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The Royals
15-07-2008, 20:34
Well im building myself a orc hoard and wanted some black orcs (group of 20 to be exact) but ive heard much complaining about how "black orcs get shot to bits", "they are barely any more durable than orc boyz" "they arnt worth their points" so on and so such and i was wondering in comparison to other races are black orcs really that elite?

Shamfrit
15-07-2008, 20:37
Their eliteness within the Orc & Goblin list is their ability to take a magic banner, and the fact that they have access to Great Weapons and that makes them fairly 'choppy,' but, I know your pain. They're expensive, they have the same armour as other boys (I don't bother with shields because two choppas or Great Weapons makes that a little pointless.) and on the charge they're pretty effective.

Consider them squig bait in all other circumstances. You're better off taking one solid unit to carry Mork's Spirit Totem and leaving it at that. If only there was a missile ward banner in the Orc & Goblin list...

I'm starting to sound like the rest of Warseer now, lol.

Storak
15-07-2008, 21:10
Well im building myself a orc hoard and wanted some black orcs (group of 20 to be exact) but ive heard much complaining about how "black orcs get shot to bits", "they are barely any more durable than orc boyz" "they arnt worth their points" so on and so such and i was wondering in comparison to other races are black orcs really that elite?

their main advantage is not being affected by animosity. (and the banner, as Shamfrit said. if you have some special plans.)

the disadvanatge is costing 2 times what a normal orc does, making them a prime shooting target.

in combat they seem ok'ish. you could compare them to swordmasters: the BO with extra shields (you ll want those for the shooting) and fighting with 2 choppas is 1 point cheaper and S5 (first turn) and T4. the elves are WS6, same strength, T3 and strike first.
they would perform alright, if some models would survive the first strike... (but get even worse on second turn of combat..)

their real advantage over the swordmasters is more resilence against shooting.

Kaos
15-07-2008, 21:29
I use a block of 19 Blorcs with my warboss in it and it works really well. Give the unit shields and they can use the right combo of weapons at the right time.. (armed to da teef rule)Either lots of armor with 3+ save in the front if charged by something nasty, or 2 choppas charging weaklings or great weapons against tough enemies. Giving the unit either banner of butchery or waagh banner is a great thing indeed. Butchery have saved me many a time making paste of the oposition. Or use the waagh bannner on the turn you call out WAAAAAGh!! with your warboss adding 2d6 to your movement one turn.

Now..getting shot up? Yes indeed they will be if you let the enemy do just that. Nothing in the O&G army is designed to take care of business itself. So send a bunch of other stuff in the way or hunt down the shooty stuff. You got a full list of things to do it. Wolfriders, spiders, chariots, giants or whatever your choice is. You can even use some magic or warmachines on your own in combination to crush the bad guys hurting your black orcs..Whats your choice..big stones..spears..a big green foot out of the thin air? :D

I say nothing is bad until you make it so in the orc and goblin army. Go black, you wont go back.

cheers
kaos

semersonp
15-07-2008, 21:35
black orcs

the good:
no animosity
+1 WS, +1 S, +1 AS, +1 LD vs. regular boy
auto-move on waaagh!

the bad:
roughly 2x the cost of a regular boy unit with 25% fewer models
use up a special slot
missle magnet

the intangible:
cool models
heavy

---

thats kind of as far as it goes... a unit of 20 you say? lose 1 model and you're down to a +2 rank bonus... i'd say go for at least 25 if you go for them at all...

black orcs have slowly made their way out of my 2250 rotation and make it into my 3k force only for the fact i can't fit that many models on the table without them...

they are 14 points a model... and only 1 cheaper than phoenix guard or any of the other he elite... the same cost as a chaos warrior... i don't think they're worth it, personally...

if i have to choose between a 400 point black orc unit or a 105 point squig hopper unit that will do far more disruption and damage... squigs it is :)

Shimmergloom
15-07-2008, 21:45
squig hoppers are so much better it's not even funny.

And again, they are only immune to animosity insofar as the units around them passing their animosity test. It only takes one screening unit to fail, for the black orcs to be stuck sitting around doing nothing just like everyone else.

Conotor
15-07-2008, 21:46
They are immune to animosity, and not very vulnerable to shooting. (Nothing in the O&G list is vulnerable to shooting except fast cav.)

