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-Ed
23-04-2005, 00:05
I was thinking of expanding my current marine army to encompass the entire fifth company. My problem is in trying to understand the numbers of each. There is the command section (Standard bearer, Iron Father, Iron Captain and an Apocathery) then six tactical squads, two assault, two devestator and support vehicles.

This, assuming that the squads are at full strength, that totals over the 100. I understand that assault squad members can walk off and man land speeders or bikes, but do the crew of the other vehicles detract from tactical or devestator squads ? How many rhinos would a chapter as a whole have access to or is it variable ?

Do each of the tactical squads in the company have heavy weapons, or does the number of heavy weapons detract from the dev numbers ?

Cheers,
Ed

DantesInferno
23-04-2005, 00:17
Most of it is up to you, especially if it is your own custom-designed chapter. For instance, there is no definative answer whether vehicle crews come under a separate division, or are solely crewed by members of a reserve company (ie the 6th).

As a rule, I would say tactical squads would each have thier own heavy weapon without having to borrow the Devastators'. Other than this, however, it is really a matter of personal preference.

He Who Laughs
23-04-2005, 00:20
I'm not the authority on this, but I'll pass on what I know.
Firstly - 100 is a rough number - the HQ Command Squads and Techmarine Adepts, I believe, are in excess of the 100 Marines per company.
You're right about the Assault Marines manning Speeders and Bikes.
The Tanks etc are normally crewed by Techmarine Adepts - and sometimes Devastators (though I can't remember where that 'fact' came from)
Each Tactical Squad has it's own heavy weapons - they don't detract from Devastator squads.
There is a recent debate in another Background thread called "Of Battle-barges and Strike Cruisers" (originally started by myself, but the later pages spiral off into a discussion of Chapter sizes, similar to yours) - so check it out for a more informed response.

He Who Laughs
23-04-2005, 00:25
...however, only Codex Chapters follow this - so as DantesInferno stated - if you're a divergent Chapter, do what you damn well wanna do (ie, in my own Chapter, each company is closer to it's own Chapter in organisation - and nearly all the units in the First Company are Tactical (with True Grit) and the Devastator Squads are simply ad-hoc, drawn from the support elements of the other Tactical Squads when they need them - so in some games, the heavy weapons are smattered around, in others the Tactical Squads won't field any - but they'll be grouped in a Dev Squad lead by an in-formal sergeant) - it's all about flexibility...

inquisitorautry
23-04-2005, 00:34
Since you are using Iron Fathers I'm assuming that it's either the IH, or a chapter from a later founding based on IH. If that's the case then you don't have to worry about codex organization. The IH don't use the codex organization. They have 10 clans that function similar to the battle companies of other chapters. Their organization is based more on what their current Iron-Captain thinks they should have and his style of command, they aren't organized along codex lines.

DantesInferno
23-04-2005, 00:37
I'd say even within (nominally) Codex Chapters there'd be a pretty large variation too. I can well imagine the Ultramarines and another Codex-following chapter having different ways of organising their vehicle crews, for instance.

The way I see it, the Codex Astartes probably gives Chapter Masters a larger amount of autonomy as to organisation etc. Either that, or they find some dodgy interpretative way to get around it.

Seriously, no-one is ever going to have a problem if your 5th Company Rhinos are crewed by members of the 5th Company and not a reserve company, or whatever. The on-the-ground organisation of the Adeptus Astartes is fairly flexible, and the Codex doesn't go around saying stuff like "Thou shalt crew your Rhinos with Marines from Tactical, not Devastator squads".

Rich
23-04-2005, 01:00
I agree. The codex is very much open to interpretation, and Guiilliman was not such a fool as to bind everything completely in iron - inflexibility is a disadvantage of itself.

Personally, I can see diferent chapters crewing their vehicles etc in different ways, with some chapters drawing the crew from the reserve companies, others from the company formation itself, and still others from the loose organisation that is the tech-marines and their adepts.

Minister
23-04-2005, 02:17
I would also point out that vehicles have their own dedecated crew members, although the 6th and/or 7th may provide additional crew when needed. The thousand marines is only an average, and takes into account the fact that marines have a habbit of getting into fights, and often don't all come back.

Delicious Soy
23-04-2005, 14:50
The thousand is based around the line troops, not including the forge, apothercaion, Library or Reclusium, nominally making it possible for a chapter to exceed a thousand members. Though, as Minister said, casualties probably keep most chapters at the correct number, especially the constant flux of the scout company.

Rich
23-04-2005, 15:42
The thousand is based around the line troops, not including the forge, apothercaion, Library or Reclusium, nominally making it possible for a chapter to exceed a thousand members. Though, as Minister said, casualties probably keep most chapters at the correct number, especially the constant flux of the scout company.

I would argue that the scout company is rarely as much as 100 marines in any case, especially considering that the term 'scout' does not include other stages of novice. However it does seem from the BFG fluff that marines crewing starships, vehicles etc. are mostly drawn from either the reserve companies or members of individual companies. Personally, I would say that each company is just over 100 marines strong, including those marines who opperate vehicles - a number reduced by casualties of course.

