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Kellaris
20-07-2008, 11:35
Here we have a banner that gives Frenzy to a unit.

If the unit would loose frenzy, will the banner grant frenzy again?

If character would leave the unit, should he keep his Frenzy?

Arbiter7
20-07-2008, 11:37
I'd say no to both.

Kellaris
20-07-2008, 11:57
I'd say no to both.

I would say it is a bit inconsequence.
If You say no for (1) then it means that banner gives frenzy once and then it have no effect. So why should it take frenzy away from character.

If You say no to (2) then it means that banner sustain frenzy on unit by magical power. Why this magic should be broken when unit would loose combat?


Edit:
I have just read the rule again and exact wording is "unit is subiect to rules of frenzy". Maybe this would suggest that unit is not frenzied, but it gets frenzy rules from standard. That IMO should mean yes to (1) and no to (2)

Crube
20-07-2008, 12:26
I think point 2 is pretty straightforward. I say the character loses his frenzy should he leave the unit.

As to point one, my take is that the banner grants the frenzy rule. Ergo once it's lost, it's lost... I see where you're coming from, but I think the banner would not enable them to never lose frenzy. Certainly not for less than 40 points...

Arbiter7
20-07-2008, 12:27
Its simple, really.


A non-frenzied character that joins a frenzied unit does not automatically benefit from frenzy.

The sea standard is an exception, since it is the banner that gives frenzy to the unit and not some special rule of the unit.

Therefore, a character that joins the corsairs will benefit from frenzy as long as he stays within the unit. If he leaves, his frenzy is lost (no longer in the unit, no longer benefited by the banner's ability which is confered to the unit).

Also, the banner states that it gives the unit frenzy. Frenzy states that if the unit loses, it loses frenzy. That's about it.

No to both. And no inconsequence as well ;)

Kellaris
20-07-2008, 12:44
So, let's say we have assasin in unit of corsairs with SSS. It may happen, that Assasin have a enemy in range and corsairs not (becouse they need to wheel).
So, Assasin charges out of the unit and when he reach enemy, he loses frenzy immediately. Am I correct?




I see where you're coming from, but I think the banner would not enable them to never lose frenzy. Certainly not for less than 40 points...
The banner hava a decent flaw - it is corsair only. Also, many times they would loose frenzy, they will also loose banner (becouse they will flee). I don't think it would be overpowered.

T10
20-07-2008, 13:17
I will agree that the rules do not explicitly cover the situations you describe, but poorly covered situations aren't a go-ahead for assuming that the best possible alternative applies.

The unit should lose the Frenzy provided by the Banner if they are beaten in close combat. (This is because the rule book indicates that Frenzy is lost if the troops are beaten in close combat. Though it is the banner that confers the Frenzy rule upon the unit and the unit may still be retaining the banner after their defeat, there is no cause (apart from wishful thinking) to infer that the frenzy rule is somehow re-applied.)

As for characters joining and leaving the unit, I can only assume that the character will be subject to Frenzy while in the unit, and that this no longer applies when the character leaves the unit. (This is because the Frenzy is applied to the unit and the character pecomes a member of the unit when he joins. When he leaves he is no longer a member of the unit).

The character should not become subject to Frenzy if he joins the unit when the unit has been beaten in close combat. (This is because the banner applies the Frenzy rule to the unit and that has been lost.)

-T10

Arbiter7
20-07-2008, 13:35
So, let's say we have assasin in unit of corsairs with SSS. It may happen, that Assasin have a enemy in range and corsairs not (becouse they need to wheel).
So, Assasin charges out of the unit and when he reach enemy, he loses frenzy immediately. Am I correct?


Nope. Incorrect.

While he is inside the unit, he counts as a member of the unit, unless he chooses to leave the unit. If he chooses to leave the unit, he loses frenzy. He can charge out on his own if he likes, but he would then lose frenzy.

BUT while he is in the unit, counting as a member of the unit, he is not compelled to charge on his own just because he is frenzied. He would be compelled only if the whole unit is elegible to charge.

