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Grus
10-07-2008, 18:57
My newly started empire force have severe problems against VC and since 50% of all my battles seem to be against VC this is becoming annoying.

Sometimes I can handle the big monsters he brings and his knights by shooting them before combat (this is provided that his screens fail or are shot to pieces). If they reach me they just go straight through my infantry blocks not caring about CR since the kills are enough to let them win combat.

The major problem starts with etherals and especially wraiths with the Banshee upgrade. When I face a unit of 10 wraiths it doesnt really matter what the rest of the army is. Unless I manage to kill the general I cant do anything useful against them except for possibly trying to feed them detachments (the problem with this is that fear, terror, high movement and skirmishing usually either avoids ocmbat with the detachment or kills them in my round if I charge).

Usually my opponents are playing magic heavy so they have lots of dispel dice and lots of IoN making killing them with magic very difficult. I can do some damage but as soon as it is his turn they are back in full strength.

Irisado
10-07-2008, 21:43
If your opponent is using ten Wraiths, your opponent must be using up a sizable portion of his points. What points value do you normally play?

I would suggest that you try something a little bit different to help you to get some of your spells off. Light and Bright Magic will make a mess of Wraiths, so in order to get some spells off, try taking out some of the weaker magic users in his list, so that his pool of dispel dice starts to diminish. If he fields a Corpse Cart, for example, try to deploy your army in such a way that you have of sight to it with a Great Cannon or two. Necromancers may not seem like that big a scalp, but they have this annoying habit of casting Invocation of Nehek, as well as contributing to that dispel dice pool, so getting rid of them is always worthwhile.

Another tip for destroying Wraiths is to charge them with ranked infantry blocks before they charge you. Wraiths are devastating on the charge, but if you hit them first with a large block of, for example, Swordsmen, led by a Warrior Priest, you can beat them with combat resolution, especially if your Warrior Priest gets to cast Soulfire on them at any stage. If you really want to get a Priest's powers off, you can save them to the end of the magic phase when, hopefully, your opponent has used all of his dispel dice, and give him a nasty surprise.

Another trick the Empire have up their sleeve is the Orb of Thunder. If your opponent is fond of bringing big flying monsters to the table, save this item right to the end of your magic phase and then watch the expression on his face when you 'ground' all his flying units.

If they are going straight through your infantry, it sounds as though to me your blocks may not be big enough. How many models are you fielding in your big infantry blocks. I would say twenty-five would be a good number.

If you're having problems with moral, then a Battle Standard Bearer with the Imperial Banner may help. You'll need to keep him well guarded in a unit though, since he is vulnerable to enemy attacks without magic armour.

Also, while all this is going on, where is your counter attack? I assume that you are not just sitting there, and letting him come to you. Use cavalry flank attacks to distract him, or punch through his line from the side. You need to give him something else to think about other than closing in on your infantry.

There are probably tips and tricks I've missed, since I haven't played a lot of fantasy under seventh edition rules and army books, but I hope that I've given you some helpful advice nevertheless.

Frankly
10-07-2008, 22:25
Whats in your list?

It always helps to tell us whats in your armylist so we can work with your list instead of giving you info you can't use.;)

kroq'gar
11-07-2008, 07:16
Yeah, put up the rough outline of your list.

Grus
11-07-2008, 08:09
Hi again,

Thanks for the tips so far. We have been playing friendly games of different sizes and not always followed the rules for number of core, special rare etc. The last couple of games VC put up around 1500 points (and I think 540 of those were wraiths, and another large part was the magic geared vampire lord and then some support units) and empire around 2k points. The goal in these games was to destroy the wraiths.

I normally field 2 cannons, 2-3 infantry blocks (usually swordsmen) with detachments (halbardiers), one unit of pistoliers (very efficient against undead such as zombies and ghouls) and one small unit of knights.

In addition I have tried different set ups especially for characters and magic items. I have tried multiple wizards, captain with casket, AL on horse (I dont have any Waltar), tried to destroy his IoN (in one game we actually said it autosucceeded and this was a large improvement but normally only 50% chance which for me usually means that it fails).

