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Lordi
18-07-2008, 18:04
Everyone knows GW favors Space Marines a lot with almost every unit available in plastic and more and more Marines are coming whilst other amies who can use an update can wait after a Marine chapter. The are almost in every 40K starter kit.

So how imported are Space Marines for GW?

Ozorik
18-07-2008, 18:08
Very.

Apparently they outsell the entire fantasy range combined.

Personally I hate how GW has become marinecentric as it tends to make 40k games even more similar and has lead to certain features of the rules having to much influence (AP 3 weapons especially)

Mozzamanx
18-07-2008, 18:12
They do have a ridiculous proportion of sales.

I think they make up something like 50% of all 40k purchases, or 30% of all Games Workshop purchases.

That would mean that 60% of the sales were 40k, and the remaining 40% is divided between Fantasy, LotR , Specialists and hobby, which sounds about right.

x-esiv-4c
18-07-2008, 18:16
Isn't there some kind of SM statue at GW HQ?

Lordi
18-07-2008, 18:35
:eek:Are they really THAT important?!

Charax
18-07-2008, 19:03
yes, they are - although it's basically a vicious circle:
- GW promote Space Marines
- Most new customers buy Space Marines (they're in the starter box, GW strategy tells people to offer tactical squads in starter bundles unless the customer specifically requests something else, as seen Here (http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7540/1213316197440zu8.jpg)]
- GW sees that the majority of sales are for Space Marines (Gee, wonder why)
- GW promotes Space Marines more

Think about the following:
- Every core box of 40K that has had models, has had Space Marines
- Every 40K intro game has Space Marines (and most of the time, it's skewed so they win)
- Most marketing for 40K has Space Marines

Is it any wonder that, if your introduction to 40K was a game where Space Marines (controlled by you) won, and the boxed set you got your parents to buy you has Space Marines, and the rulebook's full of depictions of Space Marines, and the staff offer you a starter bundle of Space Marines, that you're going to keep buying Space Marines?

It's self-perpetuating. We know GW's business strategy revolves (or revolved, until very recently) around a semi-constant influx of new players buying huge amounts on impulse then ditching the game later on - if those new gamers are bombarded with Space Marines from the moment they play an intro game, they're going to buy Space Marines, which in turn makes GW think "Gee, Space Marines are selling well, better make more Space Marine models, or a new Space Marine army, or branded Space Marine boxer shorts"

So yes, Space Marines are important - nay, integral - to GW

starlight
18-07-2008, 19:21
Sadly GW has made this so.:(

de Selby
18-07-2008, 19:24
I got into 40k in 1992ish when I saw some space marines in someone's WD magazine. It's not just that GW promotes them, they're intrinsically very attractive to new players. GW could stop putting them in WD, but this would probably result in lost sales more than it would result in kids buying Imperial Guard.

Griefbringer
18-07-2008, 19:35
Don't forget that the first 40K plastics out there where Space Marines.

They are also pretty simple to paint, so potentially quite beginner friendly.

OldMaster
18-07-2008, 19:45
Now I've decided aeons ago I woudn't buy a single Space Marine mini just BECAUSE GW promotes them that much >.>

Light of the Emperor
18-07-2008, 19:58
I'm kinda the same way. I LOVE marine background and the models are awesome. However, I will not play them. In my area they are horribly oversaturated and it drives me nuts that I haven't even played against new eldar, new orks, necrons, new tau, etc.

Still, GW owes a lot to the space marines so to completely stop promoting them or tone them down would be bad business practice. On the otherhand, they could definately promote the other races a bit more rather than just having them as sideshow attractions in marine batreps.

NallTWD
18-07-2008, 21:08
Personally I hate how GW has become marinecentric as it tends to make 40k games even more similar and has lead to certain features of the rules having to much influence (AP 3 weapons especially)


Saying marines have too much influence is like saying Batman shouldn't get so many movies.

Reasons:

1) Everyone wants to be a space marine.
2) Because of that, everyone wants them.

Deal XD

ashc
18-07-2008, 21:21
Actually, I would say that NallTWD makes a good point.

Also, from the viewpoint of 40k, I would say that Space Marines are one of the definite and few true 'icons' Games Workshop have that aren't different ripped-off versions of other people's stuff :D

I always find I go back to marines; they are just too darned cool.

Ash

starlight
18-07-2008, 21:47
Actually, I would say that NallTWD makes a good point.

Also, from the viewpoint of 40k, I would say that Space Marines are one of the definite and few true 'icons' Games Workshop have that aren't different ripped-off versions of other people's stuff :D

I always find I go back to marines; they are just too darned cool.

