that.
So nerf the entire thing that is meant to be special about the Tau battlesuits? Frankly, standard jump suit movement makes little sense for the Tau anyway, as it is meant to get you into contact with the enemy as soon as possible (almost all jump pack infantry aside from the tau are assault units).



Changing the way JSJ works is enough if you ask me. All you want to do is give the other guy a chance, make it a little more difficult to completely shield yourself from returning fire.
Well, with true line of sight that problem is now sorted. It will be very hard to hide completely. In fact, aside from against heavier weapons, terrain will no longer really give the Tau battlesuits any real advantages. They have a 3+ save. Terrain will give them a 4+... so most weapons they would have the same protection standing 18" in front of the unit in the open as they would hiding behind terrain (though I guess it would make it harder to assault them).



That said, apparently Crisis Suits, etc. need JSJ because they are fragile otherwise. Yep, Toughness 4, 3+ save, multiple wound, Drone bullet shields with 4+ Inv....very fragile.
Well, not all units will have drones at all, let alone shield drones. I only have shield drones on my one Monat suit (as otherwise it would die in too clicks). And without drones the most wounds you will have in a crisis team will be 6. So, as tough as a space marine, with the same armour save... yet fewer wounds than a Space Marine unit. Better guns, yes, more maneuverable, certainly, but if they were left in the open they would die quickly, just as a lone unit of Space Marines will.



Funny thing is, Tau ain't that bad in combat in several situations. IG Infantry Squad vs Fire Warriors- most automatically say IG win, but it's clearly in the FW favour.
Crisis Suits are still T 4 3+ multiple wound, Str 5, etc, etc. If your opponent doesn't have a power fist, he's gonna spend several turns just slugging it out.
And what happens if it is a unit of fire warriors? T: 3, WS: 2, I: 2? Ok, yes they have a 4+ save, but that's all that is in their favour.



Of course Tau don't want to get into assault, not because they are rubbish at it, but because they happen to pack loads of powerful guns.
With the Battlesuits at least that is the exact point. If you have battlesuits in combat with Imperial guard you have some rather expensive models doing something they are not good at (WS 2), tying up their weapons and not doing anything terribly useful (except tying down one unit of imperial guard... out of how many on the board?).

In almost all situations Tau are either **** in combat or wasting their time there.

And fluff wise: The Tau are the good guys? Soft? Ok... Maybe in the 40k scheme of things, but these guys are more ruthless than any civilised country has been on the Earth for a good 150+ years. Doesn't any one find it dark that the Tau are the closest you get to good guys? These are a people who in modern terms would be condemned for committing war crimes, who have a rigid social system (it is not communist. The idea of serving the Greater Good is a common one throughout human societies), and frankly the freakiest thing is that they seem to actually be biologically suited to it.

Yes, they were meant to be the closest thing to good guys, and they are idealists, and that is frankly one of the reasons I like them. They are more recognisable in their motivations to us modern people than the humans even are. But they frankly have quite some way to go before they are actually good guys.

I think a bit of light in a universe makes the darkness darker... especially if that light is as twisted as the Tau are.

Bregalad
10-07-2008, 09:37
I am a bit tired of all the "we have no problem with a new army, as long as it has the exact same background and stats as Space marines/Chaos Space Marines" posts. Please respect the thread starters wishes and don't make this another Tau bashing thread.

I don't feel that Tau need a lot of fixing except for a good Apocalypse unit, that can compete with Titans and Baneblades (we got a Knarloc for Christ's sake! Standard tanks are better!). More allies are always welcome as new Kroot units. New plastic battlesuits looking like FW ones or DoW commander suits would also be fine.

MrBigMr
10-07-2008, 09:40
I would fix the Tau like I would fix my dog...


But seriously, I don't find much to be done. Tau are like the Dogs of War, having a variety of different races as troops rather than the one. That's their idea, their theme, their style. That's how they role, and Homie wouldn't play that any other way.

One think I would hope for is that the Ork Fighter upgrade was modified so that it would give the Tau the old boost of +1WS and +1I. I can understand how Preferred Enemy is more fluffy, but the fluff also says the Farsight enclave puts more emphasis on close combat in general, not just Orks. If they united the two, gave them Orks as Preferred Enemy (which I believe in 5th only gives you a re-roll on hit or wound) and the bonuses, then I would be quite happy.

