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View Full Version : Slight boost in the WAAGGHH!!!



TheDirtyHippy
10-07-2008, 09:11
So, in 5th edition, the Fleet rule simply allows a unit to Assault after making a Run move.

With this subtle change, an Ork player can Run with all of his mobs (seeing how far they moved) BEFORE deciding if they should call down the WAAGGHH!! to give their infantry Fleet (as the ability is triggered at any point in the shooting phase). It's not a huge change, but I think that it's pretty cool!

I would expect that squad that rolled a 1 for Run distance would still take the wound.

static grass
10-07-2008, 09:22
I think you are reading to much into this. An honest player would declare a run or Waagghh movement. You cant roll the the die get a six and say "OOHH that's a WAAGGHH!"

IJW
10-07-2008, 09:30
I've a feeling he's right - Fleet just means that you can assault after Running. :eek:

Anaris
10-07-2008, 10:25
Not having an Ork Codex to hand but does it state when you declare a Waaagh!? i.e. Start of the shooting phase or words to that effect?

IJW
10-07-2008, 10:28
'during his shooting phase'

Azulthar
10-07-2008, 10:32
Falls under "allowed but not appreciated" for me.

Latro_
10-07-2008, 12:33
yea, neither of the two rules note when you have to declare them. Both just say in the shooting phase.

fleet just says if you have this rule you can assault in the same turn you ran. So:

So yea, you can legally 'run' and if you dont make what you estimate to be within 6", you can hold off on your waaghh move :P

Fact is it's not that much of a plus, since if you hold off and think ye not withint 6" to assault, there is a good chance the enemy is gonna counter crump you in the face in their turn.

Prob a better idea to take the situation before you think about running, is it worth the risk? if you're 12-10" away probably not. In which case, dakka dakka dakka instead!

eriochrome
10-07-2008, 13:08
I think the problem here is that before you get to roll the die you have to say "This unit is running" or else you do not get to roll the die. Since you said that the unit ran, it did not fleet or Waaggh.

Lokust
10-07-2008, 13:17
you're missing that units do not 'fleet' anymore, ever. Units run. Units with the fleet usr are able to assault after running. Orks run. If they think they're in good position, they Waaagh which gives them fleet, which lets them assault that turn. I really don't think it's a big deal for the reasons Latro mentions. When the green tide stops 7-12" away, they can expect to get ventilated by a great deal of rapid fire love.

Oberon
10-07-2008, 13:17
Either you run or you fleet, if you decide to WAAAAAGH after rolling for run, that unit ran and the next will fleet. So yes, you can WAAAGH at the end of your shooting phase, but you will just miss out the chance to fleet, having run already. Your running maneuvers don't suddenly become fleet, if you waagh afterwards.


(How many different ways there are to say the same thing? At least three, and more will come).

njfed
10-07-2008, 13:21
I think the problem here is that before you get to roll the die you have to say "This unit is running" or else you do not get to roll the die. Since you said that the unit ran, it did not fleet or Waaggh.

This.

You can't fleet until you declare a Waaggh.
You can't fleet and run in the same turn.
Ergo, once a unit has run, it can't suddenly become a fleet just by declaring a Waaaggh.

static grass
10-07-2008, 13:33
How can you roll a dice for one thing and then say it is for another?

IJW
10-07-2008, 13:36
Since you said that the unit ran, it did not fleet or Waaggh.


Either you run or you fleet


You can't fleet until you declare a Waaggh.
You can't fleet and run in the same turn.
Ergo, once a unit has run, it can't suddenly become a fleet just by declaring a Waaaggh.

Folks, you need to read the rules again!

As Lokust already pointed out, there is no such thing as Fleet moves anymore, ONLY Run moves.


you're missing that units do not 'fleet' anymore, ever. Units run. Units with the fleet usr are able to assault after running.

EDIT:

How can you roll a dice for one thing and then say it is for another?
Because it IS only for one thing. Moving d6 instead of shooting is a Run move. It doesn't matter if the unit has Fleet or not, doesn't matter if a Waaagh is called. It's still just a Run move.

Oberon
10-07-2008, 14:26
So unit did not have to be able to charge after running when running, but it has to be able to do that when it is time to charge? Run, if they ran far enough then declare that they did that with the fleet rule, and then charge? Cool.

Latro_
10-07-2008, 14:27
The reason it works is because there is no ordering to when you run or when you declare a waaaghh, they are both just 'done in the shooting phase'

So you:
1. Run
2. Declare a waaagh (unit now has fleet USR)
3. Assault.

