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Limenix
15-07-2008, 08:27
Per roumors the new Dark elf dragon breath weapon
has the following effects.

STR 3 and if a unit suffers any wound it must pass
a Ld test at -3 or NOT charge next turn.
Correct?

OK.Scenario.

A Druchii Lord on dragon lands before a nice frenzied unit
with a character in it.
Lets say Savage orcs with a savage orc hero.

Dragon breathes fire and does a single wound.
With STR3 believe me it's all it's gona get.;)

Now. Orc turn. What happens?
Must the savage orcs pass a test or does frenzy negate that test?
Lets say frenzy doesn't negate the -3 ld effect.
But the orc player has an idea.
If he declares a charge ONLY with the orc hero , who leaves the unit and charges out of it , must he take the test himself?
Some spells stop effecting heroes if they leave theyr unit.
Curse of years comes to mind.
Ok that's it.

Dominatrix
15-07-2008, 08:37
Well to give you a more definite answer the exact wording from the DE book would be required. I have some theories about how I believe the breath weapon will work, but they are not worth much since I don't have the book in my hands yet. Maybe one of the lucky few who already have it could clear the situation up?

Lijacote
15-07-2008, 08:57
ItP does not mean immune to LD-tests, and if they can not charge, they can not do the Frenzy thing. So, if they fail their test, they can't charge. I think it's pretty clear-cut. Then again, that's not really what you asked.

I don't think Breath Weapons are magic, so I don't think the hero should be able to charge. Then again...

Festus
15-07-2008, 08:57
Hi

If the Breath is the Ice Breath, the unit is frozen. Thawing units don't run or charge (I do not have the DE book yet, so I am not sure)

Limenix -

It is not a spell but a weapons effect, so the whole unit including characters will be affected (as a character is part of the unit it joins in all respects).
Spells, BTW, can be kept with the unit or the charging character if the character leaves the unit - it is the casters choice. BRB, p.110

Festus

Limenix
15-07-2008, 11:32
I never said it was a magical attack.
The Q was if frenzy units are immune to its effect
and if it will affect single characters charging out of a unit that
has to pass the -3 Ld test.

JonnyTHM
15-07-2008, 11:33
Also, (again limited by not seeing the rule) something to remember is that splitting effects like that doesn't happen until the character leaves the unit. It's important that a character issuing a charge out of a unit is still subject to all the spells/effects on that unit until he executes the charge. Therefore: most likely the hero is unable to charge as he's still subject to the restriction on the unit until he leaves it (which he wouldn't be able to do via a charge).

Gazak Blacktoof
15-07-2008, 12:56
There are several effects that can prevent frenzied units from charging. As an orc and goblin player you should of course know that animosity can stop a unit from moving altogether and even prevent the compulsory movement of squig hoppers. I think the dragon dreath works in a similar but more limited fashion in that it will only prevent the unit from charging and not prevent it from moving at all.

I was reading through the bulding rules this morning after a game we had yesterday lead to some confusion and we realised we had no idea what we were doing with the building rules. To cut a long story short a unit in a building can't charge, this menas that even a unit subject to compulsory movement can't declare a charge on an enemy unit if it is in a building and must stop an inch away if they would otherwise make contact with an enemy unit as they leave the building.

Similarly (and more correctly applicable to the bragon breath question) a building can only be assaulted by a single unit at a time. If two frenzied units are forced to charge the building only one of them must do so and the other is free to move as normal unless there was another target it was forced to charge. Additionally a frenzied unit inside a building isn't forced to declare a charge out of the building as they can not declare a charge.

My point is that there is precedent within the rules for situations when compulsory movement or frenzied charges aren't quite as compulsory as they otherwise would be and the effects of a black dragon is one of them.

EDIT: Lastly I agree with the assertion that the frenzied character in the unit is subject to the same rules as the unit and can not be compelled, nor choose, to leave the unit via a charge move.

I think its also reasonable to conclude that even if the character vacates the unit in the movement phase and is subsequently affected by a spell or other effect that compels him to charge he would still be unable to do so (the dragon's breath lasts for an entire turn). As pointed out already it is only spells that must choose a target if the original target splits, though I'd probably agree to apply those rules if my opponent felt it was appropriate.

EvC
15-07-2008, 13:23
Frenzied units must charge, with the condition that any such charge must be possible. If there is something preventing them from charging, be it the fact that there is no unit within charge range, or some other effect that is stopping them from charging, then they can't charge.

niox
15-07-2008, 23:54
If a unit with "Immune to Psychology" takes wounds from the breath attack it wont suffer any additional effects.
They donīt have to take the LD test and are free to act as normal.
A Frenzied unit is immun to psychology.

- p. 57 Dark Elves. Noxious Breath.

Malekith Fist
16-07-2008, 03:12
Indeed, what was said above.
However I can't help but note that any self-respcting DE general would do this from a flank or rear. I can't think of any time I'd put my lord in a charge arc of a frenzied unit.

Not knocking you-just a thought that I had to release.

Czechsensation
16-07-2008, 03:16
Noxious Breath is also S4.

Loopstah
16-07-2008, 12:33
If a unit with "Immune to Psychology" takes wounds from the breath attack it wont suffer any additional effects.
They donīt have to take the LD test and are free to act as normal.
A Frenzied unit is immun to psychology.

- p. 57 Dark Elves. Noxious Breath.

Immune to Psychology only means you automatically pass Fear, Terror and Panic tests and can't be broken by outnumbering fear.

Frenzied troops would have to take the Ld test, and could fail it because it is not one of the tests listed above.

Immune to Psychology is not Immune to Leadership tests.

Solid State
16-07-2008, 13:00
You misunderstand. Noxious Breath has a specific clause in it, in that ItP models disregard the Leadership test.

Loopstah
16-07-2008, 13:07
You misunderstand. Noxious Breath has a specific clause in it, in that ItP models disregard the Leadership test.

Ah, in that case it's a bit rubbish then isn't it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-07-2008, 13:18
Yes. Because everyone and their brother is now Frenzied or Immune to Psychology...

I think it's pretty awesome myself. Fantastic way to setup charges for your Chariots in the next turn whilst the Dragon goes off to attack it's main target.

Loopstah
16-07-2008, 14:08
Yes. Because everyone and their brother is now Frenzied or Immune to Psychology...


I'm a bit biased, as a VC player all my units are Frenzied or Immune to Psychology. :D

AUN'SHI
16-07-2008, 16:00
Maybe just 1 little question comes to mind lets say a lord/hero is in the unit and he/she is not frenzied/immuned to psychology can the unit opt to leave him/her or does the unit still test?

Gazak Blacktoof
16-07-2008, 16:04
A character joinging an ITP unit gains ITP. See p. 78 of the BRB.

Solid State
16-07-2008, 18:50
It should be noted it doesn't restrict other movement however, only charging is mentioned.