Also, allies could be spread about a bit. Kroot houds and Krootoxes could become their own units. 3-10 Krootoxes as Heavy, 5-20 Hounds with 5-10 herders as Fast (with fleet), etc. Maybe. Gue'vesa should become official troops as well, especially as the fluff allows it. Current lineup is good, giving you a cheap speedbumb (36pts. for 6) etc. They should also be allowed to have at least a Devilfish.

Last but not least, drones should get more weapon options. Squad drones should be like the squad special and heavy weapons platforms, giving Tau units more customisation. Replace TL carbines with a plasma rifle for Xpts.; burst cannon for Xpts.; missile pod for Xpts.; fusion blaster for Xpts.; etc.

Doomseer
10-07-2008, 09:55
They really don't need fixing, it's the negative attitudes toward them, (as well as several other armies), that need looking at!!

MajorWesJanson
10-07-2008, 09:55
I've always thought that if the Tau did get a Titan equivalent (result of fighting nids and need to hold territory could be a reason to use it over a manta or air power) it would look and act almost exactly like the Mammoth MkII from C&C Tiberian Sun. Tan quadreped walker with two heavy railguns, a chin gattling gun (burst cannon), and missiles for AA defense. It would make a great apoc unit. May do a custom of it just for fun.

MiketheFish
10-07-2008, 09:58
Indeed - the Tau are a guerrilla fighter army. Similar to Wood Elfs in WH Fantasy. Both armies are disliked by a number of people. Why? Because in the real world, it's easy to dislike guerillas because they're very existance is designed to cause frustration - attacking the enemy, and simply not letting them attack you. This is BOUND to cause some ill will. It doesn't mean the army is unbalanced, it simply means the army is working in the manner in which it was intended to.

Nothing much should be changed as it would completely gut the Tau's fighting style, which is a dynamic and fun fighting style to master and yes... play against. Honestly the "haters" just need to relax a bit. It's just freaking toys on a gameboard for chrissakes. Guerillas exist in real life, and they are a viable and interesting army to play with/against on the tabletop

Warp Zero
10-07-2008, 10:40
I don't feel that Tau need a lot of fixing except for a good Apocalypse unit, that can compete with Titans and Baneblades (we got a Knarloc for Christ's sake! Standard tanks are better!).

A Tau super-heavy would be sweet.

Or something like the Tau equivelent of this Gundam mech (but Tau looking):

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3384/gp03dek3.png


http://yasseranas.blogspot.com/2007/08/gp03s-dendrobium.html


Hmmm....I should go VDR one..... :evilgrin:

P.S. I still think Kroot need tweaking. But that's about it, everything else is pretty balanced. Either turn the +1 extra in woods advantage only available for when they "go to ground" (thus a total of +2) or make their rifles Heavy 1. I mean, they should be either using them like hunting rifles (hiding and staying still in bushes to shoot) or using them in hth combat. I don't like how they have something nearly as good as a Bolter. Odd considering they're there for hth back-up, but they make a good shooting unit. I'm leaning more toward making the rifle Heavy 1. The woods thing is super advantageous, but only on forest tables. A well organized tourny should have a wide variety of terrain. If not....if its every table with default green grass with some woods....then oh man....

Mad Doc Grotsnik
10-07-2008, 11:09
Kroot are there as interceptors. Their lack of armour and weedy Toughness means that once the fists start flying, they won't last long, but their multiple attacks and good strength means the enemy won't have it their own way.

If there guns were made worse, I'm not sure I'd bother taking them, as Tau depend more on Firepower than they do on Kroot. If Kroot were a pure and simple combat unit, I'd prefer more guns.

But the 'Fieldcraft' rule needs a very slight change. Just change the name to 'Not Stupid'. Hiding behind a tree is all fine and well. But hiding up a tree is a marked improvement. Provided you can resist the required giggling and sniggering as your gormless enemy walks under you.....

borithan
10-07-2008, 11:13
Odd considering they're there for hth back-up, but they make a good shooting unit.
Well, while they may serve that function on the tabletop, I think it is the codex that suggests that the Tau really try to include forces that have certain similarities to their own style of fighting, rather than try and find things that do things they cannot do. They actively dislike close combat fighting, and the reason given for them including Kroot is more about their sneakiness and infiltration skills, which are sort of similar to Stealth Suits, rather than because they are good at hand to hand, while the Tau are not.