Ash


Seriously?:eyebrows:

theunwantedbeing
18-07-2008, 21:57
Now Im wondering what GW ripped space marines off.....

dancingmonkey
18-07-2008, 22:03
start from starship troopers (book) and work up through various others IIRC

ashc
18-07-2008, 22:08
Seriously?:eyebrows:

Yes, seriously. Ok super-soldiers have been done many a time but the way Games Workshop have done them is very much their own, and the whole 'look' of the space marine is very much ingrained into geek society.

I notice that often a lot of other scifi seems to go out of its way to avoid making things too gw space marine-like, which i think is a testament to the 'brand power' of *their* space marine.

Ash

the anti santa
18-07-2008, 22:21
Also Space Marines have been big from the very start of 40K

Back in the rouge trader days there were only really 3 "proper" armies, marines, Orks and Eldar. Now we have lots but marines are bigger than the rest combined sadly :(

I think this is what puts quite a few vets off 40K and tends to steer them to specialist games or WHFB or even LOTR

Templar Ben
18-07-2008, 22:41
I got into 40k in 1992ish when I saw some space marines in someone's WD magazine. It's not just that GW promotes them, they're intrinsically very attractive to new players. GW could stop putting them in WD, but this would probably result in lost sales more than it would result in kids buying Imperial Guard.

Exactly. There is an appeal to super humans. If GW didn't have a statue out front would people say, "Wow Elves in Space is just as cool"? I don't think many would.


Now I've decided aeons ago I woudn't buy a single Space Marine mini just BECASUE GW promotes them that much >.>

You are such a nonconformist. (http://www.marcofolio.net/images/stories/fun/imagedump/demotivational_posters/moms_minivan.jpg)


Yes, seriously. Ok super-soldiers have been done many a time but the way Games Workshop have done them is very much their own, and the whole 'look' of the space marine is very much ingrained into geek society.

I notice that often a lot of other scifi seems to go out of its way to avoid making things too gw space marine-like, which i think is a testament to the 'brand power' of *their* space marine.

Ash

Again please read Starship Troopers (jump pack marines with grenades and missile launchers). The "look" of Space Marines are not in any way unique. Others may avoid it for two reasons, one is possible litigation from GW, two is a desire to make a unique setting and not just ripping off Sci Fi movies.

stonehorse
18-07-2008, 22:44
1) Everyone wants to be a space marine.

Do they?

I know I don't.

When I worked for GW back in 2001 they made something like 70% of all of GW's sales. In the 7 years since then I can't imagine that Marines have stopped being popular.

kairous
18-07-2008, 22:51
apparantly one of the guys who works for GW, (phil kelly maybe, can't really remember), owns the rights to like all the armour marks, bar 2 i think, anyway, if he left GW would be in big trouble, it would be the end of SM's, then we would see the profits drop.

Temprus
18-07-2008, 22:56
Space Marines have become as important to GW as breathing should be to you. ;)

Bookwrak
19-07-2008, 02:33
apparantly one of the guys who works for GW, (phil kelly maybe, can't really remember), owns the rights to like all the armour marks, bar 2 i think, anyway, if he left GW would be in big trouble, it would be the end of SM's, then we would see the profits drop.

That's laughably silly.

Anyway, if there wasn't something about SM that didn't appeal to most people on some level, then it wouldn't matter how hard GW pushes them, they wouldn't sell this well. In terms of sci-fi warriors, Space Marines are about as iconic as you can get, and that seems to resonate with a lot of people. If I were to suddenly wake up in Bizzarro-world were GW's focus was on Dark Eldar, I still wouldn't buy them because they just don't interest me as an army, and even with the same level of support, I seriously doubt DE GW would see them selling in numbers anything like that of Marines.

yabbadabba
19-07-2008, 10:22
I'm kinda the same way. I LOVE marine background and the models are awesome. However, I will not play them. In my area they are horribly oversaturated and it drives me nuts that I haven't even played against new eldar, new orks, necrons, new tau, etc.

While I empathise with you, it's a shame that many of those hordes of marine players don't play them too well. Not only does their saturation give them a bad rep, but quite often the people using them aren't up to much because they are new to the game.

It's also quite interesting that what started out for many of us was a non-conformist hobby or social activity has at it's financial core a conformist product - Marines. Not only are they the most popular army financially, but even their background is - conformist. Just think all those metalhead teenagers over the years duped into treading the line :D

LuciusAR
19-07-2008, 11:16
Ok the concept of "Space Marines" may not be unique to GW, however GW manifestation of Space Marines is very origional.

