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AKBandito
18-07-2008, 03:29
Dont post here on warseer much, but long time reader.

Our gaming group quit 40k about 6months after 40k 3rd Edition came out.
We mostly play Fantasy and warmachine/hordes now.
We found the gameplay extremely boring, and lacking any real strategy.
Basically 40k IMO has just become an excercise in dice rolling. ie "He who rolls the most dice wins", sorry if its harsh, but thats how we view 40k now.(the game for the kiddies)
its a shame really, because since 2nd edition the quality of the 40k minis is high, alot of very cool models released.

My question is this what has changed now that 5th ed is out, is the play style different, do I need a bucket of dice, does cover mean anything, ... etc ..etc i could go on. We tried 4th ed briefly but was hardly any different that 3rd.
I still have a massive range of models for 40k, that havn't been used for 7ish yrs. I even bought the old thunderhawk gunship - the metal one made by armorcast, for 400pounds, that how into 40k I was.


my 2c.

Metaphorazine
18-07-2008, 03:47
I played 4th a fair bit but thought it was fairly lacking and had too many loose rules. Havn't played a game of 5th yet, but I've been reading the rulebook for the last 2 days and I like how it's been tightened up. There's still issues, but things are making a bit more sense.

I'd suggest grabbing all your models (including the thunderhawk), heading down to the nearest GW, and getting the staff to show you how things are done in 5th. And bask in the celebrity status your thunderhawk will give you. :)

Spook101
18-07-2008, 04:12
cover means a little bit more than 4th, unless you played 4th the real way rather than the lazy mans way.
snipers are more powerful, with the possible exception of the eldar
your vehicles won't be slaughtered by the necron basic trooper
footsloggers aren't completely useless in those capture the objective missions
you have more goals than killing your enemy's dwarfish fire-line or vampire hoards.

Plastic Rat
18-07-2008, 04:27
While 5th edition can be a fun game in it's own right, I don't think anything has changed that you have mentioned as an issue for you.

The game is still focused on simplicity. There's even more die rolling than ever before (more cover saves, separate wounds). Cover is pretty much the same as it was before. It's mostly pointless for MEQ armies.

On the up side, the game does feel more 'fun' to play. It's got a certain cinematic quality to it, enhanced slightly by the true LOS.

Tactics and strategy are pretty much confined to a broad overview. For instance now, in 5th edition, units with Infiltrate or Scout may stay in reserve and enter from the sides of the table instead of the deployment zones. Decisions like this offer a feeling of some tactics and control. The missions are more focused on objectives as well, meaning you need to do some movement in order to claim objectives. This change has added a certain level of strategy.

Unfortunately in other ways there appears to be even less strategy, as with True Line of Sight, you can see pretty much any model no matter where. It's far more beneficial to you to put as much firepower onto a target in the hopes that he'll fail a save, than to try and maneuver so that your target has less cover.

Melee combat is even more of a closed box now, where the player is pretty much cut off from influencing anything meaningful until one side has won the melee, which pretty much comes down to stats and dice rolling.

Overall, as a mindless beer and pretzels game with added cinematic feel, it does it's job fairly well. It does feel like it's aimed more and more at kids. Especially the simplified (streamlined?) direction of the new codexes, with wargear and other options being removed in favor of more binary choices.

Warmachine and Hordes are in my opinion still far superior if you're looking for a game that requires you to think or use tactics. Unfortunately the issues they have with powergamers and jerks attracted by the 'play like you've got a pair' motto detract just as much.

I'd recommend giving 5th edition a try though, you might be pleasantly surprised. If you're into the fluff and art the new rulebook is a treat as well.

Likely I'll be chastised fairly soon for 'not seeing the tactics in 40k' and other sins by somebody with questionable spelling and a penchant for multiple exclamation marks.

Gensuke626
18-07-2008, 04:32
5th is to 4th as 4th is to 3rd.

3rd was the last big rules shift they had, and they made the game flow pretty well. I came in at late 2nd ed and I was amazed how much faster the game ran.

in 5th, it's still alot of dice rolling, but True LOS is back in, so positioning is as important as it was in 3rd.