True, to me it did feel a way to justify why such an un-Tauy unit found itself into the army... though I don't actually know why "as they are no good at/don't like getting involved in hand to hand they use the Kroot" is not justification enough.

Gutted
10-07-2008, 11:22
Start writing...


No, seriously - start writing. :) Create some stories in the S&A Forums, submit to BL's anthologies and keep putting out the stuff you'd like to see. GW has used fan fiction in the past, so I'm sure they'll keep doing so...as long as it's good stuff...:p

I would take you up on that but to be honest I'm not a good writer and I don't have a strong enough sense of how Tau society works outside of their basic military, social structures. I should probably buy that Fire Warrior novel but I'm hesitant to buy anymore RPG/Video Game/Miniture fiction because its rarely up to the standards of the story telling in the books.


I am personally not buying the whole īread between the linesī part.
The designer notes quite clearly state that the Tau were meant to be the good guys as to appeal to the kind of player who doesnīt want a morally amiguos (sp) force.

If GW wanted to make clear that the Tau have some darker side, they would have told us. They have never been known for beeing subtle and just love writing about that kind of stuff.
Did you read the Daemon, Inquisition and Chaos Space Marines codex? Thereīs some ****ed up stuff happening there and we constantly get flat out told how peolpe die by the millions in the most gruesome ways.

I mean, steralisation? Thatīs tame man. The Imperium would have put them all in concentration camps and have them gassed to death. Chaos would happily throw them on their bloodsoaked altars or use them in blood orgies and fighting pits.

And one renegade force. Oh dear, what ever shall we do. (sarcasm)
The Imperium has roughly lost 50 Space Marine chapters, thousands of Guardsman regiments, thousands of Inquisitors and hundreds of systems to Chaos.

And where the Imperium immediately sends an all out penitent expedition to hunt down the traitor, the Tau just kinda let Farsight be.


Now I wonīt say I dislike the Tau, because I donīt. But Tau players should not trie to hide behind some intrigue and manupilation and call it dark. All the politicians of our nations use that and I donīt think they are grim or dark.

And as a last note, there is nothing more satisfying than beating the snot out of the good guys.

You forgot the whole possible mind control/influance thing going on with both the Etherals and Vespids using Tau technology. A rigid caste system with clear inequity, canibalism, exploitation and an aggresive expansionist agenda. + the strong implications that they are merely a biological weapon thats ignorant of its purpose.

Sure they might as "extreme" as the Imperium or Chaos but the bad is hardly subtle. Their probably on par with the Eldar in the scheme of things.

Besides everyone know Orks are the real good guys

Reinnon
10-07-2008, 12:33
In light of 5th edition, here are the changes i would make:

1) JSJ: people hate it, but without it - crisis suits don't really work. Crisis suits should keep jet packs in the same way terminators should keep terminator armour - its just what crisis suits do. A choice has to be powerful, or else its just not worth taking.

With the changes to area terrain, JsJ is alot less powerful anyway.

2) Improved HQ choices: As it stands, commanders are the only really worthwhile choice, ethereals are very rarely worth the points you pay. Furious charge? What a useless ability for the tau army! As it stands, the ethereal is normally a liability but i'm really unsure what to change to make the guy better

3) Vespid: Give them a 4+ armour save and they will become so much better, or an increased range on their guns so they don't get butchered by marines with boltguns.

4) Tanks: A special upgrade that makes strength 5 weapons defensive would be amazing, for a hefty points cost naturally. In 5th the hammerhead has become a pillbox and warfish is sadly no more :(. The armour value for hammerheads is fine: it doesn't have the special "get out clauses" of the falcons such as spirit stones and holofields.

5) Firewarriors: i would like to see railrifles being offered to fire warriors as a special weapon, as i can see their uses outside of pathfinders

6) Special Chars: get rid of the space pope, while he has gotton slightly better in 5th ed with the changes to stubborn, he is still fairly crap and overall weakens the army. This guy needs a serious overhaul to make him more useful, as atm his best use is in apoc simply to walk him into a vortex grenade and **** off the enemy tau army.
Farsight: never meant to be a balanced char, but i would like his combat trainign rule to be slightly more useful - if your in combat with orks your fire warriors are 9/10 dead.

