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FutureEmperor
29-10-2005, 05:45
Hah i knew that would catch your attention.

What if the Tau attacked the Eye of terror, with thier warp projections being almost nothing and thier view of science over psykers, how succesful would an attack on the eye be. (would all the tau go crazy, get massacarred by deamons... or would they shrug off the psykic horrors that usually cause human soilders to weep like baby's, and use thier superior technology to bring those deamon worlds to thier knees.)

i was wonding this, after reading the story where the tau guy kills "slannesh"

Sephiroth
29-10-2005, 06:06
Um, they'd have to cross the entire galaxy first. Their on the opposite side to the Eye of Terror. :eyebrows:

FutureEmperor
29-10-2005, 06:22
I know that, its probably never going to happen. (as soon as the tau expand thier empire to the eye of terror, theres probably going to be too few humans, and the ones that are left would probably be brainwashed with the tau manifesto (i.e. they wouldnt be as chaosy as they were before) so that would mean that the eye would be weaker than it is now and so on and so on. )

but what i was saying was that what if, the tau just teleported next to the cadian gate and continued towards the eye, what would happen...


im not saying is it pluasable im saying is it possible.

Captain Blood
29-10-2005, 07:37
I'm willing to say that they'll go nice and crazy in there. Just because they don't have much of a warp presence doesn't mean that the daemon world forming toothy orifaces and eating entire dropships as they approach wouldn't disturb them. A scientific view of the gibbering horrors won't make them any less horrific.

igotsmeakabob!!
29-10-2005, 08:27
First time I've posted in the background forum.. and I'd say that the Tau don't have the numbers to make an incursion into The Eye. In the instance of the Taros Campaign for example. For the Tau, this one world was very important and its mineral deposits would greatly benefit the empire as a whole. For the imperium it was one little operation in millions, and the loss of the world caused less than a .09 percent drop in the production of one forge world's production of arms and ammunition.

Nazguire
29-10-2005, 09:31
Hah i knew that would catch your attention.

What if the Tau attacked the Eye of terror, with thier warp projections being almost nothing and thier view of science over psykers, how succesful would an attack on the eye be. (would all the tau go crazy, get massacarred by deamons... or would they shrug off the psykic horrors that usually cause human soilders to weep like baby's, and use thier superior technology to bring those deamon worlds to thier knees.)

i was wonding this, after reading the story where the tau guy kills "slannesh"

Apart from the obvious difficulties arriving there...

They wouldn't have the resources, the experience or the guts to fight it out in the Eye. While the Imperium can with some success (due to experience, manpower and plain balls) the au won't be able to due to not having much direct experience with Chaos forces.

Shadowheart
29-10-2005, 09:42
The Tau would be hopelessly lost in the Eye, I think. Even if they came to recognise the existence and the danger of warp space, how would they fight something they have no hold on? What good would their technological manipulation of the physical universe be in a place where the laws of physics are subject to the whim of the Chaos lords? Not much point blowing a hole in a planet that can be changed at any moment anyway.

The only ones that would presumably be at risk are the mortal servants of Chaos which reside in the Eye, assuming they wouldn't be protected by their masters. I'm not sure if there's any point in destroying a daemon's material form in a place where they can manifest so easily. Normally what happens when a daemon is "killed" is that it is banished back to the warp, but in the Eye you're practically in the warp already.

As for the Tau's sanity, I imagine they'd likely lose that pretty quickly. It's a bit like a convinced atheist meeting God himself. Except that all of us humans are at least familiar with the belief in deities even if we don't share it. To the Tau the whole concept of the warp is alien, regarded as something of a superstition of other races. Would they be able to accept the existence of something they can't in any way verify? I expect they would try to find an explanation for what they were seeing the way they're used to, but that would probably be enough to make them lose it.

Lord Balor
29-10-2005, 10:06
Of all the races in the 40K universe, i believe the Tau would have the hardest time in the eye. Every race except the Tau have an understanding of the warp and either make use of its powers or know of ways to counter it. Just because they have a limited warp presence, does not offer any protection of madness or psychic assaults, it merely makes daemonic possession that little bit more difficult. If anything, their lack of psychic abilities would be more of a disadvantage than an advantage as they have no proper way of navigating though the warp, countering sorceries or daemonic hordes.

What the Tau have going for them is their dull light in the sea of souls which makes it difficult for daemon to burst out of them in 'alien' styles.