Atrahasis
20-07-2008, 13:49
No, if he is frenzied and can charge he must, even if the unit cannot charge.

Arbiter7
20-07-2008, 13:59
I really don't see the reason why. The banner confers frenzy to the unit. Frenzy affects the unit as a unit. The character is part of the unit, as long as he is in the unit, and does not behave like a character unless he opts to leave the unit.

Unless he intentionally leaves the unit, (he is not frenzied by himself, remember!) he will be compelled to charge only if the whole unit has to.

Atrahasis
20-07-2008, 14:00
While he is in the unit, he is frenzied, and follows all the rules for frenzy.

Being forced to declare a charge is one of the rules for frenzy.

Gazak Blacktoof
20-07-2008, 14:08
Does the SSS even grant a character joining the unit frenzy?

If the banner is corsairs only then only corsairs can utilise the banner and benefit from its effects (at least this was the ruling on the bad moon banner- night goblins only- which couldn't affect a unit of orcs even if carried by a night goblin BSB).

Does the SSS explicitly mention that it grants frenzy to characters that join the unit?

+++++

The banner of rage (from hordes of chaos) specifically mentions that the unit may never lose frenzy. I would assume that if it were intended for the unit of corsairs carrying the banner to never lose their frenzy then the rules for the SSS would also specifically mention it.

Arbiter7
20-07-2008, 15:21
I guess "corsairs only" is the key here.

the character never gets frenzy. Who cares about some sea dog's deity anyway ?

Von Wibble
20-07-2008, 16:46
Why can't a character with the unit be a corsair? A lot of them are allowed Sea Dragon cloaks for starters.

I would have thought characters with a unit with this banner frenzy. There is another example as well - skaven characters in unit with banner of burning hatred. Surely they have hatred?

decker_cky
20-07-2008, 17:33
If the wording it "the unit is subject to frenzy" or something like that, then characters WILL be frenzied, corsairs or not. If the wording is "all corsairs in the unit are subject to frenzy", then the characters will not be. It's the same case as the old night goblin stubborn banner, which was night goblin only, but made the unit stubborn. You could put that night goblin in a unit of black orcs and the black orcs would be stubborn. The new one was worded that all night goblins in the unit are stubborn to avoid that.

Gazak Blacktoof
20-07-2008, 18:41
It's the same case as the old night goblin stubborn banner, which was night goblin only, but made the unit stubborn. You could put that night goblin in a unit of black orcs and the black orcs would be stubborn.

Per the old greenskin FAQ this was not the way it worked. Night Goblins only means precisely that. I'd expect a corsair only banner to be similar.

szlachcic
20-07-2008, 19:13
So, let's say we have assasin in unit of corsairs with SSS. It may happen, that Assasin have a enemy in range and corsairs not (becouse they need to wheel).
So, Assasin charges out of the unit and when he reach enemy, he loses frenzy immediately. Am I correct?



The banner hava a decent flaw - it is corsair only. Also, many times they would loose frenzy, they will also loose banner (becouse they will flee). I don't think it would be overpowered.

Why would the Assassin have LOS while the Corsairs do not? Characters no longer have 360 degree LOS while inside of a unit. Unless this is some odd example where the unit is at such an angle that they cannot see the target while the Assassin barely can. In this case he would have to charge out of the unit as he has frenzy.

Loopstah
20-07-2008, 19:35
Unless this is some odd example where the unit is at such an angle that they cannot see the target while the Assassin barely can. In this case he would have to charge out of the unit as he has frenzy.

I was under the impression that as characters are treated as part of the unit they join, if the assassin did have LOS to an enemy, then as he is part of the unit the unit would also have LOS?

The only way an Assassin would charge out of a unit then, is if he had a higher movement than the unit he was in, and the enemy were in range of his charge but not of the unit.

lethlis
20-07-2008, 21:42
The way it is worded unit is subject to frenzy makes me believe that as long as they don't lose the banner they retain frenzy thru the entire game, however if they run and the banner is captured then they lose it. When characters join a unit they become part of the unit(page 72) and so are subject to frenzy.