The concept of tuning them in holy orders, the story of HH the almost celestial nature of their Primarchs, heck even the concept of Primarchs are totally unique to GW marines.

Comparing the starship trooper MI to GW marines is like comparing a Model T ford to a Ferrari.

As for the original question space marines are an iconic image for GW, they are the one race that many non GW players recognize. It the only army that offers something to total beginners and veteran players alike.

The simple fact of the matter is that GW would be a poorer place without Space Marines and no amount of non conformist sulking will change this fact. If you don't like Marines feel free to play another army, but don't go throwing your toys out the pram because people are choosing to play Marines.

ArchonButtercup
19-07-2008, 12:22
what i would like to see is a bunch more background for all of the other races like tyranids, eldar and stuff like that. maybe bringing them up to have as much background as the space marines.

Templar Ben
19-07-2008, 13:08
Ok the concept of "Space Marines" may not be unique to GW, however GW manifestation of Space Marines is very origional.

The concept of tuning them in holy orders, the story of HH the almost celestial nature of their Primarchs, heck even the concept of Primarchs are totally unique to GW marines.

Comparing the starship trooper MI to GW marines is like comparing a Model T ford to a Ferrari.

As for the original question space marines are an iconic image for GW, they are the one race that many non GW players recognize. It the only army that offers something to total beginners and veteran players alike.

The simple fact of the matter is that GW would be a poorer place without Space Marines and no amount of non conformist sulking will change this fact. If you don't like Marines feel free to play another army, but don't go throwing your toys out the pram because people are choosing to play Marines.

I would say more like comparing a 707 to home built ultralight. If you want to say a direct port of Fantasy (in Space!!!) is unique then why should I dissuade you. They are not the first to have a quasi feudal system (BattleTech is older). There were no doubt others before them that had crusading knights (in Space!!!) as I do recall reading some novels like that back in the early 80's.

The religiosity existed in Laserburn and Imperial Commander. If you want Christian Fundamentalism in the future you could look at another Heinlein book "Stranger in a Strange Land". That is from the 60's. It is actually very common in Sci Fi to have religious groups with all of the trappings a central part of the story.

I am not bashing GW. Tolkein didn't invent elves either. I am just saying it is rather silly to say it is so original. After all, The Lion King is just Hamlet with animals.

Andyalloverdaplace
19-07-2008, 13:22
On contemplation, Space Marines and various variants in literature (Starship Troopers weren't original either) are an outgrowth of the idea of a knight in shining armour idea. They have the makings of a hero figure, and are, for good or bad, the icon of 40k. Of course, they have the stat line and point cost that befits a hero.

I don't think that Marines are as necessary to GW as they once were, since it is less expensive to collect various other forces (although Marines are still the cheapest I suspect). Given how things are now, there's no real reason to stop hyping the marines and various variant lists. I suspect that final game of 40k to be played will be a SM force facing off against someone who's stocked up on his AP3 weapons and power swords.

Templar Ben
19-07-2008, 13:45
Andy, I agree.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

Fobster
19-07-2008, 14:44
I only got into 40k on the strength of the space marine imagery. That was in '95 and I still like the look of them. 40k without marines would be like star wars without jedi. They are the hook that lifts the mythos above most other generic fluff. Take marines out of 40k and i'd probably play warmachine, warjacks are excellent and an engaging concept and image. The space elves that I play are a little bland.

Griefbringer
19-07-2008, 15:27
apparantly one of the guys who works for GW, (phil kelly maybe, can't really remember), owns the rights to like all the armour marks, bar 2 i think,

Would Phil Kelly even have been around when the most of armour marks were first introduced (around WD129)? And I would presume that GW by now would have made sure that they would have bought those rights.



The religiosity existed in Laserburn and Imperial Commander.

However, aren't those games more or less predecessors of WH40K when it comes to many of the concepts, being from the same makers and in a similar setting.

Promethius
19-07-2008, 20:48
As somebody who has been in the hobby for 13 odd years, I have to say that space marines were one of the biggest appeals for me. The imagery, the concept, the articles about the creation of a space marine, they are all just very, very cool. Space marines sell well because they are awesome. GW promote them because they are responding to demand. As a guard player (and fanatic) I would love to see other factions given the same amount of attention (in terms of plastic kits and such) but despite that, there is still a part of me that goes 'ooohhhh' when a new space marine kit comes out that wouldn't be anything like as interested if say the necrons or tau got some attention.

Templar Ben
19-07-2008, 21:19
However, aren't those games more or less predecessors of WH40K when it comes to many of the concepts, being from the same makers and in a similar setting.

