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IronNerd
15-07-2008, 23:13
So I'm sitting here painting up the massive Tau army I picked up last 'Ard Boyz, and my mind starts wondering towards this years. A lot of things have changed since the last time around... Anyway, the general point I was thinking of is what are the power builds going to be? As many arguments as there are for "using balanced lists", well, I just don't see that being the winning army in 'Ard Boyz play.

My first thought is orks. I personally think Gaz-ghull (I have no idea how that's spelled, I've barely read the new 'dex) is a tad broken. An 18" assault on 180 boyz is crazy... and that's only like half your army points-wise. I don't know what the best way to fill everything out would be, but that alone scares me. Perhaps Chaos with 30 termies with combi-plasma? That would be pretty solid... Anyway, what are your thoughts?

njfed
16-07-2008, 00:41
One thing I could see happening is daemons going on a roller coaster ride. After the first GT of the year, they may get some good or bad reviews. I expect many people to struggle against them at first. Then people will learn the tricks to fight them and the complaining will be shot down with cries of "learn to play, noob." By next year there should be a few well established power builds. My guess...Tzeentch and maybe Khorne. Nurgle will be too slow and slaanesh too fragile for all but the truly dedicated who will take the time to study them in detail.

Sekhmet
16-07-2008, 00:51
Necrons are going to get utterly destroyed by assault armies now - you can't rely on your squad of Warriors surviving the combat to be 'ported out. Thus, lots of 10-man warrior squads and monoliths might be the only way to run Necrons.

TheDarkDuke
16-07-2008, 01:15
Necrons are going to get utterly destroyed by assault armies now - you can't rely on your squad of Warriors surviving the combat to be 'ported out. Thus, lots of 10-man warrior squads and monoliths might be the only way to run Necrons.

I think this point is why you will start seeing more flayed ones and wraiths more. Think of what a wraith can accomplish now. Send him in the way of a cc unit that will be getting to your warriors next turn. That wraith is gonna get beaten down good, but no moving into fresh combat. Result is a nice rapid fire range for that warrior unit, as oppose to being in combat.

IronNerd
16-07-2008, 01:19
I've never really seen Necrons as being able to compete with other true power builds. I mean, don't get me wrong, Necrons can be VERY good... and they did win the 'Ard Boyz last time around (somehow...), but I've never been afraid of facing a Necron player. Still a bit of a valid point however, you won't see near as many Necrons this time through. As far as Daemons are concerned, I can definitely see some powerful builds there. The problem with Daemons is inconsistency. With the army 1. split and 2. all DSing, I see some problems arising.

Sekhmet
16-07-2008, 01:28
I've never really seen Necrons as being able to compete with other true power builds. I mean, don't get me wrong, Necrons can be VERY good... and they did win the 'Ard Boyz last time around (somehow...), but I've never been afraid of facing a Necron player. Still a bit of a valid point however, you won't see near as many Necrons this time through. As far as Daemons are concerned, I can definitely see some powerful builds there. The problem with Daemons is inconsistency. With the army 1. split and 2. all DSing, I see some problems arising.

I'd beg to differ, the only problems Necrons had were demon bombs and now the new demon codex. Everything else is either fair or fairly easy for Necrons, depending on the point level.

At 1000 points and below, Necrons are arguably the worst army in the game. At 1500-1750, Necrons can dominate. At 2000 they are worse, and at 2500 they're a lot worse, which is why the Necron guy who won surprised me too.

IronNerd
16-07-2008, 01:34
At 1000 points and below, Necrons are arguably the worst army in the game. At 1500-1750, Necrons can dominate. At 2000 they are worse, and at 2500 they're a lot worse, which is why the Necron guy who won surprised me too.

I suppose I should have elaborated... At 2500 points, Necrons just don't quite measure up as well with the other races. I think part of this is due to the fact that they have such little variety in their lists. The way I see it, there are only 3 ways to play. Immortals, Destroyers, or Monoliths. Regardless of what you do, there are enough toys in the other army to deal with any of these. I would definitely agree that, played well, Necrons are rock hard at 1750.

TheDarkFlame
16-07-2008, 02:07
At 1500-1750, Necrons can dominate. At 2000 they are worse, and at 2500 they're a lot worse, which is why the Necron guy who won surprised me too.
By worse, do you mean worse to fight, or worse to play?

Oh, and love the sig btw. When life gives you lemons...

Sekhmet
16-07-2008, 02:57
By worse, do you mean worse to fight, or worse to play?

Oh, and love the sig btw. When life gives you lemons...

They aren't good to play as.