1 unit to keep a BSB safe could be worth it. Keep in mind they automatically get WAAAGG, so if u add a few other charactures u can often get a nice charge off.

Gobbo Lord
15-07-2008, 21:49
They are elite for Orcs. I use a unit of 12 with Gorks Waaagh Banner to take a flank and surprise charge. They are awsome models but taking up a special slot is a disadvantage as there are more usefull things (Chariots spring to mind).

Go forit if you want a big unit, 20 of them attract missles because the opponent percieves them as a threat, perhaps more so than they are.

They dont flee when the rest of your army does, and are good against enemy core units, they come up short against enemy elites (And core deamons which are the same points as them yet infinently better...)

They are good depending how you use them at the end of the day. You shouldnt listen to comments on here about which troops to take etc as its al relative to the player, and if everyone followed everyones advise the game would become very boring. Every race would have armies that were identical. Youd never see Boar Boyz or Goblin units and rather than the rich diverse world it should be, itd feel like history repeating every time you came up against army x and they always have, no matter who the player, the same unit pattern and same everything else.

Shamfrit
15-07-2008, 21:49
squig hoppers are so much better it's not even funny.

And again, they are only immune to animosity insofar as the units around them passing their animosity test. It only takes one screening unit to fail, for the black orcs to be stuck sitting around doing nothing just like everyone else.

This has happened to me so many times it's not even funny...:eek:

---

If you've the time invest in a unit of 25...try them out, it's the best you can do. If not, go for an extra unit of boyz and some hoppers.

Canadian_Khan
15-07-2008, 22:35
I use my 15 black orcs, which I consider weak for their points, exactly at the opposite as everyone else would think I would: Bait.

Now I see the revolution going my way... they are the elite of the O&G army... infantry at least...

BUT, I have in my army at least 4 20+ regiments of either NG or Orc Boyz. They have plenty of time to advance an it by the time the Black Orcs had attracted 1....2... or even 3 regiments! People playing other armies are normally to think of them as the orquish equivalent of swardmasters... which we knew is not the truth...

So 15, telling them to do as much damage as possible before dying... and by the time they do, I usually get a good flank charge with either my NG with nets or orc boyz with 2 choppas...or even my general on chariot or squig hoppers, they don't negate ranks, but normally, my black orcs do not attact big regiments... mostly elites :)

Shimmergloom
15-07-2008, 22:37
Happened to me in the last game I played. It was a larger 3500pt battle. Turn 1, 2 hopper units failed animosity and my black orcs were forced to sit there. Couple this with the fact that I had to place the black orcs on my left, instead of the center, because he had 2 scraplaunchers on a hill(which killed 11 orcs from my general's orc unit in turn 1 and would have killed 11 black orcs if they'd been in the center) and the black orcs pretty much took no part in the battle.

Here's the battle report I made if anyone is interested.

http://z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=22454

semersonp
15-07-2008, 22:41
hmm, when did squig hoppers start taking animosity tests?

Tadite
15-07-2008, 22:51
Black Orks are the worst "elite" infantry unit in the game.

Tadite
15-07-2008, 22:52
[QUOTE=semersonp;2782058]hmm, when did squig hoppers start taking animosity tests?


They always did.

Kaos
15-07-2008, 22:52
hmm, when did squig hoppers start taking animosity tests?

When they where 5 or more models. and not being snotlings, giants trolls or black orcs. Or a warmachine.

Shimmergloom
15-07-2008, 22:57
Page 1 of the bestiary lists who does not take animosity tests. Squig hoppers and herds are not listed as immune. Therefore they take them.

Heretic Burner
15-07-2008, 23:11
BO aren't elite they're special. As in short bus "special". Leave them on the shelf unless they just so happen to be a character.

semersonp
15-07-2008, 23:49
as mentioned, they are useful in 3000+ games on a 4x6 board... otherwise you have no room to deploy...

i'ma go start a squig hopper / animosity thread! :)

Arguleon-veq
16-07-2008, 01:23
I would advise against a large unit.

I did run a unit of 20, it just didn't really work for me. The auto Waagh and no animosity is great but they often lost combat anyway, they have lost to Grave Guard, Longbeards, White Lions lately as a unit of 20 and this when I was getting the charge.