I have been thinking about fielding multiple units of handgunners (but dont have the models at this time) with HLR upgrades. To fit them into the table I have considered setting them up in ranks 3 wide. The goal would be to take out some of his normal vampires to decrease the number of IoN (the Lord is usually hiding behind another unit with the helm to give support).

I have also been thinking about adding more warmachines to do more damage to his infantry blocks but again I dont have the models.

Last option I considered was to get the Waltar, load up on bound spells as well as wizards and then try going magic crazy.

Whitehorn
11-07-2008, 08:10
Assassinate his vampires, watch his army crumble, laugh at his 525 point wraith unit.

Normal vampires only have 2 wounds and have to spend the majority of their magic points allowance to get a inv save or half their bloodline allowance to get normal armor. If you spot that any vamps are using bound spells, or are tooled up for extra magic, then they've probably got that in lieu of armour. Throw something at them and take them out - a hard hitting unit without characters.. charge to strike first.. allocate all hits on the vamp.

Irisado
11-07-2008, 10:45
Thanks for the tips so far. We have been playing friendly games of different sizes and not always followed the rules for number of core, special rare etc.

This, in part, explains your problem. If you don't use the rules for selecting units, you're giving your VC opponent a very big advantage, as many Special and Rare units in the VC list are particularly nasty.


I normally field 2 cannons, 2-3 infantry blocks (usually swordsmen) with detachments (halbardiers), one unit of pistoliers (very efficient against undead such as zombies and ghouls) and one small unit of knights.

I would have two units of Knights, one larger one of Inner Circle Knights, led by a Templar Grand Master, and launch a strong flank attack in conjunction with the Pistoliers and smaller units of Knights. I get the impression that you are being a bit too reactive with your tactics, and that you need to do something more aggressive to catch your opponent by surprise.


I have been thinking about fielding multiple units of handgunners (but dont have the models at this time) with HLR upgrades. To fit them into the table I have considered setting them up in ranks 3 wide. The goal would be to take out some of his normal vampires to decrease the number of IoN (the Lord is usually hiding behind another unit with the helm to give support).

It's not a bad idea, but don't go overboard with it. The Hochland Long Rifle isn't that accurate when being used to shoot at a single character at distance, so a couple of units of ten Hangunners in one rank would be the way I would go.


I have also been thinking about adding more warmachines to do more damage to his infantry blocks but again I dont have the models.

Mortars are a pretty good bet if your opponent fields large blocks of Skeletons, because even if it scatters, you would have to be very unlucky not to hit something.


Last option I considered was to get the Waltar, load up on bound spells as well as wizards and then try going magic crazy.

This is akin to that which I was suggesting earlier, but again don't go overboard. Two Wizards are usually enough. If you play a larger game, you could take a Light Wizard Lord. It would have to be a larger game though, since you don't want a Wizard Lord as your army general.

Gaius Marius
11-07-2008, 15:04
A Grand Master is Cool, but kind of a point sink.
2 moderate sized units of cav - 7-9 models each lead by a Warrior priest would be a good investment. Use the prayer that makes them unbreakable and throw them at the flanks of the army.
Also consider using your prayers first. If your other charecters are Wizard(s), you offer up the prayers first, which always work, so your opponent has to choose to let them through or not. Then throw the dice for your other spells... this means that your opponent has to decide to stop your prayers before he finds out whether or not you miscast or succeed in casting, and how many dice he has to spare.

Defender of Ulthuan
11-07-2008, 15:16
Take large blocks of swordsmen/flagellants with priests, and as much light/fire magic as you can muster.

Always remember, if its "evil", it can be killed with light, fire, and "righteousness".

And listen to Rush, so this bull doesn't go to your head.

Defender

kroq'gar
11-07-2008, 15:20
There is one cheap tactic...

warrior priest and captain in one regiment.
Warrior priest has van hosts.
Captain sword of fate.

