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Lord Inquisitor
16-07-2008, 05:07
Here's a place to post any rule changes that snuck in under the radar.

Some that I noted, mostly to do with the vehicle rules:

1) Units no longer need to be in base contact to make a sweeping advance

2) Units embarked in transports can only fire if the vehicle moved 6" or less just like any other vehicle-mounted weapon

3) Embarked troops do not take damage if the vehicle is wrecked, only if it actually explodes (and it doesn't matter how fast you're moving!). This one really surprised me - transports are actually safer now than they ever have been!

4) Stunned walkers can be meltabombed much easier

5) Tank shock require a move distance declared before moving

6) Blast weapons that scatter do strike the armour facing the center of the hole (so if a battlecannon scatters behind something, it hits the rear armour!)

That's all for now. Any other cunning differences people have noted?

Charax
16-07-2008, 05:09
My havok launchers like number 6 a lot....

Danny Internet
16-07-2008, 05:09
Fallback distance through difficult terrain is no longer halved.

shabbadoo
16-07-2008, 05:31
6) Blast weapons that scatter do strike the armour facing the center of the hole (so if a battlecannon scatters behind something, it hits the rear armour!)

Yes, they do, but if the hole in the template is not *literally touching* that rear armor, and only part of the rest of the template is, then the blast is treated as being half Strength, which means not much is going to penetrate that rear armor of 10. A battle cannon for example will be Strength 4 on an indirect rear hit(usually), so it will only glance the target on a 6. A demolisher shell can actually penetrate on a 6, and glance on a 5. Most other weapons in the game will do nothing at all, so things are not as good as you make them out to be.

AngelofSorrow
16-07-2008, 05:35
u now need to have 2 power fists or thunder hammers etc..... to get the +1 attack for having 2 hand weapons

does not effect power weapons

Varath- Lord Impaler
16-07-2008, 05:39
units who cant disembark from their normal doors (due to enemy models or terrain) can disembark from any part of a closed top vehicle. They just cannot move, shoot or assault this turn.

Its called Emergency Disembarktion.

Sir_Lunchalot
16-07-2008, 05:45
Jet packs are relentless. Marker drones with crisis suits may now move and fire. ditto for stealth teams. mobile markerlights for everyone!

Iceheart2112
16-07-2008, 06:02
Dedicated transports can contest (not hold, but contest) objectives.

Mojaco
16-07-2008, 06:58
6) Blast weapons that scatter do strike the armour facing the center of the hole (so if a battlecannon scatters behind something, it hits the rear armour!)

I don't have it with me, but are you sure? I was pretty sure it was the armour facing the firer. Read it yesterday but not too indepth, so I could be off.

Characters move first when making a counterattack like responce to being charged. Useful!

Bob5000
16-07-2008, 07:05
Hit and run needs an initiative test , kinda screws vectored retro thrusters on Tau suits with thier rubbish initiative

Kulgur
16-07-2008, 07:09
Open topped vehicles that explode only inflict str3 hits on occupants instead of str4

Frgt/10
16-07-2008, 08:22
if you surround a vehicle and the unit cant perform an emergency disembarkation when the vehicle is destroyed (wrecked), they are destroyed. however if a vehicle explodes, they survive, but take dmg instead.

Sir_Turalyon
16-07-2008, 08:32
u now need to have 2 power fists or thunder hammers etc..... to get the +1 attack for having 2 hand weapons

does not effect power weapons

That one isn't new, but power weapons (and other special ccw) geting +1 attack only from second weapon of it's type, pistol and regular ccw surprised me. Under leaked rules Chaplain with crosius and power fist was geting extra attack when using power weapon rules, now he needs bolt pistol for extra crosius attack.

MALICIOUS LOGIC
16-07-2008, 08:37
Until the new Marine codex comes out, the current codex gives no description of And-They-Shall-Know-No-Fear. It says to referance it in the rulebook. But the new rulebook does not have that rule.

This actually came up in a game. We used the old ATSKNF rules rather than saying they no longer exist.

~Logic

WallWeasels
16-07-2008, 08:39
or just use the marine FAQ

Marius Xerxes
16-07-2008, 09:09
I don't have it with me, but are you sure? I was pretty sure it was the armour facing the firer. Read it yesterday but not too indepth, so I could be off.

Characters move first when making a counterattack like responce to being charged. Useful!

Yes this is described on page 60.

If the center hole is over the hull whatsoever, then you use the armour facing the model shooting. If the center hole scatters completely off then you use the armour facing the center hole, albiet to remember the shot is at half strength.

Barrage Weapons always use Side Armour when the hole is over the hull to represent hits against the top of the vehicle.

Balgor
16-07-2008, 10:17
Nurgle space marines dont like AP3 weapons, :D

this surprised me.

Eldoriath
16-07-2008, 10:49
You mean AP 1 and AP 2, Nurgle marines still don't mind AP3, but plasma suddenly became as deadly for them as all their other fellow marines (except thousand sons).

solvay
16-07-2008, 10:54
i like the fact that if you stop 1" away from an enemy and then roll double1 to assault you can still assault... no more stumbling :D

EarlGrey
16-07-2008, 10:56
Nurgle space marines dont like AP3 weapons, :D

this surprised me.

It's only weapons that ignore ALL armour saves. You can't get better than a 2+ save, so AP2 and AP1 ignore ALL armour saves, AP3 doesn't.
This is great for Wind of Chaos/Flamers of Tzeentch and other weapons that ignore armour saves.

gunbunny242
16-07-2008, 11:26
Frag grenades and the like have changed. You no longer strike at the same time as the unit in cover, you just ignore cover and use normal initiative.
This will annoy Eldar players cause they had fancy plama grenades that did this anyway.
Also makes giving stikkbombs to orks pointless if playing anyone with reasonable initiative.
Does mean my furious assualting berzerkers or noise marines in cover are even nastier....

marv335
16-07-2008, 11:34
If you're in combat with a vehicle (without a Ws) and it doesn't move away, you can attack it in your opponents combat phase.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-07-2008, 11:38
Offensive/Defensive Grenades *always* roll D6+4 for AP in CC.

Makes Orks quite tasty against Transports!

njfed
16-07-2008, 11:53
Jet packs are relentless. Marker drones with crisis suits may now move and fire. ditto for stealth teams. mobile markerlights for everyone!

I'm not so sure about this. The FAQ states two different cases where a model's special abilities do not carry over to drones. They don't say anything about this case and I don't have my codex with me...going to have to buy a copy of every codex to keep at work.

Gun drones on a vehicle do not benefit if the vehicle uses a markerlight to increase its BS.
Drones don't have advanced stabalization systems even though the unit does.

So unless the codex states that drones attached to a unit with jet packs have jet packs then they do not get the relentless USR.

Curanos
16-07-2008, 12:09
I'm not so sure about this. The FAQ states two different cases where a model's special abilities do not carry over to drones. They don't say anything about this case and I don't have my codex with me...going to have to buy a copy of every codex to keep at work.

Gun drones on a vehicle do not benefit if the vehicle uses a markerlight to increase its BS.
Drones don't have advanced stabalization systems even though the unit does.

So unless the codex states that drones attached to a unit with jet packs have jet packs then they do not get the relentless USR.

If I'm not totally mistaken, the rules in the codex state that Drones all have jet packs, so they would benefit from the relentless USR.

Lokust
16-07-2008, 12:19
[QUOTE=gunbunny]Frag grenades and the like have changed. You no longer strike at the same time as the unit in cover, you just ignore cover and use normal initiative.
This will annoy Eldar players cause they had fancy plama grenades that did this anyway.
[QUOTE]

How will this annoy eldar players? When eldar assault, nothing has changed. When marines charge eldar, they strike slower instead of simultaneous. It's a win-win for eldar and in general every unit with high initiative and grenades.

Poseidal
16-07-2008, 13:49
How will this annoy eldar players? When eldar assault, nothing has changed. When marines charge eldar, they strike slower instead of simultaneous. It's a win-win for eldar and in general every unit with high initiative and grenades.
Actually, the old Plasma grenades were S5 vs vehicles as opposed to S4, now they're all lumped together and are S4...

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-07-2008, 13:51
Just as well the Eldar units liable to get anywhere near a Tank in HTH either have Meltabombs or Haywire then.

