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ebolatheripe
30-10-2005, 08:23
Does a Tzeenchian army need to have almost half of the army's points sunk into characters, as I see in most lists, just to be competitive:eyebrows: ? Is Tzeenchian magic so weak that it takes more mages in the army to make their magic phase damaging, or do most Tzeenchian players just like magic and the high number of Champ/Mages in the army reflect that?

P.S.= Can any players out there share any tricks they learned concerning Tzeenchian magic:evilgrin: ?

Reinnon
30-10-2005, 08:38
its a fool who tries and claims that a tzeentch army isn't about magic, it is.

more characters = more power dice = stronger magic phase and the nature of the lore (can be damn powerful or do nothing) means that you have to cast alot of spells to make it effective.

also, the staff of change is the best magic arcane item in the game (ignoring dispel scrolls).

the whole point of the tzeentch mark is to dominate the magic phase, otherwise it isn't a very good mark, the army i would consider doing is below:

lord with staff of change and maybe a dispel scroll, on a chariot or a hore (or even unmounted)

asp champion on horse with great weapon and dispel scroll

asp champion with great weapon and 2 dispel scrolls, and maybe a battle standard

2-3 units of 16 maruders

4 chariots of tzeentch

1 unit of chosen knights of tzeentch

a few units of maruder horsemen

a unit (or 2) of screamers

2 spawn

that should be in the 2000 - 2500 range, and gives you 15 power dice and 6 dispel dice with 4 scrolls....should give you solid magic offence and solid defense, and numbers of troops which tzeentch lacks if you go warriors.

and it doesn't use the cliche dragon combo

Selsaral
02-11-2005, 21:11
IMHO the weakness of Tzeentch are their spells. They are inferior. The staff of change is fantastic, particularly defensively, and even though they have tons of power dice their spells aren't that devastating.

The key to tzeentch magic is to include a slannesh caster or two. The slannesh casters can benefit from the large quantities of spell dice, and their spells are much nastier than tzeentch spells.

Of course you need to basically be undivided to do this, and it greatly restricts your army selection. So there are pros and cons to it.

But an undivided/tzeentch/slannesh army has been MUCH more effective for me than a pure tzeentch army.

In 2k points, buy a chaos mortal sorcerer or aspiring champion (leadership 8), and make him the general. Then buy a beastlord with the staff of change (leadership 8), and a slannesh hero or two of whatever race you want.

Now you can mix and match your marks all you want, and although your core must be mortals, you can bring in plenty of beasts as specials. And now you have this devastating spell combo.

Sanjuro
03-11-2005, 07:24
The key to tzeentch magic is to include a slannesh caster or two. The slannesh casters can benefit from the large quantities of spell dice, and their spells are much nastier than tzeentch spells.


This is very true. And it sickens me.

Sure, the Tzeentch list is about magic. Mediocre magic. It simply cannot compete with Slaanesh magic.

Chris_Tzeentch
12-11-2005, 23:11
I have been using Slaanesh mortal and Slaanesh Deamon armies, using Slaanesh magic in both obviously, and while good, I must admit I prefer using Tzeentch magic. I am not denying that Slaanesh lore has some fantastic spells, but stuff like green fire, blue fire, indigo fire etc if used correctly, can be absolutely lethal.

Kerill
14-11-2005, 11:22
I would say armies have expensive champions more for their dispel dice than their power dice, at least for me. And its more cost effective than having a undivided hero and a sorcerer shaman. I often stick an undivided hero with the book of secrets in for his dispel die (and the chance of the sword of rhuin and because I fell I need some justification why he is hanging around with a tzeentch force).Added to that several of the Tzeentch spells are most useful in combat or for combat units therefore people have more hero's.

They also add tactical flexibility to an army that will be outnumbered- 2 hero's can manage a draw or win against many enemy units or can be used to chase off fast cavalry/etc. without upsetting your battle line too much.

I'm not hot on the idea of mixing marks too much except in a larger army. But add in a dark emissary and you grty some cool characterful spells for those many power dice (and +2 for your dispel dice pool). You could go truthsayer for the extra survivability, more useful combat spells and +1 to dispel but it isnt too fluffy.

Crube
14-11-2005, 11:26
I find the fear of Tzeentch spells something worth using.

there is the potential for some real direct damage to be done, but due to the natue of Tzeentch, it doesnt always work. Taht for me is party of the appeal. If you cn get your spells off well, hen it can be devastating, but otherwise - phizzle...

So personally, i use a lord with mark of TZeentch, staff of change and Gaze of the gods (for a laugh. It is in the nature of Tzeentch too...), and a Hreo, with the mark of Tzeentch, a Spell Familiar, and a dispell scroll.