The corsair limitation determines who can buy the banner. Since there is no corsair character then only a unit of corsairs can get it. So unlike the goblin standard which could be purchased by the BSB there is no chance of it going to other units. I see no FAQ about the banner for the goblins, all the banners in the book say specifically which unit it applies to. In all recent books there have been limitations within the banner description as too whom it effects. If there was a limitation we would have seen one, if they missed it then until it is FAQed it is used as written.

If you look at the rules for frenzy it is only lost when the unit is defeated So a character leaving the unit would not lose it. Out of a unit i don't see happening very often cause any character has same move as corsairs. Unless it was something having to do with the corsairs angle where they could not wheel enough to charge but the character who was on the inside of the wheel was close enough.

szlachcic
20-07-2008, 21:48
I was under the impression that as characters are treated as part of the unit they join, if the assassin did have LOS to an enemy, then as he is part of the unit the unit would also have LOS?

The only way an Assassin would charge out of a unit then, is if he had a higher movement than the unit he was in, and the enemy were in range of his charge but not of the unit.

What you said is actually the way I play it, I just didn't understand the OP's comment and was trying to make sense of it with a bad example.

Gazak Blacktoof
20-07-2008, 22:51
I see no FAQ about the banner for the goblins, all the banners in the book say specifically which unit it applies to.

Its the older version of the banner (6th edition greenskin book). The rules for it were:


Bad Moon Banner X pts Night Goblins only

The unit is stubborn. See the Psychology section of the Warhammer rulebook, page 85.


The FAQ stated that the rule "Night Goblins only" extended not merely to which model could carry the banner but also which models could benefit from it too.



Following that same logic the only character that could benefit from it would be the new special character corsair, unless the banner mentions that characters joining the unit also gain frenzy.

lethlis
20-07-2008, 22:52
But remember that was the 6th edition FAQ and book.

decker_cky
20-07-2008, 23:26
Didn't remember that FAQ, but that changed the meaning of the text then. Until a FAQ changes the meaning, it affects the unit, and everyone in it gets frenzy.

Gazak Blacktoof
20-07-2008, 23:35
@ lethlis

I'm well aware of that. However the wording is similar and so I expect the intent of the rule is similar. If there's an FAQ that specifies characters benefit then I'll treat them as such however until then my own dark elf characters/ assassins in a unit with the banner wont be gaining frenzy as I believe that is the correct interpretation of "corsairs only".

@decker

Your interpretation differs from mine. Going on past experience I expect "corsair only" to mean precisely that.

My interpretation of "mounted only" is also that not only can infantry not purchase "mounted only" equipment but that a model reduced to walking after having their mount destroyed may not make use of such an item of war-gear.

lethlis
21-07-2008, 02:22
Agreed on the mounted only for wargear, however for the whole FAQ it is a whole edition ago, lots of wording has changed and we have a new book, they have a new book they have a new FAQ. In all the books since then when there has been a restriction it has been clearly stated.
Second the night goblin example is not the same to this dilemma. That was a situation of a BSB taking a item and trying to give its effect to completely different class of unit. This is a case of a unit buying a banner that gives the UNIT frenzy and anyone who happens to come along.

Gazak Blacktoof
21-07-2008, 09:57
We'll have to agree to disagree then. As far as I'm concerned corsairs only is no different to night goblins only or mounted only.

decker_cky
21-07-2008, 17:11
Yea...how I see it is it's corsairs only, so corsairs take it. The unit of frenzied corsairs is frenzied, and any characters joined to the unit count as part of the unit of corsairs. By extension, everything in the unit of corsairs is frenzied, leaving us with potentially frenzied assassins and dreadlords.

AUN'SHI
21-07-2008, 17:32
This is what I think... I'm not saying I'm 100% right but it makes sense to me.


If a character joins a unit he gets frenzie if the units can't charge neither can he as the character is now part of the unit. The character becoming part of the unit is in the rule book.... When the unit flees so does the character when the unit charged so does the character unless you shoot him out like a missile which you can but the unit does not have to. There fore if the unit can't charge neither can the character unless you want him to do so.