What they have going against them is lack of numbers, lack of experience with Daemons, knowledge of the materialistic in a realm which goes against everything they know of (This is what will break thier spirit very quickly). They have very little defence against the psyker, the daemon or the traitors that reside within the eye. Their weapons function purely in a materialistic sense and will have little effect on anything but the mortal slaves to chaos.

If you look at Necrons, the closest comparrison for the Tau (Don't make use of the Warp and utilise pure science although much more advanced), they too have a difficult time with thier living gods fearing it more than all other things.

Only one race stands a slight chance of surviving long inside the eye during a campaign and that is the Tyranids as they have the resources and awesome power of the hive mind.

Tastyfish
29-10-2005, 12:36
Course it depends on the powers of disbeleif and daemons. They apparently don't go mad whilst travelling through the warp like a human might so there is a chance that they just won't see the daemons and likewise back at them. Just be two groups there watching everyone else go mad and wondering what all the fuss is about.

Lord-Warlock
29-10-2005, 12:54
I have a feeling that, if the Tau reached the Eye, they would have expanded quite heavily. As in having conquered most of the galaxy (saving the Eye for last, so to speak), beaten off dozens of Hive Fleets, having recruited hundreds of alien races (amongst them very many humans), and probably having experience with Chaos from stolen Imperial lore, Eldar (who I can see forming an uneasy ally with the Tau once they get big enough) and other sources. Their Warp-travel technology would probably have become much more advanced, they might even have seized the Webway.

If anything, a galaxy-spanning Tau Empire could do some serious stuff in the Eye. Not in the least because the scientifically-minded Tau probably would analyze the Pylons to death and come up with something similar to Inquisitor Quixos's old scheme, and just close it down.

Deathmasterskon
29-10-2005, 14:19
1. The Tau can't get there.
2. The daemons proabably wouldn't notice them, given that they have the psychic potential of a dumb squirrel- i.e. Chaos can't see their souls.
3. The Chaos Marines, on the other hand, would massacre them. A lot. 9 Space Marine legions vs. the Tau "Empire". If the Tau sent every Fire Warrior they have, it wouldn't be enough.

Xisor
29-10-2005, 14:47
1- I don't think the Chaos Legions are in any fit state to properly defend the Eye.

2- The Tau aren't the only ones 'in' on this. They have the Niccassar, Demiurg, Kroot and now Humans too. You don't think they wouldn't actually do research into the Etherium?

3- Tau don't travel through the warp, their ships bounce off the void between Warpspace and Realspace and are projected at incredible speeds from there.

4- So long as the Demiurg and Kroot help the Tau maintain a stable Geller Field Equivalent around their ships, the approach to the Eye shouldn't be too bad.

5- If we assume the Tau, by this point, have a demi-galaxy spanning Empire, then they'll already have enountered more than enough Warp Storms and no less than the Maelstorm iself. They'll have some experience by the time they get there.

6- If we assume on the other hand that it's a lone Tau vessel catapulted across space(ooh, there's an interesting one, a Tau Vessel catapulted through time!), then I think there'd be alot more room for madness and insanity and complete ineptitude in these regards.

Essentially, if the Tau go in blind, then yes, I'd wager things would go badly. If they are given time in 'the natural order of things' and nothing completely mad happens then I really don't see how the Tau wouldn't be able to do well. I highly suspect that they'd eventually just decide to do some more research into the Cadian Pylons...

Xisor

CELS
29-10-2005, 15:30
Being hard to possess doesn't really help when a Greater Daemon of Khorne is dropping a three-ton axe on your head. In other words, presence in the warp or not, anyone going in to the Eye of Terror is going to regret it. And don't forget that there are other stuff than daemons in the eye of terror, such as humans, beastmen and, oh yes, tens of thousands of Chaos Space Marines ;)

Xisor
29-10-2005, 16:36
Surely the cunning of mind would take a geller field in with them? And seeing Tau imniaturisation by that point, I can't see why they wouldn't have some form of anti-warp tech.

As for the legions of humans, beastmen, aliens and Chaos Marines...if they can fight them as normal anyway...

Xisor

Inquisitor Maul
29-10-2005, 17:14
But the Tau have allready killed Slaneesh so conquering the eye shouldn't be hard since they can kill Chaos Gods :rolleyes: :p

damz451
29-10-2005, 18:24
the thing is why would they want to go into the eye?, i mean if they conqour the galaxy and the choas forces cant possess them then chaos wouldnt be a threat to them. also if the tau take control wont that affect the other races souls (less chaotic lives make chaos weaker dsnt it?)