Issue a challenge with warrior priest. His general accepts, swap stats. His general declines, direct attacks with the sword of fate.

Grus
11-07-2008, 19:21
Thanks again, I will keep you updated how things are going. Regarding the idea to challenge the lord I still havent been in combat with the unit he is hiding in. My opponent usually has the lord in a unit of skeletons behind something else (wraiths or grave guard) and has wolfs or something else on the flanks.

sideorder_of_chips
13-07-2008, 19:49
For a unit to be a real pain, put a captain/warrior priest with rod of command and great weapon. I play VC alot and if you can bate him with your tasty unit of lightly armoured halberdiers you can get a flank charge the next turn. The only problem is challenges (if he is killed he can't use the rod of command and if he refuses the challenge he can't use it). Also, going into a debate about range vs power, why not take massed crossbows instead of handgunners.

Rodman49
13-07-2008, 20:44
There is one cheap tactic...

warrior priest and captain in one regiment.
Warrior priest has van hosts.
Captain sword of fate.

Issue a challenge with warrior priest. His general accepts, swap stats. His general declines, direct attacks with the sword of fate.

This doesn't work, when declining his general has to hide in the back so you can't allocate attacks. On the other hand if his unit champion accepts you're golden.

Rodman49
13-07-2008, 20:45
For a unit to be a real pain, put a captain/warrior priest with rod of command and great weapon. I play VC alot and if you can bate him with your tasty unit of lightly armoured halberdiers you can get a flank charge the next turn. The only problem is challenges (if he is killed he can't use the rod of command and if he refuses the challenge he can't use it). Also, going into a debate about range vs power, why not take massed crossbows instead of handgunners.

Accept Challenge with Unit Champion.

sideorder_of_chips
13-07-2008, 21:03
A good idea indeed. But just for added protection give 'im a shield for good measure.

Windings of a snake
13-07-2008, 21:12
Try the following

Arch lector on sigmars chariot
sword of sigismund
van horstmanns
meteoric iron

Sigmars priest
mounted
immun to fear in inner circle knights with war banner

wizard level2
2 scrolls

wizard level 2
whatever

Stank
large template S5

2 great canon

pistoliers

1 unit of flails

2 units of vanilla knights

It will work between 2K and 2,5K

kroq'gar
14-07-2008, 02:48
This doesn't work, when declining his general has to hide in the back so you can't allocate attacks. On the other hand if his unit champion accepts you're golden.

You get to chose who you put to the back... so if he refused, move the champion, thus you can attack. If the champion accepts your warrior priest then your captain can still direct attacks.

Kalec
14-07-2008, 03:07
Play a game under 2K so your opponent doesn't get to bring out a lord. This is vital, because a level 4 vampire lord with a fair amount of gear will give you trouble, and nothing short of the speculum can beat him without heavy losses.

Take 3 warrior priests. This gives you enough prayers to stretch his dispel pool and enough dispel dice to stop most of his spells. A moderately geared WP with some knights on the charge should be able to smack around any vamp, or at least cause him to decline which spares your units his wrath for a turn. Take crossbows over handgunners because armor piercing is worth very little against VC. Stick to the standard limits for core, special, rare, and characters so you don't come against an army of his best units without your own heavy hitters.

Arguleon-veq
14-07-2008, 18:11
With regards to shooting vs Vamp Counts, you don't want to be taking too much of it as it will be useless.

You only want to be shooting units you can WIPE OUT in 1 turns fire-power. This will usually be his Cavalry which means you want Handguns, not Crossbows. A couple of units of Handgunners and a Hellblaster or two will work fine for downing his Cavalry. Shooting his troops is a waste of time as they will be brought back to life.

You need to do you best to negate fear, Rod of Command, Icon of Magnus etc are good starts. Once you do that, your Infantry blocks with Detatchment support should beat Undead units on Combat Res despite Vamp attacks. This should wittle their units down. Once youve held then you slam a cheap unit of Knights into them.

