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EmperorNorton
19-07-2008, 13:57
Now that a lot of people have the new Armybook in hands I'd like to discuss how Dark Elves are going to deal with their hated cousins.
My record against High Elves (using various armies) is fairly horrible and although the Dark Elves got a serious boost with their new book I think they'll still have a hard time against their sworn enemy.

Repeater crossbows are good against High Elves, of course.
The Black Guard is fantastic, but Swordmasters will still shred them to pieces and Dragon Princes eat Cold One Knights for breakfast.

Assassins could make quite a difference (am I right in assuming he'll strike first due to his higher Initiative?), but will it be enough?

Your Mum Rang
19-07-2008, 14:16
Shooting and ASF Black Guard will do a number on the High Elves. We still have to be VERY careful about charging.

sulla
20-07-2008, 01:15
Now that a lot of people have the new Armybook in hands I'd like to discuss how Dark Elves are going to deal with their hated cousins.
My record against High Elves (using various armies) is fairly horrible and although the Dark Elves got a serious boost with their new book I think they'll still have a hard time against their sworn enemy.

Repeater crossbows are good against High Elves, of course.
The Black Guard is fantastic, but Swordmasters will still shred them to pieces and Dragon Princes eat Cold One Knights for breakfast.

Assassins could make quite a difference (am I right in assuming he'll strike first due to his higher Initiative?), but will it be enough?

My 6th ed DE never had any problems with HE. 7th ed will really rip them a new one.

Most of the list works well against them now.

Here's a few things you might like; Assassins with extra hand weapons and rune of khaine in a unit or corsairs with hand bows. Aim for the the most elite infantry you can see. Shoot, then stand and shoot, then unleash the assassin for the win. Then, thanks to the corsairs ability, you should run them down. And you can fit 3 or 4 of those units in your army if you want.

The same can also be done with the new shades and an assassin and their ap crossbows are even more harmful to HE armour.

The new bladewind and hydra's teeth can target champs and characters with one attack each so they are excellent ways of ridding you of pesky mages and magic item toting champions.

The ring of hotek will depower even the strongest HE magic phase.

Chariots are even better now vs infantry and cold one knights can ride the wave of ASF attacks from HE core or cav and break them most times.

Hydra can destroy whole elven infantry regiments with their breath weapons and shadowblade could easily kill teclis in a turn.

Dragons are still tough but a tooled up lord with the reverse ward save and regen or the black amulet should be able to tie them up annd let static combat res win the day, or an assassin with rune of khaine and manbane to take the last wounds off an already weakened by bolt throwers dragon.

And once you start to rid yourself of the HE's defensive mages, your magic should reap a huge toll.

ASF black guard or witches can destroy any infantry unit the HE can throw at you.

Basically, you have a huge range of choices to fight your foolish cousins. Good luck, although I don't know that you will really need it.

Marwynn
20-07-2008, 03:49
Actually I think the DE and HE matchup right now will be fairly nice. Lots and lots of options on both sides.

The Black Guard, according to the new ASF rules (assuming they take the Banner of Hag Graef), will go first due against Sword Masters and White Lions to their I6. So they'll get plenty of chances to do them in. However both SMs and BGs will be the primary targets of their opponent's shooting.

The Assassins scare the HE though. Man those guys are just the life of the party.

Should be a fun match-up for all involved.

EmperorNorton
22-07-2008, 13:37
My 6th ed DE never had any problems with HE. 7th ed will really rip them a new one.

I didn't even try my Dark Elves against the new High Elves as I didn't see the point to do that before the new book was released.
Hopefully I'll get to see how they do now next week.

Limenix
23-07-2008, 11:11
Have forever hated HE.
Huge problems defeating them in 6th Ed.

Now i believe that if there is no Star Dragon on the table , odds are 50-50.
If there be dragons (HE) 70-30 in Asur favor.
We simply can't effectively deal with the 7W monstrosity.
Please don't let me hear anybody mention venom sword or i'll scream.
Artillery is meant to keep monsters like a BT or a "normal' dragon , hidden until the coast is clear.
Packing 7 wounds and basicaly a 5+ ward save from the rider , a HE dragon
can be placed front and center on the battlefield , take position in round 2 and the ripp the heart out of your army.
Not much fun there.
I was really hopping for a special anti HE dragon item or ability in the new book.
Well , we can't have it all can we?