AlexCage
16-07-2008, 13:51
One I found pretty interesting is, you have to declare HOW all your reserves are coming in before the game starts. For each unit you must declare if they are going to attempt to Outflank or come in via deepstrike, and you cannot change that during the game. So your opponent knows what's DSing and what's Outflanking. Guess it's not huge, since most things that infiltrate don't Deepstrike, and vice versa, but I thought it was interesting.

Also, Permanently Immobile units come in via Deepstrike in Dawn of War missions. HUGE for people who don't want to buy Centaurs or Trojans for their Thudd Guns, Heavy Mortars, and Medusa Carriages. Woo! Go Korps!

Oh and my favorite, you can continue to Tank Shock and Ram anything you come into contact with after you successfully ram something to death! Guess my Centaur/Chimera shield isn't going to protect my Lemans... bah.

Tank wrecks now dangerous terrain. That's pretty big for those people who like to pile their guys back ontop of their wrecked vehicle, for cover.

projectkmo
16-07-2008, 14:00
Until the new Marine codex comes out, the current codex gives no description of And-They-Shall-Know-No-Fear. It says to referance it in the rulebook. But the new rulebook does not have that rule.

This actually came up in a game. We used the old ATSKNF rules rather than saying they no longer exist.

~Logic

if it hasn't already been mentioned...

the

http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/40k/5th-ed/2008_CSM_FAQ.pdf

says

"“And They Shall Know No Fear”
The “And They Shall Know No Fear” special rule
refers to the Universal Special Rules in the main
rulebook. This rule is no longer there, so is
reprinted here for reference.
Space Marines automatically pass tests to
regroup, and can take tests even if the squad has
been reduced to less than 50% by casualties,
though all other criteria apply. If Space Marines
are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not
destroyed and will instead continue to fight
normally. If this happens then the unit is subject
to the No Retreat! rule in this round of close
combat and may therefore lose additional
casualties. Usually troops that regroup may not
move normally and always count as moving
whether they do or not, but these restrictions do
not apply to models with this special rule.
Note that units which include Servitors are still
subject to this rule as long as the unit contains at
least one Space Marine.
FAQ"

==Me==
16-07-2008, 14:18
If you have a unit of multi-wounders with different gear, you can spread the wounds around to individuals with unique gear or stats.

For examples, 3 Tyranid Warriors equipped identically and 1 given a Venom Cannon. They take 8 wounds, so 6 on the normal warriors and 2 on the VC. 3 normal saves failed, 1 VC save failed. This means you'll have 2 normal warriors running around, 1 wounded, and a wounded VC warrior as well.

It makes multi-wounders more survivable if they have different gear and can be abused pretty easily (great for Nobs :D )

Dweomer
16-07-2008, 14:55
The bit about Blast weapons is only true if the centre hole misses entirely, so the weapon will also be at 1/2 stength.

Tau drones have jetpacks, so they are Relentless.

And for new sneaky changes:
Jump Infantry all get Deepstrike for free. So there's no reason to buy Surprise Assault for an Eldar Warp Spider Exarch.

Anything that ignores difficult terrain also ignores cover. Cover only work when the opponent makes a difficult terrain check.

Units assaulting into Dangerous Terrain can fail to charge if the lead model dies on the way in.

Distance to a vehicle is per the HULL, not gubbins.

Sponsons use true movement to determine field of fire. The side sponsons on the Leman Russ can't shoot backwards anymore.

There's no more Ld minus for being under 1/2 strength.

Man-portable Plasma Cannons (and other Gets Hot!, Blast) weapons are 18% less accurate than other Blast weapons due to Gets Hot!.

Walkers are no longer affected by No Retreat.

# of Attacks can be modified over 10. (CSM FAQ)

ICs can join a unit in reserve.

Units in a tank count as on the field.

Models cannot move between friendly units unless there is enough room for their base to pass between.

Preferred Enemy gives a re-roll rather than a to-hit mod.

Tank Hunters automatically pass Tank Shock.

IJW
16-07-2008, 15:01
Distance to a vehicle is per the HULL, not gubbins.

Models cannot move between friendly units unless there is enough room for their base to pass between.

Tank Hunters automatically pass Tank Shock.
All of those are unchanged from 4th ed. ;)

Lord Inquisitor
16-07-2008, 15:37
My havok launchers like number 6 a lot....
Unfortunately, as others have said, that's with half strength (so, no use whatsoever for weapons with S less than 8, but my Blastmasters can make use of this)


Yes, they do, but if the hole in the template is not *literally touching* that rear armor, and only part of the rest of the template is, then the blast is treated as being half Strength, which means not much is going to penetrate that rear armor of 10. A battle cannon for example will be Strength 4 on an indirect rear hit(usually), so it will only glance the target on a 6. A demolisher shell can actually penetrate on a 6, and glance on a 5. Most other weapons in the game will do nothing at all, so things are not as good as you make them out to be.
I realise - but it's an awful lot better than in 4th ed where if the blast scatters behind the vehicle it still hits the front armour with half strength!

A battlecannon striking AV10 with S4 still has a 30% chance of a glancing hit. Much better than nothing!


If you're in combat with a vehicle (without a Ws) and it doesn't move away, you can attack it in your opponents combat phase.
Yes! I noticed this too, couldn't remember it when posting.


When marines charge eldar, they strike slower instead of simultaneous. It's a win-win for eldar and in general every unit with high initiative and grenades.
Agreed. My Emperor's Children are so happy about this rule they're likely to break out in little happy-dances, given that they have to pay extra for their higher initiative.


If you have a unit of multi-wounders with different gear, you can spread the wounds around to individuals with unique gear or stats.
Right. Which means that if you equip every Tyranid Warrior differently, your unit becomes tougher - you can potentially take 1 wound on every model in the unit before you take any casualties (although the flip side is that you have less control over which models die).

In effect, ANY unit that can make every model unique becomes tougher as individuals can take several hits for the team.


And for new sneaky changes:
Anything that ignores difficult terrain also ignores cover. Cover only work when the opponent makes a difficult terrain check.
Hmm... one for the FAQ that one, perhaps. Makes Wraiths bloody nasty. Hallucenogen grenades seem somewhat pointless now, though.


Units assaulting into Dangerous Terrain can fail to charge if the lead model dies on the way in.
Only if he's the only one in charge range.

Some new ones from me:

Wrecks are now dangerous as well as difficult terrain.
Models may once again split their attacks if engaged with multiple enemies

The Song of Spears
16-07-2008, 15:40
units who cant disembark from their normal doors (due to enemy models or terrain) can disembark from any part of a closed top vehicle. They just cannot move, shoot or assault this turn.

Its called Emergency Disembarktion.

Um, so then by the same rules, what happens when you are totally surrounded and can't disembark? You just stay in the wreck? or the unit is destroyed?

EDIT:
NM, I found it. They are destroyed...

Poseidal
16-07-2008, 15:44
Anything that ignores difficult terrain also ignores cover. Cover only work when the opponent makes a difficult terrain check.

What is the page no. for this? this is potentially very bad for Pathfinders...

IJW
16-07-2008, 15:46
He's talking about I1 for chargers - not about shooting.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-07-2008, 15:47
If you have a unit of multi-wounders with different gear, you can spread the wounds around to individuals with unique gear or stats.

For examples, 3 Tyranid Warriors equipped identically and 1 given a Venom Cannon. They take 8 wounds, so 6 on the normal warriors and 2 on the VC. 3 normal saves failed, 1 VC save failed. This means you'll have 2 normal warriors running around, 1 wounded, and a wounded VC warrior as well.

It makes multi-wounders more survivable if they have different gear and can be abused pretty easily (great for Nobs :D )

Is also kind of self regulating, as you cannot keep the Venom Cannon alive until last. Bit of security, but with a slight risk. Hurrah!

Lord Inquisitor
16-07-2008, 15:50
p36
Why do pathfinders suffer in particular? Bear in mind there are very few units that completely ignore cover (a difficult or dangerous test is all that's needed for cover, so even bikes, jumps or move-through-coverers are still affected normally by terrain) - the only units I can think of are Harlequins and Wraiths. I'm sure there are others, but they're really very rare.

Enderel
16-07-2008, 15:56
Anything that ignores difficult terrain also ignores cover. Cover only work when the opponent makes a difficult terrain check..

So you no longer strike at i1 if you ignore cover and charge in with out grenades?