How about 2 blocks of 25 Swords each with 7 man Halberdier Detatchments [maybe 2 of these for each unit or a unit of 7 Militia for another Detatchment] one led by a Priest or Captain with Icon of Magnus one Led by Priest of Captain with Rod of Command.

Then 2 units of 10 Handguns and 2 units of bare Knights [5-6 in Each]. You could give a unit full command and add a mounted Priest to them to make the much more hard hitting.

A Hellblaster or 2 for rare.

War Alter is the best choice of Lord but it isn't the only option, you dont even need to take a Lord Choice, you could take a Captain on Horse with Sword of Fate to go and kill a regular Vamp [he will still lose to a Vamp Lord if it has a 4+ Ward], maybe add him to that Warrior Priest + Knights combo.

sideorder_of_chips
14-07-2008, 18:25
Another way of stalling an expensive unit of his is with some Flagellants. These guys aren't particularly good fighters or cheap but they can get off a lot of strength 5 attacks in the first turn of combat. But the main thing is they are unbreakable! You can happily throw them at the enemy and know that neither side is going anywhere for a long time. They can hold units off until you can get one of yours into the enemy flank.

Kidjal
14-07-2008, 18:59
Just from personal experience with my empire army, I field a helstorm rocket battery.

When that thing hits home, it kills 18+ in a shot. Nasty if it scatters into your own troops, but great for levelling whole skelly units.
Great cannons are great for sniping enemy generals, as I found out at the tournament yesterday (sorry undead player #1)

I always field a 20 strong of swords with a battle standard, griffon banner (doubles rank bonus, rerolls and a hard hitter in the front rank)

20 strong halberds with a preist with meteoric iron and an icon of magnus

10 handgunners for longranged fire

5 outriders...15 shots of strength 4, with BS4. Thats nice for 121 points.

big unit of inner circle and a little unit of vanilla, as described above.

Templar grand master has a high LD and if kept central holds the line against undead a bit better. If hes in an innercircle unit of his own order, they also become immune to psy. A great boon against the vamps.

What else? March block him with huntsmen. Harry his wolves or bats.

Greatswords hold the record for flanking and holding with support.

Jerrus
14-07-2008, 20:37
Use Seal of Destruction on his generals Invocation of Nehek to gimp his casting =)

Irisado
14-07-2008, 21:44
With regards to shooting vs Vamp Counts, you don't want to be taking too much of it as it will be useless.

You only want to be shooting units you can WIPE OUT in 1 turns fire-power. This will usually be his Cavalry which means you want Handguns, not Crossbows. A couple of units of Handgunners and a Hellblaster or two will work fine for downing his Cavalry. Shooting his troops is a waste of time as they will be brought back to life.

While I agree with a lot of this, my only thought was isn't it sometimes beneficial to scythe through a few ranks of Skeletons to force the Vampire Counts player to use up some power dice to regenerate his/her losses? In this way, it makes it more difficult for the Vampire Counts player to use spells such as Vanhels Danse Macabre, Curse of Years, and so on, since they will have expended a number of their precious power dice.

I may be on the wrong track with this, so please feel free to tell me if I am, but I just thought it was something to consider.

Kidjal
14-07-2008, 22:23
Both work.

EvC
14-07-2008, 22:50
I've seen few tactics in this thread so far that would worry me, as a half-decent Vampire Counts player.

Essential magic items are the Rod for storing magic dice, 1+ scrolls (Destroyer scroll can be great). Make sure you have one fighter with a magic weapon, too, just in case those Wraiths cause problems. Rod of Command can be great- put a unit of Flagellants in line for the counterattack- they're more effective than Knights.

Make sure you dispel Corpse Cart Miasmas the turn before you're planning on striking, or they'll ruin your plans. You really do have to think one or even two turns ahead at least. Make sure you destroy entire units at a time, don't leave single survivors, even if you have to waste 15 Outrider shots on killing the last 2 Skeletons.