They were also under a different company. I was simply pointing out that it has been done before in the exact same tones of decaying Empire using religion to keep itself together. I can pull other examples in literature if need be.

"Simpsons already did it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5CePd-kjGI&NR=1)" covered how people borrow ideas. Few are able to convince people that it is new.

IJW
19-07-2008, 22:44
Would Phil Kelly even have been around when the most of armour marks were first introduced (around WD129)?
Precisely. If anyone, it would be Jes Goodwin, who basically designed Space Marines as we know know them, plus the marks in WD???...

blongbling
20-07-2008, 09:02
Would Phil Kelly even have been around when the most of armour marks were first introduced (around WD129)? And I would presume that GW by now would have made sure that they would have bought those rights.



However, aren't those games more or less predecessors of WH40K when it comes to many of the concepts, being from the same makers and in a similar setting.

if you work for GW anything made whilst you work there is the intellectual property of GW...you dont own it, your ideas are owned by teh company....this is pretty standard stuff for most compaines that involve making products

Griefbringer
20-07-2008, 11:24
if you work for GW anything made whilst you work there is the intellectual property of GW...you dont own it, your ideas are owned by teh company....this is pretty standard stuff for most compaines that involve making products

Nowadays, surely true for copyrights in GW studio - and for most other jobs having anything to do with creative design.

For GW in the 80's, might be more complex (younger company, different environment, more usage of free-lancers), though I presume they would have settled things after the Kaelb Daark/Malal affair to ensure that any contracts would clearly state whom the copyrights belong to.

So while I doubt the original statement that somebody else than GW could hold the rights, I would not hold it totally impossible that some of the copyrights might have have originally belonged to individual employees (eg. ones that had designed concepts already before getting employed). However, I would expect GW to have either bought such rights now (or to have obtained very long-term lisences for them) or to have dropped the concepts from their product line.

[Purely theoretical] In any case, whether the copyrights holder works for company or not is rather immaterial, since that does not yet grant any permission to the usage of those copyrights - you would need a lisence to use it anyway. Thus, such a theoretical copyright holder leaving company would not have any effect as long as the lisence endures. And the lisence holder would be a fool to terminate the contract, since he could not effectively cash on the designs anywhere else (no trademarks, no rights to imperial eagle or weapon designs).

Anyway, the only design that really matters anyway is the MK 7 power armour and terminator armour - other power armours have been largely marginalised since the days of Rogue Trader (when MK 6 power armour was default until MK 7 was introduced), and losing rights to them would not even rock the GW ship (unless they have secret plans to launch a massive Horus Heresy range).

And for the original WD129 article on variant power armour versions Mk 1-7, that was penned by Rick Priestley with artwork by John Blanche. Accompanying models seem to be attributed to "Jes Goodwin with the Citadel Design Team":

http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2007smarmourvariants-h.htm

OT: since Laserburn was mentioned, anyone remember the Confrontation rules in WD 137-138 or so? Those looked at least a little bit inspired by the Laserburn rules.

TimLeeson
20-07-2008, 12:38
heh, even me, the huge lesser-xeno fan has a dark-angels army :) but then I seem to like -all- the races really.

Oh yeah, as a side-note, I dont think ANY of the mainstream 40k races are really "original"...but I do think they are "innovative", in that they give the older ideas their own "look" or mix things together in a different way.

Jedi152
21-07-2008, 09:09
Marines are stupidly important to GW. They are the iconic image of 40k. Without them the game wouldn't be massive. The company wouldn't be massive.

It helps that they are 8ft tall supermen, with handheld rocket launchers that slaughter everything in sight - which appeals to pretty much all of GW's main audience, teenage boys.

Richter Kless
21-07-2008, 16:08
Marines are stupidly important to GW. They are the iconic image of 40k. Without them the game wouldn't be massive. The company wouldn't be massive.

It helps that they are 8ft tall supermen, with handheld rocket launchers that slaughter everything in sight - which appeals to pretty much all of GW's main audience, teenage boys.

I'm pretty sure that's the dream of any neckbeard, no matter of what age. That and being a foxy, scantly clad, Elf huntress.

RobC
21-07-2008, 16:43
I'm pretty sure that's the dream of any neckbeard, no matter of what age. That and being a foxy, scantly clad, Elf huntress.Weird, that. Back when I was actually in GW's target market demographic (late 80s/early 90s), I much preferred the dark, hard edge of Rogue Trader. Space Marines making famous last stands? Getting absolutely slaughtered? Far more entertaining. But then I always did like my sci-fi grubby.