I have since changed the unit to 12 [2x6] with the Banner of Butchery. It has been working quite well for me, last game slaying an Archmage and unit of White Lions. It makes the unit Champion a character killer and causes enough damage to break most units fairly easily. Always take shields.

TheDarkDuke
16-07-2008, 02:43
Black Orks are the worst "elite" infantry unit in the game.

Wait what? I am pretty sure there are a fair amount of "worse" "elite" infantry in the game.

At this point in time:
Chameleon Skinks
Chosen Warriors
Stormvermin
Plague Monks
Anything Empire lol
Ironbreakers
"Most" upgraded Saurus

These are just off the top of my head... and I won't go in to even more "worse" "elite" units that are not infantry.

PS: And I do play Skaven and use both Stormvermin and Plague Monks, and my bro uses Chosen and upgraded Saurus.

Braad
16-07-2008, 06:45
I dare anyone who doubts black orcs for a 'eadbutting contest!

They are probably the most used unit in my army. Everyone fears them. Capable of withstanding charges that any other unit would be broken by.
I always give them the banner of butchery. That gives them just that little bit of nasty edge when they really need it.
I also nearly never put a general in it, or another boss for that matter, to prevent them from becoming a too tempting target to shoot at.
But more than any other unit in my army they do what I want them to do an' dads to chop some humies (or whatever)!

Skitter-Squeek
16-07-2008, 08:41
I frikken Love Black Orcs. I use a Unit of 30 of them though with Sheilds and MOrcs Spirit Totem. They Ruin whatever they touch and usually arrive at full strength due to my other Nastier Units.



Skitter Squeek

Nephilim of Sin
16-07-2008, 09:01
Black Orcs have always made their points back for me, and I don't see where this Black Orc hate is coming from. Either as being a distraction, or in combat, they are a vital part of my list at 2000 pts. At 3000, I take three units.

Shields are essential not only for shooting, but for the main advantage of being able to choose what weapon you are using for the combat. Against low toughness elves, just go HW+Shield.

They are versatile, immune to Animosity, and if you are having problems with them getting stuck, you need to rethink your deployment. Now, I do have problems with units getting stuck, but never my Black Orcs.

Granted, I count on them losing a rank or two before they get into combat, but when they get there, it usually does not matter. Plus, the models are sweet.

As for as orcs are concerned, they are the elite of the elite.

isidril93
16-07-2008, 09:06
well it depends. if you take 1 unit then obviously they will get shot. BUT if you take 2 or 3 then more will make it. and they are quite good but forget comparing them to someone like swordmasters

Braad
16-07-2008, 17:30
The only problem with taking more than 1 is that you get less artillery and (more or less) heavy cavalry. But indeed, its a problem you should be able to live with.

In my last game, I had two big blocks. They performed quite nicely. I lost only by 200 points or something (2000 pt game) and I think one of the main reasons is that I estimated that about half of both armies was destroyed by fanatics.

jpf1982
17-07-2008, 15:09
I can't attest to the ability of this idea because I haven't tried yet; but I've got a tourney coming up at the beginning of next month. I'm going to run 2 or 3 small blocks of 8-10 B.Orcs and try to use them as just flank blocks kind of like how the empire run their detatchments. Maybe it'll work; maybe not; but we'll find out.

If anyone has tried this before and had any luck with it or suggestions about it; let me know.

OldMaster
17-07-2008, 16:46
Wait what? I am pretty sure there are a fair amount of "worse" "elite" infantry in the game.
Chosen Warriors


I lol'd at this one. You actually put the best of them into the list of worst >.>

Heretic Burner
17-07-2008, 23:36
I lol'd at this one. You actually put the best of them into the list of worst >.>

Yes there were certainly some very good choices in that list posted. BO are absolutely ghastly in comparison.

Arguleon-veq
18-07-2008, 00:10
Black Orcs are one of my fave units in the game and I always take them but i have to say that I think some of you are way off in thinking that large units of them work or are worth their points in an even remotely competative environment.

Halelel
18-07-2008, 00:21
A guy at my LGS absolutely loves to run Grimgor and his unit of Black Orcs. His strategy isn't to win combats or the game with the unit, but to use the unit to dictate where the enemy goes (as they avoid it) and to attract all the missles/artillery/magic as well.

It works pretty well against people playing him for the first time.

Other than that, I don't know anyone who really runs Black Orcs as hoppers seem to be the prevalent choice nowadays.