Vatkulimestari
23-07-2008, 11:27
I was really hopping for a special anti HE dragon item or ability in the new book.
Well , we can't have it all can we?

Dreadlord on a black dragon and some RBTs?

Lance, Potion of Strength, Pendant of Khaeleth and Armour of Darkness.

So 5 Ws6 S6 attacks and 4 Ws7 S9 attacks on the charge with eternal hatred, dreadlord has +1 armour save and 2+ ward save against S5 or higher.

Czechsensation
23-07-2008, 11:49
The DE are more mobile than the HE and harder hitting. HE might hit first, but we hit harder.

Dark Riders with AP Crossbows will be running around doing a number on infantry regiments, and the ASF Black Guard block will be striking first against everything but Phoenix Guard and Dragon Princes. Shades will be a pain in the ass for HE as well. The Hydra will be able to break units on it's own, and it's breath attack is going to be deadly for elite infantry. An Assassin can really ruin his day.

Units that are going to be hard to deal with:
1. Phoenix Guard. These guys don't hit very hard, but they are going to be really hard to kill for the DE army due to that 4+ Ward. Best bet is to get them to run away somehow, either through mass CR or if you're lucky Panic (even though they re-roll).

2. Great Eagles. Not so hard to kill, but don't let them run rampant or you'll find that eagle charging your rear and forcing you to pursue backwards. Take these out as soon as possible because they are the most mobile element of the HE army and you need to win the movement phase to beat HE.

3. Dragon Princes. Let's face it, some of the best Cav in the game. Deal with the in the usual manner, Bolt Throwers, Heroes, CR... you name it. THey are only really deadly on the charge, so try to pin them with something like Harpies or Shades, and then charge them so at least they are striking at S3 and not S5.

4. Star Dragon. No advice here except fight fire with fire. Our DragonLord is tougher than his, otherwise this is one of the hardest units in the game period. I don't have any one solution for the Star Dragon.

Limenix
23-07-2008, 12:25
Dreadlord on a black dragon and some RBTs?

Lance, Potion of Strength, Pendant of Khaeleth and Armour of Darkness.

So 5 Ws6 S6 attacks and 4 Ws7 S9 attacks on the charge with eternal hatred, dreadlord has +1 armour save and 2+ ward save against S5 or higher.

I agree it is our best option provided the Dreadlord gets to charge 1st.
The HE +1 item who starts 1st roll messes things up though.
I seldom start 1st when facing HE.
So the Star dragon has the upper hand and will direct all hits Vs our dragon
most likely killing it.
The Dreadlord is now stranded , outnumbered and auto breaks from fear causing enemy.
I have seen this happen many times.

Str10_hurts
23-07-2008, 12:48
Talking about the invincible HE lord on star dragon couldent you take an hero choice with inverse wardsave +1 normal save (do the points allow that?) or on a cold one, with a war banner. let it hang back and countercarge or let you be charged by the dragon?

You will win combat that way...cheap and effective, good for support charges and holding you battle standard alive.

(Then again it might be stupid due to the fact that I play 40K :P )

Czechsensation
23-07-2008, 12:54
I agree it is our best option provided the Dreadlord gets to charge 1st.
The HE +1 item who starts 1st roll messes things up though.
I seldom start 1st when facing HE.
So the Star dragon has the upper hand and will direct all hits Vs our dragon
most likely killing it.
The Dreadlord is now stranded , outnumbered and auto breaks from fear causing enemy.
I have seen this happen many times.

The Star Dragon should never get a first turn charge, as it can only charge 20" and armies usually start 24" apart. The Skeinsliver is nice but usually I have more units to deploy than the HE army (especially if they have a Star Dragon) so it's usually a pretty fair toss up.