7) wargear: the special equipment could be improved in scope to add some varity into the tau army.

8) Pulse Rifles: with the changes to defensive weapons and run - 30 inches is now even more important as you are going to see more fire warriors hiding in terrain. This doesn't need to change.

==Me==
10-07-2008, 13:10
You do realize that you can make Hammerheads and 'fishes count as Fast vehicles, so move 6" and fire everything, right?

The Tau operate fairly well, ruleswise. They're unique in their playstyle and the models look nice, but their background makes ==Me== unable to play them. They need to have their naive outlook on the galaxy shattered: Imperial crusade, civil war, Ork Waagh!, Tyranid Hive Fleet, being used by the Eldar, hit hard by the DE (good way to reintroduce them as a real force). I would love to see how they reconcile their ideals with the "real world". Would they become more oppressive while denying everything with their propoganda machine? Would they drop the act and be willing to do anything to survive and grow? Or would they refuse to admit defeat and slowly be crushed?

I don't want to see them destroyed or even severely weakened, as I said I love their style and models. I just want some perspective. The Tau Empire is practically insignificant, and once they decided to join the big boys' table they understand how horrible the galaxy is.

Now, apart from the background, I want to see more alien auxiliaries. No other army makes use of different races and it's a great way to bring out new models and introduce new races. Also, more love for the kroot. Take the Kroot Merc list and add to the Tau army (Gnarloc riders, Master shaper/shaper council, Hunters, Headhunters, etc) to flesh out the kroot or allow for a purely kroot army. Also let shapers select different wargear. For the Tau themselves, Ethereals need to be useful, more drones can be included, and Tetras can be added from FW.

Reinnon
10-07-2008, 13:47
i am perfectly aware that tau tanks can move as fast tanks - but the change from 12 inches and fire everything to 6 inches and fire everything is a massive difference.

fishpaste
10-07-2008, 13:48
[QUOTE=starlight;2766766]I don't think anything in the Tau line needs *fixing*...
[QUOTE]

agreed. The Tau are fine, even under 5th edition rules. They don't need to be made more like other lists, and certainly CC isn't a necessary option thereby.

I only wish suits were cheaper (dollars not points) :D

Inquisitor Engel
10-07-2008, 15:11
there is some thing very odd and very dark in the shadows of the tau empire perhaps something ctan even the poor old tau have been sucked in like the necrontyr of old

If you read Xenology it's VERY obvious who the Tau were uplifted and manipulated by... ;) If you can't get a hold of it:

The Eldar.

The Q'Orl section all but confirms it. The darker Tau bits are in the notes on the Ethereal.

Kahadras
10-07-2008, 15:15
Personaly I feel that Tau only need a few tweaks and for GW to get over the fact that they are a relativly small Empire in the 40K universe. They don't have to be lauded so much in the fluff as being unbeatably good. Just seeing them have a couple of major setbacks would be nice. The fact that they are the so called 'good guys' of 40K should mean that their fluff is one long success story. I tend to think that GW feels the need to justify them too much.

Kahadras

Grand Master Raziel
10-07-2008, 15:22
Q: Aren't the Tau a reflection of the fledgling Imperium following the Emperor's rise to power?

:eek: Whu? Bu? I...you...but...BLASPHEMY! Burn, heretic, burn! ;)


The only real annoying thing about Tau for me is JSJ.

For some reason my soldiers are too stupid to shoot the giant anime robots as they coast over the treeline...

It's a game mechanic that needs the turn-based system to work, and I just can't visualise it in 'real life', I can't suspend disbelief on it.
How does a giant anime robot leap over a forest, blaze away at my army, then float back out of sight...without anyone returning fire?

Maybe they move really fast and are hard to draw a bead on? Seriously though, I do understand the aggravation JSJ causes. I've run afoul of it myself, and it's no fun at all to deal with. The only particularly effective way of dealing with it is to lock the unit in question in close combat, and the only way you're going to pull that off is if you happen to have something inherently fast in your army, like bikes or jump pack troopers. Even if you happen to have such a unit or two in your army list, any Tau player with a room-temperature IQ is going to make that unit his top-priority target. And, you're right about JSJ requiring a turn-based game in order to work, and so therefore I can see how that would jar suspension of disbelief.