Emperor's Grace
22-07-2008, 18:36
branded Space Marine boxer shorts

I'll take some, if they'll all cotton....


The religiosity existed in Laserburn and Imperial Commander. If you want Christian Fundamentalism in the future you could look at another Heinlein book "Stranger in a Strange Land". That is from the 60's. It is actually very common in Sci Fi to have religious groups with all of the trappings a central part of the story.


I was simply pointing out that it has been done before in the exact same tones of decaying Empire using religion to keep itself together. I can pull other examples in literature if need be.

What, no DUNE references? :D The background forum has that pop up all the time....


There were no doubt others before them that had crusading knights (in Space!!!) as I do recall reading some novels like that back in the early 80's.

This kind of reminds me of the art for "Oscar North" (Nort and Scar from Gamma World 3rd ed (1985)). Guy in power armor riding a vicious mutant badger.

Also, Star Wars (1978) - The Jedi count as Warrior Monks (In Space!!!) even if they do lack power armor.

Templar Ben
22-07-2008, 19:23
As I said, it has been done before.

Richter Kless
22-07-2008, 19:48
As I said, it has been done before.

I don't know what you are trying to say with this, so forgive me if I misunderstood your post, but that argument is getting really old.

Humanity has thousands of years of history and culture, with thousands of tales told, pictures drawn and other creative stuff created.

No matter what your mind conjures, somewhere someone will have done it and your idea is no longer 'original'.

Seriously, I dare everyone on this board to come with something that hasn't been done atleast once and that isn't totally redicilous. So no flying bunny rats with LAZ0R!!1! nipples. (and even that has probably already been done)

baphomael
22-07-2008, 22:26
Exactly. There is an appeal to super humans. If GW didn't have a statue out front would people say, "Wow Elves in Space is just as cool"? I don't think many would.



You are such a nonconformist. (http://www.marcofolio.net/images/stories/fun/imagedump/demotivational_posters/moms_minivan.jpg)



Again please read Starship Troopers (jump pack marines with grenades and missile launchers). The "look" of Space Marines are not in any way unique. Others may avoid it for two reasons, one is possible litigation from GW, two is a desire to make a unique setting and not just ripping off Sci Fi movies.


But, Space Marines are specifically Space Marines - they have their own look. Imagine Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar as characters in Starship Troopers. Doesnt work, does it? Why not? Because the Adeptus Astartes have developed their own imagery that makes them a bit more than 'big men in big armour'.

Yes, big men in big armour isnt really that unique, and plenty of sci-fi mythos have them. But none have big men in big armour with skull-faced helmets, roman tabards, prayer parchments and chainsaw-swords, screaming prayers to a god-emperor. Space Marines are more than just big men in big armour - they are vikings, vampires, romans, knights in shining armour, warrior-monks, mongol horsemen etc etc etc in space. *That* is why space marines have such an enduring and recognizable style.

baphomael
22-07-2008, 22:30
apparantly one of the guys who works for GW, (phil kelly maybe, can't really remember), owns the rights to like all the armour marks, bar 2 i think, anyway, if he left GW would be in big trouble, it would be the end of SM's, then we would see the profits drop.

I doubt it. GW wouldnt let such a vital piece of IP fall into the ownership of an individual person.

yabbadabba
22-07-2008, 22:55
Of course Space Marines have been done before in a variety of guises, and they will be done again, some based on GW's perceptions of them. GW have just done a very good job of cementing their version of them.

Templar Ben
22-07-2008, 23:23
I don't know what you are trying to say with this, so forgive me if I misunderstood your post, but that argument is getting really old.

Humanity has thousands of years of history and culture, with thousands of tales told, pictures drawn and other creative stuff created.

No matter what your mind conjures, somewhere someone will have done it and your idea is no longer 'original'.

Seriously, I dare everyone on this board to come with something that hasn't been done atleast once and that isn't totally redicilous. So no flying bunny rats with LAZ0R!!1! nipples. (and even that has probably already been done)

It may be getting old to you but it is still just as true. Contrary to the claims of others it isn't novel on its face.


But, Space Marines are specifically Space Marines - they have their own look. Imagine Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar as characters in Starship Troopers. Doesnt work, does it? Why not? Because the Adeptus Astartes have developed their own imagery that makes them a bit more than 'big men in big armour'.

Yes, big men in big armour isnt really that unique, and plenty of sci-fi mythos have them. But none have big men in big armour with skull-faced helmets, roman tabards, prayer parchments and chainsaw-swords, screaming prayers to a god-emperor. Space Marines are more than just big men in big armour - they are vikings, vampires, romans, knights in shining armour, warrior-monks, mongol horsemen etc etc etc in space. *That* is why space marines have such an enduring and recognizable style.

