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amagi
31-10-2005, 02:31
Tomb Kings units are specifically prohibited from "marching."

And the rules for reforming say that no model can move more than double its movement value.

But this is entirely different than "marching," so can TK models still move up to 8" when reforming?

Can someone quote the ruling in the Chronicles regarding skirmishers being restricted from moving "double pace"? I want to know if it says anything more general about TKs being prohibited from ever moving more than 4" for any reason. The problem is that skirmishers are apparently an exception to the fact that TKs are just prohibited from "marching," since I don't think that the rules for skirmishers refer to their move as "marching."

If, on the other hand, the BRB specifically says, as I know it does for characters on foot, that skirmishers "march" but can do so regardless of proximity, then this would further support the idea that TK can still go 8" in a reform, since it would suggest that the restriction is just on "marching" specifically.

Can anyone clarify either the wording in the BRB for skirmishers regarding "marching" or the Chronicles ruling on TK characters and skirmishers?

I know there's a thread on undead skirmishers, but it doesn't specifically address TKs reforming and it gives only vague descriptions of the rules wording.

mageith
31-10-2005, 03:03
I don't know if this ever made a Q&A
DOUBLE PACE For the next Q+A . (2 Replies). GW Gav Thorpe[]. 1/16/2003 6:05 (1/16/2003 23:40) Q. Are Tomb Kings characters and Tomb Swarms allowed to move at double pace as detailed in the skirmisher rules, as this is not strictly speaking the same as marching? A. Tomb Kings models may only ever move at their normal movement rate unless they are charging


Tomb Kings units are specifically prohibited from "marching."

And the rules for reforming say that no model can move more than double its movement value.

But this is entirely different than "marching," so can TK models still move up to 8" when reforming?

I'd say the reform rule is the reform rule and if double movement is the rule (which it is) that's how reform works. It's got nothing to do with double pace or marching.



Can someone quote the ruling in the Chronicles regarding skirmishers being restricted from moving "double pace"? I want to know if it says anything more general about TKs being prohibited from ever moving more than 4" for any reason. The problem is that skirmishers are apparently an exception to the fact that TKs are just prohibited from "marching," since I don't think that the rules for skirmishers refer to their move as "marching."


They do in Chron 04: 114. This section which replaces "everything else" no longer refers to skirmishers and 'double pace'. What skirmishers do now is march. And TK cannot march, no matter what.

Edit: Chron IV "Q. Can Tomb King single characters and skirmishers move at double movement value? No. The only case where it is possible for a Tomb Kings unit to move at double speeed is when charging." Chron 04 118.

Ith

Wickerman71
31-10-2005, 03:34
I can't find any thing that specific on Tomb Kings & reform. I don't think there is any need to treat them any differently, just because they are unable to march. The TK book even goes so far as talking about reforms in the tatic sections & makes no mention of the TombKings only being able to use 4" for that move.

amagi
31-10-2005, 03:54
I'm still not clear on this.

Chron IV "Q. Can Tomb King single characters and skirmishers move at double movement value? No. The only case where it is possible for a Tomb Kings unit to move at double speeed is when charging."

Are we saying that therefore they cannot go 8" during reforming?
This Chronicles quote does seem to prohibit this. Being GW designers though, I'm not sure they were even thinking about reforming when they wrote this though. But speculating on the designers' inner state of mind is always a hazardous undertaking.

I could still see interpreting this as allowing the 8" move during reforming, since the "unit" is not really moving anywhere, it's still where it was but in a different formation. Individual models might still be able to move 8", because the reference in the reforming rules to moving not more than double their movement value might be seen as something separate from the sort of moving that the Undead rule is designed to prevent.
This is a bit of a stretch though.

And yes the tactics section of the army book specifically mentions reforming archer units from long lines into ranked blocks, but I'm not sure they had in mind lines that were long enough so that a model would have to move more than 4", judging by the diagrams at least. Then again they do say to make the units "quite large" which would probably be at least 16 or so and they do seem to be in a single rank, which would probably require moving more than 4" when reforming....
Curse GW and their bloody ambiguities!!!!!!

Unfortunately I am still unconvinced as to either conclusion. Does anyone have a definitive, persuasive take on this?

Wickerman71
31-10-2005, 04:22
It depends wether you consider the 2xM distance the same thing as March or Double Pace. The Q&A that mageith qouted is clarifcation that TK can not use Double Pace to get around no Marching. I would not consider the distance of a reform to be the same as a movement. After all a unit can still reform at 2xM even if an enemy unit is within 8".

amagi
31-10-2005, 04:32
Well I'm leaning toward that conclusion as well.

But I can see how someone could just as adamantly insist on the opposite take, simply because the Chronicles states, "The only case where it is possible for a Tomb Kings unit to move at double speeed is when charging."

It would be highly annoying and problematic if you brought your army to a tournament or even just a pick-up game intending to play it with big units of archers that reform, and were then told that they can't do it. There's not much you could say to convince someone, since all you've got is a hazy interpretation of a vague set of mutually-contradicting rules.

It doesn't much matter for me because I only play casual games with friends, and we'd probably allow the reform.

Still, if I decide to collect Tomb Kings I certainly will not pay money for and spend time painting an army that requires a psuedo-house rule to play.