Does this mean harlies no longer need the shadowseer for plasma grenade equivalents? Is the shadowseer no longer worth the points as they can travel in other peoples transports as well (no real VoT requirement)?

EDIT - Pathfinders ignore cover completely as part of the upgrade from Rangers.

IJW
16-07-2008, 16:06
So you no longer strike at i1 if you ignore cover and charge in with out grenades?
I1 is purely dependant on having to take difficult or dangerous terrain tests on the charge. So Harlequins, Eldar Pathfinders and Wraiths are fine.

airmang
16-07-2008, 16:17
did anyone notice that turbo-boosting makes you auto-pass pinning checks, and you can't voluntarily go-to-ground? or that beast and cavalry can't go to higher levels of ruins?

Lord Inquisitor
16-07-2008, 16:19
So you no longer strike at i1 if you ignore cover and charge in with out grenades?
The way it's written, yes...


EDIT - Pathfinders ignore cover completely as part of the upgrade from Rangers.
Ah, right you are. Was thinking of Tau...

We'll just have to watch out for those charging pathfinders then... :eyebrows:

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-07-2008, 16:20
And Turbo Boosting is now a Cover Save, not Invulnerable. Which neatly stoppers the Psycannon complaint.

Lord Inquisitor
16-07-2008, 16:26
Ooh, yes... although I'm going to need to introduce any turboboosting bikers (especially those pesky eldar ones) to this little thing called a Doom Siren... Should give a nasty shock!

IJW
16-07-2008, 16:28
We'll just have to watch out for those charging pathfinders then... :eyebrows:
Well, the look on my Tau opponent's face when a unit of my Eldar Pathfinders managed a first-turn charge was priceless! Infiltrate 12", Scout move, Move, Fleet, Charge! Tied up that entire flank long enough for the Harlequins to foot-slog it into combat.

Not exactly an everyday occurrence, though...

Souchan
16-07-2008, 16:47
Skilled rider now only counts for Bikes and Cavalry, my crisis suit commanders weep :'(

Churoc
16-07-2008, 18:20
Independant Characters with a Retinue/Bodyguard become Upgrade Characters(aka. Seargent,Nob...) and cannot be picked out in an assault. Page 48 bottom right and page 47 middle left).

This came out of left field to me.

Bob5000
16-07-2008, 18:38
I dont think this is meant to be a rule change at all , but I have a concern I previously posted in another thread that Howling Banshee masks still work as before when charging through cover .

Grimbad
16-07-2008, 18:40
As per the summary pages in the back of the book, zzap guns can auto-hit again now.

Clang
16-07-2008, 20:51
As per the summary pages in the back of the book, zzap guns can auto-hit again now.

potentially great news, but why wasn't that mentioned in the new Ork FAQ?

ReveredChaplainDrake
16-07-2008, 21:02
-Winged Tyranids can Deepstrike. (They were the only Jump Infantry who couldn't in 4th.)
-Lictors who deepstrike, crash, and get redeployed must do so inside new Area Terrain, limiting where they can be thrown to by the enemy.
-Tyranids with Flesh Hooks can "perch" on Impassible Terrain, such that they can only be assaulted by other enemies with immunity to Impassible Terrain (other Flesh Hook bugs).
-Black Templars are the only army required to take Target Priority checks. Their Righteous Zeal moves cannot be used to make base contact with enemy models.
-Hive Tyrants can shoot 1 ranged gun and pop a Warp Blast in the same turn.
-With no VPs, Without Number has no drawback.
-You can never re-roll failed IV saves from Perils of the Warp. Dice can only ever be re-rolled once, and the PotW re-rolls all passed saves. Ergo, no re-rolls.
-Scarabs that Turboboost can claim a 2+ cover save.
-Eldar Rangers and their Long Rifles have double-Rending: on the hit roll, and the wound roll!
-A Meltagun can claim a range greater than 24": move 6", embark on a Rhino, move Rhino 6", shoot 12" (plus a little when the fire point is a couple inches up from the rear). This equates to about an 18" range for getting within 1/2 range.
-Half strength is now equal to or less than 1/2 strength, instead of just less than 1/2 strength.
-If you surround a non-flying Vehicle with base contact such that it can't move without hitting your models, it is basically immobilized because it can't move a full 1" before it hits an enemy model and thus can't Tank Shock.
-No matter how many minuses stack on the Vehicle Damage chart, the worst possible result you can get is Crew Shaken.
-Meltabombs are not AP1.
-When assaulting, your models can move within 1" of enemy models, even if the models in question are not the models being charged. (Remember that 4th edition Guardsmen conga line of "you can't assault me"?)
-When responding to a charge, enemy models must attempt to make base contact with their opponents if possible, and the closest enemy must contact the closest unengaged model. No holding back!

The Song of Spears
16-07-2008, 21:53
-If you surround a non-flying Vehicle with base contact such that it can't move without hitting your models, it is basically immobilized because it can't move a full 1" before it hits an enemy model and thus can't Tank Shock.

Incorrect. The tank shock rules not only over ride the rules for getting within 1" of a enemy, but it clearly states that enemy models are moved if they are within 1" of the tank declaring tank shock. in addition the assaulting vehicles rules states that at the end of a turn when a unit assaults a tank and the tank survives each unit is then free to move away from the combat. In addition there is no such wording that states a tank shock must move the tank at least 1".

IJW
16-07-2008, 22:12
-With no VPs, Without Number has no drawback.
Kill Points


-Eldar Rangers and their Long Rifles have double-Rending: on the hit roll, and the wound roll!
Almost, but not quite - the two rolls have different effects.


-Meltabombs are not AP1.
They never were.

xyphoid
16-07-2008, 23:26
A few that i haven't seen mentioned here:

- Open-topped vehicles no longer take double hits from templates or blast weapons.
- Vehicles no longer roll 2d6 instead of 1d6 when moving fast through terrain
- Vehicles in squadrons can freely shoot through other vehicles in their squadron
- Rage troops are not forced to assault
- 'obscured' is a 4+ save for vehicles, and a kustom force field grants obscured, so it's now better at protecting vehicles than troops.

Asi the Red
17-07-2008, 00:44
Jet packs are relentless. Marker drones with crisis suits may now move and fire. ditto for stealth teams. mobile markerlights for everyone!
This is correct.

Tau drones have jetpacks, so they are Relentless.
This is not correct.

Drones are only jump infantry when attached to jump infantry units (Crisis/Stealth). Drones attached to Etherials, Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, and Broadsides (even those w/Advanced Stabilization, hence the FAQ question) are still just infantry and therefore not Relentless.

Santiaghoul
17-07-2008, 01:02
Didnt see this, but my apologies if this has been posted.

Independant characters auto join a unit within 2" at the end of movement.
And, Independant characters can be shot if not joined to a unit.

Gensuke626
17-07-2008, 01:24
-Eldar Rangers and their Long Rifles have double-Rending: on the hit roll, and the wound roll! Not quite true, it's actually a little better. See, all to hit rolls of 6 inflict AP1 right? So if you target a vehicle and roll a 6, then subsequently manage to damage the vehicle (3+6+D3...max pen of 12) it counts as an AP1 shot, so you get +1 to damage chart. with a max Pen of 12, you're not going to be able to pop much other than Trukks or Rhinos...but that does mean that if you manage to AP1 an ork Trukk, it'll go ramshakle on a 3+


-If you surround a non-flying Vehicle with base contact such that it can't move without hitting your models, it is basically immobilized because it can't move a full 1" before it hits an enemy model and thus can't Tank Shock. could work if you're assaulting said vehicle...but if you're no then you're breaking the 1" rule.

scarvet
17-07-2008, 01:32
I don't know why people is keep mix this one up; the rule says unless you declare the character to join the unit, it can't move with in two inch of an unit.

Open topped are not vulnerable to blast, but they do keep rules for vehicle thats vulnerable to blast.

The beast/calvary entering ruin is something need FAQ, it seem by raw they can't go up level in ruins. But personally I just think its bad game mechanic that a walker or monster can go up while not for beast/calvary which is more agile, bikes should be able to go up but limit to 2 levels per turn.

MINI0N
17-07-2008, 01:44
vehicles in squadrons treat immobilised results as destroyed and stunned as shaken.

Gensuke626
17-07-2008, 01:55
I don't know why people is keep mix this one up; the rule says unless you declare the character to join the unit, it can't move with in two inch of an unit.