At pt 2. you can decide not to declare a waaagh, so it would be
1. Run
2. Decide not to waaagh, do not gain fleet. Move onto next unit.

The Fleet USR is very clear that it allows a unit which has 'run' to assault in the same turn. As already mentioned this isnt really a great new option for da orks, but in some situations it might come in handy.

Generally I find the best way to get footsloggers into HTH is to attack them with fast stuff first and as the fast stuff is getting whittled down but still enaged in HTH, you back them up with the fresh mob of foot sloggers (which, in the new rules they wont be able to attack until the next turn haha)

Andyalloverdaplace
10-07-2008, 14:55
As an ork player, I'd say that declaring a WAAAGH after you learn what the rolls are leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. Orks are all about rushing in, getting committed, and hoping Gork or Mork decides to give you what you need this time. or:

If youze gits wanna play that way, go play with yer panzee armies. Dis ain't propr orky krumpin.

(wow, "spell check" lights up pretty)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
10-07-2008, 14:59
I think the problem here is that before you get to roll the die you have to say "This unit is running" or else you do not get to roll the die. Since you said that the unit ran, it did not fleet or Waaggh.

Quite so.

If your unit has run before you call the WAAAGH! it cannot then run again using Fleet.

Thus, come the assault phase, that unit cannot assault as may have ran, but at the time of movement determination of the Run, the unit did not benefit from Fleet.

IJW
10-07-2008, 15:07
Who said anything about running and then running again?

TheDirtyHippy
10-07-2008, 15:42
Not me!

Look, I'm not trying to say I can move my Orks with a Run move and then get an additional Fleet move. Because there is some confusion here's the explanation without using the word "Fleet":


1. I can roll the D6 to see how far my Orks move with the Run move.
2. After I've rolled for all of my Run moves, I can decide to kick in my WAAGGHH! special rule.
3. The WAAGGHH! special rule allows for units to assault after making a Run move.

It's not very much of a change. I've used this once so far when I would only call down the WAAGGHH! if I got a 6 for my Run move. I got the 6, putting me just in charge range (with a full 30-strong mob of Boyz and a Weirdboy, who rolled Warpath), so I kicked in the WAAGGHH! Sure it was probably not the best idea, because I only got to assault with one unit in my entire army. But it was Orks with 5 attacks each! I couldn't pass that up.

How is that not Orky? My boys were hoofin' it, found that they were close enough to get stuck in, the Weirdboy made them all crazy, so they yelled WAAGGHH! and plowed into the enemy.

Anaris
10-07-2008, 16:24
Yeah, it's been fairly well established in this thread that it's not against any rules to Run and then, having found out you got a high move from that Run, you then declare a Waaagh! and then charge.

However, it's not very sporting and is akin to players in WFB who cast a Remains in Play spell and don't put don't any kind of marker to show it, when it should be made visable.

Latro_
10-07-2008, 17:22
I fail to see how its unsporting.
Run is now a fundamental universal tennant of the game.

Waaagh and therefore fleet, is a rule which sits onto of the run rule as an exception to it.

You are perfectly allowed to use a special rule within the scope of when it can be used. In this case it can be used in the shooting phase which just happens to be the same phase run is used it.

In my head its just the same as driving upto someone in a rhino and then not getting out to do a driveby because you think you wont be within 12". Or holding back firing a one shot combi weapon as you think you're not withing 12", however if did end up within 12" i'd bet you'd still fire off the rest of the unit's guns...

its only because its in the same phase that it seems 'odd'
If run was done in the movement phase and then you chose to waagh in the shooting phase it wouldent seem odd would it? However gamewise this would make no difference.

Oberon
10-07-2008, 19:17
It is just the "i'll just run as I'm not going to make it... Hey wow, I can do it! Lets call that one a waagh instead!"-thing that is odd there. Doing one thing, and when it is suddenly more succesful than simple d6 would allow you to expect (d6, its not always "6"), then calling it another thing to get a further bonus. Sure, rules might allow it, but it does not deny the right to think it is not cool.

Latro_
10-07-2008, 19:23
Isnt that the case with any fleeting unit?
You run then decide if you think ya within 6" and then go for it.
The only difference is this is a 'one shot' fleet.

It still involves cunning range guessing. I really cant see how its unfair or unsporting in anyway.

Lokust
10-07-2008, 19:26
I fail to see how following the normal course of the rules could be construed as uncool or unfair by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, the rules are what the rules are. I can understand some people having a hard time adjusting to the change, but say a new player starts WH40K on saturday, and he starts playing orks. He reads the rules and finds nothing saying that he's supposed to declare WAAAGH first for any reason, so he does what makes sense - roll for runs before declaring. Is he a dick or a powergamer or a cheater because some players remember a time when it was different? Of course not.

The rules say what the rules say... either deal with it or play an older edition of 40k IMO.

Oberon
10-07-2008, 19:33
Well, no. Any other fleet roll is a fleet no matter how low you roll, and you pay for it, even if it won't do you any more good than the normal run. Orkses however can just run, except when they KNOW they can make it, and then (after rolling the distance) they can say that was with fleet.

While other fleeters run and then they either are or are not in charge range. Orkses run and then they can see if they are in charge range, and if they are, THEN they can say "that roll there was my once in a game "fleet" roll that I just rolled, saying it was just an ordinary run, so my 30 boyz with their warbosses can now charge".

My English fails me at this point, but somehow this ability to use ones rare abilities when they can't fail, when they originally were down to random number generators, is not what is was meant to be. Anyhow, I'll just keep silent about this when talking our local ork player, maybe I don't have to deal with this IRL. If you can't see it, it doesn't exist. You keep wondering how cool the waagh is, I'll be off to ponder if assasins are worth "it" anymore. -> :)

Ekranoplan
10-07-2008, 19:46
Well, no. Any other fleet roll is a fleet no matter how low you roll, and you pay for it, even if it won't do you any more good than the normal run. Orkses however can just run, except when they KNOW they can make it, and then (after rolling the distance) they can say that was with fleet.

While other fleeters run and then they either are or are not in charge range. Orkses run and then they can see if they are in charge range, and if they are, THEN they can say "that roll there was my once in a game "fleet" roll that I just rolled, saying it was just an ordinary run, so my 30 boyz with their warbosses can now charge".

My English fails me at this point, but somehow this ability to use ones rare abilities when they can't fail, when they originally were down to random number generators, is not what is was meant to be. Anyhow, I'll just keep silent about this when talking our local ork player, maybe I don't have to deal with this IRL. If you can't see it, it doesn't exist. You keep wondering how cool the waagh is, I'll be off to ponder if assasins are worth "it" anymore. -> :)

There are no more fleet rolls. There are only run rolls. Fleet is simply the ability to assault after running. The Ork player is not retroactively turning his run rolls into fleet rolls, but rather he is adding fleet to his run rolls.

IJW
10-07-2008, 19:52
Well, no. Any other fleet roll is a fleet no matter how low you roll, and you pay for it, even if it won't do you any more good than the normal run. Orkses however can just run, except when they KNOW they can make it, and then (after rolling the distance) they can say that was with fleet.

Again - there is no such thing as a Fleet roll in 5th edition. Just Run rolls.


However... the change in effect of rolling a 1 during the Waaagh does imply that you need to announce it before making the moves or you'd have to go back across all the units that already Ran and retrospectively make their saves. Oops. :angel:

So I'm back on the side of Waaaghs needing to be declared before any Runs are made. But it still doesn't stop it being a Run move. ;)

anglacon
10-07-2008, 20:02
sorry, but if you DO NOT declare a Waaagh, and roll the dice and move, you are preforming a "run", not a WAAAGH. You cannot retroactivly go back and say "by the way, that was a waaagh move! That is like having a marine with a power sword and a power fist, rolling to wound, and if it is a "2", saying "oh, I am using a powerfist!"


also, like the poster above me said, "what if you roll a "1".

-Anglacon

Azzy
10-07-2008, 20:16
Again - there is no such thing as a Fleet roll in 5th edition. Just Run rolls.

However... the change in effect of rolling a 1 during the Waaagh does imply that you need to announce it before making the moves or you'd have to go back across all the units that already Ran and retrospectively make their saves. Oops. :angel:

So I'm back on the side of Waaaghs needing to be declared before any Runs are made. But it still doesn't stop it being a Run move. ;)


Agreed. Bingo. Word. QFT. For sooth... et cetera.

As an Ork player, the way I have always interpreted it since I started playing "proto-5th edition" (and now with the full 5e rules) is:

1: Declare Waaagh! at the beginning of the Shooting Phase (or, at least, prior to any Run moves).
2: Roll Run move for a unit, move the unit the rolled distance (if you roll a 1 for your Run move, make an Armor Save to see if you take a wound). Repeat for each unit that chooses to run.
3: Assault in the Assault Phase.

Declaring a Waaagh! after rolling your Run move allows you avoid potentially taking wounds for rolling 1s on your Run distance. Which, in my book, is not cool.

pox
10-07-2008, 20:26
I fail to see how following the normal course of the rules could be construed as uncool or unfair by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, the rules are what the rules are. I can understand some people having a hard time adjusting to the change, but say a new player starts WH40K on saturday, and he starts playing orks. He reads the rules and finds nothing saying that he's supposed to declare WAAAGH first for any reason, so he does what makes sense - roll for runs before declaring. Is he a dick or a powergamer or a cheater because some players remember a time when it was different? Of course not.

The rules say what the rules say... either deal with it or play an older edition of 40k IMO.

to this, I say that its not a new player making a simple mistake, its veteran players looking for loop-holes in the rules, in order to gain an unfair advantage. it is my experience that players who do this are are not worth playing. if they actually did just start playing, I would explain that they were doing it wrong, and show them the relevant passages in their rulebook. this particular rule question stinks of cheating, not misunderstanding how the rule works. (as always, this is just my opinion.)

to address the rules question, its a "waaagh! movement", special to the orks.

the argument isn't about run vs. fleet, its about waaagh! movement vs. run.

for the ork rulebook:
"once per game, the ork player can declare a waaagh! during his shooting phase.
This may not normally be declared on the first turn as a proper waaagh! needs some momentum behind it. for the duration of the turn, all friendly ork infantry units have the "fleet of foot" rule (not gretchin units, they're far too weedy for a proper waaaagh!).

if a unit rolls a 1 when making this waaaagh! movement, the orks start fighting before they get to the enemy. one model from that unit takes a single wound. note that the unit may still move a single inch, and assult as normal."


so I take it from that passage that its a special move, clearly defined as a "waaagh!" move. I would expect any ork players to declare the waaagh! at any time in the shooting phase, and then roll for any units that are running, but haven't moved yet.

Insta_AxE_Toast
11-07-2008, 00:59
I think that this is bogus for a number of reasons.


1."In their Shooting phase, units may
choose to run instead of firing, immediately moving
D6" So you cannot do anything else until you run.

2. This is basically the equivalent of pre measuring for shooting which is not allowed.

3. It would totally remove the downside of the waghhhhh

vol-nz
11-07-2008, 02:02
So much for the Ork codex being 5th ed ready, there are several other issues facing orks with the new rules.

cailus
11-07-2008, 02:09
I think it's just fair play to declare before you move. Anything else is too underhanded.

Anaris
11-07-2008, 09:25
sorry, but if you DO NOT declare a Waaagh, and roll the dice and move, you are preforming a "run", not a WAAAGH. You cannot retroactivly go back and say "by the way, that was a waaagh move! That is like having a marine with a power sword and a power fist, rolling to wound, and if it is a "2", saying "oh, I am using a powerfist!"


also, like the poster above me said, "what if you roll a "1".

-Anglacon

Even better example of the point that is trying to be illustrated by the people in this thread who think that Waaggh! should be declared before rolling any dice.

njfed
11-07-2008, 12:36
I have flip-flopped on the issue...hey, maybe I should run for President of the USA!

The weirdboy can make a Waaagh! happen after another unit has already ran. So I see no problem with declaring a Waaagh! after some of your models have run. The question in my mind is once the Waaagh! is declared, how does it effect the units that already ran?

Well, the way I see it the boss or weirdboy starts the Waagh! and it spreads across the whole army. It does not make any sense to say a unit would not be effected by the battle cry just because they had already moved. Yes, there is an issue of units that rolled a '1' taking a wound, but I now support the position that units that ran would gain fleet.

IJW
11-07-2008, 12:41
The weirdboy can make a Waaagh! happen after another unit has already ran.
Ooh, good catch! I think the safest would be to leave the Run die by each Mob that Ran and rolled a one, then if a Waaagh is called/occurs, go back and roll the armour save for that unit.

Otherwise we're limited to Weirdboyz having to do their stuff before anything else in the army can shoot or Run...

Azzy
11-07-2008, 15:23
I have flip-flopped on the issue...hey, maybe I should run for President of the USA!

The fact that you admit to flip-flopping automatically disqualifies you.


The weirdboy can make a Waaagh! happen after another unit has already ran. So I see no problem with declaring a Waaagh! after some of your models have run. The question in my mind is once the Waaagh! is declared, how does it effect the units that already ran?

Ah, but the weirdboy rolls for his power "at the beginning of each Ork Shooting phase" (C:O, page 37). So this should be before any Run moves are made. ;)