In the rule book if you run you loose frenzie as this is your built in ability. The banner grants frenzie there for you should not loose it as this is not a built in ability it is an item that grants frenzie. When you run the banner goes with you unless you get caught then your dead and the banner is lost.

This is what I think and how Id play if I used the banner.

decker_cky
21-07-2008, 18:14
If the character is frenzied and he can charge but not the unit, there's no question, he'll charge out of the unit.


A Frenzied character must declare a charge and leave a unit he is with if the unit is not declaring a charge that turn and there are enemies within charge reach of the character.

The unit is frenzied and can't declare a charge outside of the frenzy rules. This only applies when the character has a different movement value. For purposes of line of sight, they character counts as part of the unit. This means mounted characters, and assassins with their MV6 can potentially charge out of the unit.

DeathlessDraich
21-07-2008, 18:30
A Frenzied unit does not make a non Frenzied character that joins it gain extra attacks - Characters chapter.
The character merely moves in accordance with the Frenzied unit.

I haven't got the new DE book, but I'm sure Assassins are meant to be treated as characters once they are revealed?

decker_cky
21-07-2008, 18:46
It's not the unit being frenzied that would make the character frenzied, it's that the character is part of the unit and the banner making the unit frenzied. Much the same as if you had an empire general in a unit with the empire banner that makes the unit stubborn, the character, as part of the unit would be given that benefit.

There are two issues here:
1.) Does the 'Corsairs only' apply to the effect, or only to selection?
2.) Does the unit keep Frenzy, even after losing combat?

My interpretation is:
1.) Only applies to the selection.
2.) There is no listed exception, so the unit loses frenzy as usual.

lethlis
21-07-2008, 22:14
The wording is pretty straight forward in the banner, unit gains frenzy, the only reason there is any debate is because a 6TH EDITION O&G FAQ THAT DOESN't EXIST ANYMORE as far as rules are concerned said that for that specific banner in the O&G book could not apply to orcs. Every book since then has made it clear what units it can apply to by saying blank is affected by.

Gazak Blacktoof
21-07-2008, 22:39
I didn't think there was a debate:eyebrows:.

I know what I believe the term "corsairs only" indicates. Anybody that wants to disagree is free to do so. If you want a debate I'll base my argument on the term "mounted only" if that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy:).

You seem to agree that the term "mounted only" applies both to selection and application of benefits. I fail to see why that shouldn't also be the case when we replace the word "mounted" with the word "corsair".

On the point of 6th edition FAQs. I'll still happily apply them to any situation still relevant to 7th edition, there's a small enough difference between the rule sets that they provide a lot of help in keeping games running along smoothly. For instance, the perennial "what happens if I want to put a mounted character in an infantry unit?" question is handily answered on page 81 of the 2004 annual.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, etc.

lethlis
21-07-2008, 23:50
Okay yes I agree with mounted only as that is the only thing that can purchase it, same with the standard. However what mounted only items are you using to compare where any such conflict would arise?

sulla
22-07-2008, 07:04
The unit is frenzied and can't declare a charge outside of the frenzy rules. This only applies when the character has a different movement value. For purposes of line of sight, they character counts as part of the unit. This means mounted characters, and assassins with their MV6 can potentially charge out of the unit.

Thankfully this is one problem that will not actually occur. Assassins are now mv5 like everybody else (except beastmaster apprentices).

Might pay not to put mounted characters in the unit though, just to stop the warhammer universe imploding in questions of frenzy, immunity to psychology, psych tests, extra attacks etc.:wtf:

Atrahasis
22-07-2008, 08:13
This only applies when the character has a different movement value.Nope, it can happen if terrain or other units are blocking the charge path of the unit, but not the character.

If you're not careful with your screening units, frenzied characters can be pulled out on their own.

Gazak Blacktoof
22-07-2008, 08:55
Okay yes I agree with mounted only as that is the only thing that can purchase it, same with the standard. However what mounted only items are you using to compare where any such conflict would arise?

Any of them. A model that is not mounted gains no benefits from a mounted only item. A model that is not a corsair gains no benefits from a corsair only item.

