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kaulem
22-07-2008, 14:35
An opponent of mine questioned the way I placed & calculated the move of my fanatics on the turn they come out, and the rules are soooooo clear (and I don't play that often) so we decided the roll-off.

So here is the question:

Where do you place the fanatic to start measuring the move of the goblin fanatic?

A) From the edge of the night goblin unit. EX:
x=ng | f=fanatic | e=enemy


eeeee
eeeee
|
8"
|
xxxfxx
xxxxxx
xxxxxx


or

B) In front the of the night goblin unit:


eeeee
eeeee
| |
8" (7.5")
| |
| f
xxxxxx
xxxxxx
xxxxxx


Which leads to the follow up question, do you need a 8" or 9" to hit the unit? My opponent argued that in situation (A) if I rolled 8" I would stop just before the unit.

Thanks.

Lotho
22-07-2008, 15:12
You stop which ever unit is moving as soon as they are exactly 8 inches away from each other (any facing angle). The Fanatics are released from ANY point of your unit you choose, so if you go from closest point of your unit to closest point of his and roll 8 on the dice then the fanatic hits.

If you have 2 fanatics in that unit, roll the first one (I always go with closest point to point so need an 8 on the dice). If both units are aligned then 8 will probably be fine for all the fanatics (you should measure to make sure).

Our House rule
---------------
For units on an angle and their only being one point at 8" the 2nd Fanatic will most likely need to go on a different angle to the 1st so they dont collide (unless you wish them to die) so we just say they move at the unit on a slightly different angle needing 9 on the dice to hit.

Gazak Blacktoof
22-07-2008, 15:45
When I've used fanatics I use option A though it could be read as allowing for option B.

However if option B were correct I would have thought that the rules would be more explicit and mention placing the fanatic in base contact with the parent unit and then moving it 2D6" in a nominated direction.

+++++++

To clarify- I measure from a point on the edge of the parent unit and place the leading edge of the fanatic's base 2D6" away from this point.

EDIT: In situation A, I believe the fanatic needs to roll an '8' (so that it makes contact) to inflict casualties on the enemy unit. The rules actually say that the fanatic inflicts casualties if it stops "in the middle of a unit" which is a bit too specific if you ask me.

Grimgormx
22-07-2008, 19:30
When a unit moves toward a Night goblin unit, it has to stop its movement at 8 inches, if you roll an 8 it its the unit, and the fanatic is put just behind the unit hit.

its fair because with 2d6 you will get 7 or less with 21 of each 36 rolls, so with 3 goblins you will be hit with 1 and 2 will be short of distance.

T10
22-07-2008, 21:57
In most cases units will be approaching each oh at a slight angle, so an 8" move will only be enough if you are releasing the fanattic from the point closest to the enemy and directly toward the enemy. That works great for a single fanatic, but if you are releasing multiple fanatics you will most likely need to direct them all along the same line for each to score a hit with a roll of 8".

Around here we simply place the fanatcs close to the target unit, roll for distance and measure. More often than not we accept a roll of 8" to be a hit even if the fanatic's actual path would indicate that it comes up a bit short.

-T10

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
22-07-2008, 23:14
In most cases units will be approaching each oh at a slight angle, so an 8" move will only be enough if you are releasing the fanattic from the point closest to the enemy and directly toward the enemy. That works great for a single fanatic, but if you are releasing multiple fanatics you will most likely need to direct them all along the same line for each to score a hit with a roll of 8".

Around here we simply place the fanatcs close to the target unit, roll for distance and measure. More often than not we accept a roll of 8" to be a hit even if the fanatic's actual path would indicate that it comes up a bit short.

-T10

Stop playing for fun, darn it!

That's the way I would run it, too. If they have to stop 8" out, then I roll and 8" move, by gum I'd better get credit for the hit!

Nurgling Chieftain
22-07-2008, 23:58
Hmm. What happens if a fanatic hits another fanatic - as is likely if you're releasing two or more fanatics at the exact closest line?

therisnosaurus
23-07-2008, 00:14
technically, guys, you actually only need to roll 7. You place the fanatic before moving it, and since you place it in contact with the parent unit (not in it) and the model has a 1" odd wide base, a 7 will hit the enemy too.

TBH, I used to play it the old 8 way too, but I got pulled at a tournament by several vets who seemed fairly insistent it was 7"

xragg
23-07-2008, 01:03
A fanatic base is less then an inch, its about .8 of an inch in diameter. So for either situation, a roll of 8 is needed. Those tournament vets are wrong.

Gazak Blacktoof
23-07-2008, 08:16
I thought the fanatic base was 25mm diameter (or an inch)?

I even measured a 40K infantry base yesterday to check and I thought that was the smallest round base GW produced.