Khaine's Messenger
30-10-2005, 00:49
Essentially, if the Tau go in blind, then yes, I'd wager things would go badly. If they are given time in 'the natural order of things' and nothing completely mad happens then I really don't see how the Tau wouldn't be able to do well. I highly suspect that they'd eventually just decide to do some more research into the Cadian Pylons...

Xisor

Yeah, that's pretty much the size of things. If we assume the Tau become a massive powerhouse and have done lots of warp-research*, then they'd probably have a whole stack of trump cards (research into arcane geometries, eg--there obviously are some importances to certain "hexagrammic" and "pentagrammic" shapes with relationship to the Warp, nevermind the obtuse Necrontyr technologies) that would, at the very least, even the odds on top of the 50/50 odds of daemons perceiving them. Otherwise, read Eye of Terror (which is, of course, a highly dubious work, but it does have its high points...). To quote one pants-pissing Commissar: "MEN DON'T DESERVE TO DIE THIS WAY!" ;)

*How much they have done already is, perhaps, a matter of debate....

Gupp
31-10-2005, 06:03
Only one race stands a slight chance of surviving long inside the eye during a campaign and that is the Tyranids as they have the resources and awesome power of the hive mind.

Doubtful. Wouldnt the warp probably interfere with synapse and general hive mind communication? Creatures in ships might even revert to their base insticts and go mad inside their ships.

Lord Balor
31-10-2005, 06:37
Doubtful. Wouldnt the warp probably interfere with synapse and general hive mind communication? Creatures in ships might even revert to their base insticts and go mad inside their ships.

The Tyranids have this going for them:

-Complete and utter Organisation but dependent on synapse control.
-No real mind so madness and terrors of the eye have little to no effect. This is an enourmous factor compared to other races.
-They have more vast resources than any other race to utilise when isolated in the eye.
-The Collective know as the Hive mind is possible the most potent 'psyker' in the 40K universe.

For these reasons i say they have the best chance of lasting the longest of the races in the eye before being defeated as i doubt any force could conquer it from the inside. What It really depends on is if the Hive mind Generates enough warp ''chatter'' to overload and block out other users and thus daemonic manifestations etc. If the Hive Mind's Shadow becomes useless than synapse will fail and the Tyranids go from having the best chance to having the worst chance. Essentially it becomes a battle of psychic will between Hive Mind and Whichever God, Daemon, powerful essence that can be bothered to interfere.

Eldacar
31-10-2005, 10:07
What It really depends on is if the Hive mind Generates enough warp ''chatter'' to overload and block out other users and thus daemonic manifestations etc
But do Daemons need to "manifest" in the warp where they already are to begin with? As to the Hive Mind vs. whichever god, I don't think that the Chaos Gods are quite stupid enough to let such an incursion go by without doing anything about it, be it Tau or Tyranid. They would, IMO, take a hand in it, and that would be the deciding factor. It doesn't matter how much research you've done, if a Chaos God(s) decide to take a hand in it, you will be, for lack of a better term, screwed.

Although the original question was what would happen if they entered it right now in the sense of 40K time. In that case, the Tau would be quickly annihilated.

Oligarch
01-11-2005, 16:55
As far as the Tau are concerned, I agree that at the moment they have no chance of interference in the Eye, even if they could get there.
BUT! Theirs is the fastest growing empire in the galaxy, AND they have the added little bonus that they don't annihilate other races, they absorb them (Kroot, Demiurg, Vespid, Humans etc.). For this reason it is my firm belief that sooner or later we are going to be looking at a galaxy-spanning Tau Empire.
As for the Eye weakening because there are fewer humans, forget it, not gonna happen. Slaanesh was born of the Eldar mind, not humans. All of the Chaos gods can draw equally on every other race in the galaxy except the tau. Thus, since the Tau Empire includes other races "For the Greater Good", the Eye will be undiminished in force.
But, but, but, even if the Tau don't make it, they are (in my not so humble opinion) just another plot by the Old Ones, just another created race, as the Jokaero, Eldar etc. before them.... More will come if the Tau fail.
Possibly even if they don't. I have very little idea as to the extent to which the Old Ones actually agree on things.
I'd wager the Tau will have bigger problems with the Necrons. Now there's a race that they can't persuade to join them. Same goes for Nids btw.