Danny Internet
16-07-2008, 04:28
I think this point is why you will start seeing more flayed ones and wraiths more. Think of what a wraith can accomplish now. Send him in the way of a CC unit that will be getting to your warriors next turn. That wraith is gonna get beaten down good, but no moving into fresh combat. Result is a nice rapid fire range for that warrior unit, as oppose to being in combat.

Think of how easily a squad of wraiths is downed by even bolter fire and you might think twice about taking this mediocre unit. And Flayed Ones, well, I personally don't like giving myself a handicap before the game even begins. They are just terrible--always have been, probably always will be. It's generally a bad idea to field close combat units that aren't good in close combat.

Scarabs do what you described much, much, much better (and for less points).

WallWeasels
16-07-2008, 04:33
I assumed Flayed Ones might make a use what with deep-strike being less suicidal and infiltrate being able to out-flank. But still, It think scarabs do the job better

thenurgler
16-07-2008, 04:37
Scarabs now have a 2+ cover save while turbo boosting... awesome.

rocdocta
16-07-2008, 04:46
i actually didnt have a problem vs deamons. my destroyer armada was fast enough to take them apart piece meal in the last edition. it will be interesting to see how they go in 5th...

Danny Internet
16-07-2008, 05:11
I assumed Flayed Ones might make a use what with deep-strike being less suicidal and infiltrate being able to out-flank. But still, It think scarabs do the job better

Deepstriking large squads is more dangerous than it was in 4th edition--if even one model can't be placed then you roll on the mishap table.

Frgt/10
16-07-2008, 10:34
Scarabs now have a 2+ cover save while turbo boosting... awesome.

LOL i completely forgot that swarms get +1 to cover, thats freaking cool :chrome:

x-esiv-4c
16-07-2008, 10:52
I see Epi lists becoming very popular in 5th.

alphastealer
16-07-2008, 12:05
One build I am going to try is the trio of elite carnifexes with scything talons and barbed stranglers.

They no longer needs the BS upgrade as the strangler should always hit (something), so 3 of them should cause major hassles for troops and light/medium vehicles.

Not a bad spend of 339pts!

IronNerd
16-07-2008, 12:10
One build I am going to try is the trio of elite carnifexes with scything talons and barbed stranglers.

They no longer needs the BS upgrade as the strangler should always hit (something), so 3 of them should cause major hassles for troops and light/medium vehicles.

Not a bad spend of 339pts!

I was just thinking of things like this this morning. A barbed strangler based army could be pure gold in 5th ed. with the new blast rules. Put in a few outflanking genestealers for annoyance, a few for taking objectives, and fill up on blast/ordinance templates.

Yayale
16-07-2008, 12:18
With Necrons I must say they are ***** in small battles as said earlier, I mean in small battles say 500-600 points you literally get no choice in what you field, a 5th of your points is instantly gone on your lord, when they make a new codex they really need to bring out a cheaper HQ choice!!! I also agree that wraiths and flayed ones are crap! Never have they done much for me, I don't think I've ever gotten their points worth!

I personally like a lot of destroyers in smaller games, their cheaper per shot than warriors, the shots are more powerful, unfortunately the lower numbers let them down as it's easier to wipe a squad out and prevent we'll be back.

High point games, necron Lord, res orb and veil of darkness. 10 immortals. Every turn you can deep strike and wipe out another squad. Works really well against tau, for some reason though IG just maim them, they have so many shots it doesn't matter that they are pathetic they just overwhelm them. Just don't deep strike off the board loosing 500pts worth on turn two kinda takes away victory!

The_Outsider
16-07-2008, 13:59
IMO DE are still up there with power builds, even if GW is determined to make half of their codex unusable.

A good old fashioned WWP kabal list (now with more warriors and less wyches!) can do fantastically in 5th ed (namely the change to moral when losing combat) and with disintegrator minimal fire being S4 (and ap3 no less) DE can quite easily have an obscene amount of mobile firepower as opposed to other vehicles.

The WWP alone is a unbelievably huge advantage now working out deployment/first turn has changed.

DE suffers a bit at KP, but so does everyone really.

Stingray_tm
16-07-2008, 14:01
6 Carnifexes. 2 Hive Tyrants. Rest: Genestealers.

==Me==
16-07-2008, 14:12
Assassin 'stealers are looking really nice. Scything Talons, Flesh Hooks, and Scuttlers gives you a bunch of rending goodness coming off the flanks to munch on things. Add in a Broodlord for your HQ and a couple Lictors and you won't deploy anything!

Hashmal
16-07-2008, 14:35
I agree that a traditional Dark Eldar list is still amongst the top of the top when it comes to point-per-point nastiness. I still don't think you'll see them winning 'ard Boyz this year; past 2000 points, the cheapness of the standard DE units works against them and it's blessed hard filling out those extra 500 points to be as killy as some other armies' use of the same points.