Condottiere
23-07-2008, 09:21
IIRC If the fanatic in the shortest distance between the two regiments moves 8", he hits and goes through that regiment. If he moves 7", he's short of an inch.

Nurgling Chieftain
23-07-2008, 09:35
Fanatics can be released in any direction, from any point on the concealing unit and move 2d6".Based on that, I think the 2d6" is measured from the edge of the parent unit, rather than placing the fanatic and then measuring (to gain an inch!).

Braad
23-07-2008, 13:33
It doesn't say anywhere to place the fanatic in base contact with his parent unit before rolling, so I don't do that. They are released from inside the parent unit, so I measure from the parent unit. Then, when you release the fanatic along the shortest line towards the target, and you roll 8", it hits. Why? Because there is an exact opening of 8" between the units, and the rules nowhere say you have to get inside the target. You just have to hit something.

8" move across a path of 8" is not ending just in front of it, it means ending in contact. Otherwise, the dice roll would have shown 7.99999999... instead of 8.

xragg
23-07-2008, 18:40
I thought the fanatic base was 25mm diameter (or an inch)?

I even measured a 40K infantry base yesterday to check and I thought that was the smallest round base GW produced.

Correct, I was thinking of a different base. The small round base is 25mm in diameter or an inch. Regardless, you measure from the parent unit as nurgling describes. The book doesnt mention anything about placing the model first, just that they are released from any point from the parent unit.

Nurgling Chieftain
23-07-2008, 19:00
...the rules nowhere say you have to get inside the target. You just have to hit something.I think you got that backwards:
If ever a Fanatic's move would end in the middle of a unit, then...

Gazak Blacktoof
23-07-2008, 19:38
Regardless, you measure from the parent unit as nurgling describes. The book doesnt mention anything about placing the model first, just that they are released from any point from the parent unit.

Yep this is exactly how I play it (see post #3).


I think you got that backwards:


Indeed. As I mentioned previously I've been playing it that you have to touch an enemy unit to inflict hits. This is incorrect and is a hang over from 6th edition o&g book where the rules stated,

"If a Fanatic touches a unit as he moves he automatically inflicts D6 Strength 5 hits". p.15

It appears that the rules as written for 7th edition indicate the need for more than 8" of movement, i.e. rolling a 9 or more, even if you move the fanatic between the closest points of the two units.

Boo! Hiss! Is all I have to say.

EDIT: I smell an imminent errata for our gaming group.

Storak
23-07-2008, 20:16
Yep this is exactly how I play it (see post #3).




Indeed. As I mentioned previously I've been playing it that you have to touch an enemy unit to inflict hits. This is incorrect and is a hang over from 6th edition o&g book where the rules stated,

"If a Fanatic touches a unit as he moves he automatically inflicts D6 Strength 5 hits". p.15

It appears that the rules as written for 7th edition indicate the need for more than 8" of movement, i.e. rolling a 9 or more, even if you move the fanatic between the closest points of the two units.

Boo! Hiss! Is all I have to say.

EDIT: I smell an imminent errata for our gaming group.

this is horrible. no errata on this?

fanatics are NOT good any longer. if we accept them to need a 9 roll, they will utterly suck. 10/36 chance to hit during first turn. if you have 2 fanatcis, you ll get slightly above a 50:50 chance to score a hit....

Gazak Blacktoof
23-07-2008, 20:24
Aye, its pretty pants considering they're not even "No Armour Save" hits any more.

EDIT: Nope, no errata apart from the one I'm going to write for my gaming group. As I mentioned in another thread we're experimenting with the greenskin rules at the moment so this change will be going straight in.

Braad
24-07-2008, 06:58
I think you got that backwards:

Darn that. Is it really in the rules like that nowadays?

I had a bunch not long ago that was even nearly incapable of damaging some chaos knights. If they have even less chance of even reaching them anymore...

Rael
26-07-2008, 12:32
I think the issue here is what is considered "contact".

In the rulebook (under heading "Splat!") it does state "when a Fanatic moves through a unit it immediately inflicts D6 Str. 5 hits". From that I would assume it means 9" but I'm not so sure.

If you consider the shooting phase, a bolt or arrow doesn't need to go through the unit to make "contact", it just needs to touch it. If a unit is exactly 24" away it is hit.

It would be great if the guy who wrote book to comment on this, what his intentions were for the rule.

Condottiere
26-07-2008, 16:32
Specific to NG Fanatics, 8" is sufficient to contact a unit and the fanatic goes through it and ends up on the other side. 7" is an inch short.

Nurgling Chieftain
26-07-2008, 16:34
I think the issue here is what is considered "contact".No, the issue here is that "contact" isn't in the rule at all. If "contact" were the standard of judgment, then we wouldn't need this discussion.

