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View Full Version : Some things I noticed about 5th edition



ReveredChaplainDrake
14-07-2008, 16:21
I had my first game of 5th edition with my Chaos Marines facing off against Loyalist Marines. The mission was Annihilation on a Spearhead deployment. The table had lots of high mountains on it, so Line of Sight was largely restricted for both our shooty armies. (I think it was a LotR table modeled after the area surrounding the Black Gates of Mordor.) There were also a fair amount of Fantasy hills around. There were maybe two or three very narrow fire corridors on the whole table, and neither of us were dumb enough to get in there. Some observations I made that were interesting:

-Daemonic Possession: The new results to passengers means that stunned tanks result in stunned passengers, so if the transport is stunned, the passengers can't shoot, even if they disembark IIRC. This distinction simplifies the Chaos Marine player's choice of Extra Armor vs Daemonic Possession heavily in the favor of Possession. A great choice for the new Rhinos because they suffer Shakes and Stuns a lot due to their armor not being all that durable.

Unfortunatley though, as a whole Daemonic Possession got worse in that Shake and Stun results aren't that common anymore, unless you glance. Extremely effective on Land Raiders, Predators, and Vindicators, but Defilers will probably get less out of it when they can be penetrated a third of the time by Str8 weapons. Soulgrinders will be very happy as Glances will be ignored a third of the time and its 13 armor extends 270 degrees around the front.

-Smoke & Vehicle Cover: My Land Raider never popped smoke that whole game on account of the various mountains and hills on the table offering ample protection.

-Template scattering: I had some problems in my game where my Daemon Princes were getting a bit mauled by lots of Assault Marines. But then I realized another repercussion of template weapons: they can scatter into combat! It didn't actually work though, but I got two direct hits with four Marines under each template.

Armies bad in Assault may want to use more Template weapons with the intention of scattering into CC. The optimum solutions seem to be horde units scattering low-AP templates (they're gonna' die anyway) and elite units with good armor scattering high-AP templates (because a 3+ armor save here and there makes a stray Frag Missile not matter.

-Terrain: I noticed that my Defiler was pathetically pointless because of the new cover system. It was hitting like a Battle Cannon (i.e. scattering wide) and what it did hit got massive cover saves, so I maybe got a few models. This isn't a new problem for Carnifexes though as their Barbed Stranglers didn't have all that much punch to begin with, but Battle Cannons lose a lot of their former AP3 sting. (I noticed many IG players with Basilisks and Leman Russes face similar difficulties.) The Defiler still has a lot of different types of guns and a lot of CC attacks, but that's nothing that Khorne Berserkers and Obliterators can't do for me. The only thing the Defiler does special is deny Kill Points. In light of this, I may be dropping out my Defiler for more Obliterators.

-Infiltration and Dawn of War: After looking at Dawn of War, the closest thing this edition has to Escalation, it's far less intimidating than I first thought because the units that don't go into Reserves or get deployed automatically move on from the table edge on the first turn, so it's not one of these issues where I lose my Flyrant for four straight turns because I can't roll Reserves well, or my Hormagaunts become a speed liability 1/3 of the time because Spinegaunts had twice as many models and were Escalation-proof.

The always Deepstrike thing is neat, but IMO it largely doesn't matter because anybody who's anybody when it comes to Deepstriking (Termies, Oblits, and Grey Knights) can Deepstrike regardless of mission anyway. The Infiltration change, on the other hand, makes Chosen safer to use because I don't have to jump for it and hope for a Gamma mission like last time.

I haven't used the Flank March infiltration rules yet, but I saw a Guard player do it against Eldar. It actually seems pretty reliable because you're going where you want 2/3 of the time, and due to how the odds work, I've actually thought of making a house rule where you pick a "preferred" side for all Flanking units and you deploy there on a 3+, but you go on the opposite side on a 1 or a 2. The odds are exactly the same, it helps when rolling lots of identical units who all Flank March at the same time (and you thought Stealer Shock was broken before...), and it spares memorizing which roll is left flank and which roll is right flank. It's a pretty clunky system that you have to deploy flankers unit-by-unit instead of all at once, but I suppose there are tactical merits to it because you can choose a preferred side after seeing where previous units went.

The biggest problem with Flank March is in the Spearhead mission. If you come up on the wrong side, you're basically out of the game because you've got 36" to cover before you even get into the enemy's deployment zone.