You can therefore play cat and mouse with his DragonLord, and try to see who gets to charge in, if you charge him, the rider is likely going to bite it, and then the Star Dragon can be dealt with.

Limenix
23-07-2008, 13:08
I you have more units to deploy , the HE player gets a +2 to the dice roll.
(+1 skein sliver plus +1 1st to finish deploying units)

A HE Dragon rider usually has 2+ Arsv with re-roll plus 4+ ward save.
No easy kill.
Anyway it's the 6 STR 7 attacks the dragon has that are the problem.
Not the rider.

Conotor
23-07-2008, 13:14
ASF black guard. I think the only thing that can strike b4 them is PG. (am i right?)

Then sprinkle the list with assasins, 1 with 5-7 attacks, and u should do fine.

Hydras could also work well, with regeneration, or an immortal mounted dread lord chargeng out of a unit...

Dragons should be weakened by RBTs, and then killed by a hero with a strength potion and a magic weopon.

Marwynn
23-07-2008, 14:02
PG and ASF BG should strike at the same time, meaning dicing it off. However the HE player will probably shoot them silly first. Same deal with Sword Masters.

reign beaux
24-07-2008, 09:18
what about Caledore's bane?!?!?!
+3 str and NO SCALY SKIN SAVES
or would that just seem too obvious.
If you kit a drealord with almost invincible stuff ie. reverse ward save maybe 1+ as and the bane shouldn't that take care of most dragons?
if not my other solution would be to just mage the absolute **** out of the dragon till the stupid thing carks it

DeathlessDraich
24-07-2008, 10:22
It will difficult for the new DE to lose against HE - re-roll hits for every unit is a small advantage almost on par with HE ASF but the Assassins will tip the balance with their super high I and WS.

WD showed their effectiveness in the battle report.

reign beaux
24-07-2008, 11:13
then we can get armour piercing xbows and spearmen with the banner of murder =:D

Finnigan2004
24-07-2008, 17:58
WD showed their effectiveness in the battle report.

I agree with your analysis Deathless Draich. I do have to put in, however, that White Dwarf battle reports are more rigged than a WWE championship match. You've gotten me curious now though, I'll have to go back and read this battle report (probably the first one in a year).

AlphaLegionMarine
24-07-2008, 19:16
The White Dwarf also showed how awesome a Dark Elf sorceress on a Cold One is, but everyone fails to mention that you cannot cast spells if you fail your stupidity check. Moral of the story: Make your own judgements, don't let WD or anyone else tell you how something will work without experiencing it for yourself.

reign beaux
25-07-2008, 00:05
the proof that white dwarf battles are rigged
wait for it
wait for it
Alessio won
(not meant to offend any Alessio fans he just hasn't won for a long long time)

Kloud13
25-07-2008, 12:49
Another Error in the WD Battle, I believe the Dragon Princes took a couple wounds from the Hydra's Breath Attack. Dragon Armour Baby, they are Immune.

I think What I am going to have to do to counter that Reverse Ward Save Item, I think I'll have a Lord with a Null Stone Mounted on Star Dragon.

theunwantedbeing
25-07-2008, 13:04
I wouldn't advise a null stone.
As soon as your opponent finds out he's got a null stone, your dragon is going to get hit by prettymuch every bit of shooting, and your lord will die.
He'll have at best a 4+ save (5+ vs repeater crossbows)...He'll die pretty quickly.
Then the dragon can be pummelled with magic.

The new rules seem to work pretty well vs high elves.
The additional power dice you can get is incredibly useful, as is the armour piercing on crossbows...you can now pummel dragon princes and expect to kill some of them!
Phoenix guard are still a big pain to deal with though.

Max_Killfactor
25-07-2008, 13:39
I agree with your analysis Deathless Draich. I do have to put in, however, that White Dwarf battle reports are more rigged than a WWE championship match. You've gotten me curious now though, I'll have to go back and read this battle report (probably the first one in a year).

The DE vs HE battle report had some strange things going on... like high elves failing rerollable fear tests and dragon princes getting charged by corsairs. Even with that, high elves could have had a draw if the high elf player wanted to.