Gobbo Lord
26-07-2008, 20:23
Jesus! Having read this thread ive checked my book (First Printing LOTS of mistakes) and have discovered that yes indeed, it says the Fanatic needs to go THROUGH the target to cause wounds, not make contact. I have and always will play 8 inches, roll an eight, youve hit the target, place the fanatic an inch away on the opposite side to the side you hit.

However I can see the argument behind this, it just never occured to me that someone would try to enforce it.... If in a tournament and playing some RAW tight ass, (The same tight ass who says fanatics are killed by a hill) you would have a very hard time explaining how the rules mean you need an 8 to hit him. As touching the front clearly isnt going through the enemy. Well done on finding yet another duff rules explanation in the Orc and Goblin book, Lol, and Mat Ward said Fanatics taking up two pages of rules was too much, he was so glad he had streamlined them to one page. Well done Mat, another streamlining (Read: simplifing for the younger audience) cock up. Two years on and problems still arise. How many more will we find....

DeathlessDraich
26-07-2008, 20:58
It doesn't say anywhere to place the fanatic in base contact with his parent unit before rolling, so I don't do that. They are released from inside the parent unit, so I measure from the parent unit. Then, when you release the fanatic along the shortest line towards the target, and you roll 8", it hits. Why? Because there is an exact opening of 8" between the units, and the rules nowhere say you have to get inside the target. You just have to hit something.

8" move across a path of 8" is not ending just in front of it, it means ending in contact. Otherwise, the dice roll would have shown 7.99999999... instead of 8.


I think you got that backwards:


The Fanatic rules uses neither the word "contact" nor the word "inside".
See below**



EDIT: I smell an imminent errata for our gaming group.

Don't be too hasty, your gaming group has played it as correctly as can be.


**The actual phrase in the Fanatic rules *cannot* be taken as RAW as it would violate other rules.

First the rules it would violate:

1) 2 opposing units cannot be in contact unles charging - Movement rules

2) Only friendly characters may join a unit - Characters chapter.
Enemy characters cannot and by (1) enemy [and other friendly] models certainly cannot join a unit.


Fanatic rule:

The phrase is "end in the middle of a unit"

You can interpret 'in the middle' as

a) 'centre' of the unit which then fails to explain what happens [where is the Fanatic placed] if the Fanatic ends its movement in the second rank of a 20 model unit

Or

b) 'amidst the enemy unit' which is how players have always interpreted it. i.e. the Fanatic automatically goes through a unit it makes contact with [part of its base overlaps part of another model's base].


Gobbo Lord - Fanatics are killed by a road, a signpost and definitely a hill as these are terrain features - Chapter 1, I believe.

Gobbo Lord
26-07-2008, 21:23
Yeah I know they do. Rather than write "Fanatics are killed if coming into contact with any terrain that does not count as open ground" it was streamlined to "Fanatics are killed if coming into contact with any terrain feature" all in the name of fitting the rules onto one page. Why a Fanatic is fine on the flat battlefield but doomed if he passes over an equally flat road is beyond me. We play they are fine on open terrain and they are bearly worth their points anymore even with that concession.

Gazak Blacktoof
26-07-2008, 21:31
Don't be too hasty, your gaming group has played it as correctly as can be.

Nope, as I said we've been playing it incorrectly (using 6th edition rules) so that touching a unit inflicts hits.

We've got no qualms about changing the 7th edition rules to fit "the way we play the game" though. Frankly played as written the fanatics are rubbish and we're doing a small green skin revision anyway.

Fanatics have always been able to approach within an inch of an enemy unit without damaging it, their entire rues set is an exception to the normal rules. Under 6th edition you wouldn't stop fanatics 1" away if they couldn't contact the unit would you? Fanatics always stop where the random movement decrees except if that moves ends within a unit in which case their move is extended so that they continue until they are clear of that unit by 1".

xragg
27-07-2008, 01:45
I dont want to get off topic, but ever try to spin a top up an incline? Really cant do it. Pretty much the top will either lose its center of balance, lose momentum, or turn around. Same applies to a fanatic twirling madly with his ball and chain. Going up an incline will easily cause him to get tangled in his own chain as he struggles to keep balance or momentum going up the hill. I know game mechanics and real world physics often dont agree, but I am just trying to justify why I have no problem that fanatics die to ANY terrian feature, including hills.

Nurgling Chieftain
27-07-2008, 02:36
b) 'amidst the enemy unit' which is how players have always interpreted it. i.e. the Fanatic automatically goes through a unit it makes contact with [part of its base overlaps part of another model's base].You seem to be skipping the actual matter of contention: the case where the models ARE in contact, but no part of the bases overlap. This is, by definition, what happens when a fanatic is thrown over the shortest distance and rolls an eight. It seems to me to be "in contact" but not "overlapping" nor "in the middle of".