Open topped are not vulnerable to blast, but they do keep rules for vehicle thats vulnerable to blast.

The beast/calvary entering ruin is something need FAQ, it seem by raw they can't go up level in ruins. But personally I just think its bad game mechanic that a walker or monster can go up while not for beast/calvary which is more agile, bikes should be able to go up but limit to 2 levels per turn.

I think the idea is that it's hard to get horses and other odd mounts up stairs and nigh impossible to get them up ladders (Which would also be incredibly hard for walkers...but can vehicles go up levels?

IJW
17-07-2008, 02:16
I don't know why people is keep mix this one up;
Given that you got it wrong yourself, that's a rather ironic thing to say. ;)


the rule says unless you declare the character to join the unit, it can't move with in two inch of an unit.
Nope. If the IC ends the movement phase within 2" of a unit, they have joined the unit. You're mixing up having to declare which unit they have joined if there is more than one within 2", and not being able to move within 2" of a unit they aren't allowed to join.

Lord Inquisitor
17-07-2008, 02:35
Here's a REALLY odd one:

Artillery units can split fire. The heavy weapons can fire at one unit, and the troopers can fire at a second.

What? Why the heck do these guys have the ability while all other squads and vehicles cannot? Why can't defensive weapons be fired at a second target, surely the same logic applies?

dethray
17-07-2008, 02:45
This is probably not mentioned, if playing with VPs, damaged vehicles give away half points. Based on the vehicle damage chart even vehicles with a single weapon destroyed will give away half points.

Now for basic squads being at half strength gives away half points.

Single multi wound models also give away half VPs if it suffered half the number of wounds it started with. This also applies to Independent Characters, which usually give away VPs as soon as the IC takes a wound.

Marius Xerxes
17-07-2008, 03:13
I know that Tau Drone have Jetpacks.. so how does this part in the new Tau FAQ make any sense cause Relentless says you can move and fire Heavy Weapons now..

Q. If a unit with advanced stabilization systems
also has Marker Drones, can the drones remain
stationary to fire their markerlights while the
Battlesuits move using their advanced
stabilization systems?
A. No, since models in the unit moved, the
drones, which do not have a stabilization system,
may not fire a heavy weapon.

azimaith
17-07-2008, 03:20
You can measure to the hull of walkers without bases now including their legs. No more phantom legged defilers.

Gensuke626
17-07-2008, 03:21
I know that Tau Drone have Jetpacks.. so how does this part in the new Tau FAQ make any sense cause Relentless says you can move and fire Heavy Weapons now..

Q. If a unit with advanced stabilization systems
also has Marker Drones, can the drones remain
stationary to fire their markerlights while the
Battlesuits move using their advanced
stabilization systems?
A. No, since models in the unit moved, the
drones, which do not have a stabilization system,
may not fire a heavy weapon.

Drones don't have jetpacks, they are whatever unit type the unit is attached to is. So Drones with Stealth and Crisis suits are Jetpacks, but I believe Drones with Broadsides are still infantry.

azimaith
17-07-2008, 03:23
I think the idea is that it's hard to get horses and other odd mounts up stairs and nigh impossible to get them up ladders (Which would also be incredibly hard for walkers...but can vehicles go up levels?

Not unless they skim. Stupidly enough (its really the fault of the codex) hormagaunts and raveners can no longer climb up ruins. Not even with flesh hooks. (As they're not vertically impasasble)

Why the codex decided to class hormagaunts as beasts rather than just leave them with leaping(Which they have now) and give them fleet like all gaunts boggles the mind.

TheDarkFlame
17-07-2008, 05:23
-You can never re-roll failed IV saves from Perils of the Warp. Dice can only ever be re-rolled once, and the PotW re-rolls all passed saves. Ergo, no re-rolls.
I can't seem to get my head round this, what the hell do you mean?

-A Meltagun can claim a range greater than 24": move 6", embark on a Rhino, move Rhino 6", shoot 12" (plus a little when the fire point is a couple inches up from the rear). This equates to about an 18" range for getting within 1/2 range.
Wait, what? You can't move, embark, move, can you?!? That's just mad!

rev
17-07-2008, 06:24
Independant characters auto join a unit within 2" at the end of movement.
And, Independant characters can be shot if not joined to a unit.


I don't know why people is keep mix this one up; the rule says unless you declare the character to join the unit, it can't move with in two inch of an unit.



I found this one interesting - if your IC cant get withing 2" of any of you r units without joining, it'll mean much more carefull positioning surely.

rev

ehlijen
17-07-2008, 06:25
Why wouldn't Hormagaunts with flesh hooks be able to go up in ruins? It's going vertically and for them usually impassable. Ie it's, for them at least, vertically impassable. Flesh hooks should work.

As for explanantions, maybe gaunts don't have the brain capacity to climb ladders and the like (but then why can termagaunts...). I'd love it if my friends' nids couldn't get me in a ruin, but not even letting flesh hooks do it is just silly.

kris.sherriff
17-07-2008, 08:22
Well, the look on my Tau opponent's face when a unit of my Eldar Pathfinders managed a first-turn charge was priceless! Infiltrate 12", Scout move, Move, Fleet, Charge! Tied up that entire flank long enough for the Harlequins to foot-slog it into combat.

Not exactly an everyday occurrence, though...

The new Scout move prohibits using it to approach within 12" of an enemy model.

Kris

IJW
17-07-2008, 08:29
The new Scout move prohibits using it to approach within 12" of an enemy model.
1. Note the past tense. ;) That was in 4th ed.
2. Move, Fleet, Charge (all ignoring difficult terrain) still adds up to more than 12" on my calculator...

PierceC
17-07-2008, 08:56
-Scarabs that Turboboost can claim a 2+ cover save.



I thought that all units that Turboboost have the same coversave, 3+. As per USR on p. 76

IJW
17-07-2008, 08:59
Swarms get +1 to their cover saves.

EDIT - yay, no more endless arguments about Mark of Tzeentch applying to turboboost saves!

Gensuke626
17-07-2008, 09:04
Why wouldn't Hormagaunts with flesh hooks be able to go up in ruins? It's going vertically and for them usually impassable. Ie it's, for them at least, vertically impassable. Flesh hooks should work.

As for explanantions, maybe gaunts don't have the brain capacity to climb ladders and the like (but then why can termagaunts...). I'd love it if my friends' nids couldn't get me in a ruin, but not even letting flesh hooks do it is just silly.

You know...Ehlijen is kinda right...Ruins aren't Area Terrain anymore...they're sorta Wyswyg terrain...the area around them counts as area, but the building itself isn't

So the outside wall would be "Vertical Impassable" as you wouldn't be able to climb up it without a ladder. Sorta fixes the problem...cause now you can climb up the outside...but then again you still have problems inside...

Frgt/10
17-07-2008, 12:08
As per the summary pages in the back of the book, zzap guns can auto-hit again now.

sorry to burst your bubble but thats been confirmed multiple times as a typo ;)

Frgt/10
17-07-2008, 12:17
I can't seem to get my head round this, what the hell do you mean?

a farseer casts fortune on himself
he tries to cast another power
he suffers a potw attack and fails the ghosthelm save
he takes his invuln and passes; it must then be re-rolled due to the potw rules.
he fails the second time; he cannot reroll this using fortune, as a re-roll cant be re-rolled.

make sense now? :)

ehlijen
17-07-2008, 12:22
But at the same time: If he failed the first one, he rerolls it due to fortune and if he passes the reroll, the POTW can't force another reroll.

It's basically a: pick up the dice. Roll it. Don't look at it. Roll it again. This result stands.

Frgt/10
17-07-2008, 12:24
yep thats true as well. makes you want to fail the first one in some ways

Varath- Lord Impaler
17-07-2008, 12:57
It's basically a: pick up the dice. Roll it. Don't look at it. Roll it again. This result stands.

Is there something im missing?

Whenever i think about it, why dont you just say that the 2 rules cancel each other out? You get an Invulnerable save, no rerolls at all.

Santiaghoul
17-07-2008, 14:24
Skimmers now block LOS again. My DE Raider army is much happier.

AlexCage
17-07-2008, 14:33
-Winged Tyranids can Deepstrike. (They were the only Jump Infantry who couldn't in 4th.)
!