If you are saying since they combined so many unrelated historical images in a hodge podge Fantasy (in SPACE!!!) is unique then okay sure. I mean we will have to forget BattleTech but sure why not.


Of course Space Marines have been done before in a variety of guises, and they will be done again, some based on GW's perceptions of them. GW have just done a very good job of cementing their version of them.

Or if nothing else convincing the gamers that they are unique. ;) See the responses above.

Batwings
23-07-2008, 01:49
'apparantly one of the guys who works for GW, (phil kelly maybe, can't really remember), owns the rights to like all the armour marks, bar 2 i think, anyway, if he left GW would be in big trouble, it would be the end of SM's, then we would see the profits drop."

Not even slightly true. Every piece of artwork (concept or illustration) and every sculpture created for Games Workshop belongs exclusively to GW. All artists sign contracts surrendering copyright of the work.
That's standard practise for most commercially produced art-for-hire.

ankara halla
23-07-2008, 06:02
For the past few decades or so, yes, but in the very beginning some of the art/sculpts were owend by the people who made them, or at least had rights to them.

blongbling
23-07-2008, 08:46
For the past few decades or so, yes, but in the very beginning some of the art/sculpts were owend by the people who made them, or at least had rights to them.

not that im aware of.......and even if they did, by now the ownership would have moved to GW i am sure

Amon 'Chakai
23-07-2008, 14:54
For those who haven't seen the SM statue.

ankara halla
23-07-2008, 15:10
not that im aware of.......and even if they did, by now the ownership would have moved to GW i am sure

AFAIK it was mostly sculpts (a few pieces of literature, maybe a drawing or two...) and even then not that many of them. All of them got removed from their catalogue a long, long time ago and never made it even to the online store IRC.

But yeah, an exception to the rule if ever there was one.

Jedi152
23-07-2008, 15:11
For those who haven't seen the SM statue.

I saw Simon (Grant) last time he was working reception, and he said it was bugging him having to stare at it all day. His major gripe? That's it's a 2nd ed. Marine with the old style backpack!

:D

Templar Ben
23-07-2008, 15:42
They have one in Memphis too. How many are around?

Demrush
23-07-2008, 15:49
The whole Phil Kelly owns almost all the SM armor concepts made me laugh. You really think GW would let a developer or game designer simply keep all of his/her intellectual property while working for GW? As was said before, all artists, developers/designers sign contracts which give all author rights and property to the company they are working for…this is true for any company, whether you’re designing a concept car or a miniature SM.

That said, EVEN if Phil Kelly (supposing it’s him who has the rights) didn’t sign such an agreement and all his property was still his…do you think he would be able to profit from all his work and start licensing it to other companies if he left gamesworkshop? EVERYTHING you do at GW belongs to GW. Take the Bratz vs Barbie case that was in the news recently. A former worker for Mattel (Barbie) went off to work for another company (I’m not sure if he was fired or not but that is irrelevant), that company is now the makers of Bratz. Now Mattel who was losing a lot of ground to Bratz began a lawsuit against their former employee and his new employer stating that he had begun working his sketches and concepts for Bratz dolls at Mattel’s offices and that he had used their property for his creations. Because of this, Mattel argued that they were entitled to a large portion of the profits made by MGA entertainment on the Bratz dolls. Guess what…Mattel won the case. Now imagine if Phil Kelly would simply say: “you either pay me or I quit the job so that you can’t use my intellectual property any more”. I would just imagine the big bosses at GW falling to the floor laughing to death LOL, ROFL…etc. Sorry but I just had to point out how flawed that statement was, especially since the concepts are already in production and for GW not to have property over them is just laughable.

Now to get back on topic…Space Marines…Ahhh how I love it when people compare them to Starship troopers. I’m really sorry but I don’t see how the Imagery of Starship compares to 40k…suuuure they have power-armored soldiers too and fight bugs called arachnids but SST is a way more americanistic future sci-fi than GW’s 40k sci-fi. If you want to compare it…compare it to Halo or something.

However, I don’t dismiss the fact that many elements of 40k can be found from all kinds of sci-fi novels but to me that’s a great thing. They have sought to include all the great elements of the 20th century sci-fi into a really cool concept called 40k. To me 40k is something very unique compared to all other modern sci-fi. I like modern sci-fi but many of them are generic stuff or just plain weird and wacko beyond my liking. In 40k, GW has found the balance between what’s mainstream and what is considered “oldschool”. It has successfully incorporated immortal concepts such as superhumans in shinning armor and added their own twist to it. It may not be 100% original but the powerful imagery that 40k conveys is certainly one of a kind and unique in its own right.