On the other hand, if the rules for Jet Packs were changed so Crisis and Stealth Suits couldn't JSJ anymore, the ranges on suit-mounted weapons would have to be extended quite a bit, because currently the maximum range envelope on most suit-mounted weapons is 24", with a preferred envelope of 12-18". They're designed to get in, sting, and get out. If they can't do that, then they'd need longer range weapons to compensate.

Personally, I don't think the JSJ mechanic is a problem in a reasonable army list. Where it gets really obnoxious is when a player min-maxes, taking a pair of minimal 6-man Fire Warrior Squads so he can cram in as many Crisis and Stealth Suits as possible, with maybe a few Hammerheads or Broadsides for tank-killing. Of course, min-maxing is the bane of every army list. If it weren't for obnoxious WAAC players, we wouldn't have needed toned down Codices: Eldar, Chaos, Space Marines, etc. 5th edition may induce some of those players to play more balanced, Troops-heavy lists, but on the other hand they may just play victory denial. How the metagame will change remains to be seen. In the meantime, if one accepts the premise that the main balance-problem with Codex: Tau Empires is Suit-Maxing, then taking steps to limit or eliminate that seems like a logical choice. Perhaps Tau players could be required to take at least one unit of Fire Warriors for every battle suit unit he wants to deploy. The battle suits are there to support the Fire Warriors, not the other way around, so that would be a logical, fluffy restriction. Plus, it might induce Tau players to consider using some of the less used units in their dex.

On the third hand...


With the changes to area terrain, JsJ is alot less powerful anyway.

I know that this line has been getting preached as if Moses brought it down off the mountain carved in a stone tablet, but I'm not entirely convinced. I think it's just as likely that people will start using terrain that unambiguously blocks LOS rather than fiddle around with drawing dodgy, needle-threading LOS through what would previously be considered area terrain.

On other notes:


4) Tanks: A special upgrade that makes strength 5 weapons defensive would be amazing, for a hefty points cost naturally. In 5th the hammerhead has become a pillbox and warfish is sadly no more. The armour value for hammerheads is fine: it doesn't have the special "get out clauses" of the falcons such as spirit stones and holofields.

I don't think any race should get a special vehicle upgrade that lets them circumvent the S4 Defensive Weapon limitation. Instead, we should simply start badgering GW to hike the rating of Defensive Weapons back up to S6. We can either have players of every race clamoring for exemptions to the Defensive Weapons rule, or we could simply all tell GW that we liked being able to move a tank and be able to shoot more than one weapon afterwards. This is not a Codex issue, this is a core rules issue, and should be treated accordingly.


5) Firewarriors: i would like to see railrifles being offered to fire warriors as a special weapon, as i can see their uses outside of pathfinders

I don't agree with you on this. Being able to take Rail Rifles would totally change the utility of Fire Warriors from a dynamic, air-mobile, aggressive short-ranged shooting squad to a static, sit-and-shoot squad where non rail rifle-toting FWs are ablative wounds around the RR-toters. That would make Tau play more like the Imperial Guard, or like the old-style SM gunline that no one is going to miss (or at least admit to it) when Codex: Space Marines gets updated in a couple of months. I could see Fire Warriors with rail rifles being added as a Heavy Support choice, but I don't see them getting RRs as a potential upgrade in a Troops choice.


6) Special Chars: get rid of the space pope

Noooo! :cries: You can't get rid of the Space Pope! I've been dying to play against someone who fields Aun Va! When I get the chance, I'm going to rename one of my characters "the Master Chief" and do my damndest to get that character in combat with Aun Va. Once my guy kills him, I'm going to throw my hands up in triumph and whoop, "Whoohoo! I killed the Prophet of Regret! I WIN!" :D

Fangschrecken
10-07-2008, 15:59
i wouldnt change anything gameplay wise, though adding new krrot vespid and human units sounds good. all id do is add to the fluff, specificaly a plague of some sort, wich i supose could transfer over to the rule and put a limit on tau troops, and force people to take auxilliaries

