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BullBuchanan
23-04-2005, 02:56
Has Anyone got any suggestions on defeating a 2000 point Bretonnian list? My opponent usually deploys 3 large blocks of troops, with a few supporting units as well. His List is usually as Follows

12 KoTR Lance

12 KoTR Lance

12 Grail Knights Lance

16 Archers

Lord on Pegasus

Paladin

Trebuchet

and maybe a damsel or two



now my real problem lies with these enormous blocks of knights, and alrgely the grail knights. When he charges with those things he gets 18 strength 6 attacks. That is just absolutely insane. I know there has to be some way to beat these things but ive tried everything I can think of. Any time I get anything real nasty in there it ends up increasing his ward giving him a 2+ AS and a 5+ ward. To date Ive tried Dwarfs and bretonnians in smaller groups(of 9) and each time I end up getting over run. With 12 in a unit most of his knight blocks start of with a +5 to their CR (3 ranks+Outnumber+Standard). Im really having a tough time figuring out how to dela with these guys because most units that I field (dwarfs high elves, and bretonnians) are all S3 giving him a 2+ save a good portion of the time and me hoping to get lucky from some failed saves. However I cant rest on him failing 3 or more saves a turn in order to win combat. Their Immunity to pyschology is another big problem. If anyone could throw some ideas my way I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

User Name
23-04-2005, 03:56
do brets get wards from magical attacks? of not then load up on s7 bolt throwers and cannons with rune of burning, any magical warmachine, or better yet if yuor good at guessing a stone thrower will absolutly murder such big blocks of knights, and stubron units of dwarfs, it dosnt matter if you lose you still only break on a 9, which isnt likley. then those big flanks are ripe for a charge.

BullBuchanan
23-04-2005, 04:10
I believe the do get the wards regardless unless they flee. How about a magic heavy High Elves army? Or High elves strats in general? Maybe heavy on BT's?

MVA
23-04-2005, 07:23
The Brets lose the blessing save if they flee or choose to refuse a challenge that they could otherwise accept.

I suppose you could always try gear a force to fight a war of attrition, that being one of the Betonnians usual weaknesses. It's probably one of the few ways you're going to get the upper hand against them with the Dwarfs, but considering Dwarfs get Stubborn ironbreakers (with a 1+ save), unbreakable Slayers and you can tool up a few other units to be more resolute than the usual dwarf, it can be done. You just need to make sure you survive the charge and not be in a situation where you're getting flanked or rear ended by anything else.

War machines will help too, sure, the Brets have the ward save, but it's still as good a tactic as any as he'd need to be rolling VERY well to save a grail knight unit that big and nicely ranked up from two cannon shots and a stone thrower to boot.

Etienne de Beaugard
23-04-2005, 13:13
Elves - The Bretonnian general displays one key weakness, almost no supporting units. You shall use this weakness to achieve victory. Some key points:

*The Bretonnian lance, wheels like any other unit, except, due to its narrow frontage and cavalry bases, it has a disproportionately long profile and thus a wide turning arc. By positioniong fast moving units on either side of a lance, you can prevent it from both marching and turning. You also limit the unit ability to reform, or do much of anything, beyond running up and down the field. If your units have bows, you can harase the knights with impunity.

*Keep moving. Bretonnians are one of the fastest armies in the game. If you put down any unit with a movement of less than 8", the Bretonnians will catch it, break it, and run it down. Thus, every model in your army must either fly or be on a horse. I know this precludes the use of RBTs, but in my experience, RBTs never really helped my HE opponents.

*Don't bother with banners. Your not going to win this game in close combat, so why give up extra points.

My suggested list would be:
Archmage on steed - tricked out as you see fit, blasty magic good
3x Mage on steed - tricked out as you see fit, blasty magic good
3x 5 Silverhelms - Champion and musician (fully armored)
2x 5 Elyrrian Reavers - Bow exchange and musician
4 Great Eagles

Strategy - Play keep-away. Dominate the magic phase. Use your eagles and Reavers to herd the knightly lances as mentioned above (not any easy task, but possible). Target the lord with magic relentlessly until the pegasus is dead. Then use magic and Silver Helms to slay the peasant archers and the trebuchette crew. Once these tasks are complete, just keep herding the knights up and down the table, whittling away at their ranks with magic a bow fire.

Dwarfs - You'll win this game in the set-up phase. Set up your army in dense terrain. Do everything you can to limit your opponent's ability to charge you with more than one lance of knights at a time. Take big! units and if possible, find ways to make them stubborn or allow re-rolls on break tests. If you can hold against the initial charge (and Dwarfs can, with luck) you can begin the attrition war that you will win.