It's still not the strategy game that Fantasy is, but it requires a bit more thought and foresight compared to earlier editions.

AKBandito
18-07-2008, 05:18
I am in fact going to play a game of 40k this weekend, using 5th ed.
Is why im asking, doesn't sound like much has changed.
Our gaming group play 2nd ed ALOT, what I miss is that back then every model mattered, and you tried to protect em as much as possible, and if you made a mistake - you paid for it, which i guess is kinda why our gaming group likes
warmachine/hordes so much, IMO the essence of the play style is similar to 2nd ed. ie. Very brutal and you get punished severely if you make a mistake.

But im not writing off 40k, Im going into this game with an open mind, the new
infiltrate/scout sounds good, like the 2nd ed statedy card forced march.

Plastic Rat
18-07-2008, 06:14
But im not writing off 40k, Im going into this game with an open mind, the new
infiltrate/scout sounds good, like the 2nd ed statedy card forced march.

Well if you're a fan of 2nd ed I understand even more. We still play 2nd edition here. I also see a lot of influence from 2nd ed for Warmachine and Hordes.

With regard to 2nd ed, there are a few more things pertaining to 5th. One thing is running. It's not double your movement though, you get a D6". Also ramming is back, but only tanks can ram stuff.

Now if only they brought back bikes as vehicles, thrown grenades, hiding and cover save modifiers, I'll be happy.

Oh, one thing you will notice, vehicles are probably the toughest they've been in any edition. Transports are mainly there to keep your troops alive in them, and they do that really well. Even when they are destroyed the only danger to the occupants is if they explode. Even then, you simply take a single Strength 4 hit to each occupant (no reroll) and you get armor saves.

The game is also a bit more 3d now, with rules for undamaged buildings, ruins and levels. For instance bikes cannot go up levels in a building which I liked and it makes sense. You also target only troops on a certain level with template and blast weapons.

AKBandito
18-07-2008, 07:55
Regarding vehicles, probably about the only thing i like about 3rd ed onwards, is that vehicles are harder to destroy. also for transports you dont lose the lot.
Ablative armour was always a must have for vehicles, we used to call it, when they got penetrated that "stripped off the paint" meaning first hit ignored.


Now if only they brought back bikes as vehicles, thrown grenades, hiding and cover save modifiers, I'll be happy.


dont forget overwatch )

Gensuke626
18-07-2008, 08:00
actually, tanks and such are very easy to destroy in 3rd and beyond. When Lascannons took over the job that Krak Missiles had once occupied...well...everything went to hell in a hand basket

Plastic Rat
18-07-2008, 08:11
actually, tanks and such are very easy to destroy in 3rd and beyond. When Lascannons took over the job that Krak Missiles had once occupied...well...everything went to hell in a hand basket

Let me guess, you didn't play 2nd ed?


(and yes, I forgot Overwatch. Overwatch would have turned me into a fanboy on the spot for 5th ed)

AKBandito
18-07-2008, 11:13
^^^^ i reckon.

I had a custom dreadnought i converted to give it a second assault cannon,..
the thing could destroy 2 vehicles per turn.
If i remember correctly assault cannon was d6+d10+8 armour pen for each hit

Plastic Rat
18-07-2008, 11:43
^^^^ i reckon.

I had a custom dreadnought i converted to give it a second assault cannon,..
the thing could destroy 2 vehicles per turn.
If i remember correctly assault cannon was d6+d10+8 armour pen for each hit

Yep! That's the one. Plus that puppy could churn out up to 9 shots a turn (if you took a gamble..). Not to mention D10 wounds per shot against anything that wasn't a vehicle.

After the first time an opponent's Avatar of Khaine got mulched by a single Assault Cannon shot, we houseruled the hell out of it.

Baneboss
18-07-2008, 12:08
Bandito you should give it a try. The game is extremely dynamic and by no means simple. To learn it - that is simple but to master it its harder.

Ofcourse if youre searching for something more chess like stick to WFB.

Helicon_One
18-07-2008, 12:17
Well 5th Ed is a revision of 4th Ed, which was a revision of 3rd Ed, there's not been a fundamental rewrite like there was between 2nd and 3rd.