Gosh…I didn’t even get back to the topic did I? Well, I’ll answer your question…yes SM are the most important of all of GW’s products. Take the ratio of young kids who start out with SM armies and compare them to all other armies in any category and you will see why SM are so important!

P.S. No one actually knows this but I’ll let you in on a little secret, after the unfolding of the Horus heresy, all space marines still faithful to the emperor had their reproductive organs replaced by cow mammary glands. Why you ask? So GW could milk them to death!!!

Jedi152
23-07-2008, 16:20
Not to mention the fact that:

a) Phil Kelly was probably about 10 (if that) when Space Marines were designed and;
b) Isn't even a designer. He's only written rules AFAIK, and unless he's worked on 5th, he's never even done space marine rules.

It's odd how people think he's the main man. In terms of GW big bods he's very young and recent.

ankara halla
23-07-2008, 16:29
The whole Phil Kelly owns almost all the SM armor concepts made me laugh. You really think GW would let a developer or game designer simply keep all of his/her intellectual property while working for GW? As was said before, all artists, developers/designers sign contracts which give all author rights and property to the company they are working for…this is true for any company, whether you’re designing a concept car or a miniature SM.

Most of the time it doesn't even matter if you signed a contract or not, it's in the law regardless. But in the rest of the cases the following comes into play...


That said, EVEN if Phil Kelly (supposing it’s him who has the rights) didn’t sign such an agreement and all his property was still his…do you think he would be able to profit from all his work and start licensing it to other companies if he left gamesworkshop? EVERYTHING you do at GW belongs to GW. Take the Bratz vs Barbie case that was in the news recently. A former worker for Mattel (Barbie) went off to work for another company (I’m not sure if he was fired or not but that is irrelevant), that company is now the makers of Bratz. Now Mattel who was losing a lot of ground to Bratz began a lawsuit against their former employee and his new employer stating that he had begun working his sketches and concepts for Bratz dolls at Mattel’s offices and that he had used their property for his creations. Because of this, Mattel argued that they were entitled to a large portion of the profits made by MGA entertainment on the Bratz dolls. Guess what…Mattel won the case. Now imagine if Phil Kelly would simply say: “you either pay me or I quit the job so that you can’t use my intellectual property any more”. I would just imagine the big bosses at GW falling to the floor laughing to death LOL, ROFL…etc. Sorry but I just had to point out how flawed that statement was, especially since the concepts are already in production and for GW not to have property over them is just laughable.

There was a time when GW used freelancers/outside contractors. What kinds of contracts these guys had, I don't know, but for sure there came a time when GW pulled all the stuff they used to sell/use (sculpts, literature, etc...) that wasn't made *by them* for them.

t-tauri
23-07-2008, 16:47
The only case of this I'm aware of is the contract for the Kaleb Daark comic strip in the old Citadel Journal. The contract didn't lay out clearly who owned what as the artists/writers were comics professionals rather than studio employees. Hence the disappearance of Kaleb and Malal except in the most peripheral of references. See SoL (http://www.solegends.com/citc/c13cjheroes.htm).

After this GW made very sure they owned all the copyrights hence all the submissions guidelines stressing that by the very act of submitting it the copyright was assigned to GW.

Demrush
23-07-2008, 17:08
Yea...free lancers are probably an exception (or used to be) but generally speaking, if your part of the design team working for any company and your coming up with concepts and ideas that will be used to flesh out the product the company wants to sell then the company itself always makes sure that such intellectual property belongs to them.

Anyways, the point was made…lets not tread on the path of threadomancy!

colmarekblack
24-07-2008, 11:10
Sadly Spacemarines are important for GW, this only because the original plastics were Spacemarines and almost every bit of fluff revolves around spacemarines or spacemarines intervening in Imperial Guard campaigns.

They are pushed everywhere GW. Which makes people buy them.

Precisely the reason I sold everyone of my Black Templars and stuck solely with my Guard.

If GW decided not to include SM's in the next starter box then it would hurt them financially. Which is a shame since it prevents GW giving other races a chance to shine.

A solution to this is to make several starter boxes, one with SM vs xeno, Guard vs xeno and a xeno on xeno box. But knowing GW this is never likely to happen. :(

yabbadabba
24-07-2008, 13:36
Sadly Spacemarines are important for GW, this only because the original plastics were Spacemarines and almost every bit of fluff revolves around spacemarines or spacemarines intervening in Imperial Guard campaigns.