Stouty
23-04-2005, 22:49
I always think a rear charge with a fresh unit of zombies does the trick.
You get 4 CS (three ranks + outnumber/banner) he gets 3 (outnumber, standrd,1 kill)
Outnumbered by fear causing enemy= auto break
Just bog em down with bodies (unbreakbel bodies preferably)

Etienne de Beaugard
24-04-2005, 10:13
I always think a rear charge with a fresh unit of zombies does the trick.
You get 4 CS (three ranks + outnumber/banner) he gets 3 (outnumber, standrd,1 kill)
Outnumbered by fear causing enemy= auto break
Just bog em down with bodies (unbreakbel bodies preferably)

Unfortunately, BullB isn't using undead. The High Elves lack unbreakable bodies, and the Dwarfs are usually too slow to maneouvre a rear charge.

Stouty
24-04-2005, 15:29
He hasn't specified what armies he has/uses.
You could always go for the all duelist force metioned a whil back, or anoter DoW force.
Lots of pike should see you through the toughest of times.

EvC
24-04-2005, 18:08
I've got a game against Bretonnians this Tuesday, but I have a vampire army, so I'm hoping my fear-causingness will help a lot of the time. Course, that won't help against the Grail knights, but I'm not going to rely on it entirely.

Etienne de Beaugard
24-04-2005, 19:46
He hasn't specified what armies he has/uses.


Au contraire


]Im really having a tough time figuring out how to dela with these guys because most units that I field (dwarfs high elves, and bretonnians) are all S3 giving him...

I've also gleened from past threads that these are the three armies BB is working on right now.

BullBuchanan
24-04-2005, 19:52
Im really having a tough time figuring out how to dela with these guys because most units that I field (dwarfs high elves, and bretonnians) are all S3 giving him a 2+ save a good portion of the time and me hoping to get lucky from some failed saves.

:D BTW thanks for the advice guys. Im Thinking about using a high powered HE magic army and taking Lore of Metal on at least one mage hoping to crumble their lances in at least their grail knights. If I can do that they wont be nearly so scary, but then again outside of that spell Metal is pretty much garbage and it only has a 12" range anyway. If I take teclis however it has unlimited range, but to give up 650 points to one mage in a 2000 point game....eh......Id like to take 2 RBT but unfortunately I only have one model for it atm, so i just have to use one.

Question If I cast arrow attraction on his unit of grail knights, and I also have Second Sign of Amul in play(3 rerolls; Heavens) can I use a re-roll to roll to hit if Ive already failed once normally and a second time with arrow attraction? I know Second sign of amul says that you can't re-roll re-rolls; but its worded in such a way that I can't tell whethere it pertains to just the spell itself or the game in total. If I can indeed do this then chances are good with 3rbt's I could wipe his entire unit in turn one or at least severly demolish it.

One last question. The grail Vow makes his grail knights immune to pyschology, does this include panic as well? I'm pretty sure that it does, but still thought id ask.

Thanks.

warlord hack'a
24-04-2005, 20:20
immune to psychology means immune to everything except breaktests, so you are immune to panic, fear, terror etc. About beating the brets: take a very big unit that can catch the charge, meaning stubborn or unbreakable. And get everything that says: no armour save (S6 or 7 most of the time also count as nor armour save). He pays points for those saves, neutralize them..

I myself am a lucky bastard, I play O&G, and I have the most feared anti cav models in the game and use them plenty: fanatics!!! Of course a smart bret player would charge through my fanatics but he sure as hell will not arrive with a full unit..

As as dwarf I would field lots of cannons and stonethrowers, although you can use them only in turn 1-3 (turn one he will pray and you shoot, turn 2 he will move 16 inch toward you and you will shoot, turn 3 you can still fire if lucky) you can still do some serious damage, especially with rune of accuracy and rune of penetration combined on a stonethrower. Concentrate fire for full effect. Also get a BsB, rolling a check on a stubborn 9 is great, rerolling it is even better. Take out his flyer with your warmachines, that can be a pain for you. Get a gyrocopter to prevent him from marching and steam him insode his armour. Get big blocks of dwarves so you outnumber even after casualties.

that's about it, shoudl be possible with dwarves, High elves I do not know well enough to give any usefull advise)

BullBuchanan
27-04-2005, 02:04
Question If I cast arrow attraction on his unit of grail knights, and I also have Second Sign of Amul in play(3 rerolls; Heavens) can I use a re-roll to roll to hit if Ive already failed once normally and a second time with arrow attraction? I know Second sign of amul says that you can't re-roll re-rolls; but its worded in such a way that I can't tell whethere it pertains to just the spell itself or the game in total. Thanks.