If you hated 3rd Ed entirely, you probably won't be grabbed by the new ruleset, but as you alredy have all the models its not as though you're making a huge commitment to give it another go.

Shibboleth
19-07-2008, 10:41
... thats how we view 40k now.(the game for the kiddies)...I think in stores it might be more kid oriented, but in general I think simplification could be more aimed at modern console/PC gamers, who could be any age really.
DoW, etc. have brought 40K to the attention of many people who had hardly even heard of tabletop wargaming.
If they turn up at a store to see what it's all about then find the learning curve too steep too soon they won't hang around long.

Templar Ben
19-07-2008, 11:35
To me the feeling of 5th is Apocalypse for smaller armies. I have noticed that armies tend to have more models (due to troops rule) but that results in more being visible so they are just as quickly removed. Gameplay is slower but that could be due to new rules.

We will see if the above holds true in the long term but currently it seems like a lot of dice with little reason.

lanrak
19-07-2008, 11:39
Hi.
If you like the 40k models .
And you enjoyed 2nd ed.
And you want a cleaned up version of 2nd ed to play.
I would like to suggest you have a look at .
Stargrunt II or No Limits, rules sets.(Both free to down load.)

Current 40k is the no maths version,( apart from obsessing over list builds,)just roll dice to deternmine results, and use 'special rules' to prop up the game play.

TTFN
Lanrak

Venerable_Bede
19-07-2008, 11:50
Cover isn't much more important in 5th as compared to 4th? What rule book are you all reading?

Cover is now much more prevalent and viable considering that almost all cover gives a 4+ save.

Look, if you want "an accurate simulation of modern warfare" go play Squad Leader. That's not what 40k's about.

But to say it's a simple game devoid of tactics because it's not an accurate simulation is just not correct.

totgeboren
19-07-2008, 12:18
Omg all this talk of 2:ed makes me really appreciate 5:ed.

I played 2:ed for afew years when I was younger, but man, its fun to read the old books, but play-wise, it truly sucked.
The only things that mattered there was Maxed out heroes with displacerfields, terminators, assaultcannons and greater daemons.
Shooting was a mess, close-combat I dont even wanna think about, and you needed to fill an extra table with all the wargearcards and datafaxes and... well,I can go on and on.

Though 2:ed was better than 3:ed, but 5:ed is alot better than 2:ed.

sigur
19-07-2008, 12:47
Our gaming group quit 40k about 6months after 40k 3rd Edition came out.
We mostly play Fantasy and warmachine/hordes now.

A very understandable move. 3rd edition, especially early 3rd edition, was a time of unspeakable horror. Shortly before 4th edition, they got a few things fixed and since then, things have become better again (altough they couldn't get any worse than in 3rd edition really). I think that the game got a bit more tactial again now that people have got more options in 5th edition again (running, going prone). Ramming has been reintroduced as some kind of gimmick, which is nice.

All in all, I think that 5th edition 40k is a very playable game but you can't really compare it to 2nd edition any more.


edit: I don't really blame the designers; I think that their attentions are good. But this is just other times. People cry for "fast, hard, action-packed gameplay" instead of thoughtful and maybe more fun gameplay. GW has to run up against console games with flashy colours and all that, MMORPGs which are so "user-friendly" that 5year olds get their positive experiences within minutes and so on.

susu.exp
19-07-2008, 13:12
My question is this what has changed now that 5th ed is out, is the play style different, do I need a bucket of dice, does cover mean anything, ... etc ..etc i could go on. We tried 4th ed briefly but was hardly any different that 3rd.

I havenīt played a lot of 5th yet, but cover does mean more, now that cover saves are better. Yes, MEQs tend to have better armour saves than cover. But most other armies can get 3+ cover saves, or even 2+ ones. That marine in the open is more likely to get killed by plas/melta than a grot in cover and against basic weapons the only thing that puts the grot back is its toughness. If there are two MEQ armies on the field the one that uses cover will have a big advantage. If itīs MEQ vs. something else and the MEQ player ignores cover, the MEQ player will get trashed. If you stick to the at least 25% covered with terrain ratio, the clever use of said terrain will decide games.