That said, though, I've been compiling a list of the pros and cons of the Dark Eldar codex with 5th edition. Here's a smattering of what I've seen/thought up/pulled straight from betwixt my cheeks, bad first:

Cons:
-Skyboard and Jetbike fleet cheese has been removed. To be fair, not a nerf really. If you played this way, chances are nobody liked you for it. :cheese:
-True LOS. DE loved their area terrain invisi-shield. It will be missed.
-Wych Weapons reduced in effectiveness. Not huge, as 1/6th fewer hits (not counting a reroll combat drug result) isn't a big, big deal. It does make them less nasty, though.
-Reaver Jetbikes/Hellions can't play the last turn dash-and-take in objectives games. Sure, they can still contest, but the DE were almost undisputed kings of doing the ol' "Speeder Grab" the SM loved so much.
-Older power lists became tougher to play. Old standard was to have 2x Haemonculi running WWPs invisible in your army as they are ICs and were thus untargetable if not the closest. Now, unless linked, those suckers get drilled. They can't link to anything truly resilient, so it is possible to eliminate both ICs via shooting, thereby preventing WWP assaults. Tough to do, though, and bloody impossible if the DE player gets first turn. Also, the S6 "Bullet" Lord got harder to use, as he cannot both join and leave a squad in one movement phase anymore. If he shoots on the board using a Raider squad as a personal transport, he can't disengage with them until the next turn. Again, moot if you get 1st turn, however.
-Dark Lances are bloody useless against the Monolith. Of course, they never were very good, so this shouldn't change the tactics of any serious DE player. The Talos is good against it now, though!

I'm sick of cons. Pros!
-Fielding a Drachon + Incubi Retinue is now a *much* stronger combination, as he can't be singled out until the Retinue is dead. Now you can feel pretty damn good about giving him an Agonizer! (I'm still giving him Poisoned Blades)
-Transports are hardier vs. a glance and models aren't insta-gibbed for having the misfortune of riding around in one when it explodes.
-So, how 'bout them close combat changes? If executed with precision, a coordinated assault could take out almost 1/2 of the enemy's forces in one turn.
-The Blast Weapon changes made our Disintegrator cannons extremely useful again. Also, Shredders... did anyone even remember we had these? Never thought I'd see the day I was actively hunting for Shredder bitz.

There are undoubtably others, but people around here are determined to make me do work. All in all, I'm lovin' 5th edition. :evilgrin:

IJW
16-07-2008, 15:07
Transports are hardier vs. a glance and models aren't insta-gibbed for having the misfortune of riding around in one when it explodes.
Plus open-topped vehicles are no longer vulnerable to blasts/templates. ;)

The Song of Spears
16-07-2008, 15:57
I think this point is why you will start seeing more flayed ones and wraiths more. Think of what a wraith can accomplish now. Send him in the way of a cc unit that will be getting to your warriors next turn. That wraith is gonna get beaten down good, but no moving into fresh combat. Result is a nice rapid fire range for that warrior unit, as oppose to being in combat.

This is really clever, especially with the wraiths. A single wraiths as bait can ruin a powerful assault units day if they win CC and are dead in the water 12" from multiple necron units. Too bad they are FA and my FA slots are all taken up by a pitiful few destroyers and scarabs :P

Aaron
16-07-2008, 17:54
I think Falcon Ram Spam is going to rule the day.

electricblooz
16-07-2008, 18:21
-Older power lists became tougher to play. Old standard was to have 2x Haemonculi running WWPs invisible in your army as they are ICs and were thus untargetable if not the closest. Now, unless linked, those suckers get drilled. They can't link to anything truly resilient, so it is possible to eliminate both ICs via shooting, thereby preventing WWP assaults.

this made we wonder - can't you join them to those 20 strong warrior squads?
With the abundance of cover saves, those squads are goign to be bonkers to kill to a man, and with 20 models getting the 5thed equivalent of a "torrent of fire" kill is going to be impossible.

IronNerd
16-07-2008, 18:32
Falcon Ram Spam? I assume this means taking 3 Falcons and moving them full movement into other tanks? Meh... not too worried. They are killable now, and there are better HS options than ramming with Falcons. Maybe with Waveserpents though.

DE have always been mean in the right hands, but I feel that the cons hurt them more than the pros help them. You still can't move and drop a WWP, so aside from the new deployments, I don't see them being any better. I tried playing DE for a while, chose not to because of their age. I used the Wych Cult idea, and I think there is another big con for them. All units now respond to charges. This could be a problem, as it should ensure that you either really win or really lose combats, which leaves you out to get torn up by shooting. I'd almost think the shooting aspect of DE would be better, but then, I'm the least experienced with them of any other army out there.