Atrahasis
22-07-2008, 09:06
There is no conflict with a lance - a dismounted model can still use it, but as there are no special rules for a lance on foot, it simply works as a hand weapon.

Count Zero
22-07-2008, 09:09
i would suggest that any one joining the unit recieves the frenzy.

i dont think there are even plain old Corsairs in the new book. just 'Black Ark Corsairs'

would you say that if Lokir Fellheart was in the unit would he get frezny or not? despite that he is meant to be the corsair captin he isnt a listed as a corsair that i can see.

Gazak Blacktoof
22-07-2008, 09:29
There is no conflict with a lance - a dismounted model can still use it, but as there are no special rules for a lance on foot, it simply works as a hand weapon.

Oh dear, not this again!:cries:

A lance is a lance, at no point does it magically become a hand weapon. (Well unlesss there's a spell that does magically turn lances into hand weapons).

Lances (MOUNTED ONLY)- p.56 BRB

They are quite distinct from all other weapons and can only be used by mounted models.

I definitely don't want to have this argument again so I'm probably going to excuse myself from the thread. I think I'm just going to end up repeating myself on the main discussion topic anyway.

EDIT: @ Count Zero

Yes I'd say that Lokhir was a corsair. Its similar the questions of whether taclis is a high elf mage or whether the flame cannon's attacks are flaming. The answers to all of them are obvious even before an FAQ.

Atrahasis
22-07-2008, 09:31
What happens, then, if a model on a monstrous mount is fighting with a lance and his mount is killed? He cannot change weapons, but according to you he cannot fight with a lance either.

Gazak Blacktoof
22-07-2008, 09:36
He cannot fight with his lance so he must use another weapon.

It would be terribly awkward to prevent the model from attacking at all.

Atrahasis
22-07-2008, 09:44
So you'd just invent a rule (and ignore another), rather than simply follow the rules that are there and have him fight with the lance with no benefits?

Gazak Blacktoof
22-07-2008, 10:02
Sorry I'm not getting pulled into this again- You've asked, I've answered.

Count Zero
22-07-2008, 10:12
tut tut all going off topic.

i would agree that lokir counts as a corsair, but then surely any other character should too.
i think the term only applies that corsair units can select the item, but anyone who ends up as part of the unit gets the frenzy, it doesnt say in the banner descritipion that corsairs in the unit suffer from frenzy but just the unit. along that same line how would you resolve a charcter on a dark steed in a unit of CoK's that have gone stupid?

i think where it may differ from ther nightgoblin issue is that there is no corsair bsb who can take the banner then join a unit of black guard say.

Arbiter7
22-07-2008, 11:38
All models, including characters are assumed to have a hand weapon.

You may buy a magical weapon, but that does make the hand weapon vanish.

You simply HAVE to use the magical weapon whenever possible.

If you can't for whatever reason, you just use the standard hand weapon that ALL models are assumed to have.


Now as for the SSS I'm glad that more people feel that the character is part of the UNIT so abides by the rules of the UNIT untill he *intentionally* chooses to leave the unit, and he instantly loses frenzy. Therefore he is not obliged to charge out on his own, leaving the unit he became a part of when joining them.

It's downright silly to charge due to frenzy and instantly lose the effects of frenzy the moment you charge.

Atrahasis
22-07-2008, 11:49
"Silly" is a value judgment and has nothing to do with the rules at all.

He is absolutely obliged to charge out on his own, as he is frenzied and must therefore declare a charge.

decker_cky
22-07-2008, 15:24
I'd say if a model had a lance and fell from his beast but remained in combat, he'd have to keep fighting with his lance, just it would be a weapon without rules. This is different than a hand weapon because it doesn't allow for a parry when combined with a shield, etc...

lethlis
22-07-2008, 15:54
and also I see no reason why they lose frenzy when they leave the unit. Frenzy is something only lost when beaten in CC.

Palatine Katinka
23-07-2008, 14:47
I'd say if a model had a lance and fell from his beast but remained in combat, he'd have to keep fighting with his lance, just it would be a weapon without rules. This is different than a hand weapon because it doesn't allow for a parry when combined with a shield, etc...