You still need a bucket of dice, but that was true in 2nd Ed. as well (My terminators rapid fire at your grots, 10 sustained fire dice, up to 30 to wound rolls, not to mention multiple saves).

The way missions are played and only troops able to hold objectives adds new tactical depth.

Iīd say 5th is a pretty stong edition of 40k and a lot of the problems after the big change from 2nd to 3rd have been corrected. 4th was really 3.5, with relatively few changes.

I was out of the game from the end of 2nd Ed. to early 4th Ed. I felt the same as you, a lot of what made me like 2nd had gone. Then again, the new system really aged well and itīs in many respects a better game than 2nd was, plus they now seem to have come around to catering to older gamers, rather than 13 year olds. Itīs a leaner system, but not to the expense of depth. Also consider that an edition isnīt just the rulebook, but the Codices as well and the last couple of them were great.

Still, the current version of Epic beats it, if youīve got SM/TL stuff around as well, download the current rules from SG and have a go with them (I think Epic had a similar path to 40k, from the somewhat bloated SM/TL rules, through the oversimplified E:40k to the current "best of both worlds" E:A, corresponding through the partly broken 2nd Ed., the "kick out pretty much everything" 3rd - at least at the early stages, to the balance between cool stuff and lean rules thatīs around now).

Templar Ben
19-07-2008, 13:18
edit: I don't really blame the designers; I think that their attentions are good. But this is just other times. People cry for "fast, hard, action-packed gameplay" instead of thoughtful and maybe more fun gameplay. GW has to run up against console games with flashy colours and all that, MMORPGs which are so "user-friendly" that 5year olds get their positive experiences within minutes and so on.