Fangschrecken
10-07-2008, 16:03
sorry for double post, one thing i owuld change, is the have it bluntly stated somewhere that tau arnmt the product of necron and/or eldar engineering. pariahs are more than enough for necrons, and all the other stuff that thye seem to be responsible for.

borithan
10-07-2008, 16:39
They need to have their naive outlook on the galaxy shattered
What is particularly wrong with them being naive? On the "Most despisded army" thread there were other people saying they didn't like that either. On the other hand I think some of the other people that really dislike their fluff, and accuse them of winning all the time (which is a rather strange thing to blame a fictuional race for) should realise how naive they actually are (yes, they may win a lot of the time they fight, at least in the battles that have been described, but in the galacy wide scheme of things they are really not that significant).

Frankly, of the things that you mentioned I think civil war is the best... particularly with the hints at the Fire caste getting bitchy about not being allowed to bopss everyone else about.



I would love to see how they reconcile their ideals with the "real world". Would they become more oppressive while denying everything with their propoganda machine? Would they drop the act and be willing to do anything to survive and grow? Or would they refuse to admit defeat and slowly be crushed?
Who says they couldn't win while retaining their ideals? Aside from 40k just being a grim game?



Noooo! You can't get rid of the Space Pope! I've been dying to play against someone who fields Aun Va! When I get the chance, I'm going to rename one of my characters "the Master Chief" and do my damndest to get that character in combat with Aun Va. Once my guy kills him, I'm going to throw my hands up in triumph and whoop, "Whoohoo! I killed the Prophet of Regret! I WIN!"
Hmm... you have just about made me vaguely see any use for him. Frankly don't like many of the newer models. The Space Pope and his bodyguard have so much useless things sticking off of them, and part of the reason I liked the Tau was for their clean lines. The idea of the Vespid I don't have a problem with, but the figures I don't like, and frankly don't have a place in my Tau army. Only the new vehicles were of any interest to me (didn't like the new stealth suits much either. the old metal ones appeal far more to me).


i wouldnt change anything gameplay wise, though adding new krrot vespid and human units sounds good. all id do is add to the Fluff, specificaly a plague of some sort, wich i supose could transfer over to the rule and put a limit on tau troops, and force people to take auxilliaries
1) Unlikely, as the route with codexes seems to be letting people be more free in what they can choose.
2) Awful idea to force people to take non-tau units. I personally don't like the look of most of the figures for the auxiliaries, and would hate to be forced to take them. Part of the reason I like the Tau is for their clean look, and frankly that is kind of spoilt by their friends. Wouldn't mind taking some human auxiliaries if they were official, but they are not yet. I do like the idea of auxiliairies, but I don't want to have to take them.

Ranger S2H
10-07-2008, 17:47
1 wish: endless possibilities.

I think there should be options to create an all tau force, including some sort of CC unit (to stick with the asian theme, samurai looking battle suits) as well as an option to create a force that consists of as many different species as possible. kroot, vespid, human, tau, maybe some orks that fight for the greater good but actually don't care as they just like fighting, and maybe some new ones. but there also should be a link between the auxiliaires and the tau technology, as in a mix with the reliability of the las, and the range and power of a pulse rifle.

for the fluff, I really like the tau as the not that bad guys. why should everything be evil in the first place? a few not that bad guys make the really evil ones look more evil. I would like to see more, may be a race with an actual democracy (corrupt of course).

Champsguy
10-07-2008, 17:51
The Tau are boring. That's what I'd fix.

If you're going to go anime with the Tau, go all the way. I'd like to see Crisis Suits with beam sabers and stuff. That could be cool.

As far as the background goes, the only problem that I have is the lack of setbacks. Every race in 40K has had serious blows dealt. The Tau have sort of had an easy time of it so far -- the only time they faced off against the Imperium, they caught a break because Hive Fleet Leviathan was hitting alongside the 13th Black Crusade. They fought a Nid splinter fleet and drove them off. Farsight owned some orks and they were able to send in enough reinforcements to bail him out. The only real setback they've had was Medusa V. The Tau need a good ass-kicking. It looks like that's coming given the Ork codex's "War of Dakka". The basically need to realize exactly how big and dangerous the universe is. Then they'll get mean and embittered by the cold, hard galaxy.