As for Nids making it in the Eye, I agree with the previously uttered statement that it will be a matter of psychic combat between the Hive Mind and the Chaos Gods. I must admit, my money would be on Chaos. Besides, I wouldn't like it much if the Nids won :p

But hey, this is just my opinion. I will probably be proved wrong by some meddling games designer any day now ;)

/Oligarch

Mother_Mercy
01-11-2005, 20:03
How well can anyone fare in an outright assault on Hell?

I'm not sure it is even possible to defeat Chaos within the Eye. The nature of time and space is so mixed up in there that you might just end up on an eternal crusade, much like the Space Wolf 13th Company.

Also, whatever you send in there might not be what comes out again...

Captain Blood
01-11-2005, 21:11
Here's an interesting point, what if they did go in and kick the snot out of the Chaos in there? Of course Friedrich Nietzsche put it best, "those who fight monsters should take care lest they become monsters." Since Chaos corrupts just about everything that is touched by it, and it's pretty much gauranteed that any forces fighting for a long period of time in the Eye would be touched. It wouldn't be hard to see, a conquering army comes home, different from when they went in, but that's to be expected, after all, they fought terrible horrors.

At this point things would go south fast. The new force, possibly guided by the victorious Ethereal would decide that their view of the Greater Good is right. Needless to say, things would be bad. It would be a conflict that would almost certainly mirror the Horus Heresy, in spirit, if not in scale, and could possibly bring an empire down at the hands of their greatest 'heroes'.

When we think of Chaos corruption, we tend to think psionic dominance, daemonic possession, and all the usual, but there's still the minor psychological factors that give the Chaos Gods their power. How hard would it be for the martial pride of a Tau unit that fought off a planet full of daemons to go that extra distance and start up in some subtle Khornate worship? Or perhaps a force, cut off and hopeless, hoping against hope for salvation, any salvation, they'd do and sacrifice, just about anything to make it through for the Greater Good to prevail... enter Tzeentch. Finally, a similar force, perhaps the Ethereal bit it, perhaps not, totally demoralised, they know that they're going to die. At this point, they only go through the motions of fighting. Should they win, they may not feel it was them who won, that they were merely slaves to fate... and Nurgle makes an entrance.

I'll admit that Slaanesh has little on the Tau mindset, but the fact remains that it's not just a physical struggle, they would have to face and win against their inner 'daemons' as it were. If they go in, they better be mentally prepared, lest they fall. They may not be psionically resonant, but that doesn't mean that they won't psychologically fall. If they don't, then there's a saying about how the easiest victories come when the other guy doesn't know he's fighting...

lee909
04-11-2005, 12:21
A good point made about those that fight in hell if anyone has read Knights of dark renown by David Gemmil it would end up with the tau turning into the monsters the destroyed

lee909
04-11-2005, 12:32
Alot is said of the Tau empire and the Humans and other aliens that fight for them but the night of the imperium(space marines and Inquisitions ) will not do this to them the tau are as bad as any other alien.
Also how could they attempted a full scale assault on the eye you cant plan for what is in there as no one knows whats in there, how many planets etc
Look what happened to the Imperium when Horus rebelled.Just think of what daemons may be summoned if the attack took place.
Also the Tau may not be affected by Slannesh and the twisted psychics in the warp but the Kroot and Human allies would.It would be the Heresy again

Xir
04-11-2005, 16:10
A Tau battlegroup that headed into the eye would require Navigators to chart the pathways. Navigators are psychically vulnerable to domination by daemons. This makes the Navigators the weak link in the chain for warpfaring Tau.

I like the idea of the psychological possibilities of falling to Chaos for the Tau. I don't think we really examine those often enough. Chaos worship isn't always about possession and psychic domination. More often it is an unfulfilled need in a person that drives them to the worship of Chaos. It must be a slow process, since if the worshipper knew what he was venerating he might jerk away. No, it must be a betrayal of self in discrete stages. Breaking one little promise makes it easier to break the next one until you finally are breaking big promises without flinching.

trendkill
09-11-2005, 04:44
question.. are the demiurg part of the tau empire now?! :D

feintstar
09-11-2005, 06:53
Negatory, the Demiurg refused to become part of the Tau Empire, but maintain close trade and diplomatic links.

I think that the Tyranids could take on the Eye and win.
Largely beause the scale of the Hive Mind is bigger than that of the Chaos Gods or the emperor or any other psychic entity anywhere ever.