Delicious Soy
24-04-2005, 06:05
I would argue that the scout company is rarely as much as 100 marines in any case, especially considering that the term 'scout' does not include other stages of novice. However it does seem from the BFG fluff that marines crewing starships, vehicles etc. are mostly drawn from either the reserve companies or members of individual companies. Personally, I would say that each company is just over 100 marines strong, including those marines who opperate vehicles - a number reduced by casualties of course.That kinda was what I meant by flux, the combination of promotions, deaths, the occasional rejection of geneseed and the slow rate of recruitment would mean that the scout company would rarely (if ever) be at full strength. Its my understanding that aside from Dreadnoughts, Comapnies have veichles asigned to them from the forge, but the impact on numbers is much the same anyway.

Rich
24-04-2005, 11:58
I've alays wondered if the scout company is a permanent organisation for anything other than recruitment, because surely scouts would be split amongst the battle and reserve companies in order to receive the training and experience that they need? I suppose that the scout company would include those marines involved in the training of novices, selection of aspirants etc. and would most likely be a strictly logistical formation in many respects, as it would never fight as one complete unit, but rather as individual squads split between other companies.

A logical set up for a company would be:

Captain and command staff (Including Chaplain, Apothecary, Techmarine, Librarian)

5 Tactical Squads (50 marines)

2 Devastator squads (20 marines)

2 assault squads (20 marines)

1 scout squad (10 marines, not strictly part of company formation)

10 marines (spare, as it were) to man vehicles, be assigned to the fleet etc.

Some of the assult marines might also man landspeeders, bikes and so forth, and these would probably detract from the twenty available (or possibly from the ten spares)

The advantage of this set up is that you have about 80 marines across the companies (not including 1st and 10th) to man the fleet (not quite enough, but hey!) and to man vehicles, which goes a long way to explaining where those marines come from.

Delicious Soy
24-04-2005, 15:10
I'd say the scouts function in the same way as the reserve companies, if only a single battle company is required then they will simply take what their captain deems necessary from the scout company. According to all the dispositions I've seen, only chaplains and apothecaries are permanently part of a company, everyone else is under their own independent command (although the chaplains and apothecaries also have the own command).

Consideirng that one comapny would only need a strike cruiser, they'd only really need a detachment of 20-30 marines at most to defend the ship. On the other hand, the Space MArines seem to have a lot of automation in their defenses so its entirely possible that the SM ships have very powerful automated defenses.

Rich
24-04-2005, 15:43
Consideirng that one comapny would only need a strike cruiser, they'd only really need a detachment of 20-30 marines at most to defend the ship. On the other hand, the Space MArines seem to have a lot of automation in their defenses so its entirely possible that the SM ships have very powerful automated defenses.

I think that a strike cruiser would only need five marines or so, as officers. There would probably also be a ship's apothecary, various techmarines and a chaplain, but they wouldn't come from the battle companies but rather from their relevent organisations. Strike Cruisers (and other marine ships) are protected by serfs, and when the marines are on board by a whole company of space marines also.

I often wondered if the veteran company functions as a standard battle company at all, or if it is split amongst other companies in much the same way as the scouts are. I've always assumed that any one time, there would be companies 2-5 fighting large campaigns, and several smaller expedition forces drawn from the reserve companies and acting under a temporary leader, be he Captain, Chaplain, Librarian or senior Sergeant to fulfil a defined role/mission.

PSD
24-04-2005, 16:28
In regards to manning of Space Marine ships, and defence of fortress monastries, failed aspirants often undertake those roles. Not to mention the large number of Servitors, and sometimes human auxiliries (in the case of the ultramarines especially) chapters can employ at need.

Delicious Soy
25-04-2005, 07:26
I often wondered if the veteran company functions as a standard battle company at all, or if it is split amongst other companies in much the same way as the scouts are. I've always assumed that any one time, there would be companies 2-5 fighting large campaigns, and several smaller expedition forces drawn from the reserve companies and acting under a temporary leader, be he Captain, Chaplain, Librarian or senior Sergeant to fulfil a defined role/mission. I'd say the 1st operates much like the scout company unless it was a very large scale war (like most of the chapter being deployed). A large veteran presence might be in a force if their 's going to be ship to ship fighting or a large city battle where the terminators have a defined role. Given that the Captain of a company is likely to have been in the first company at some stage, I'd say alot of the selection process is up to familiarity, ie the captain taking his mates out for a bit of war and gore :p

Rich
26-04-2005, 22:28
My experience with the Dawn of war game has given me new ideas about the vehicles assigned to a Space Marine Company. In the game, you have 20 unit points for infantry - which essentially will net you your ten tactical/assault/devastator squads, plus characters, and you can reduce that number by substituting 'regular' space marine units for scouts or terminators. Vehicles have a similat limit, so a logical combination would be say four predators, two whirlwinds and two dreadnoughts - this seems to me like the amount that the company would have access to, and makes it a lot clearer about how many vehicles a company has.

