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sanctuary of the cruel
10-07-2008, 15:54
I was wondering what in your opinion is the army that is most hardest to master. In the whole of 40k universe?

Please feel free to multi poll

x-esiv-4c
10-07-2008, 16:15
I could see a mono-nurgle list without Epi as being a pain :)

Iron Father
10-07-2008, 16:16
I vote Deathwing, low model count and bad dice rolls make it hard to play, but I love it.

Bloodknight
10-07-2008, 16:19
Khorne CSM on foot, IMHO.

KeeganKatastrofee
10-07-2008, 16:22
dark eldar


impossible to play right off the bat
but as soon as you get good, they're unbeatable
=D

Polonius
10-07-2008, 16:30
Well, this is really a two pronged question:

1) What is the most difficult codex to win with, even with a good build?
2) What is the most difficult build to win with, taken from any codex.

The answer to the first one is probably Daemonhunters. Low model count, limited anti-tank, expensive and slow troops choices.

The answer to the second is murky. There are some intentionally bad builds, like IG with 30 Ogryn, or Eldar with 120 storm guardians. Things are also trickier because many of the ways builds used to focus in the past aren't as important to GW any more. For example, four years ago there would be a presumption to build Daemon armies out of one god's demons. Now, mix and max is encouraged.

There is an additional variable in your question: are you asking for the army with the steepest learning curve, but once mastered are strong? Or are you looking for the army that even once mastered are tough to win with?

If the former, I'd go with Ork Kult of Speed in the new book.

If the latter, I'd go with pure Grey Knights.

Champsguy
10-07-2008, 18:04
It also depends upon your local scene. Grey Knights aren't that bad if you aren't facing a huge amount of armor. Likewise a tank-heavy IG force is going to be hurt if you have a lot of DE Dark Lance-spam armies floating around your store. Dark Eldar Raider Rush is great, until you run into a force of Drop Pod Marines, at which point it is almost impossible for you to win.

Some builds are just intentionally bad. Virtually any army can build a "can't win" force if they try to.

Doomseer
10-07-2008, 18:09
Grey Knights are a real hard force to manage effectively and regularly, even with practice they are patience draining.

sanctuary of the cruel
10-07-2008, 18:36
Well, this is really a two pronged question:

1) What is the most difficult codex to win with, even with a good build?
2) What is the most difficult build to win with, taken from any codex.

The answer to the first one is probably Daemonhunters. Low model count, limited anti-tank, expensive and slow troops choices.

The answer to the second is murky. There are some intentionally bad builds, like IG with 30 Ogryn, or Eldar with 120 storm guardians. Things are also trickier because many of the ways builds used to focus in the past aren't as important to GW any more. For example, four years ago there would be a presumption to build Daemon armies out of one god's demons. Now, mix and max is encouraged.

There is an additional variable in your question: are you asking for the army with the steepest learning curve, but once mastered are strong? Or are you looking for the army that even once mastered are tough to win with?

If the former, I'd go with Ork Kult of Speed in the new book.

If the latter, I'd go with pure Grey Knights.

I would be looking for both steepest learning curve and mastered it will be strong. As well as your own opinion of hardest army to master.

Polonius
10-07-2008, 18:40
Well, for steep learning curves but powerful once mastered, you need look no further than Dark Eldar, specifically Wych Cult. Insanely fragile, but packs a heck of a punch.

Generally, the answer is going to vary between most of the rare armies: DE, DH, Mech IG, etc.

Latro_
10-07-2008, 18:40
Khorne CSM on foot, IMHO.

lol whys that? because it is infact impossible to master haha

Dach
10-07-2008, 18:44
See signature... :D

Venerable_Bede
10-07-2008, 18:49
Dwarves.

Yes, they're a WFB army, but they're so damned hard to win with in WFB that they should also be considered the hardest army in 40K!

Overt_Spy
10-07-2008, 19:16
Dwarves.

Yes, they're a WFB army, but they're so damned hard to win with in WFB that they should also be considered the hardest army in 40K!

Yes, I can see why an army of stunties armed with medieval axes and guns might have a problem against armies of power suit wearing, rocket launching shooting aliens.