Ranger S2H
10-07-2008, 17:58
I think the ass-kicking is coming. all they need is something like stalingrad: the tau get to an important industrialised city called emperor-city and the imperial commanders will hold at all costs just because it bears the name of the boss, long bloody urban battle, the tau get beaten at the last moment, and kicked back to reality: "by the greater good, we're not invincible!"

borithan
10-07-2008, 18:04
The basically need to realize exactly how big and dangerous the universe is. Then they'll get mean and embittered by the cold, hard galaxy.
Why? I don't understand why people want to Tau to become embittered and loose their naivete.

MrBigMr
10-07-2008, 18:10
The Tau are boring. That's what I'd fix.
Any army is boring if you can't make it interesting. I find there to be plenty of potential one can do with the Tau if you just think about it.


If you're going to go anime with the Tau, go all the way. I'd like to see Crisis Suits with beam sabers and stuff. That could be cool.
All the way? I don't see GW going "all the way" with their other designs. Besides, nothing's stopping you from doing anything like that, but Tau aren't school girls in power armour. They have reasons why they refrain from CC and it's clearly stated in fluff. Sure, some Septs are more agressive than others, but in general the consensus is "what's the point of knives in a nuke fight, all you gotta do is press a button?"

MiketheFish
10-07-2008, 18:10
No kidding. Could we have maybe... ONE unique race in 40k? But no, apparently all races have to get lost in angst-filled gothic lameness.

They are MEANT not to fit. That's the whole freaking point. People. Get over it.

x-esiv-4c
10-07-2008, 18:27
I personally don't see anything to fix :)

Warboss jackjack
10-07-2008, 18:36
I'd fix da fish 'eads 'wiv my nice sharp powerklaw! On a similar not may I say that trukkboyz are the bane of tau players, they hide in cover then do a 24" tank shock into the fire warriors and the boyz hop out and slaughter the fish 'eads [oh what a beautiful sight], I think tau need some more cc stuff and need to change their attitude about kroot. Remember "Kroot fight proppa! and they look like chickens:D".

starlight
17-07-2008, 05:44
1 wish: endless possibilities.

I think there should be options to create an all tau force...<snip>

for the fluff, I really like the tau as the not that bad guys. why should everything be evil in the first place? a few not that bad guys make the really evil ones look more evil. I would like to see more, may be a race with an actual democracy (corrupt of course).

All Tau = yes please.:)

It would be interesting to see something like the Farsight Enclave go *democratic* and even further towards the *good guy* role, just to hold the mirror up to the universe... Allow crossing of the castes, with choice instead of caste determining their roles and innovation being praised... Hmmm...

borithan
17-07-2008, 08:02
It would be interesting to see something like the Farsight Enclave go *democratic* and even further towards the *good guy* role, just to hold the mirror up to the universe... Allow crossing of the castes, with choice instead of caste determining their roles and innovation being praised... Hmmm...
Well, seems unlikely, as Farsight has been hinted at being corrupted by evil forces, and the feeling I get is more like they are creating a place where the Firecaste are in charge, the Firecaste soldiers feeling they had some sort of entitlement to rule.

Of course it is up to them what they do with it.

Surgency
17-07-2008, 14:02
I am personally not buying the whole īread between the linesī part.
The designer notes quite clearly state that the Tau were meant to be the good guys as to appeal to the kind of player who doesnīt want a morally amiguos (sp) force.

Tau aren't morally ambiguous, huh? I've never actually heard that phrase before... Here I thought the whole "Join us and accept our rule or be eliminated" rule of thumb was rather gray area to begin with... And I certainly don't remember seeing any design notes saying that. Do you have a reference to back that up with? Maybe LESS morally ambigiuous


If GW wanted to make clear that the Tau have some darker side, they would have told us. They have never been known for beeing subtle and just love writing about that kind of stuff.
Did you read the Daemon, Inquisition and Chaos Space Marines codex? Thereīs some ****ed up stuff happening there and we constantly get flat out told how peolpe die by the millions in the most gruesome ways.