Don't listen to anyone who says a ranked-up unit will beat 10 Wraiths- it's not going to happen, short of having the BSB Griffon Banner in the unit (Who will be sliced apart by three Wraiths with ease). Sacrifice Archer detachments and the like to keep Wraiths away from your lines.

Double up on everything powerful. Two cannons. Two Outrider units. Two Hochland Long Rifles. Okay you can get away with just one Helstorm/ Helblaster ;)

Arguleon-veq
15-07-2008, 00:54
Whilst shooting does force the enemy to use power dice to regain models, in the early turn/turns he wont be using the Danse anyway and he will raise far more than he loses. You get 1 or two turns of firepower and then your shooting is almost useless, those few losses will see him lose the first round of combat maybe, but once he is in combat he is safe from your shooting and can re-plenish his ranks at will. 1 Level 2 Vamp with one of the +1 to a certain unit raising powers will raise 5 skellies/ghouls a turn. If you don't dispel him.

30 Handgunners will only kill 5 Ghouls a turn at anything over 12".

If the threadstarter does opt for a lot of shooting anyway, remember to focus fire. Wipe out those units no matter what you have to throw at it.

Try to use his own baits/screens against him. You cant charge something if you want to shoot it, you can charge a bait/screen units though with a powerful unit and then wipe them out and overun into another unit. If you do it right this will allow shooting on the unit that gets hit with the overun, meaning they are weakened and may get finished off by the over running unit before the Vamp player can replenish the losses suffered from shooting.

Irisado
15-07-2008, 15:24
I've seen few tactics in this thread so far that would worry me, as a half-decent Vampire Counts player.

Essential magic items are the Rod for storing magic dice, 1+ scrolls (Destroyer scroll can be great). Make sure you have one fighter with a magic weapon, too, just in case those Wraiths cause problems. Rod of Command can be great- put a unit of Flagellants in line for the counterattack- they're more effective than Knights.

I don't disagree that Flagellent are effective, but Inner Circle Knights on the charge are very potent, providing the Grand Master is leading them.


Make sure you dispel Corpse Cart Miasmas the turn before you're planning on striking, or they'll ruin your plans. You really do have to think one or even two turns ahead at least. Make sure you destroy entire units at a time, don't leave single survivors, even if you have to waste 15 Outrider shots on killing the last 2 Skeletons.

I completely agree with this. The one turn that I failed to dispel the Miasma in the first game I played against Vampire Counts ensured that the close combat phase was very painful for me.

As for shooting entire units to pieces, I couldn't agree more. I made the mistake of not doing so once, and I never did it again, since it was very costly.


Don't listen to anyone who says a ranked-up unit will beat 10 Wraiths- it's not going to happen, short of having the BSB Griffon Banner in the unit (Who will be sliced apart by three Wraiths with ease). Sacrifice Archer detachments and the like to keep Wraiths away from your lines.

I play Vampire Counts as well as Empire, and although my experience with the current rules is a more limited than I would like(I play more 40K these days), I think that you are being just a little bit dismissive there. If the Wraiths charge you, then yes, you are in deep trouble, regardless of your ranks. However, if you manage to charge them, and you have the right characters leading your unit (e.g Warrior Priest), and you have five ranks, you can defeat them. Personally, as I said in very first post on this thread, I prefer to blast them with magic, but charging them with a large infantry block is sometimes your only option. Wittling them down with magic before charging them is preferable though :).


Whilst shooting does force the enemy to use power dice to regain models, in the early turn/turns he wont be using the Danse anyway and he will raise far more than he loses. You get 1 or two turns of firepower and then your shooting is almost useless, those few losses will see him lose the first round of combat maybe, but once he is in combat he is safe from your shooting and can re-plenish his ranks at will. 1 Level 2 Vamp with one of the +1 to a certain unit raising powers will raise 5 skellies/ghouls a turn. If you don't dispel him.

I thought that I had probably missed something, so thank you for the explanation.