You should see the changes wrought to D&D 4th.

~~~~~~

StarGrunt 2 can give you that 2nd edition feel. I think the designers are wanting to move back that way (with the changes to 5th and Apocalypse leading the way) but they are afraid that if they mention 2nd edition people will say "oh no, overwatch means it is hard to charge into close combat". This is version 3.6 with all that implies.

Wraithian
19-07-2008, 16:45
I see I'm not the only one that caught a hint of nostalgia from 2nd edition coming into 5th edition (running and ramming, mostly).

The new cover save thing, I'm not sure if I'm a fan of yet. It seems that everything grants cover saves. "Yes, my squad of Berzerkers scream profanities in your general direction, therefore granting them a 4+ cover save." ;)

Assaults have been a pretty one-sided affair since 40K came out. Who else here remembers Bloodthirsters (or other CC nasty) bouncing from one squad to another to another in one turn, in 2nd edition?

When 3rd came out, it was a matter of he who had most dice dropped in one turn, wins. While that is still the case now, it is to a much lesser extent.

I remember the first 3rd edition Chaos Codex (also known as "Pamphlet: Chaos." The thing was like, seriously, 16 pages), looking at the terminator entry, and shaking my head in disgust. A very points heavy choice for the same stat-line as a marine with an increased save, a smattering of combi-weapons, one reaper, and no invulnerable saves what so ever.

2nd edition, characters were a significant part of your army. Not just the named baddies, either (level 4 psyker, mark of Tzeentch, on a disc comes to mind), though the named ones were rightfully feared. 3rd edition, they could safely be taken down by copious amounts of laughter. Here in 5th, GW seems to have fixed at least some of the problems of characters. Characters are now a supporting choice instead of a 2nd edition army crutch or a 3rd edition waste of points.

All in all, I'm diggin' 5th ed. It's got its problems, but I still enjoy it.

kingofthenerds
19-07-2008, 17:52
I've played 40k since first edition, and I always read these "2nd" was so great story's and I often wonder if its just remembering the good parts and forgetting the MASSIVE flaws. Or if people are trying to get some bizarre ego boost by claiming what they did was so much better.

2nd was time consuming to play, and almost ruined entirely by virus grenades. And other complex and poorly thought out rules.

There was a considerable amount of time my ork army died over and over to a single virus grenade, without any reason for me to even bother setting up. Before they gave me a 50 point wargear item that canceled it. How was that strategy? I remember in 2nd having long detailed conversations with my gaming group about how 2nd was just a series of band aids for poorly thought out rules.

Bijorn still makes me shutter when I think back to what a disastrous system 2nd really was.

I often felt that 2nd was about Virus and Vortex grenade placement and very little else.

I'm sorry but complex != strategy. Fact of the matter is simple can be very strategic.

No offense but I think people who talk about how 2nd was a better game, and new 40k is for children are trying to be elitist.

Wraithian
19-07-2008, 18:05
I think a lot of it isn't necessarily from an "elitist" perspective as much as it is remembering all the different options to take, and the various choices to make. Throwing blight grenades to pretty much deny an area and "herd" enemy units through, or poper application of throwing frag grenades at your opponent... Yes, the system was flawed. But there were at least some options to your force. It was rare back in those days to have "cookie cutter" armies. Just my thoughts on it.

Faolain
19-07-2008, 18:14
Also ramming is back, but only tanks can ram stuff.



This is a very common misconception. Any non-walker vehicle can ram. Tanks merely get a bonus for it.

I loved second edition and rejoiced when true LOS returned for 5th. I love positioning my models in just the right spots. Yes it slows the game down a bit but 85% of the time it's very clear who can see whom. I enjoy determining which spots on the board are safer, and nailing down the best fire lanes. I miss overwatch and each model having it's own move characteristics (made troops more unique).

What I didn't miss about 2nd was over reliance on characters. That's what I don't like about Fantasy, it seems to me whoever can build the baddest character wins (when I used to play it, I understand they've been working on that).

40k has plenty of strategy, it's just different sort than Fantasy.

The_Outsider
19-07-2008, 20:26
This is a very common misconception. Any non-walker vehicle can ram. Tanks merely get a bonus for it.

I suggest you re-read ramming, it is a form of tank shock and only tanks can tank shock, the bonus for being a "tank" only matters for the hit and being hit back (so a tank hitting a non tank wouldn't suffer +1 to the S of the return strike).

Templar Ben
19-07-2008, 21:33
I've played 40k since first edition, and I always read these "2nd" was so great story's and I often wonder if its just remembering the good parts and forgetting the MASSIVE flaws. Or if people are trying to get some bizarre ego boost by claiming what they did was so much better.

2nd was time consuming to play, and almost ruined entirely by virus grenades. And other complex and poorly thought out rules.

There was a considerable amount of time my ork army died over and over to a single virus grenade, without any reason for me to even bother setting up. Before they gave me a 50 point wargear item that canceled it. How was that strategy? I remember in 2nd having long detailed conversations with my gaming group about how 2nd was just a series of band aids for poorly thought out rules.

Bijorn still makes me shutter when I think back to what a disastrous system 2nd really was.

I often felt that 2nd was about Virus and Vortex grenade placement and very little else.

I'm sorry but complex != strategy. Fact of the matter is simple can be very strategic.

No offense but I think people who talk about how 2nd was a better game, and new 40k is for children are trying to be elitist.

I never played 2nd back in the day. I have played it more recently and given my limited experience I may have not seen some of the power builds or exploits that you have seen. I love the rules like Overwatch that makes it more like modern combat. The fact that you need so few models is a bonus as it allows for more maneuvering on the table.

RazielZian
19-07-2008, 22:09
My personal feel of 5th ed so far is it has the core of 4th (and in parts 3rd, but thats been seriously tweaked), but it also has some of the novaltities from 2nd ed... Characters can still be avatars of death, but not nearly as much as in 2nd ed, tanks are better now than they have EVER been... (trust me i've been playing for a little too long now ;)).
The game can be very very tactical... if your a tactical person playing another tactical person... and from what you've said.. I wouldn't mind haveing a couple of games with your groop...Could be fun.

The mani thing to remember if that 40K is not now, nor has it ever been and never will it be a simulation of real life warfare.
GW aim it at younger kids to get them into the game so it has a very shallow learning curve, which can be both a blessing and a curse. But if your playing as adults with people who play as adults it can easily be as fun and stimulating as any of the other games you mentioned, and many many more besides.