What about a magic lance? :confused: Would the character still be able to use the weapon but not benefit from the lance rules? For example, the new Dark Elf weapon, Deathpiercer, would still grant magical attacks with killing blow but no longer +2 S on the charge.

Arbiter7
23-07-2008, 15:49
p.72 of the rulebook

..."a character is allowed to join a friendly unit of troops... in this case, he becomes part of that unit until he decides to leave it".

This is misleading.

p.78 of the rulebook

..."A frenzied character must declare a charge and leave a unit he is with if the unit is not declaring a charge that turn and there are enemies within the reach of the character".


I stand corrected, he has to charge on his own, but instantly loses frenzy.

bummer.

lparigi34
24-07-2008, 02:20
IMHO it would be so simple to apply the rule as stated... Corsairs Only...

Doing an analogies to an O&G Banner:

Morks Spirit Totem... can it be given to an Orc Hero BSB, then put him in a unit of goblins and still get the benefits?... Nahhhh. :cheese:

I've also reviewed rules for other magic banners (don't challenge, I have all army books at hand, and I really just went trough them) meant to be assigned to specific type of units, mostly they make clear that they affect models of the same nature of the unit only. If they missed the clarification here IMHO it does not mean that it should be lightly taken as the opposite (allowing something of a different nature to be affected), as it still mentions in the header "Corsairs Only", meaning no heroes, no Trolls and definitely no angry stepmothers, Corsairs Only, keep it simple.

Count Zero
24-07-2008, 13:10
the O&G analogy doesnt work, there is no corsair BSB who can take the banner and give it to another unit.

Von Wibble
24-07-2008, 15:00
Surely if you claim characters can't benefit from the banner because they aren't Corsairs the you imply no corsair characters exist. Might have to have a house rules stating a character is a corsair if he has a cloak...And surely Lokhir is???

decker_cky
24-07-2008, 21:26
Morks Spirit Totem... can it be given to an Orc Hero BSB, then put him in a unit of goblins and still get the benefits?... Nahhhh. :cheese:

Calling something the orcs can do cheese is self defeating. ;)

And that's perfectly legal to do. An orc is carrying the item, and the goblins still provide a rank bonus. I don't think it's a terribly good analogy though.

And obviously those are night goblins with netters, so your BSB is effectively T6 5/6 combat rounds.

theunwantedbeing
24-07-2008, 21:28
Only a unit of corsiars can take the banner.
The banner affects the unit...so anyone in the unit is affected, corsair or not.

Simple.

If they had meant only corsairs to gain the benefit of the banner then the effects of the banner would have been listed as "any corsairs in the unit will gain X effect".
But they didn't..so that's not how it works.

lethlis
25-07-2008, 07:30
yep yep, people are so used to assuming GW got it wrong that they look for errors when there are none.

lparigi34
25-07-2008, 14:59
the O&G analogy doesnt work, there is no corsair BSB who can take the banner and give it to another unit.

I disagree with you, the analogy applies as it is about letting a banner affect something different to that stated in the header for the banner, decker_cky and theunwantedbeing has totally different opinions.


Surely if you claim characters can't benefit from the banner because they aren't Corsairs the you imply no corsair characters exist. Might have to have a house rules stating a character is a corsair if he has a cloak...And surely Lokhir is???

:confused: I did not imply this, and maybe your interpretation about the Cloak and Lokhir is correct. But please read below, as I've changed my mind.


Calling something the orcs can do cheese is self defeating. ;)

And that's perfectly legal to do. An orc is carrying the item, and the goblins still provide a rank bonus. I don't think it's a terribly good analogy though.

And obviously those are night goblins with netters, so your BSB is effectively T6 5/6 combat rounds.

I think the analogy is more than good. and what you suggest would be fun!, I'll try it!!!!!


Only a unit of corsiars can take the banner.
The banner affects the unit...so anyone in the unit is affected, corsair or not.

Simple.