Arguleon-veq
15-07-2008, 16:23
It is a stretch to beat Wraiths with combat res, 5 will get 6 kills on their own. It doesn't matter if you charge them or not unless you have a character with magic weapon, that can pull you through along with combat res.

EvC
15-07-2008, 16:49
I play Vampire Counts as well as Empire, and although my experience with the current rules is a more limited than I would like(I play more 40K these days), I think that you are being just a little bit dismissive there. If the Wraiths charge you, then yes, you are in deep trouble, regardless of your ranks. However, if you manage to charge them, and you have the right characters leading your unit (e.g Warrior Priest), and you have five ranks, you can defeat them. Personally, as I said in very first post on this thread, I prefer to blast them with magic, but charging them with a large infantry block is sometimes your only option. Wittling them down with magic before charging them is preferable though :).

Yes I'm being dismissive, because I've both done the maths and seen them in action. Static CR will not always win the day, as much as we might like it to. Anyone who says it will does not know what they're talking about (Sorry to say it, but you have even admitted it). Remember, we're not talking about 3 bases of Spirit Hosts here, we're talking about 18 S5 attacks, that can be bumped up to WS7 with re-rolls to hit. Without the buffs, you'll still lose 6 models and therefore the combat. And it'll only get worse from there. Charge them with a large infantry block and you're doing exactly what the VC player wants you to do with them: putting them in combat and protecting them from magic missiles. If you have a Warrior Priest in the unit with a magic weapon, then that is not really a good thing, as the Warrior Priest can only manage two wounds (with perfect rolling), and will likely die to the Wraiths' attacks in short order. Even if you get lucky and your opponent forgets about Soulfire and loses a couple of Wraiths, the unit is built to be so big that it can withstand those losses. You must deal 7 wounds to a unit of Wraiths - and stop them being healed back - before it loses any combat efficiency whatsoever.

Irisado
15-07-2008, 18:23
Yes I'm being dismissive, because I've both done the maths and seen them in action. Static CR will not always win the day, as much as we might like it to. Anyone who says it will does not know what they're talking about (Sorry to say it, but you have even admitted it). Remember, we're not talking about 3 bases of Spirit Hosts here, we're talking about 18 S5 attacks, that can be bumped up to WS7 with re-rolls to hit. Without the buffs, you'll still lose 6 models and therefore the combat. And it'll only get worse from there. Charge them with a large infantry block and you're doing exactly what the VC player wants you to do with them: putting them in combat and protecting them from magic missiles. If you have a Warrior Priest in the unit with a magic weapon, then that is not really a good thing, as the Warrior Priest can only manage two wounds (with perfect rolling), and will likely die to the Wraiths' attacks in short order. Even if you get lucky and your opponent forgets about Soulfire and loses a couple of Wraiths, the unit is built to be so big that it can withstand those losses. You must deal 7 wounds to a unit of Wraiths - and stop them being healed back - before it loses any combat efficiency whatsoever.

Okay when you put it like that, I think you're right, I'm sorry for doubting you.

What's more I managed to confuse the rules for Lances and Great Weapons, so now I feel even more silly :o. (I really need to play some more games, I've been spending too much time with my Eldar and Chaos 40K forces lately). Having now sorted that out in my mind, I see where you are coming from, and the plan of defeating ten Wraiths through Combat Resolution won't work. It should work with smaller units of four or five though by my reckoning, would you agree?

Also, I believe that my other main line of attack was to use as much magic against them as possible, so at least I got half of the strategy right ;).

Frankly
15-07-2008, 18:51
10 handgunners for longranged fire

5 outriders...15 shots of strength 4



March block him with huntsmen



How about running 2 x H.gunners + 2 x outriders + 1 cannon.

Put 4 x H.Rifles in your units.

Sit back on the 36" mark and snipe his characters with your rifles and canon.

March block with huntsmen.

Get some stable antimagic in the list, 2 x mages maybe 2 x dispel scrolls.

look at cheap magic items on mounted characters that can get the charge off on wraiths + magic damage + bound spell items.