-First turn: The fact that first turn is decided before the game starts puts a lot more thought to deployment than "all fighty units out of LoS, all shooty units in LoS" like last edition. In fact, Infiltration can be used "traditionally" by someone taking the first turn to spectacular effect, possibly even a 1st turn charge. Unfortunately, LoS will be much harder to block, depending on how stringent you are about the holes in ruined buildings, so most Infiltration will be at 18" range. That, or Infiltration-using players are going to start stealing Hills from all the local Dwarf players. Model building skill (or as I abbreviate it "model BS") can be applied by... 'creative tacticians' to allow their Infiltrated units to avoid detection could be used to cloak these models.

-Lash of Submission: The dreaded Lash has one more effect it can now be used for. Pull forward a squad of enemies and string them into a conga line of free 4+ cover saves to anybody shot at through this screen. But this is to slightly compensate for how it gets weaker: enemy units can run away, pinned units can't be lashed, and you can't snipe off sergeants by limiting the killzone.

-No consolidating into CC: Similar to the new Lash trick above, if you have a sizable unit, you can string the models out with your massacre move to block large areas of LoS with their bodies, which can cause even more ill effects to shooty armies than checkerboarding them did in the last edition.

-Space Marine Chaplain: Apparently, the Chaplain rules in the back of the BGB are a misprint, presumably provable because there are many other misprints. For example, if any Eldar player gives you grief about Chaplains actually being WS & BS5, remind them about the "nerf" to their Wave Serpent (p296; read closely). There are also some Daemons glitches as well.

Chaos and Evil
14-07-2008, 16:36
Something I've noticed is that defenders in cover no longer go up to initiative 10, instead the attackers go down to initiative 1.

Using frag grenades makes Inititative values revert to normal.

This means that if attackers use Frag(Assault) grenades when charging, they'll actually strike before the defenders, not simultaniously, as long as their I stat is higher in the first place.

IAMNOTHERE
14-07-2008, 16:36
Good back brief there. I'm looking forward to using the lash as the first thing I do in a turn rather than almost the last.

Shame about the defiler, I'm just building a second.

Durath
14-07-2008, 19:05
Interesting write-up. I too play Chaos Marines as my main army, but I also play Necrons, and used them in a tourney this weekend. So if I may add some additional thoughts on this.



-Daemonic Possession: This distinction simplifies the Chaos Marine player's choice of Extra Armor vs Daemonic Possession heavily in the favor of Possession. A great choice for the new Rhinos because they suffer Shakes and Stuns a lot due to their armor not being all that durable.

Yes, DPoss is indeed a more valued item now! I may start using it.


Unfortunatley though, as a whole Daemonic Possession got worse in that Shake and Stun results aren't that common anymore, unless you glance. Extremely effective on Land Raiders, Predators, and Vindicators, but Defilers will probably get less out of it when they can be penetrated a third of the time by Str8 weapons. Soulgrinders will be very happy as Glances will be ignored a third of the time and its 13 armor extends 270 degrees around the front.

I disagree somewhat. Many armies are glance-happy, (Gauss weapons, and consider the changes to Rending). In all three of my battles this weekend, glances were the norm, not the exception from AV 12 to 14.

Quick Note to people unfamiliar with the Chaos split: Soulgrinders are used with Chaos Daemons, not Chaos Space Marines.


-Template scattering: I had some problems in my game where my Daemon Princes were getting a bit mauled by lots of Assault Marines. But then I realized another repercussion of template weapons: they can scatter into combat! It didn't actually work though, but I got two direct hits with four Marines under each template.

I believe you still can't target a locked unit with a blast weapon, so I'm not sure what you mean here. The only way you can fire on a locked unit, is if you target another unit next to them, and the template just happens to scatter on the combat.


-Terrain: I noticed that my Defiler was pathetically pointless because of the new cover system.

Defilers are jack-of-all-trades units now. Not spectacular at anything, but not really terrible at anything either. With the changes to scattering to BS and blast templates though, they can somewhat resume their artillery role with a little more effectiveness..


-Infiltration and Dawn of War:
Yep. Some cool rules no doubt.


-Lash of Submission:
Lash is neat.


-No consolidating into CC:
This assumes you get enough movement, but sure, its a cool tactic.


-Space Marine Chaplain
Those charts are references, and it even states the Codex takes precidence. I think they are targeted more for the new player to sample what army he/she wants to play. I'd have a good chuckle at someone if they tried to deviate from my army's Codex with these charts.

Brimstone
14-07-2008, 19:07
Something I've noticed is that defenders in cover no longer go up to initiative 10, instead the attackers go down to initiative 1.