Not to go too off topic, but I run an infantry heavy (not a gunline) Dwarf army, and I don't have to many problems with them. Sure, they're slow as hell and get out manoeuvered, but no other race in fantasy can take a charge like Dwarfs can, I can't recall how many times people have tried to just run down my Ironbreakers, only to see them endure, and then force the chargers to flee with their sheer badassness. I think Dwarfs are one of the stronger WFB armies.

With regards to 40K, it seems like the Grey Knights are a really tough army, which is weird because fluff wise, they are the absolute pinnacle of humanity.

Dark Eldar are also apparently really tough, which has lead me to want to collect them, because I hear they can chew up most armies when used right (although, which army isn't this true for also?)

opforce3
10-07-2008, 19:22
when played anywhere but the jungle, catachans hands down. otherwise, id say grey knights

Venerable_Bede
10-07-2008, 19:59
I can't recall how many times people have tried to just run down my Ironbreakers, only to see them endure, and then force the chargers to flee with their sheer badassness. I think Dwarfs are one of the stronger WFB armies.


That's only if the enemy is polite enough to charge you frontally with no support from flank or rear. The Dwarves slow movement and lack of cavalry makes them sitting ducks for almost every other army unless they hug the table edge!

And I guess you don't play against Brettonians too often (my primary opponent!)--Those Knights in wedge will sweep away even your Ironbreakers with a frontal charge. :eyebrows:

Xirathnix
10-07-2008, 20:53
The Dark Eldar are unforgiving thus tough to learn, but once you know them you dominate.

Did you leave that raider full of troops? awww...
Those wytches get caught in the open!? awww...
You only packed 1 WW portal and you got to close with the squad carrying it? awww...
You deployed your WW to soon/late? awww...

the list goes on...

you actually put in a unit of hellions/mandrakes/scourges with DL(lol). awww....

Vaktathi
10-07-2008, 23:11
Dark Eldar are very difficult to play properly, but once learned will thrash anything. Daemonhunters on the other hand are not only hard to play, but have so many glaring holes in their capabilities and overcosted units that even when played correctly, you just may not be able to bring enough "stuff" to counter what your opponent is using, or may not be able to field anything to counter it at all.

Hicks
10-07-2008, 23:24
I vote for daemon hunters, especialy pure Grey Knight lists. Always outnumbered, always outgunned, always outeverythinged! The only reason I still play with mine is to show off the awesome models, because they very rarely win.

Champsguy
10-07-2008, 23:34
The difficulty in playing Dark Eldar (and their power once mastered) is overstated.

The are not a beginner army, and do require very different tactics than others, but they are not that difficult. They pack a substantial punch when used properly, but they aren't unbeatable.

Culven
10-07-2008, 23:50
I vote for my Deathwatch army as the most difficult to play. Using only Deathwatch units (HQ, Veterans, and Tactical squads), they are expensive, underpowered Space Marines. They cost as much as Grey Knights and don't have the range or combat capability of the Grey knights.

From Shadows
10-07-2008, 23:51
Dark Eldar are very tough to master, but in the right hands the are extremely deadly.

FashaTheDog
11-07-2008, 00:02
I think the issue with Dark Eldar is that the list really relies upon the player not to make any mistakes. Once you've learned not to forget this rule or not do this silly thing, especially when deploying, the hard way, you quickly find that the list runs very smoothly and can be quite competative.

Of all the armies I've played in 4th edition (all but Daemons), hands down D-99 is the hardest list to learn, play, and master. Despite folks telling me winning against any decently experienced opponent is impossible, I still try. As of now my record runs something like 0-50ish-1. The fact is that D-99 allows for a maximum of 85 deepstriking BS4, I4 Guardsmen per FOC. Your infantry heavy weapon options are heavy bolters and missile launchers. In return you can take a demo charge in you troop choices or two special weapons as well as giving the sergeants officer only equipment. With the Heavy Support options being limited to 1-3 sentry guns or a Vulture and the only transport option available for any unit being a Valkyrie, many D-99 lists will be out-numbered by Deathwing lists. I will admit deep striking Cyclops are fun but even still you can only take three at most and if you do that you lose out on heavy bolter or multi-melta sentinels that also deepstrike (and can take those vital improved comms). Overall the list will see you out-number and out-gunned protected by only by a 5+ armor, if you can call that protection, and by the superior mobility provided by deep striking and having flyiers galore.