Heresy?

Slaanesh was born out of the fall of the Eldar. The others are older, but it is said that they came out of the psychic machinations of the old ones, perverted bythe nature of the human mind, conflict in general, and the nature of the universe. However, even of all the above, the Chaos Gods remain entities whose origins and worshipers lie entirely within THIS Galaxy.

The Hive Mind, on the other hand, stretches out to encompass living "worshippers" who contribute their psychic force to an entity that has spread across several galaxies, conceivably dozens of galaxies, numbering countless trillions of psychic beings. Furthermore, they are united, unlike the rival squabbling of the split personalities of the fractured followers of Chaos.

Add to this the simply infinite number of nids that can be thrown at the eye of terror, and the Traitors would be overwhelmed, the deamons would be psychically dispelled, and the chaos gods would be forced into oblivion.

They might put up a fight, but at worst, I think it'd be a draw.

The Tau might, in the longest term, be able to deal with the eye, but the means by which they would do so is not a martial form.

I feel that the peace and harmony the Tau could conceivably bring to the galaxy might weaken the raw martial power of the warp, and subsume it by less aggressive forms. By that time, Ynnead might be a force to be reckoned with, and the human race may have gone the way of the Eldar in terms of becoming a broadly psychic race - as such, the brave new world of the Tau could have a marked effect of the dirty old world of the warp.

That plus the pylons.

Mekorig
09-11-2005, 09:27
Just a feet note: The Tau experiment whit Warp technology, whit...bad results. Totally psicotic or catatonic crews. Bad stuff.

Eldacar
09-11-2005, 10:51
However, even of all the above, the Chaos Gods remain entities whose origins and worshipers lie entirely within THIS Galaxy.
Doesn't that imply that every other galaxy that the Tyranids passed through did not know that war existed, or that change existed? Because for the Tyranids to have passed through another galaxy would require them to fight their way through that galaxy, and whatever sentient life forms exist within that "other" galaxy have to have some elements of those instincts that the Chaos Gods thrive on.

Or am I missing something?


The Tau experiment whit Warp technology, whit...bad results. Totally psicotic or catatonic crews. Bad stuff.
They did conduct experiments with Warp technology? When? Where? Can you provide a source? I'd be interested in knowing this, to tell the truth.

Falkus
09-11-2005, 13:10
ust a feet note: The Tau experiment whit Warp technology, whit...bad results. Totally psicotic or catatonic crews. Bad stuff.


What are you talking about? The Tau use warp technology. Their FTL drive skips off of the warp to travel immense distances in real space.

Captain Blood
09-11-2005, 23:40
While they might skip off the warp, they don't go into the warp like everyone else. It's like the diffence between a stone skipping off the surface of the water and a fish swimming through it.

Mekorig
10-11-2005, 01:13
Yep, Captain Blood is right. The Tau get their basic understanding of Warp technology from a crashed ship found in ther main planet moon IIRC. After the incident whit the catatonic crews, they decided to skip the warpspace.

feintstar
10-11-2005, 03:17
I'm not suggesting that the Tyranids have not encountered war before - other galaxies surely have their own sentient races etc, and therefore probably also have their own deamonic equivalents of the Big Four.

What i am saying is that because the origins of the Chaos Gods beknownst to this galaxy are so clearly within this galaxy, warp gods must be a localised phenomenon, and as such, other galaxies literally have thier own warp gods, which may be similar or perhaps even entirely dissimilar to the ones in our own galaxy, depending on the inhabitants. After all, while the old ones were still around, there were no chaos gods, and the Eldar gods ruled in the warp before the fall of the Eldar.

What this amounts to is that the the Chaos Big Four are localised as discreet entities to this galaxy, where the Hive Mind is not, and is therefore prossibly a lot bigger than any of the big four (of this galaxy).

trendkill
10-11-2005, 03:32
if i remmeber reading there are more than 4 chaos gods, but there are only 4 major ones.. i believe its in the 2nd ed version of codex chaos?

Captain Blood
10-11-2005, 04:37
It was also mentioned in the original 3rd ed codex.

trendkill
10-11-2005, 05:02
ah i see, fair enough then. i didnt even know chaos have had 2 codexs in 3rd ed? i did lose interest in gamesworkshop at one point completly.

im sure theyd be based around the 7 deadly sins or whatever.