Using frag grenades makes Inititative values revert to normal.

This means that if attackers use Frag(Assault) grenades when charging, they'll actually strike before the defenders, not simultaniously, as long as their I stat is higher in the first place.

oh yes which is why all my genestealers now come with flesh hooks as standard in addition to their extended carapace.

IAMNOTHERE
14-07-2008, 21:38
Can anyone explain to me how regrouping when assaulted works? I'm a bit confused as to is it before you move the assaulters or after?

Lord Inquisitor
14-07-2008, 22:06
-Daemonic Possession: The new results to passengers means that stunned tanks result in stunned passengers, so if the transport is stunned, the passengers can't shoot, even if they disembark IIRC.
No, they can disembark and act normally, even if stunned.


This distinction simplifies the Chaos Marine player's choice of Extra Armor vs Daemonic Possession heavily in the favor of Possession. A great choice for the new Rhinos because they suffer Shakes and Stuns a lot due to their armor not being all that durable.
I don't bother with either and I'm much less likely to in the new edition. In any case, I don't see any point at all in taking Possession on a rhino unless you are using it as a razorback equivalent with a havoc launcher or second combi-bolter. If you're just transporting troops, you're still better off with the cheaper extra armour, just as in 4th.


Unfortunatley though, as a whole Daemonic Possession got worse in that Shake and Stun results aren't that common anymore, unless you glance.
Right... although glancing hits have more shaken and stunned results than before, so maybe it won't be that useless. Defilers aren't doing too well out of the new rules, unfortunately (I love defilers, but will probably need to get me a vindicator or a land raider).


-Smoke & Vehicle Cover: My Land Raider never popped smoke that whole game on account of the various mountains and hills on the table offering ample protection.
Well, hopefully we'll see some fairly large terrain pieces. I doubt all games will be the same, most tournie games I see have fairly limited LOS-blocking terrain.


Armies bad in Assault may want to use more Template weapons with the intention of scattering into CC. The optimum solutions seem to be horde units scattering low-AP templates (they're gonna' die anyway) and elite units with good armor scattering high-AP templates (because a 3+ armor save here and there makes a stray Frag Missile not matter.
Or run away from the combat nutters!


In light of this, I may be dropping out my Defiler for more Obliterators.
Damn... What we need is some kind of FAQ ruling that says that LOS has to be traced to the body of the defiler, not the legs.


The always Deepstrike thing is neat, but IMO it largely doesn't matter because anybody who's anybody when it comes to Deepstriking (Termies, Oblits, and Grey Knights) can Deepstrike regardless of mission anyway.
Actually, IIRC, I don't think Obliterators have the "always Deep Strike" rule...


I haven't used the Flank March infiltration rules yet, but I saw a Guard player do it against Eldar. It actually seems pretty reliable because you're going where you want 2/3 of the time, and due to how the odds work, I've actually thought of making a house rule where you pick a "preferred" side for all Flanking units and you deploy there on a 3+, but you go on the opposite side on a 1 or a 2. The odds are exactly the same, it helps when rolling lots of identical units who all Flank March at the same time (and you thought Stealer Shock was broken before...), and it spares memorizing which roll is left flank and which roll is right flank. It's a pretty clunky system that you have to deploy flankers unit-by-unit instead of all at once, but I suppose there are tactical merits to it because you can choose a preferred side after seeing where previous units went.
Hmmm.... I'm pretty scared about this. I hate units that move on from table edges (like those blasted SW scouts and orK infiltrators) because, tactically, there's absolutely nothing you can do about these buggers. Flanks aren't quite so bad, I guess, as you can just stay away from the flanks, but it isn't that easy.

I don't like this at all, seems to me the game is more impacted by dice rolls than actual tactics.


-Lash of Submission: The dreaded Lash has one more effect it can now be used for. Pull forward a squad of enemies and string them into a conga line of free 4+ cover saves to anybody shot at through this screen.
I can't see this being that terribly useful, as the screen unit can move and run out of the way before anyone behind them has to shoot.

Now, lashing units out of the way sounds much better to me!


-Space Marine Chaplain: Apparently, the Chaplain rules in the back of the BGB are a misprint, presumably provable because there are many other misprints. For example, if any Eldar player gives you grief about Chaplains actually being WS & BS5, remind them about the "nerf" to their Wave Serpent (p296; read closely). There are also some Daemons glitches as well.
Hmm. That's a shame. I'd like to see Chaplains and Librarians not being the best fighters in the Chapter. They're chosen because of their inspirational or mental abilities.