Chem-Dog
11-07-2008, 00:19
I vote for daemon hunters, especialy pure Grey Knight lists. Always outnumbered, always outgunned, always outeverythinged! The only reason I still play with mine is to show off the awesome models, because they very rarely win.

I'd be tempted to agree here, one of the guys at my club has a GK army and they are really difficult to use effectively and more often then not they rely on their Grand Master to wade through squads quickly enough to even the ballance.


I vote for my Deathwatch army as the most difficult to play. Using only Deathwatch units (HQ, Veterans, and Tactical squads), they are expensive, underpowered Space Marines. They cost as much as Grey Knights and don't have the range or combat capability of the Grey knights.

Well, that'll teach you to make up an army :p

Personally I have found the Slaanesh monogod Daemons army a bugger to use, that 1st turn DS deploy means you can only HOPE you'll not scatter into the open (t3/Sv5+ does not make a good bullet magnet) and this is made even worse by the Deepstriking mishap rule in 5th Edition, I'll have to deploy far enough away from terrain so I don't potentially kill the unit before it's done anything or allow the enemy to place them (thus consigning them to an early exit OR a long jog across the battlefield) AND have to try and drop them where they can't be vaped by massed fire in that turn they can't move....
I could max out on 6 squads of 18 Daemonettes which is just over 1.5K but that doesn't give me any room for any of the good stuff.

Captin Korea!
11-07-2008, 01:08
I'd be tempted to agree here, one of the guys at my club has a GK army and they are really difficult to use effectively and more often then not they rely on their Grand Master to wade through squads quickly enough to even the ballance.



Well, that'll teach you to make up an army :p

Personally I have found the Slaanesh monogod Daemons army a bugger to use, that 1st turn DS deploy means you can only HOPE you'll not scatter into the open (t3/Sv5+ does not make a good bullet magnet) and this is made even worse by the Deepstriking mishap rule in 5th Edition, I'll have to deploy far enough away from terrain so I don't potentially kill the unit before it's done anything or allow the enemy to place them (thus consigning them to an early exit OR a long jog across the battlefield) AND have to try and drop them where they can't be vaped by massed fire in that turn they can't move....
I could max out on 6 squads of 18 Daemonettes which is just over 1.5K but that doesn't give me any room for any of the good stuff.


Most people I play with think my mono daemonette army is broken (only daemonettes, steeds, 1 herald in 1-1.5k :wtf:) and will complain if I bring them. Sure we have the strength of a school girl, but with all those attacks, rends and high I we will usually come out on top in combat. Aside from fighting nids, mono slaanesh has not proved to difficult for me to play.

Filthy O'Bedlam
11-07-2008, 02:27
For Question one I believe it`s the Witch Hunters. The Sisters of Battle inhabit a grey area between MEQ and regular mortals, and the power armour throws alotta people off. When first using the WH many players, (myself included) tend to play them just like Marines, and get counter-assaulted and slaughtered. Some of the best assault units in the army are units that can`t claim table quarters, again adding to the difficulty,

Also, SoB models are metal and expensive, and this can lead to lists being padded with Storm troopers, who just aren`t worth it past about two squads as back-up.

However, when all things are clicking in a Sister-heavy WH army they are devestating. Mobile, with devestating anti-personnel and anti-tank weaponry. And of course there are Faith Points, which put the icing on the WH cake, allowing near invulnerability or rending bolters a few times per game. Another reason to go with lots of Sisters.

Number two for me is anything all-terminator, or thereabouts. Deathwing, Chaos Terminator Army etc. I tried a Termie kill team with 25 Terminators and 10 CSM. It Looked really cool,and got really destroyed.

Cheers, Filthy

Unamed Consript
11-07-2008, 02:40
whats a D-99?

Hicks
11-07-2008, 02:45
whats a D-99?

Forge World's rules for the Elysians.

FashaTheDog
11-07-2008, 04:45
Sorry about that, they are not just Elysians as that list is in IA 3, but Elysian air cav special forces of the Ordo Xenos (so GW, well Forgeworld to be precise, does have a Xeno Hunter list). The army list can be found in IA 4 but apart from the quick summery I gave above, they also will only run if they break from combat as they will otherwise be pinned and if broken, can regroup below 50%. They're much like Marines only with S&T3, 5+ saves, and lasguns.

Drogmir
11-07-2008, 06:47
I find specialized armies are hard to play when out of their element.