I'm thinking more and more that Nidzilla just got better...

The_Outsider
16-07-2008, 18:57
DE not so good

Meh, I feel myself that they get more powerful due to being nerfed the elast by a lot of 5th ed changes (notably the change to defensive weapons S goes a long way to A) making DE pack even mroe mobile firepower and B) less chance of the enemy doing the same thing to you).


I'm thinking more and more that Nidzilla just got better...

Watch as it never, ever wins an objective based mission. Draw perhaps, but never win.

afshinbb
16-07-2008, 19:08
what about eldar with no super falcons anymore?

IronNerd
16-07-2008, 19:14
Watch as it never, ever wins an objective based mission. Draw perhaps, but never win.

I'm thinking a bit differently than the old standard. CHEAP fexes, with barbed strangler and scything talons. Same with Tyrants. These guys can come in VERY cheap if you don't go for all the bells and whistles. I'd say there will easily be at least 1000 points left to buy genestealers with, which could come out to a good chunk of genestealers.

Mozzamanx
16-07-2008, 19:21
I'm thinking 'Nids will have a huge change of focus to the swarm, and an even mix of dakka/stab Carnifex. Either shoot the 150+ models with a 4+ cover save, or the T6, W4 monsters. Plus, you can easily get 6 troops in a 1000pt match- In fact, I usually do. Its great, since I was playing like that all through 4th!

Suck it, Nidzilla!

The Song of Spears
16-07-2008, 20:40
Watch as it never, ever wins an objective based mission. Draw perhaps, but never win.

Actually, as the book states, if you succeed in wiping the enemy off the table completely, you win the mission, regardless of objectives. So if nidzilla can do that they win any kind of mission. (im not saying they can wipe any army off the table, but it is a valid way for them to win a objectives only mission)

The_Outsider
16-07-2008, 20:46
Actually, as the book states, if you succeed in wiping the enemy off the table completely, you win the mission, regardless of objectives. So if nidzilla can do that they win any kind of mission. (im not saying they can wipe any army off the table, but it is a valid way for them to win a objectives only mission)

Well yeah, but I was kind of assuming (perhaps foolishly) it was nidzilla versus a decent player, in which case that is a rather tricky job getting wipeout.

The Song of Spears
16-07-2008, 20:55
I have never done well using my nidzilla trail runs, i like my mixed nids list much better.

Though the 4+ cover due to intervening units will makes bugs quite a bit tougher, 4+ save hormaguants behind spinegaunt meat shield = rough time for anyone. With a few fexs and zoans for anti tank (and perhaps a flyrant to make sure) nids could be tough to beat, very tough....

Sekhmet
16-07-2008, 20:55
This is really clever, especially with the wraiths. A single wraiths as bait can ruin a powerful assault units day if they win CC and are dead in the water 12" from multiple necron units. Too bad they are FA and my FA slots are all taken up by a pitiful few destroyers and scarabs :P

I wrote a long post on CSG on this topic, but to sum it up quickly:

Use flayed ones - they're relatively cheap, use elite slots instead of fast attack slots, and will guaranteed die in close combat rather than possibly survive like scarabs.

4-man squad means you can cover a line of 10" in front of your warrior/destroyer/whatever squads.

Stick them 4.1" from the front most model in the back line to the back most flayed one (The enemy has to stay 1" away from the FOs before charging, and the FO base is 1", thus 6" away and unable to go around the flayed ones to charge your back line).

Have them at max coherency, 2" apart.

Same reason as before - they die, the enemy is caught about 5" from your lines with a d6" consolidate... which puts them at most 11" away from your rapid firing warriors.

The Song of Spears
16-07-2008, 20:59
I wrote a long post on CSG on this topic, but to sum it up quickly:

Use flayed ones - they're relatively cheap, use elite slots instead of fast attack slots, and will guaranteed die in close combat rather than possibly survive like scarabs.


Damn, and i just sold all my flayed ones as they used to be so useless...

IronNerd
16-07-2008, 22:01
4-man squad means you can cover a line of 10" in front of your warrior/destroyer/whatever squads.


Even the most basic assault army should have some shooting... I suppose this will cure some of the Necron blues, but I'm not convinced that their problems are solved.

IronNerd
17-07-2008, 02:00
I feel pretty lame "bumping" my own thread back up, but I got a hold of the 'nid 'dex, and I wanted to illustrate my point on why I think they could be a power list to look out for. I won't spell out ALL the details, as this isn't the list forum, but the general idea is taking 7 large blasts, 5 small blasts, 7 MCs, and 72 genestealers into one army. It can very easily be done... I could actually make it 8 MCs and large blasts... Anyway, this is terrifying...