If they had meant only corsairs to gain the benefit of the banner then the effects of the banner would have been listed as "any corsairs in the unit will gain X effect".
But they didn't..so that's not how it works.

Ok, so what the rule comes down to is like this, according the most of the above posters, including you.

a) When a banner contains the "X-Only" description in the header it refers ONLY to the type of troop/character allowed to carry it.

b) The rest of the effects are those clearly mentioned in the wording for them.

I think I can totally live with this, seems totally logical (but as you can read from many previous posts so far, there were different interpretations, who can probably be logical too if applied homogeneously.).

And so, my Orc carrying the BSB Morks Spirit Totem is allowed to join any gobbo unit (my NGs probably) and they will get the benefits.


yep yep, people are so used to assuming GW got it wrong that they look for errors when there are none.

Yeah! as if they've never made any :rolleyes:... btw, nice contribution to the thread content...

Still, I think that the Frenzy interpretation for the Character running amok and lonely off the unit since the unit is not able to charge, but he is if alone can, is pretty awkward.

IMHO the whole unit suffers from frenzy and the unit possibility to charge is considered simultaneously (within the unit) after "normal charges", so they all charge, or none do.

Atrahasis
25-07-2008, 15:03
IMHO the whole unit suffers from frenzy and the unit possibility to charge is considered simultaneously (within the unit) after "normal charges", so they all charge, or none do.

You keep saying this, but page 78 is very explicit that a frenzied character must charge out of his unit if there are enemies in range and his unit is unable (or unwilling) to charge.

Count Zero
25-07-2008, 15:23
i still dont think the goblins will benefit as they clearly arnt orcs (when corsairs are still elves).

however there is no method to define in the DE book which charatcers can count as corsair or not, giving them a cloak can not be defining or i could give a master BSB a cloak, take the banner, and stick him in with some black guard.

i dont even know what this orc banner does, but sounds to me like you are trying to twist this to gain a unitended benefit.

Count Zero
25-07-2008, 15:27
You keep saying this, but page 78 is very explicit that a frenzied character must charge out of his unit if there are enemies in range and his unit is unable (or unwilling) to charge.

i would imagine this would be a rare situation, (unless you mount your character in the unit) or if he was on a corner edge.

Atrahasis
25-07-2008, 15:44
Not as rare as you think - terrain and other units can cause it.

Loopstah
25-07-2008, 15:49
or if he was on a corner edge.

That wouldn't count. If he can charge due to being on the corner edge then so can the unit as he is part of it. The whole unit would charge but likely only he would actually make contact.

decker_cky
25-07-2008, 15:50
i still dont think the goblins will benefit as they clearly arnt orcs (when corsairs are still elves).

however there is no method to define in the DE book which charatcers can count as corsair or not, giving them a cloak can not be defining or i could give a master BSB a cloak, take the banner, and stick him in with some black guard.

i dont even know what this orc banner does, but sounds to me like you are trying to twist this to gain a unitended benefit.

"Morks Spirit Totem - Orcs only
This magical banner adds a number of dispel dice to the pool equal to the unit's rank bonus."

I don't see how that possibly implies that it would only work in a unit of orcs. An orc must take it, but the unit rank bonus doesn't worry about whether an orc or goblin is making up those ranks.

Atrahasis
25-07-2008, 15:50
Not in all situations, Loopy. If the enemy is off to the side then the character may have enough straight-line movement to complete a charge while the requisite wheel would prevent the unit from charging.

lparigi34
25-07-2008, 16:08
You keep saying this, but page 78 is very explicit that a frenzied character must charge out of his unit if there are enemies in range and his unit is unable (or unwilling) to charge.

Ok, I concede I may be wrong in this one, I apologize for not having got back to the BRB and check this out. I will do later on, count on that.

But still is awkward!!! :p

Count Zero
25-07-2008, 16:52
"Morks Spirit Totem - Orcs only
This magical banner adds a number of dispel dice to the pool equal to the unit's rank bonus."