However, Assassins simply rock high elves. It's a taste of their own medicine. Any of our units with an Assassin should beat any HE infantry units except maybe (ironically enough) Spearmen.

We have a few ways to beat high elves.
Mass shooting/Magic
ASF Banner on Black Guard
Assassins
Hydras (against most units)
Cold One Knights (against most units)
Cold One Chariots
Dirtlord on Dragon (may be able to take star dragon lord.. not sure)

Those are our best bets. Basically anything that stays out of combat, anything that strikes first with high initiative, or anything that is tough enough to survive the High Elves striking first.

aforce808
25-07-2008, 15:52
I have not lost to the High Elves with my Dark Elves even after they got their new book. When it comes down to it, they are still T3 without too much armour. With the old book, I used lots of DRs with Noble/lance, 2 chariots, RBTs, Lvl 4 on Pegasus, Execs (can openers), etc. Elves hate chariots. Combine the superior speed our DRs have to get on a flank along with a chariot charge and you have lots of dead High Elves.

With the new book, it only gets better. The new assassin is going to be a problem for them. All of our stuff is cheaper, so you can fit more cool things in your army. Our magic just got better. Our army is more versatile in my opinion. As for the Sword Masters? Either shoot them all or just don't get into combat with them. High Elves may be easier to play with, but if you can get good at playing with Dark Elves and use your advantages, you will beat them.

Jormangundr
25-07-2008, 23:27
I think with the right tooling a HE stardragon lord can just about beat dirtlord on dragon,

I know , I cooked one up that seems to work. Just need to run him in some games now.

armour of caledor ,vambraces, talisman of loec and foe bane, good for hydras too ;o)

foe bane seems to have the added bonus of negating that horrible horrible pendant ,shame it has a 1 plus 'and' regenerate left to go...........best kill the dragon then.

reign beaux
26-07-2008, 00:12
i like the fact that everyone says assassins are going to be a big part of combatting high elves personally i thinl that they are gping to play a big part in beating everything. They along with masters are about the most optional and changealbe characters in the game.

cm2008
26-07-2008, 02:58
Hatred on DE monsters destroys HE once the swordmasters are gone the rest is smooth sailing...

Aranel
26-07-2008, 03:20
As long as a HE lord on Star Dragon gets the charge it will win. Armour of Caledor, Star Lance, Guardian Phoenix and Talismen of Leoc. Everything is targeted at the Black Dragon. Using loec the Prince will get two or three wounds and the star dragon another three. With the Black dragon dead, the 'invincable' Dreadlord will be outnumbered by a fear causing enemy and run down.

I think the new army book has made the match up really interesting. Both armies have really powerful rules but both can be countered by the other. Playing with or against the Dark elves will be a stern test of generalship.

DeathlessDraich
26-07-2008, 10:40
i like the fact that everyone says assassins are going to be a big part of combatting high elves personally i thinl that they are gping to play a big part in beating everything. They along with masters are about the most optional and changealbe characters in the game.

Agreed but I'm not sure about Masters.
Haven't got the book but in what way is the Master highly effective?

reign beaux
26-07-2008, 10:48
you can make an almost unkillable one who's only weakness is no armour save and the worst he can ever be hit by is str4

Von Wibble
26-07-2008, 12:45
Against high elves I think Hydra's Teeth have their uses. Combine with word of pain and you have real potential to put the hurt on the elite infantry. Particularly White lions, who don't get a save bonus against those attacks.

Grinloc
26-07-2008, 14:09
i like the fact that everyone says assassins are going to be a big part of combatting high elves personally i thinl that they are gping to play a big part in beating everything. They along with masters are about the most optional and changealbe characters in the game.

The thing is against an assassin those swordmasters have the same defense (T, AS) as a spear gobbo. The major difference is the swordmaster costs 3 times as much and its unit usually has a comparatively low body count.
HE got ASF to compensate for their fragility. But an assassin killing half their front rank before the SMs' compensation can come into play is a horrid thing to happen for a HE player. Even more so cause the HE player can't do that much to prevent this from happening.