My question may have gotten lost in my post. Does anyone happen to know the awnser to this?

taer
28-04-2005, 03:35
You may never re-roll a re-roll, no matter the source. This has been clarified in nearly every publication mentioning re-rolls in any form.

Now, I know you probably don't care anymore, but I'd take a cannon (or two), and sandwich it in between two blocks of infantry. Remember, Brets deploy in long narrow line. For set-up, I'd kitty-kat a corner, with terrain limiting the avenues of approach, both to force the knights to walk right into your guns, and also to bog them down by running into each other. I'd also, if I was playing dwarves, take the rune of Slowness on something. Something juicy. That's deployed at the mouth of your makeshift bottle-neck, with a small unit to flank the brettonians either when they fail their charge due to the rune of slowness, or when they get stuck to your unit. I'd also make sure they could flank the brets in the unfortunate case that you lose combat and run.

Also, whoever it was that suggested the only way to beat a fast army was to be faster is goofy.

BullBuchanan
28-04-2005, 07:48
I actually am gonna concentrate on playing my highe lf magic list against them for now. I absoluetely annihialted my bretonnian opponent today who brought

2 units of 12 KOTR each

1 unit of 12 Grail knights

16 Bowmen

1 trebuchet

1 paldin BSB

1 Lord on Royal Peg


I had 10 levels of magic all with the seer ability and I decimated him. Now I did something in the battle that my opponent didnt feel was right, but because there was nothing in the rules about it I did it anyway. My two mages on horse ran up to his two blocks of knights(1 grail, 1 kotr) and since I had to measure for spells that I cast on thos units he knew he wasn't in charge range when his tunr came around so he just marched his two blocks of twelve in front of my mages staying one inch from them and keeping about 3 inches inbetween his blocks.

Now because characters can always move at double pace even within 8 inches of an enemy I moved my characters through the opening bewteen his ranks and appeared on his flank. I had no intention on charging with my mages but this prevented them from being charged and also opened up knew spell opportunities. Now there wasn't anything in the rules from what I read that should have prevented me from doing this, but my opponent thought it was ridiculous that I could run inbetween his ranks like that. Just want to make sure I didn't do anything wrong. Any clarification?

Sariel
28-04-2005, 09:26
Now because characters can always move at double pace even within 8 inches of an enemy I moved my characters through the opening bewteen his ranks and appeared on his flank. I had no intention on charging with my mages but this prevented them from being charged and also opened up knew spell opportunities. Now there wasn't anything in the rules from what I read that should have prevented me from doing this, but my opponent thought it was ridiculous that I could run inbetween his ranks like that. Just want to make sure I didn't do anything wrong. Any clarification?

That whole double-pacing thing? It only applies to characters on foot. Once you put them on a steed, they have to march like everyone else.

Other than that, so long as you can stay 1" away from enemy models (and there is actually space for your model to squeeze through), feel free to run circles around him......

Eldacar
28-04-2005, 09:56
You can't do it if you're on a horse. Otherwise, you can do it.
And he took 12 Grail Knights? That's a lot of points in the one unit...

Forgotmytea
28-04-2005, 11:14
12 Grail Knights?! Ow...

Anyway, I've fought brets a few times before, and I recommend large blocks of troops. My Chas Dwarfs just got flanked and ripped apart, despite a counter-charge by the bull centaurs. However, My Night Gobbos managed to hold them in place long enough for WEolf riders to counter-charge, ditto the undead. If you're using VC, make sure every wizard has the invocation. Speed-bumps work so well, then target them with counter-charges by Black Knights and Dire wolves. They die easily if they don't have the charge and get hit in the flank. Also, if you get the curse as a spel, KEEP IT! Believe me, it'll rip through a unit as long as you keep it in play. :)

Etienne de Beaugard
28-04-2005, 12:52
Now because characters can always move at double pace even within 8 inches of an enemy I moved my characters through the opening bewteen his ranks and appeared on his flank.

While you shouldn't have been able to march, 8" is more than enough to maneouvre around to his unit's flanks, out of LOS. If he had 3" between his units, you had room to get between them.

This is exactly the kind of trick you can play on Bretonnian generals with large blocks of knights. It doesn't work as well, if the bretonnian player take small units of knights or mounted yoemen to guard those flanks.

BullBuchanan
28-04-2005, 19:07
ok guys thanks for the heads up, Ill let my opponent know. Fortunately this didnt really effect the game because both characters were mages and just continued to harrass that unit with spells anyway, which I could have done from inside his flanks.

btw steeds move 9 for HE w/Ilthilmar :)