I think they DID tell us that they have a darker side... Maybe not as dark and brutal as the other races mentioned, but certainly there's something ominous and mysterious about the Tau, that doesn't bode well of anyone else in the area who doesn't agree with their philosophies


I mean, steralisation? Thatīs tame man. The Imperium would have put them all in concentration camps and have them gassed to death. Chaos would happily throw them on their bloodsoaked altars or use them in blood orgies and fighting pits.

Yes, but the Tau also aren't as big as the Imperium or Chaos, and can't afford to let good slave labour... err, loyal workers..... go to waste


And one renegade force. Oh dear, what ever shall we do. (sarcasm)
The Imperium has roughly lost 50 Space Marine chapters, thousands of Guardsman regiments, thousands of Inquisitors and hundreds of systems to Chaos. And where the Imperium immediately sends an all out penitent expedition to hunt down the traitor, the Tau just kinda let Farsight be.

He's a forgotten name, remembered by only a few of the older firewarriors. The other castes don't remember farsight, why waste troops hunting down someone who just doesn't exist? ;)

newbis
17-07-2008, 14:26
I think the ass-kicking is coming. all they need is something like stalingrad: the tau get to an important industrialised city called emperor-city and the imperial commanders will hold at all costs just because it bears the name of the boss, long bloody urban battle, the tau get beaten at the last moment, and kicked back to reality: "by the greater good, we're not invincible!"

That entire scenario goes contrary to Tau doctrine. The fool 'el that tried to pull that stunt would end up with a pulse shot to the head. For the greater good.

Brother Loki
17-07-2008, 15:00
I do understand the aggravation JSJ causes. I've run afoul of it myself, and it's no fun at all to deal with. The only particularly effective way of dealing with it is to lock the unit in question in close combat, and the only way you're going to pull that off is if you happen to have something inherently fast in your army, like bikes or jump pack troopers.

You can always go for enfilading fire as well - get units forward and create crossfires to deny the suits a safe haven and JSJ is a lot less effective. Don't forget, everyone can now potentially move as fast as crisis suits, given the addition of the run rule - it's going to be a lot harder for them to get away from trouble.

I don't think that any major changes are needed to either the tau rules or background, and I think they fit right in with the rest of the setting - they're reminiscient of the first human expansions during the 'dark' age of technology.

blackcherry
17-07-2008, 15:33
I cannot see any real need to change the tau list that much, though I suppose to help the haters out there of their fulff ,perhaps the background could include more of the darker aspects amongst the 'bright' bits along with how they got snubbed in a conflict (because all army books include examples of how the army got drubbed:rolleyes:)

All I would really ask for is a bit of an expansion on their culture as well as that of their allies, perhaps including a few more units from each race and giving the kroot some advantage for assaulting in woods- I mean they are supposed the be the best at attacking others in wooded terrain, yet they will always strike last due to the lack of any type of grenades?

borithan
17-07-2008, 15:59
Tau aren't morally ambiguous, huh? I've never actually heard that phrase before... Here I thought the whole "Join us and accept our rule or be eliminated" rule of thumb was rather gray area to begin with... And I certainly don't remember seeing any design notes saying that. Do you have a reference to back that up with? Maybe LESS morally ambigiuous
In the first codex I do remember there being something about them intended to be more optomistic and recognisable to us modern human beings... and I think that included something about being LESS bad... they didn't say they were good guys though.

Count de Monet
17-07-2008, 16:13
All I would really ask for is a bit of an expansion on their culture as well as that of their allies, perhaps including a few more units from each race and giving the kroot some advantage for assaulting in woods- I mean they are supposed the be the best at attacking others in wooded terrain, yet they will always strike last due to the lack of any type of grenades?

IIRC with Fieldcraft they don't count the woods as difficult, so wouldn't face any penalties assaulting into it.

Promethius
17-07-2008, 16:47
I think that the best way to fix JSJ would be to curtail the mini-maxing that goes on - honestly, I don't think many people mind facing a few suits, but when the army contains almost nothing but it gets very tiring very quickly.

I agree that the Tau need some kind of setback. They've had it too easy so far, and frankly it's getting tiring to find that every bit of fluff involving them is a victory. The war of dakka is the first proper defeat they've had so far and I'd like to see more like it. A strong Imperial defence, sizeable 'nid splinter fleet or Ork Waaagh! would be just enough to knock them back a step. It doesn't have to kill their optimism, just curtail them a bit.