Ex. Infantry IG vs Tau shooty army
Orks vs Long range Tau Shoot Army
Tau Shoot army vs Fast CC Nids
etc. etc.

Only guys who have it kind of even is Vanilla Space Marines since their specialization is limited. So you don't really get caught out of an element (unless it's marines vs Tanks). But you don't have an easy time winning either.

shin'keiro
11-07-2008, 10:13
Most challenging army to play in 40k?

Dark Eldar Wych Cult.

Azulthar
11-07-2008, 10:29
Going by normal codex armies: Daemonhunters and Witchhunters.

Dark Eldar might come in third, but they're nowhere near the 'hunters (especially not the Daemonhunters)

Norsehawk
11-07-2008, 11:09
Imperial Guard with:
Warrior Weapons
Carapace Armor
Ogryns
Chameoline
Hardened Fighters

12.5 points per trooper, for platemail wearing, sneaky, decent fighting guardsmen with laspistols/ccw. And while it would be fun to watch, you know it is going to be a meat grinder when they get into the mix. (if they even get there)

pol
11-07-2008, 16:09
Since I only played with: Orks, IG, Tau, Space Marine, Chaos Space Marine and Necrons. I say it is the IG that are the hardest army to play with.

Serpent
11-07-2008, 16:37
13th Company. Expensive models, paying for equipment which DA/BA get for free, and no vehicles. And with the new Deep Strike Rules, they're impossible to keep alive when teleporting...

Ubermensch Commander
11-07-2008, 17:08
Steep learning curve but brutal once mastered? Everything is altered by context(who ya playing, terrain set up, other army comp, your army comp, etc) but as a general rule id give the top ranks to:
Dark Eldar.-hard to learn but NASTY once you get it down. I love em!
Pure Daemon hunters-aye, a pure DH force is hard to use, but can be pain if used right.
Pure Deathwing-SO MUCH FUN to fight with and against! My friend uses em against my (almost) all genestealer amry.....loads of fun!

Id have to disagree on Witch hunters on having a steep learning curve. They are so bloody flexible with their sisters of battle. Their prayers are really good, and that Exorcist tank!...ow. Mind you, i am not saying they are unbeatable, just very flexible and seem kinda easy to lear. Though...my experience with them is limited to 3 games against. I just own the codex and have looked through it.

Firaxin
11-07-2008, 18:27
Armored Company/Mech IG. Easier to take out than a grey knight, similar shooting but worse melee, and loads more expensive.

TheDarkDuke
11-07-2008, 18:43
i voted grey knights. they really have some crappy rules plus are very expensive pointwise (well money as too).

however dark eldar are very difficult to play, however they can actually be a very very powerful army. so many lance weapons.

Danny Internet
11-07-2008, 19:26
Might be worth differentiating between simply playing with an army and playing well (ie mastering) with an army.

For instance, it's very easy to use Necrons to force draws against the average player, even if the Necron general has no idea what he's doing. However, Necrons typically perform poorly in tournament settings, even in experienced hands, which would suggest a unique type of learning curve.

mechu95
11-07-2008, 19:52
Khorne CSM without Rhinos, Nurgle Deamons without Epidemius, and Dark Eldar.

sanctuary of the cruel
13-07-2008, 11:17
More posts more polls !

Promethius
13-07-2008, 17:55
I voted daemonhunters. They are a specialised anti-daemon fighting force that, since the release of the daemon book, are pretty poor at what they are supposed to do best. They have glaring weaknesses in capability (anti-tank for starters) and most of the units are overcosted. If that wasn't enough, everybody and their dog is equipped to take out MEQs nowadays, and when you have a low model count, expensive army facing walls of plasma guns and the like, your options are limited.

Personally I think the only realistic way to fix them is to combine them with the other ordos into one big book so that the majority of the time they can add heavy support etc from other factions. The pure grey knights guys would benefit from some points drops here and there and a general buff. I also think that plastic stormtroopers with much better rules (read: improved hellgun) would allow a cheap, useful unit to pad out the army.

40kdhs
13-07-2008, 19:16
a pure GK army is the hardest one to play because they don't receive a lot of love from GW.

sanctuary of the cruel
13-07-2008, 20:03
right keep the posting and polls giong guys thanks all who posted and polled too