Seraphim.


Here's a REALLY odd one:

Artillery units can split fire. The heavy weapons can fire at one unit, and the troopers can fire at a second.

What? Why the heck do these guys have the ability while all other squads and vehicles cannot? Why can't defensive weapons be fired at a second target, surely the same logic applies?

Whoa! Seriously?! That's huge! Now there's finally a reason for my DKOK to take extra crew for their guns! Wow. That's a scary thought actually. If I recall the Medusa and Earthshaker can get up to 8 guys in one crew. Yes, that's right, come closer to my hidden guns... they can't hurt you at close range.. it's perfectly safe...

ZOT! 32 Las shots to the FACE! And I STILL dropped 2 s10 ap2 pie plates in your backfield! Bahaha.

Of course there's no reason to give them pistols now, though. Damnit.

==Me==
17-07-2008, 15:30
ZOT! 32 Las shots to the FACE!

Yes, because lasguns are so effective. What are you going to do, light the Burna Boys' cigars for them?
"'Ey thanks mate" FWOOOSH:angel:

No Retreat based purely on combat results put the hurt on gaunts. They rely on holding the enemy in place for the big 'uns, and when they lose combat they'll be losing even more casualties. Combine that with Troops as scoring, and gaunts need to be more careful (or take without number).

Lord Inquisitor
17-07-2008, 16:10
I think it's a great rule, I just don't know why it couldn't apply to other units. Okay, standard infantry splitting fire would (a) slow the game down and (b) require serious recosting of all heavy weapons, but it would be a bloody good rule to allow vehicles to fire their defensives at a second target, for exactly the same reasons as the artillery.

One thing that this rule has me wondering - do the support weapons carried by regular Guardian squads follow this rule, or only the big D-cannon type ones? I suspect it's the latter (don't have the Eldar codex to hand).

AlexCage
17-07-2008, 17:35
Yes, because lasguns are so effective. What are you going to do, light the Burna Boys' cigars for them?
"'Ey thanks mate" FWOOOSH:angel:



Come on man, I'm a Guardsman. I gotta cling to SOMETHING. And that's my faith in the Lasgun, en masse.

Lasguns: Not 50% as effective as bolters, but 100% more effective than not firing at all! Yay optimism!

njfed
17-07-2008, 20:21
Lets clear up one thing that many people are confused about...

"Lictors deploy using deep strike rule, regardless of mission, to represent them leaping out from concealment."

Note, the lictor is not free falling from space. He is hidden in the terrain at the start of the mission. How close he gets before you notice him is represented by the scatter role.

So do they take the dangerous terrain test?

No.

"If this terrain is classed as Impassable, the Lictor will not be destroyed but placed as normal."

The Lictor is capable of starting the mission in Impassable terrain. He should have no problem with difficult terrain.

E-616
17-07-2008, 20:49
Vehicles that deepstrike count as moving at crusing speed that turn, which means the Necron monolith will no longer be able to land in the middle of enemy forces and fire off it's Particle projectors at everything anymore :eek:

jstill
17-07-2008, 20:52
Drones don't have jetpacks, they are whatever unit type the unit is attached to is. So Drones with Stealth and Crisis suits are Jetpacks, but I believe Drones with Broadsides are still infantry.

pg 38 of the Tau Codex, Drone entry says...

Unit Type: Jump Infantry (Jet Pack)

edit: ya know, scratch that, I spoke (wrote?) too quick and didn't look hard enough. That was gun drones by themselves, whereas pg 31 definitely says "as owner"...my bad

Necrontyr
17-07-2008, 20:52
So how does this effect vehicles that can't move at cruising speed... like sentinels or other walkers?

E-616
17-07-2008, 20:59
So how does this effect vehicles that can't move at cruising speed... like sentinels or other walkers?

I imagine they wouldn't be able to shoot that turn.

RexTalon
17-07-2008, 21:47
Pistols don't shoot twice any more.

TheDarkFlame
20-07-2008, 01:22
a farseer casts fortune on himself
he tries to cast another power
he suffers a potw attack and fails the ghosthelm save
he takes his invuln and passes; it must then be re-rolled due to the potw rules.
he fails the second time; he cannot reroll this using fortune, as a re-roll cant be re-rolled.

make sense now? :)
Oh, I see now, thanks for that.

ehlijen
20-07-2008, 01:29
On the lictor deepstriking: what if on his scouting mission a patrol found him, got massacred before reporting in, but while they were being killed they managed to wound him?

The rules say dangerous terrain. There's just as much reason for a lone scout in enemy territory to be wounded before his army turns up as there is for teleporters to end up inside trees.

EldarBishop
20-07-2008, 03:55
I can't seem to get my head round this, what the hell do you mean?

Wait, what? You can't move, embark, move, can you?!? That's just mad!

As far as I know you have always been able to move, embark, move.

WallWeasels
20-07-2008, 04:20
a farseer casts fortune on himself
he tries to cast another power
he suffers a potw attack and fails the ghosthelm save
he takes his invuln and passes; it must then be re-rolled due to the potw rules.
he fails the second time; he cannot reroll this using fortune, as a re-roll cant be re-rolled.

make sense now?
Wait...doesnt this same logic mean that this is also correct:
-a farseer casts fortune on himself
-he tries to cast another power
-he suffers a potw attack and fails the ghosthelm save
-fails his first inv save
-re-rolls due to fortune
-doesn't have to do the forced re-roll from potw, because you cannot re-roll a re-roll.

stormtrooper154
20-07-2008, 06:21
Havent seen this mentioned anywhere yet - am I right in thinking that Ordanance used to ignore cover saves in 4th? but now it no longer ignores cover - this came up yesterday with Guardians with 3+ cover saves going to ground.

ehlijen
20-07-2008, 06:49
Ordnance has never outright ignored cover. Barrage has always caclulated intevening cover from the impact point and can therefore ignore much (but not all) cover.

Master Stark
20-07-2008, 07:43
Skimmers now block LOS again. My DE Raider army is much happier.

Really? So no more fish of fury for Tau then?

Poseidal
20-07-2008, 08:18
Really? So no more fish of fury for Tau then?

If the flying stalk is high enough, you can still see under. They'll probably get a cover save from it though.

Master Stark
20-07-2008, 10:33
If the flying stalk is high enough, you can still see under. They'll probably get a cover save from it though.

So true LOS still applies for skimmers? So a flying stand about 2" high would remove any LOS problems? Would that be considered abusive?

On a similar note, how does that work with 'flying' models like assault marines, which have been modelled onto wires? Do the wires count as 'in the way' and give a cover save?

EldarBishop
20-07-2008, 14:31
Wait...doesnt this same logic mean that this is also correct:
-a farseer casts fortune on himself
-he tries to cast another power
-he suffers a potw attack and fails the ghosthelm save
-fails his first inv save
-re-rolls due to fortune
-doesn't have to do the forced re-roll from potw, because you cannot re-roll a re-roll.



a farseer casts fortune on himself
he tries to cast another power
he suffers a potw attack and fails the ghosthelm save
he takes his invuln and passes; it must then be re-rolled due to the potw rules.
he fails the second time; he cannot reroll this using fortune, as a re-roll cant be re-rolled.

Yes, both are correct (I believe) since you can NEVER reroll a reroll...

there's been a discussion about this here... http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151956&page=2

stormtrooper154
21-07-2008, 13:54
On a similar note, how does that work with 'flying' models like assault marines, which have been modelled onto wires? Do the wires count as 'in the way' and give a cover save?

Ive thought about this too as I recently built some assault marines who were posed as flying. I think its best to confirm it with your opponent before the game starts.

Also do drop pods and other immobolised vehicles contest objectives? I cant seem to find any mention in the book that they cannot contest.

TheDarkFlame
21-07-2008, 15:13
The wires won't give a cover save, you can't take cover with you.

Santiaghoul
21-07-2008, 16:59
Just noticed this: Skimmers are hit just like regular vehicles now. No more need 6s to hit because they are hovering. The to hit roll is based solely on the speed the previous turn.