They are pushed everywhere GW. Which makes people buy them.

Precisely the reason I sold everyone of my Black Templars and stuck solely with my Guard.

I am not sure how you justify your reason for this. You sold your marines becuase everybody else has them? Or that you are critical of GW's marketing approach? Surely you collect and play an army because you like that army? That would be like supporting one team because too many support another - even though you like that team as well or more.


If GW decided not to include SM's in the next starter box then it would hurt them financially. Which is a shame since it prevents GW giving other races a chance to shine.

A solution to this is to make several starter boxes, one with SM vs xeno, Guard vs xeno and a xeno on xeno box. But knowing GW this is never likely to happen. :(

While I think that this might appeal to those of us who are already in the hobby, why should it make a difference to a person who is just starting? You yourself have moved from marines to guard - can't others make that journey? I don't think it matters what is in that starter kit as long as it does it's job of enthralling and capturing that newbie. As it is you can't go wrong with a xenos and a human supersoldier.

As for those huge numbers of marine players - who are they? Are they any good? If you spank them with your guard, won't that encourage them to either get better and/or try a different army and provide you with a different challenge? Space Marines aren't the best army, although I think they are a very good alround army - so GW only shows favouritism to generate cash; which could allow them to develop the other armies.

As a side note, on the tournament circuit, marines don't shine as much as other races.

colmarekblack
24-07-2008, 19:02
I am not sure how you justify your reason for this. You sold your marines becuase everybody else has them? Or that you are critical of GW's marketing approach? Surely you collect and play an army because you like that army? That would be like supporting one team because too many support another - even though you like that team as well or more.

Sorry I meant that I sold them because they were the dominant army where I played and I got bored of using such a direct army. Don't get me wrong I like Space Marines but find them boring to play.


While I think that this might appeal to those of us who are already in the hobby, why should it make a difference to a person who is just starting? You yourself have moved from marines to guard - can't others make that journey? I don't think it matters what is in that starter kit as long as it does it's job of enthralling and capturing that newbie. As it is you can't go wrong with a xenos and a human supersoldier.

Actually I started with Guard then moved onto Marines then back to Guard. You make a good point about the starter box, but my point was why not offer an alternative for those who want alien vs alien? It doesn't have to be a box set but an alternative offer.


As for those huge numbers of marine players - who are they? Are they any good? If you spank them with your guard, won't that encourage them to either get better and/or try a different army and provide you with a different challenge? Space Marines aren't the best army, although I think they are a very good alround army - so GW only shows favouritism to generate cash; which could allow them to develop the other armies.

Again a good point but I struggled against Marine armies but that was only because I had a balanced Guard army. Me being quite young at the time, didn't have enough £ to get anti-MEQ stuff. That problem's gone now but the fact remains I didnt have a great success record against Marines with Guard.

I understand about the favouritism, it doesn't stop people complaining about it though despite how it helps their army.

Etienne de Beaugard
24-07-2008, 23:58
To the OP, Space Marines are that important to GW, and yes, GW is in part reponsible for making it so.

What I have always found curious is that WHFB never developed a single, iconic army. Rather, there is a pool of first tier armies (Empire, High Elves, O&G, Chaos and perhaps a few others) with a larger pool of supported but ultimately second tier armies. I believe this is in part due to support of consistent support of alternative lists in 40k.

Consider, while almost every army in WHFB has alternate lists, most of those lists don't remain tourney legal for more than half of an editions run. By comparison, Space Marines have, at this point, four variant armies that we can expect to remain supported and legal (BA, DA, BT, and SW).

Most players who plan to stick with a GW game for a few years branch out into a second army. In WHFB, doing so neccessiates buying new models. For a 40k marine player, you can branch out through repainting and a few arm switches. Hence, marines abound.

stonehorse
25-07-2008, 00:46
To put it bluntly, GW would be dead in the water if it wasn't for Space Marines. Imagine if any company lost 70%+/- of their profits in a short time... they would follow the Dodo.

Captain Cortez
25-07-2008, 06:41
When I first got into GW games even back in 97' Space Marines where huge.

Guard was my first army but the history and fluff of the Space Marines did catch my interest. Reason why I don't play Space Marines is that they're just so cookie cutter to me. Like a Honda Accord:p. Not that I don't like them but it does get boring seeing only Ultra, DA, SW.

I show allot of respect to unique Marines armys like Lamenters,Black Dragons, Salamanders, Red Scorpoins, Mantis Warriors, Imperial Fist, Marines Malevolent est.

Just another Warseer with his oppinion:cool: