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Cirion
10-07-2008, 14:00
After reading the 5th ed rulebook I noticed one thing about the perils of the warp rule, it now allows inv. saves but successful ones must be re-rolled.
How will this work with fortune as in if I fail the first inv. save but manage the reroll?
Re-rolling that save would be re-rolling a re-roll (at least from my point of view) which we have a cardinal rule against.

I would still play this as a forced reroll RAI but if I wanted to I do believe I could argue from a RAW point of view that the forced re-roll should not be taken as it goes against no rerolling a re-roll.

Opinions?

TheDarkFlame
10-07-2008, 14:05
Well, I'd say that you have to take the re-roll. seriously, otherwise it'd just a loophole to get round having to pass twice.

shartmatau
10-07-2008, 14:32
The wording in the book calls it a reroll, i kind of see it as two inv saves. I would let you play it however you want. If you were fortuned go ahead and reroll the save.

Fable
10-07-2008, 14:33
My suggestion is roll the die just once, since pass or fail the first roll won't count anyway you roll it. What's really sick is that you still get the bonus 3+ from the ghosthelm to ignore the attack. That means only 1/6 perils rolls will cause a wound to a Farseer.

Vandur Last
10-07-2008, 17:47
Oh nice. Since the Ghost Helm 3+ isnt a "save" then we can roll the 4+ invulnerable save AND the 3+.

Also i heard that PotW isnt S6 anymore so it wont insta-kill Farseers.
You all now no longer have any excuse to use Eldrad every single battle >< hehe

lordalchemy
10-07-2008, 21:02
I think you would be allowed only one save or else every army would be taking their armor save and then their cover save if they were in cover. Since the Ghost Helm is the better save, you would take that and only that pass or fail

N0-1_H3r3
10-07-2008, 21:17
I think you would be allowed only one save or else every army would be taking their armor save and then their cover save if they were in cover. Since the Ghost Helm is the better save, you would take that and only that pass or fail
A Ghosthelm doesn't provide a save. It's like Feel No Pain - it's a separate roll that happens in addition to, but seperately from, saves.

Elios Harg
10-07-2008, 21:21
Since only 1 reroll is ever allowed per die roll, it would work as follows: You fail the first save, you reroll because of Fortune, if successful, you no longer need to reroll. If you succeed on the first save, you reroll because of Perils, if you fail, you no longer get to reroll.

Homer S
10-07-2008, 21:30
One little addition:

1) Make your Ghosthelm roll first, if you pass then you are done.
2) Roll your Invul Save, if you pass then roll a second time, if you fail either time you are allowed one re-roll for Fortune.

The Ghosthelm tries to ignore the attack. Rolling the Invul Save means you were successully attacked and must save the wound twice to avoid it.

Homer

Gazak Blacktoof
10-07-2008, 21:38
Since only 1 reroll is ever allowed per die roll, it would work as follows: You fail the first save, you reroll because of Fortune, if successful, you no longer need to reroll. If you succeed on the first save, you reroll because of Perils, if you fail, you no longer get to reroll.

This would probably be the correct way of doing things. Both warhammer games share a common no re-roll of a re-roll rule and its been FAQ'ed for fantasy that you follow the procedure as outlined by elios harg.

Essentially you roll the die twice and apply the second result. Its a bit odd but that'll probably be the way it works if it gets FAQ'ed for 40K too.

Elios Harg
10-07-2008, 21:39
2) is wrong. "No single dice may be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll." Rulebook p. 2

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
10-07-2008, 23:34
it is quite simple:

1) roll 3+ ghost helm - successful means no wound

2) roll 4+ inv - failed means wound, successful means roll again - if pass no wound, if fail - wound
or
if fortuned, roll 4+ inv and roll again [it is meaningless]. successful means no wound, failure means wounded farseer.

so simple ..

belize13
10-07-2008, 23:40
it is quite simple:

1) roll 3+ ghost helm - successful means no wound

2) roll 4+ inv - failed means wound, successful means roll again - if pass no wound, if fail - wound
or
if fortuned, roll 4+ inv and roll again [it is meaningless]. successful means no wound, failure means wounded farseer.

so simple ..

this is the correct process

Kyrolon
11-07-2008, 05:46
this is the correct process

I disagree. This process does't account for fortune at all. I don't see the rolls as overlapping at all. The Fortune power entitles you to a reroll of a failed armor or inv or cover save. Until you have failed you have no opportunity to reroll it. The second roll for a successful save is not the same as a player reroll.

At the very worst the two would offset one another just as Runes of Witnessing and Shadow in the Warp have been FAQ'ed to do. Regardless of how much people want to spout RAW it doesn't always work. This is one case where it doesn't. People take it too far as evidenced by comments reported by others here by both Jervis and Phil Kelley.

xinsanityx
11-07-2008, 06:32
And everyone was saying these new 5th edition rules were so clear and well written. This is probably the 5th rules thread in 3 days with no clear answer. Complaining that people take it too far is, IMO, just an excuse for lazyness and sloppiness in their rules development/writing. It's a way to scapegoat the blame.

Fortune says "this unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes until the start of the next eldar turn." So, if you're fortuned you must re-roll a failed save, there's no wording in there that gives you an option. The perils rule says you may take an invulnerable save, but if you make it the first time you must re-roll that save. So both of them require the player to re-roll, there is no option, you must do it or you break a rule.

The rule book specifically forbids you to re-roll a re-roll. So no matter how this is worked out a rule is going to be broken.

1. If the invulnerable save is passed, perils says you must re-roll it. You re-roll it and fail. Now fortune says you MUST re-roll that. However if you re-roll it you're breaking the re-roll rule. If you don't re-roll it you break the fortune rule.

2. If the invulnerable save is failed, fortune makes you re-roll it. If it is then passed perils says you must re-roll. We run into the same problem here as in #1


it is quite simple:

1) roll 3+ ghost helm - successful means no wound

2) roll 4+ inv - failed means wound, successful means roll again - if pass no wound, if fail - wound
or
if fortuned, roll 4+ inv and roll again [it is meaningless]. successful means no wound, failure means wounded farseer.

so simple ..


I think what you're saying here is that the re-roll is pointless so you should just do away with it and roll one d6? While it's not RAW, i also see that as the best solution. There is no way to fix this by using RAW, so each individual is going to have to do what they think is best.

The best solution i think, is to just roll 1 d6. If it passes it passes, if it fails it fails, which is what i believe Acheron's idea was.

Tigerguy
11-07-2008, 06:37
it is quite simple:

1) roll 3+ ghost helm - successful means no wound

2) roll 4+ inv - failed means wound, successful means roll again - if pass no wound, if fail - wound
or
if fortuned, roll 4+ inv and roll again [it is meaningless]. successful means no wound, failure means wounded farseer.

so simple ..

I would have to agree with this solution right here. Everyone else is thinking too hard.

Sleby
11-07-2008, 07:00
You can't re roll a re roll. :\

Isambard
11-07-2008, 09:04
You can't re roll a re roll. :\

Indeed, you are entirely correct, but that is not the point.

If you are fortuned you might as well only roll one dice and not bother with the re-roll, as under RAW you have to re-roll the dice what ever the result, making it pointless to roll it in the first place.

Poseidal
11-07-2008, 09:19
From what I see:

You only ever reroll once.

Fortune means you reroll fails, Perils tells you to reroll passes.

RAW, you make one meaningless roll (if you pass it, perils forces you to reroll it, if you fail it fortune forces you to reroll it), then take another roll and take the second result because you cannot reroll the dice a second time from either rule.

fengor
11-07-2008, 09:24
I agree with Poseidal. Basically they cancel each other out. You can simply role one die and go by the result since if you would roll 2 the first gets ignored anyway...

Lorieth
11-07-2008, 11:44
My suggestion is roll the die just once, since pass or fail the first roll won't count anyway you roll it.

Agreed. Fortune lets you re-roll failed saves, Perils makes you re-roll passed saves. Nothing contradictory about that, you can do both -- but since that boils down to "roll a die, then ignore it and re-roll" the effect is exactly the same as not taking either re-roll, so I'll be playing it that way. I roll enough dice as it is!

EldarWonderland
11-07-2008, 12:12
Having not yet got the new rulebook (until tomorrow I hope) I find it incredible that such a cr*p rule has been designed.

I play Eldar and I am rather confused at the moment. Do these rule writers actually play the game and more to the point play it as someone looking for faults rather than see how nice it all goes and how much cash they are going to drain off the players?

Idiots!

fengor
11-07-2008, 13:07
why is it a crap rule EldarWonderland?

It's jsut 2 rules conflicting and i think the roll a dice keep the result in case of fortuned potw is a good solution.

Normal PotW is a wound with reroll and fortuned PotW is a normal wound. Which is according to mathhammer quite an increase. So all in all fortune works as expected (makes the farseer more survivable)

Poseidal
11-07-2008, 13:12
It's jsut 2 rules conflicting and i think the roll a dice keep the result in case of fortuned potw is a good solution.
They don't even conflict, they just state when to re-roll depending on your first roll. It just so happens that if both rules are in effect, you will re-roll the first dice regardless of of the outcome.

Cypher
11-07-2008, 15:59
Im inclined to agree that they cancel each other out.

Im thinking though that the RaI (here we go ;) ) is more that you have to successfully pass the Inv Save twice (lets ignore the use of the word "reroll" here). As such, you'd play it as "First Save", reroll as neccessary, if passed, "Second Save", reroll if neccessary.

Incidentally, the math on doing it that way gives an average 56% pass rate.

Gazak Blacktoof
11-07-2008, 20:22
it is quite simple:

1) roll 3+ ghost helm - successful means no wound

2) roll 4+ inv - failed means wound, successful means roll again - if pass no wound, if fail - wound
or
if fortuned, roll 4+ inv and roll again [it is meaningless]. successful means no wound, failure means wounded farseer.

so simple ..


I would have to agree with this solution right here. Everyone else is thinking too hard.


If I'm interpretting what Acheron wrote correctly then that's exactly what Elios Harg and I have already said is the correct process.

Dr.Mercury
11-07-2008, 21:38
my brain hurts

Shadow Wulfen
12-07-2008, 01:31
They don't even conflict, they just state when to re-roll depending on your first roll. It just so happens that if both rules are in effect, you will re-roll the first dice regardless of of the outcome.

You are correct they don't conflict. Perils of the Warp will allow you to take an invulnerable save that if you pass it PotW will make you re-roll the invulnerable save. Fortune however will not apply itself because it is stated in the rulebook that you cannot re-roll re-rolls, therefore fortune can't apply itself because you can't re-roll a re-roll.

Kyrolon
12-07-2008, 02:29
But why should fortune be ignored? Why does the POTW reroll take precedence? I would argue that the POTW reroll is not even a reroll in the sense of rerolling a reroll. The player may not choose to reroll a reroll. With POTW you do not get to choose anything, therefore the reroll is from furtune and fortune alone.

The POTW "reroll" is really just a second opportunity to wound.

Homer S
12-07-2008, 04:42
Does that makes it...

Ghosthelm: pass = no wound, fail...

1st Save: pass = re-roll due to POTW,
fail = re-roll due to Fortune,
second roll pass = no wound, second roll fail = wound, as Fortune cannot re-roll a re-roll.

I get it now. In effect, you ignore the first roll. You could skip it to speed things up, but POTW is quite rare and your opponent might enjoy the rolling/explaining.

Homer

EldarBishop
12-07-2008, 04:50
I haven't got my 5th rulebook yet, however

1. Ghosthelm = pass (and you are good, stop.) or fail and move to 2.

2. Inv Save
a. fail and then Fortune makes you reroll
b. pass and then Perils makes you reroll

c. either way, you are discarding the "first" Inv save and rolling again. This second result MUST be accepted, as the RULES do not allow you to reroll a reroll.

xinsanityx
12-07-2008, 06:23
c. either way, you are discarding the "first" Inv save and rolling again. This second result MUST be accepted, as the RULES do not allow you to reroll a reroll.

why MUST this second result be accepted? The rules do not allow you to re-roll a re-roll, but the rules also say you MUST re-roll. Which rule would take precedence? Either way you go you are breaking a rule. It was poorly thought out, like many of their rules in 5th. There is no right answer to this one, the only thing you can do is to house rule it.

EldarBishop
12-07-2008, 06:49
As I stated.. I haven't got my 5th rulebook yet (hopefully I'll pick it up tomorrow).

However, the rule of NEVER being able to re-roll a re-roll REGARDLESS of the source has appeared in many of the previous and current incarnations of both 40k and Fantasy.

Poseidal
12-07-2008, 07:53
why MUST this second result be accepted? The rules do not allow you to re-roll a re-roll, but the rules also say you MUST re-roll. Which rule would take precedence? Either way you go you are breaking a rule. It was poorly thought out, like many of their rules in 5th. There is no right answer to this one, the only thing you can do is to house rule it.

All reroll rules simply allow you to reroll. If the "only one reroll" rule did not exist then 'reroll misses' would allow you to reroll your dice over and over again until every single one hit, as it doesn't say 'reroll your fist miss'.

It is the precedence to all reroll rules in both Warhammer games; you always take the second roll, otherwise there is nothing in the rules telling you that you can't keep rerolling until you pass.

You are correct they don't conflict. Perils of the Warp will allow you to take an invulnerable save that if you pass it PotW will make you re-roll the invulnerable save. Fortune however will not apply itself because it is stated in the rulebook that you cannot re-roll re-rolls, therefore fortune can't apply itself because you can't re-roll a re-roll.
Fortune will apply on your first roll. If you fail your first save, you reroll it due to fortune; you do not reroll the second roll for perils; you may not reroll a dice that has already been rerolled. The same applies vice versa.

Otherwise, by the letter of the rules you literally must keep rerolling forever as Fortune says "Any failed saves" not "The first save" and I assume perils has similar wording.

Eryx_UK
12-07-2008, 12:09
The way I look at it, rightly or wrongly, is that you make your Inv save and pass. You then have to re-roll it since this is built into the mechanics, but you are forced to keep that second roll since you cannot re-roll a re-roll. If you just make it as that, everything works fine.

Rangerrob
12-07-2008, 12:40
Until it is FAQ'ed I'll be playing it as if you need to make two saves to prevent the one wound. And get to re-roll each of them if you need to with fortune.

Seems reroll was the best word to come up with to say you need two saves for that one wound.
They used re-roll to prevent over anxious players from thinking, if you got to make two saves and fail them both...you take two wounds.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
12-07-2008, 13:55
If I'm interpretting what Acheron wrote correctly then that's exactly what Elios Harg and I have already said is the correct process.

i think so.

so: if fortuned roll one, then re-roll [or for simplicity sake roll just once, if opponent is not aa a****le]it and apply the second roll. simple.

reasoning: roll cant be re-rolled more than once. perils makes us re-roll successful saves and fortune makes us re-roll failed saves. as on first roll you can only success or fail, you must re-roll it and apply second result. simple

Gazak Blacktoof
12-07-2008, 19:36
Yes, that's exactly what I thought you were saying.

Wiredk
12-07-2008, 21:24
I thought the general rule of thumb is that you can only reroll a die once.