Lord Inquisitor
21-07-2008, 18:30
Yes, both are correct (I believe) since you can NEVER reroll a reroll...

there's been a discussion about this here... http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151956&page=2

That's now locked. I don't quite know what the right answer is, but it seems that despite the "never re-roll a re-roll" rule, in the past "re-roll hits" and "re-roll misses" have been considered two different things. To give you an example, from Fantasy:

Q. Armour of Damnation vs. Hatred. How does this work (successful hits are re-rolled, failed hits are rerolled)?
A. The attacking player rolls to hit and re-rolls misses. Then the defending player makes the attacker re-roll all successful attacks.

Now to my mind, the solution is very simple: in the case where two re-rolls apply in conflicting directions then they cancel out - just make one save! Sadly, we've not seen any such FAQ ruling yet.

ehlijen
21-07-2008, 23:13
Such a ruling is not needed. Whenever you get to reroll A and have to reroll not-A you basically just roll all the dice twice. That's hardly so complicated that you need some fance 'treat it as canecelling out' rule.

Lord Inquisitor
21-07-2008, 23:15
Hmm... I see what you mean... it actually just boils down to them cancelling each other out (since you are going to ignore the first roll no matter what).

pox
21-07-2008, 23:32
So true LOS still applies for skimmers? So a flying stand about 2" high would remove any LOS problems? Would that be considered abusive?

On a similar note, how does that work with 'flying' models like assault marines, which have been modelled onto wires? Do the wires count as 'in the way' and give a cover save?

issues like this are why the put in the "models must be mounted on the base they came with" rule. no has had a problem with the odd wrong sized bases, (dioramas and what not) but you would bump into problems specifically changing bases to gain an advantage. (like making the flight stand for skimmers taller or shorter then the one they came with.)

Sekhmet
21-07-2008, 23:50
And Turbo Boosting is now a Cover Save, not Invulnerable. Which neatly stoppers the Psycannon complaint.

Turbo boosting wraith are now 3+ invul, 3+ armor save and 3+ cover save.

talos935
22-07-2008, 02:09
Turbo boosting orks & swarms fear flamers

thenurgler
22-07-2008, 02:19
My havok launchers like number 6 a lot....

At strength 2 it doesn't matter which facing they use, that's only if it scatters so the hole is off the vehicle.

The Song of Spears
23-07-2008, 16:42
Am i correct in thinking that CC melees no long block LOS they only afford cover saves?

Lax
23-07-2008, 16:48
TLOS = you check mini's view :)
If you're targetting a unit that is half hidden by the melee, it gets a cover save.

The Song of Spears
23-07-2008, 17:07
Ok, then.

How about indirect fire, it no longer scatters more or less for moving, or being out of LOS?

And where does ordinance hit on a building if there are enemies on multiple levels? Does being "indirect fire" affect this?

IJW
23-07-2008, 17:17
How about indirect fire, it no longer scatters more or less for moving, or being out of LOS?
Indirect means you don't get to take away the BS. p32


And where does ordinance hit on a building if there are enemies on multiple levels? Does being "indirect fire" affect this?
Both covered in the ruins section, p84-5.

Meriwether
23-07-2008, 17:30
As far as I know you have always been able to move, embark, move.

You couldn't last edition -- in fact you couldn't move and then embark. You had to start your move within 2" of the access points in order to embark. (So the vehicle could move up and you could pile in, but you couldn't move up to the vehicle and pile in).

But now you can move within 2" during your movement phase, embark, and then the vehicle can move if it has not already done so. Particularly large, open-topped transports (battlewagons, for example) could add a lot of range to a bunch of burna boyz' shots...


issues like this are why the put in the "models must be mounted on the base they came with" rule.

This 'rule' isn't really much of one. It instructs us to make sure it's ok with our opponent, that's all.

In any case, this is what I noticed on my first read-through:

5th and 4th differences and clarified samenesses

ASSAULT
· Assaulting multiple units after shooting is clarified (p.34)
· Defenders React is new (p.34)
· Engagedness is determined at the beginning of the combat, and not on initiative step (p.35)
· Unengaged models can still be removed as casualties (p.35)
· A unit 1” away from the enemy can still assault on a difficult terrain roll of snake eyes (p.36)
· Difficult terrain reduces attackers’ I to 1 (p.36)
· Assault Grenades are like old plasma grenades (p.36)
· Defensive Grenades are bunched into one category (p.36)
· Attacks can most certainly go above 10 (p.37)
· Use majority weapon skill of the squad being swung at (p.37)
· Wounds caused by friendly actions (e.g. combat drugs) affect combat resolution (p.39)
· Consolidation can’t engage enemy units (p.40)
· Models can split attacks between multiple units (p.41)

BUILDINGS
· Lots of new rules, including occupying them, destroying them, using template weapons, parapets and battlements (p.77-82)
· Ruins have special rules for height, coherency, melee, blast weapons, and so forth. Note that beasts and cavalry cannot climb stairs! (p.82-85)

CHARACTERS
· ICs joining and leaving units is different (p.48)
· ICs can be targeted as normal when not with a unit (p.49)
· With ‘Defenders React’ and ‘Pile-in’ moves, the IC always move before other friendly models (p.49)

DISTANCES
· Two models that are exactly 2” apart are considered to be ‘within 2”’. This means that first turn charges are possible for beasts/cavalry and/or fleet jump infantry that start 24” from their opponent—if they roll a 6 on their run, of course.(p.3)

GAME START
· D6 to deploy first and go first, but opponent can ‘seize the initiative’.(p.9,92)

LEADERSHIP
· Squads with mixed Ld always use the highest.(p.8)

MISCELLEANOUS
· Characteristic tests are defined as a ‘meet or under’ d6 roll. (p.8)

MISSIONS
· See p.90-93 for basic mission rules.
· Reserves and deep strike can be used every game, and outflank is badass (p.94)
· Deep strike mishap table (p.95)


MORALE
· Units must take a morale test when they take 25% casualties in any phase… even the movement phase on a particularly bad dangerous terrain test! (p.44)
· Combat resolution affects morale tests in melee (p.44)
· ‘No Retreat!’ units suffer wounds based on CR, not outnumbering (p.44)
· Fall back moves are not affected by difficult terrain (p.45)
· Falling back models can be destroyed if you yell ‘Boo!’ at them with sufficient volume (p.46, first paragraph)

MOVEMENT
· If you roll a difficult terrain test and don’t move the squad, it still counts as moving (p.14)
· Most models can run in the shooting phase (p.16)

PSYKERS
· Perils of the warp just got nastier, but can’t ID T3 models (p.50)
· Psykers with guns who can fire two weapons can make one of them a psychic attack (p.50)
· Force weapons now cause ID (p.50)

SHOOTING
· TLOS; Area Terrain provides cover saves (p.13,21-23)
· TLOS to body or hull (p.16), including height advantages (p.21)
· Cover saves are improved (p. 21)
· You can choose not to fire with some models in a squad (p.16)
· Range is measured from shooting model to closest target model, but shots can kill anyone in the squad (p.17,24)
· BS 6+ gets re-rolls (of a sort) to hit (p.18)
· Intervening models provide cover saves (p.21)
· Area terrain, barriers, and units partially in cover are a little different (p.22)
· A squad can ‘Go to Ground’ after wound rolls but before saves (p.24); Pinned units automatically Go to Ground (p.31)

UNIT TYPES
· Monstrous Creatures have ‘move through cover’ instead of re-rolls on difficult terrain, cannot ‘go to ground’, and must be 50% covered to gain a cover save (p.51)
· Jump infantry must take dangerous terrain tests starting or ending its move in difficult terrain, and can enter play via deep strike.
· Jetbikes can’t hover over terrain (p.53)
· Dark Eldar Jetbikes are indeed Eldar Jetbikes (p.53)

USRs
· Counter-Attack provides +1A on a successful Ld check during ‘Defenders React’ (p.74)
· Feel No Pain is ignored by AP1 and AP2 weapons (p.75)
· Hit and Run requires an initiative test (p.75)
· Infiltrators in reserve can outflank (p.75,94)
· Preferred enemy re-rolls to hit (p.75)
· Rage is all penalty, no bonus (p.76)
· Relentless models count as stationary when shooting, and can still assault (p.76)
· Scouts can’t get within 12” of the enemy with their scout move, gives the ability to a dedicated transport, and allows outflank (p.76,94)
· Slow and Purposeful now get +1A when they assault, but still count as I1 (p.76)
· Stubborn characters ignore negative Ld modifiers (p.76)
· Swarms never offer cover saves to vehicles or MCs (p.76)
· Turboboosting gives a 3+ cover save, can’t go to ground, and passes Pinning checks (p.76)

VEHICLES
· Speeds and allowable shooting are different (p.57,58)
· Roads ad 6” to Cruising Speed for most vehicles (p.57)
· Defensive weapons are S4 or less (p.58)
· Optional Weapons (such as HK missiles) are not ‘free’ shots (p.58)
· Ordnance Barrages are move or fire, and scatter farther if out of LOS (p.58)
· Assume vehicles can pivot weapons vertically 45 degrees (p.59)
· Barrage weapons always hit side armor, unless the hole scatters off of the vehicle (p.60)
· Damage table is different (p.61)
· Entanglement is not guaranteed (p.61)
· Wrecks are both difficult and dangerous terrain (p.62)
· Obscured targets get cover saves (p.62)
· Smoke launchers are different (p.62)
· Hitting vehicles is speed-based only, no skimmer bonus (p.62)
· CC hits on vehicles are resolved against rear armor (p.63)
· You can swing at a vehicle on your opponent’s turn (p.63)
· Offensive and Defensive grenades are ‘krak lite’ vs. vehicles (p.63)
· Wounds spread when assaulting squadrons (p.64)
· Vehicles can give anyone(ish) a ride, with a few restrictions (p.66-67)
· Tanks (only) can ram (p.69)
· Flat-out speed for Fast non-skimmer vehicles is only 18” (p.70-71)
· Skimmers destroyed on an ‘immobilized’ result only at flat-out speeds, Skimmers Moving Fast is flat-out only and counts as obscured, and skimmers can dodge a ram on a 3+ (p.71)
· Walkers’ “Death or Glory” works a bit differently, and ‘weapon destroyed’ takes off entire arms (p.73)

WEAPONS
· Pistols are effectively 12”, Assault 1 weapons and a CCW (p.29)
· The number of wounds from multiple template weapons are all determined before assigning wounds, so multiple templates in one squad just got better (p.29)
· Blast weapons do not roll to hit, but scatter instead; there are no more partial hits (p.30)
· Gets hot! happens less for multi-shot weapons, but can cause multiple wounds (p.31)
· Rending is on the to-wound roll, and adds only d3 to Armor Penetration (p.31)
· Sniper weapons are rending as well as pinning (p.31)
· Barrage weapons are a little different, as are multiple barrages (p.32)
· Poisoned weapons are better for higher-S models (p.42)
· Power fists, thunder hammers, and lightning claws only get +1A when with a buddy (p.42)
· Models wielding two different special weapons never get +1A for two CCW (p.42)

WOUNDING
· Wound allocation is new (p.25)
· Instant death on units of multiple-wound models is clarified (p.26)

Plastic Parody
23-07-2008, 18:52
Offensive/Defensive Grenades *always* roll D6+4 for AP in CC.

Makes Orks quite tasty against Transports!

Not sure about defensive grenades but otherwise isnt new. Some great bitz in here though!

Meriwether
23-07-2008, 19:33
Um, orks are tastier against transports without using the grenades... With furious charge (and why would you not be charging a vehicle?) you're S4 anyway, you'd get more attacks, and depending on the speed of the vehicle you wouldn't hit only on sixes. This only really gives an advantage if you failed to destroy it and were still in contact the following player turn.

Meri

Lord Solar Plexus
23-07-2008, 19:34
TLOS = you check mini's view :)
If you're targetting a unit that is half hidden by the melee, it gets a cover save.

Which would only apply to MC's and most tanks I suppose. A defense in depth will be really really difficult. Two squads behind each other will work but a third will have its LoS blocked by intervening models, melee or not.

The Song of Spears
23-07-2008, 20:03
Which would only apply to MC's and most tanks I suppose. A defense in depth will be really really difficult. Two squads behind each other will work but a third will have its LoS blocked by intervening models, melee or not.

I don't quite understand you. Can you please quote the page you are referencing for this?

don_mondo
23-07-2008, 20:38
You couldn't last edition -- in fact you couldn't move and then embark. You had to start your move within 2" of the access points in order to embark. (So the vehicle could move up and you could pile in, but you couldn't move up to the vehicle and pile in).

But now you can move within 2" during your movement phase, embark, and then the vehicle can move if it has not already done so. Particularly large, open-topped transports (battlewagons, for example) could add a lot of range to a bunch of burna boyz' shots...


While it's now a moot point (unless some out there are still playing 4th ed, I've heard several people state this recently. But you could move, embark and then have the vehicle move in 4th ed. Page 62, 4th ed rules, "A unit can embark by moving each model to within 2"..." Then a couple lines later in the Embarking section, If the vehicle has not moved before its passengers got aboard then it can move normally, as soon as the unit is aboard." There is no caveat that I see about not being abe to move if the unit had to move to embark.
In fact, 5th has changed this for fast skimmers, in that they cannot move flat out if a unit embarks, where previously they could embark and then move 24" across the table (or more with Star Engines).

Lord Solar Plexus
23-07-2008, 20:40
@The Song of Spheres: No, I do not have a rulebook.

I gathered that they changed the LoS rule to true LoS. I infer that a model looking straight at another model's back has its LoS blocked. With two squads, you can position the second one in the gaps, so they can shoot through. For a third squad however there wouldn't be any gaps anymore.

A melee, due to its very nature, offers no gaps, so all you could do is shoot over it at an angle at things towering over the melee (assuming its basic troopers fighting).

Is that not so?

IJW
23-07-2008, 20:46
I gathered that they changed the LoS rule to true LoS. I infer that a model looking straight at another model's back has its LoS blocked.
Yes, according to the outline of the model in the way, and ignoring the shooter's own unit.


With two squads, you can position the second one in the gaps, so they can shoot through. For a third squad however there wouldn't be any gaps anymore.
That doesn't follow. For starters, unit coherency is more than 1", plus most models aren't cylindrical - they aren't going to block the entire space above their base.


A melee, due to its very nature, offers no gaps, so all you could do is shoot over it at an angle at things towering over the melee (assuming its basic troopers fighting).
Again, models aren't cylindrical. Sometimes it will be possible to draw LoS through small gaps.

Meriwether
24-07-2008, 02:59
While it's now a moot point

Well, if I'm gonna be wrong this time, it might as well be about something moot. :D

Meri

Zander77
24-07-2008, 05:14
I thought that all units that Turboboost have the same coversave, 3+. As per USR on p. 76

If this is true then DE jetbikes are better now because their save would have been a 4+ when turbo boosting before, and is now a 3+.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-07-2008, 11:07
Yes, according to the outline of the model in the way, and ignoring the shooter's own unit.


Well...if the LoS hits that other models back I don't see how the shape will influence that. I didn't mention the exception of his own unit's models since I imagined the situation of either a melee obstructing LoS (where the squad you want to shoot with wouldn't be involved in or the question becomes moot) or 2+ other squads.



That doesn't follow. For starters, unit coherency is more than 1", plus most models aren't cylindrical - they aren't going to block the entire space above their base.


True. Nevertheless this would take quite an effort to construct. I can see it being possible in a deployed, static staggered defense but as soon as movement on both sides comes into play it'll be much harder. Even with two or more largish mobs or broods it might be very difficult, and even in a pre-planned defense your field of fire becomes really small.



Again, models aren't cylindrical. Sometimes it will be possible to draw LoS through small gaps.

Sometimes, agreed, but it'll be situational and I imagine quite tedious.

IJW
24-07-2008, 11:36
Well...if the LoS hits that other models back I don't see how the shape will influence that.

http://www.landmarksofbritain.co.uk/warseer/los-non-cyl.jpg

That might make it clearer what I meant by models not being cylindrical - if the orange model is the enemy, a shooter behind the green, red and blue models would still have a clear LoS to the head of the orange model.


Nevertheless this would take quite an effort to construct. I can see it being possible in a deployed, static staggered defense but as soon as movement on both sides comes into play it'll be much harder. Even with two or more largish mobs or broods it might be very difficult, and even in a pre-planned defense your field of fire becomes really small.

http://www.landmarksofbritain.co.uk/warseer/los-triple-unit.jpg

1" bases and 2" coherency makes it pretty easy, although everyone but the red unit will be getting covers saves, both when shot and when shooting.

TrotzkiHatesMe
24-07-2008, 15:19
Not really something sneaky ... but if verified it would be..

It is mentioned in several threads, that psykers can now use powers from INSIDE of vehicles. After reading he rulebook several times, I wasn´t able to actually see any RAW-proof.

The main argument seems to be, that the whole "Models in transports aren´t on the table" - thing isn´t mentioned anywhere, but after checking the old book I also can´t find it. If I remember right the whole issue was just started by a FAQ mentioning that these models are "gone" in game terms. Is there something I´m missing .... ?

Just thinking of the self-fortune-ing serpent riding seer council of doom... :confused:

Varath- Lord Impaler
24-07-2008, 15:24
Preliminary Bombardment now causes D6 S5 Ap4 hits on any unit hit and causes pinning.

Annoyingly, the only unit which was hit by this was my Command Platoon squad.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-07-2008, 15:35
http://www.landmarksofbritain.co.uk/warseer/los-non-cyl.jpg

That might make it clearer what I meant by models not being cylindrical


Sorry, I was imprecise. I know what you mean with that. I was speaking of a situation where the orange model is right behind the blue one ("looking straight at his back") or a model from a third squad stands in the gap. The more models in front of the shooter, the more likely this becomes, and a defense in depth IMO consists of at least two lines of INF plus heavy support behind them - and those are often sitting and kneeling.



1" bases and 2" coherency makes it pretty easy

That's not defense in depth, that's defense in line, and you wouldn't want any blasts/ordnance/templates hitting that (especially since the new save/casualty removal rules might make keeping coherency a tad harder).

The Song of Spears
24-07-2008, 15:43
Not really something sneaky ... but if verified it would be..

It is mentioned in several threads, that psykers can now use powers from INSIDE of vehicles. After reading he rulebook several times, I wasn´t able to actually see any RAW-proof.

The main argument seems to be, that the whole "Models in transports aren´t on the table" - thing isn´t mentioned anywhere, but after checking the old book I also can´t find it. If I remember right the whole issue was just started by a FAQ mentioning that these models are "gone" in game terms. Is there something I´m missing .... ?

Just thinking of the self-fortune-ing serpent riding seer council of doom... :confused:

Well, it's not stated outright anywhere. But the rule that i think people are going off is "models in a transport still count as scoring" thus it seems that there is no longer any argument for models not being in the game when they board a transport (which never made sense because models in a transport could use fire points)

In addition the new Eldar FAQ makes no mention of disallowing farseers to use their powers on their ride. And this is as it should be as there is no valid argument as to why the farseer inside the tank cant draw a LOS to the tank he is in.

So by proxy, assumption and lack of clarification eldar players will be fortuning and guiding their rides until GW official FAQ states otherwise. But to be honest with the skimmer nerf and the fact you have a 100+ point farseer doing so little in a transport i cant see this really being an issue anyway.

IJW
24-07-2008, 15:47
That's not defense in depth, that's defense in line, and you wouldn't want any blasts/ordnance/templates hitting that (especially since the new save/casualty removal rules might make keeping coherency a tad harder).
This is what I was answering:

With two squads, you can position the second one in the gaps, so they can shoot through. For a third squad however there wouldn't be any gaps anymore.
Which is clearly wrong.

Your original post had no reference to defence in depth.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-07-2008, 17:25
This ...

Originally Posted by Lord Solar Plexus
With two squads, you can position the second one in the gaps, so they can shoot through. For a third squad however there wouldn't be any gaps anymore.

...is clearly wrong.


Yes, it is, if you place them as in your picture, a case I wasn't discussing. That is only the reiterated short version. I thought you had read the ongoing discussion before that. Sorry for making assumptions and not being clear. I always meant three squads each behind the other.



Your original post had no reference to defence in depth.

My original post is #120 and of course mentions that. I hadn't thought about positioning squads in line with each other. I don't think it is a good idea most of the time for various reasons, at least not for Guard. You're open to flank charges and flamer shots and the advantage of no consolidation is lost if someone can assault three squads at once. It looks good on paper but I seriously doubt its practicability on the table when it comes to very small gaps, shaky hands, narrow angles etc.

IJW
24-07-2008, 17:40
Even with the example from post #120, the majority of the third unit are going to be able to draw LoS, unless the front two units are Terminators or similarly bulky models. That said, I'm probably being over-picky about wording - and as you say, they'd be very vulnerable to blasts, templates and chargers.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-07-2008, 19:02
Okay, I'll go so far and agree that it is possible in principle. I really need to test it much more thoroughly before saying anything stupid, and since we're going off on a tangent here let's conclude this here.

winterwolves
09-08-2008, 07:11
There is no "all on your own test" any more.
Where it used to be majority or lowest, it is now majority or highest.
You can split your close combat attacks if you are in base contact with more than one unit.

Just a couple of things I did not spot as I read this thread.
Also, I think stubborn is way better than fearless now.

afshinbb
09-08-2008, 07:18
just like in shooting you only get one save as a farseer against perils. you can either take your ghosthelm save or your invul. not fail one and then take the other. whoever does this is cheating. wow. ghosthelm is better than invul since you dont have to reroll so most would take that. but if you fail you take a wound not getting an invul on top of it, cheeesh.

Lord Solar Plexus
09-08-2008, 07:32
Well, it's not stated outright anywhere. But the rule that i think people are going off is "models in a transport still count as scoring" thus it seems that there is no longer any argument for models not being in the game when they board a transport (which never made sense because models in a transport could use fire points)


Models in transports are still not on the table, physically speaking, just as in 4th. Several people (myself included) have argued back then that despite the physical absence of models the UNIT is still there. Otherwise it could not have been transported from A to B. Even though it is a moot point now, in 5th the models are still physically absent.

Looking at my rulebook (the German version, mind you, which sometimes makes things difficult due to sloppy translation) has a line in it that all measurements (scoring isn't explicitly mentioned) in regard to the passengers should use the transport's hull as a reference point.

This leads to the situation that as far as I am aware you can shoot passengers with smart missiles (not that I'd play it like this!). They do not need LoS and you can measure the range, and any model can die anyways, so its exact position isn't relevant.

At first I thought this would apply to barrage which doesn't need LoS either but here you cannot resolve which/how many models are actually under the marker, so it falls apart at that point.



In addition the new Eldar FAQ makes no mention of disallowing farseers to use their powers on their ride.


I agree, that's as it should be but the IG FAQ doesn't mention that I can't use my powers on the opponent's turn. ;) Usually the rules tell you what you can do, so your line of reasoning doesn't lead anywhere.



But to be honest with the skimmer nerf and the fact you have a 100+ point farseer doing so little in a transport i cant see this really being an issue anyway.

Sorry, what skimmer nerf?

Mitheral
09-08-2008, 16:36
Skimmers aren't only hit on a 6 anymore.

Geddonight
09-08-2008, 18:19
just like in shooting you only get one save as a farseer against perils. you can either take your ghosthelm save or your invul. not fail one and then take the other. whoever does this is cheating. wow. ghosthelm is better than invul since you dont have to reroll so most would take that. but if you fail you take a wound not getting an invul on top of it, cheeesh.

This is patently false.

You can only use one type of "save" per wound, yes (armor, invulnerable or cover). The Perils section says specifically that you can only use invulnerable saves (rerolled if the initial roll succeeds in saving against PotW).

Now... go read the ghost helm entry again. It isn't a "save" per se; it isn't an armor, cover, or invulnerable save. It is a piece of wargear that prevents a Perils of the Warp from taking place. If the ghost helm fails, the farseer may still attempt to save against the attack.

***

Here's a potential stealth change--I cannot find anywhere that indicates Crews are shaken or stunned if the vehicle suffers a weapon destroyed or immobilized result (as opposed to the old edition where penetrating hits always stunned in addition to other damage).

correct me if I am in error, of course.

Gensuke626
09-08-2008, 20:17
Sorry, what skimmer nerf?

Skimmers are hit in Assault as Easily as any other Tank.

Skimmers can not end Above terrain anymore and must take dangerous terrain tests.

Skimmers Moving fast is now a 4+ saving throw if you moved 13" or more in the last movement phase. Compare that with moving 7" or more and changing all penetrating hits into glancing hits.

Skimmers got hit hard, but they're still very very good. The gap between Skimmers and Non-skimmers is just much more narrow now.

arachnid
09-08-2008, 20:36
you can still launch smoke after running with walkers.

good to know