It also seems to me from dawn of war that specialised units such as assault marines do not perform well unless they are in large formations - say three or more squads - which suggests that their use in company sized attacks (unless as a mobile reserve) would be limited - although supporting their advance with for example landspeeders would help a lot, because they would not be quite so vulnerable.

Typheron
26-04-2005, 23:40
as good as the DoW arrangement is, it cant really be taken as solid fulff due to the fact that a lot of what goes on in there is mainly for game balance.

Also DoW squad sizes are only 9 men standard for the main troops, 4 for the scouts and 8 for the termisnators (why the hell dont my termis get sargents?)

think the best way to figure out what a chapter of space marines is by looking at the fully assembled Ultramarines chapter from the GW nottingham store, although based on the 2nd ed way of working its shown that each company has 100 marines + support on a good day, each tactical squad has a rhino at its side and the command staff are seporate from the rest of the chapter so not counting towards the 1000 total as already said.

If you look in the front of the 3rd ed SM codex you can see it in all its glory,. theres way more than 1000 marines there.

Sai-Lauren
27-04-2005, 09:26
And when you add in the marines who're based on their fleet assets, the numbers just get a whole lot worse. And there's no way the scout company would ever have so few members as to allow the entire chapter including officers to count as 1000 marines, the chapter would never survive any casualties.

My personal feeling is 10 marines per squad, 10 squads per company for compaines 2-8, with a company command staff of 2-3 lieutenants, a company captain (so a single company can run several missions at the same time), company standard bearer (possibly one of the squad marines), and transport pool drivers and gunners.
1st company may have the chapter master as its leader, he may also be separate from the chapter organisation with his own bodyguard.
10th fluctuates in numbers and squad sizes, and its company command staff is veteran sergeants and a senior lieutenant supported by invalided veteran tutors.
The officers of all companies may also have one or two comrades that they've brought up with them as bodyguards in the company command.
Dreadnoughts, chaplains, librarians, apothecaries and techmarines would be separate, but assigned to companies as needed - some may be effectively permenant assignments.
Fleet marines are effectively an 11th company, same layout as the other companies.

As Delicious Soy said, the 1000 is based on the line marines - those in squads. The command staff and auxilaries would not be counted, but would also have their own structure from the great book of Guilliman.

Delicious Soy
28-04-2005, 01:31
The problem is according the Codex Astartes positions in the fleet are usually given to infrim marines, ie those too old for frontline service. Though I guess it depends on what the marines defined as infirm. Itss entirely possible that it means that the marine can only go a month without sleep, food or water, instead of a year or something. More probably a battle company captain simply factors fleet defense when he requisitions marines from the reserves.

Rich
28-04-2005, 10:34
I've always assumed that those marines choosen to command warships are very different in mentality to their normal brethren - they are after all content to fight from afar, andnever see their enemy up close, face to face. They must also understand strategy in a completely different manner to regular marines, and in many ways the fleet requires a completely different kind of personality.

Delicious Soy
28-04-2005, 11:12
I've always assumed that those marines choosen to command warships are very different in mentality to their normal brethren - they are after all content to fight from afar, andnever see their enemy up close, face to face. They must also understand strategy in a completely different manner to regular marines, and in many ways the fleet requires a completely different kind of personality.
Not really, I imagine that those marines that spend a lot of time as Devastator Sergeants or tank commanders would be well versed in establishing fire lanes and the like. Plus they'd probably be the ones most likely to make it to retirement age and become eligible for such positions.

Rich
28-04-2005, 14:36
Not really, I imagine that those marines that spend a lot of time as Devastator Sergeants or tank commanders would be well versed in establishing fire lanes and the like. Plus they'd probably be the ones most likely to make it to retirement age and become eligible for such positions.

Space battle is far diferent to land battle though. Apart from the difference in dimensions (there is no real 'up' or 'down' in space because there is no gravity, the units involved are completely different. A ship doesn't fight simply to destroy the enemy, and ships are gargantuan entities with great skill required in coordinating engines, void shields, weaponry as well as any ordnance at the same time, whilst appreciating the tactical nuances of space battle. A tank is in contrary a self-contained unit, where the crew are in direct contact and even when tank battles are being fought out, there are far less considerations in mind than there are when fighting a space battle. I just think that space battles require a certain mindset, and recognition of that mindset and nurturing of it by placing a novice marine unter tutelage as part of a ship's company would be the best way to ensure experienced, competent fleet commanders and crew. Even the experience of zero-G warfare would be invaluable.

Delicious Soy
29-04-2005, 00:07
I'd say that the nuances of space warfare are part of the training once a marine reaches high command, so they can lead no matter the situation. It also doesn't take long for a marine to learn what probably takes years in the fleet academies, hypnotherapy and subliminal indoctrination and all. Plus they'd gain a lot of experience in it from being in battle so often, most marine operations are carried out without the IG or NAvy so the fleet phase of a campaign would often be carried out by the marines themselves.