I don't see how that possibly implies that it would only work in a unit of orcs. An orc must take it, but the unit rank bonus doesn't worry about whether an orc or goblin is making up those ranks.

ok yeah i can see that working.

lparigi34
26-07-2008, 00:26
You keep saying this, but page 78 is very explicit that a frenzied character must charge out of his unit if there are enemies in range and his unit is unable (or unwilling) to charge.

Ok, I concede I may be wrong in this one, I apologize for not having got back to the BRB and check this out. I will do later on, count on that.

But still is awkward!!! :p

Well, I went back to the BRB. P52. 2nd paragraph.

.- If there are enemies within charge reach, unit must declare a charge.

For a starter. What is "...measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach..." here?

It does not say anything about the unit being actually being able to get in contact with the enemy, only "withing charge reach". Intervening features may still block the charge, but drag the unit into non-desirable positions (awkward, though).

This is my interpretation, but maybe it is different.

So, if the unit can declare the charge, it will, even if it fails and in this case the character will be bound by the unit movement, so no running amok towards the enemy.

Then the only case that I will agree on letting the hero charge off the unit is if his movement M is more than that of the unit and therefore he'll be able to declare a charge that the unit was not.

All of this assuming that I now agree that the banner do affect the Hero, which Im still not so sure, and specially after reading P.78 where it says that non-frenzied models do not become frenzy if they join a frenzied unit and the banner rule wording is not that specific.

But Im going to stop here...

Some will go troll at me, not without some justification. :p

For the truth sake, I'd let my opponent do as he wish if he carries the banner!!! ;)

Festus
26-07-2008, 00:57
Hi

I am firmly with Atrahasis: A model under frenzy must chareg if able to do so - and the Assassin is able to charge on its own, as he is a character ... ergo ...

Festus

kroq'gar
26-07-2008, 03:41
I'd agree with Festus & Atrahasis on that one. Irrespective of the reasons for having frenzy, the character is bound by frenzy to charge during the appropriate phase.

To me the banner would imply the giving of frenzy at the start of the battle to the regiment and any within it. If a character later joins then he does not gain the frenzy. If he deploys with the regiment, he does.

Very tempted to re-ignite the lance/on foot debate earlier, though its a little off topic

Condottiere
26-07-2008, 03:44
Wasn't there a discussion about frenzy and cavalry charging into buildings? Conclusion, you can't, therefore you don't have to?

DeathlessDraich
26-07-2008, 10:18
Now that the discussion is back on topic ...:p

1) How the Sea Serpent Standard works depends on its exact [inexact] wording.
If it states "the corsairs" are Frenzied, then it will not affect non Corsair characters in the unit - no problems here.

If it states that "the unit" is Frenzied, then every model in the unit is Frenzied.

2) The Banner rules should also state "one use only" to be absolutely clear that Frenzy cannot be regained after it is lost.

Whether the magic Banner overrides the non Frenzied character joining a Frenzied unit rules is uncertain.

But ...

The rule on pg 120 Magic Items debatably suggests that

When a character joins a unit which is Frenzied magically, he becomes Frenzied


i.e. The Serpent Standard will Frenzy any character joining it - unless it is absolutely certain that the Frenzying effect occurs only once.


3) However, the permanent Frenzy effect is also questionable:

Frenzy *can* also be lost when the Banner is lost
e.g. unit down to 2 models or negated by Vaul's unmaking and similar items.
The Frenzy conferred by the Banner cannot exist without the banner's existence - Compare this with a Banner which makes units close by Stubborn

4) Finally if a character is deployed with the unit with the Banner, the character will still retain his Frenzy when he leaves the unit since the Banner is not a RIP spell or even a spell.

To summarise:
If the 'one use only' is included or assumed, then characters deployed with the unit are Frenzied while characters joining it are not. The Frenzy effects acts normally after deployment and the Banner is no longer effective.

If 'one use' is clearly not part of the Banner's rules, then the unit can regain its Frenzy and non Frenzied characters joining it become Frenzied.

Count Zero
26-07-2008, 10:24
the exact description:

Sea Serpent Standard (corsairs only) xpts
The unit is subject to the rules for Frenzy.