Hey, it either works well or fails miserably. (ahem - Carnage - ahem)

Selsaral
14-11-2005, 21:17
I have been using Slaanesh mortal and Slaanesh Deamon armies, using Slaanesh magic in both obviously, and while good, I must admit I prefer using Tzeentch magic. I am not denying that Slaanesh lore has some fantastic spells, but stuff like green fire, blue fire, indigo fire etc if used correctly, can be absolutely lethal.

Yeah it definitely depends on your opponents. My primary adversary is Skaven, and red fire, blue fire, and green fire are pretty worthless against them. Killing 2-point slaves who won't cause panic tests isn't helpful. But Luxurious Torment will pop a ratling gun right out of his protective arena that few other spells could target. Indigo fire remains dangerous against skaven also.

Against High elves, my other primary adversary, red fire and blue fire become MUCH more effective, and Indigo Fire remains just as deadly.

TzarNikolai
14-11-2005, 22:24
tzeentch is IMO basically a shooty chaos army.
thats wh the magic phase should be so good, we pay a very heavy price being the worst chaos army with psychology but we get direct damage spells and such instead, and pay through the nose for it. its a trade off. tzeentch isn't any other chaos army then has extra magic. its just a different chaos army.

one question though. how many power dice should i be using for friendly play? i tried to make an effective list but when i ended up with 14 PD i toned it down to 11 (dropping a hero and a regiment mark). but then i got my ass handed to me. (i was playing woodelves, failed a bunch of fear tests to charge and ran away. refer to earlier comment on psychology)
any suggestions?

der_lex
15-11-2005, 17:36
Very good point on Tzeentch being a 'shooty Chaos army'.
That's the way I usually play them (hang back and blast your opponent), and it hasn't let me down yet.

For friendly play I'd say 'pack as many powerdice as your opponent lets you get away with' :D

Seriously though, over here I usually play with a 2500 point army (if anyone has made an effective 2000 point army that doesn't use Beasts, let me know!) that has 15 power dice, but nobody's complained (yet). But if your opponent gets annoyed because of that, feel free to take less...although a magic-light tzeentch army would be the same as a Bret army on foot, IMO...

And Tzeentch magic useless against Skaven?

Two words...

'Indigo Fire'

Hordes of low toughness critters are what this spell was made for...nothing more fun than to turn half of a big infantry block into Horrors, that stand a fair chance of beating up the rest of the unit, and overrunning for more havoc (or at least forming a temporary speed bump).

Heck, even the 'magic missile' spells are good against them, since you usually kill a bunch of critters even if you roll a low STR. You just need to concentrate fire on one unit at a time with all casters to do real damage, since there's just so damn many of them.

And Ratling Guns are the reason the Changer gave us Screamers...

Selsaral
15-11-2005, 20:51
And Tzeentch magic useless against Skaven?

Two words...

'Indigo Fire'

Hordes of low toughness critters are what this spell was made for...nothing more fun than to turn half of a big infantry block into Horrors, that stand a fair chance of beating up the rest of the unit, and overrunning for more havoc (or at least forming a temporary speed bump).

Heck, even the 'magic missile' spells are good against them, since you usually kill a bunch of critters even if you roll a low STR. You just need to concentrate fire on one unit at a time with all casters to do real damage, since there's just so damn many of them.

And Ratling Guns are the reason the Changer gave us Screamers...

Didn't say useless. I was just saying that Slannesh magic fairs better against them than does Tzeentch magic, compared to casting on high elves for example.

You're right that red fire kills lots of critters....2 point critters who won't cause panic tests.

And you're even more right about screamers. I buy the single unit I can get every battle, pretty much always nail a ratling gun with them, and then they die.

Captain Ardias
17-11-2005, 14:35
I play Tzeentch hordes of chaos, and must say that the lore of Tzeentch has always worked very well for me

Sanjuro
17-11-2005, 15:53
My grand moment with the lore of Tzeentch versus Skaven was when facing a Nurglitch army.

My Exalted Daemon of Tzeentch flew behind the regiment that housed Nurglitch and I managed to cast Purple Fire, on a whopping 15 (with 3d6).

He rolled an 11 for his leadership test. Bye-bye 500+ point general! Hope you like it in the Warp. Serve your new masters well, or they will feed your soul to the Screamers.

:angel:

Brother xavier
23-11-2005, 22:41
an army I used had an undivided general 2x units of tzeentch warriors, 2x units of 4 tzeentch knights, 2 tzeentch chariots, and a unit of khorne warriors so that i had some dispel dice and i was able to swamp my enemies in magic using 2 tzeentch asp champs and a sourcerer.

Brother xavier
23-11-2005, 22:44
my favourite spell is green fire as the unit almost always takes heavy casualties.