DeathlessDraich
27-07-2008, 11:31
I applaud your O&G opponents for freely accepting the *fraction of a millimetre* distinction, you make, that distinguishes 'just making contact' and a 'partial overlap'. :p

In all the games I've observed, the margin of error in measurement is almost a hundred fold.

Rael
27-07-2008, 12:55
If the fanatics make "contact" by rolling exactly 8" I don't see how they would "go through the unit" to the other side. The thing is it does't say anything about this in the OnG book.

I believe that "contact (8")" should be the rule. I think though we are forced to use the "must roll 9" to make contact" rule.

We are assuming that the "must roll 9" to make contact" rule was not intentional. What if the game designers were trying to weaken the Fanatics abit.

Until we get a responce from the ACTUAL writer of the book on what his intent was, it unfortunately seems like we are forced to roll 9".

Anyone over on the UK side know a way to contact this dude?

Gobbo Lord
27-07-2008, 14:10
Its nigh on impossible to get a response concering these things from the main design team. They either refer you to FAQs or you speak to someone on the phone or recieve an email.

The problem with this are there are some people who wont allow any rulings unless its in a published FAQ, got a letter off of Mat Ward, no good im afraid.

These people are WAAC Tournament, Arses (Not all tournamnet players mind, just those particular ones, you know the ones who give you no comp scores even if youve got a themed army, the ones who argue about half a milimeter all to get the upper hand)

Lorcryst
27-07-2008, 14:40
We are assuming that the "must roll 9" to make contact" rule was not intentional. What if the game designers were trying to weaken the Fanatics abit.


You mean, even more weakened than by losing the "no armour saves" rule, replaced by "S5, armour piercing" ?

I still fail to see where the problem is, enemy units stop 8" away when you release Fanatics, if you roll 8" or more you do some hits ... that's probably the only thing that hasn't changed in the Fanatics mechanics over the years and editions of Warhammer : as soon as the Fanatic's base slightly caresses enemy bases, they do their (potentialy deadly, or pitiful) damage.


What I would really like to know is why the 7ed O&G book was designed with its own special, unique, never seen before nor again, philosophy of "raising the point costs across the whole army" ... but I don't hold even a glimmer of hope of having Mr Ward answer that question.

DeathlessDraich
27-07-2008, 17:59
There is no real problem here so I'll make one last reiteration of my previous post.


If the fanatics make "contact" by rolling exactly 8" I don't see how they would "go through the unit" to the other side. The thing is it does't say anything about this in the OnG book.
?

They *must* go through if they make contact.

Disallowing them from doing so means you have 2 enemy models in contact but *not from a charge*
- This *violates* a well known rule - See Movement and charging

Loopstah
27-07-2008, 18:06
They *must* go through if they make contact.

Disallowing them from doing so means you have 2 enemy models in contact but *not from a charge*
- This *violates* a well known rule - See Movement and charging

Not necessarily, you could always stop them 1" short of the unit, which is just as valid a way of stopping two enemy units making contact without charging as adding an extra 3-8" of movement to the fanatic is.

DeathlessDraich
27-07-2008, 18:36
Lol! Lol! Lol!

Gazak Blacktoof
27-07-2008, 18:44
I applaud your O&G opponents for freely accepting the *fraction of a millimetre* distinction, you make, that distinguishes 'just making contact' and a 'partial overlap'. :p

In all the games I've observed, the margin of error in measurement is almost a hundred fold.

In this situation you are dealing with exact and known quantities. The units are exactly 8" apart according to the rules no matter how far apart the units have actually been placed.

Its the same idea that prevents a unit of movement 4 infantry from charging an enemy unit on turn 3 if the enemy unit hasn't moved outside its deployment zone. The same applies to a 24" range weapon- there's no way it can conceivably hit the enemy until either the target or the firing unit has left their deployment zones- you KNOW they are more than 24" apart as that's prescribed by the rules. you KNOW a unit forcing a fanatic to be released is 8" away from the concealing unit.

Rolling an 8 on 2D6 brings you into contact with the enemy unit and according to the 7th edition rules this wont inflict any hits- it would using the older 6th edition greenskin book. Was this the intention? Probably not, but there isn't anything to discus as far as the exact wording of the current rules are concerned, they are entirely unambiguous.

Forcing the fanatic through the unit OR stopping it 1" away are not supported by the rules. I would however suggest moving the fanatic through the enemy unit and inflicting hits as a house rule- this is the way everybody plays it anyway.

Loopstah
27-07-2008, 18:57
Forcing the fanatic through the unit OR stopping it 1" away are not supported by the rules. I would however suggest moving the fanatic through the enemy unit and inflicting hits as a house rule- this is the way everybody plays it anyway.

Exactly. I'd never actually suggest stopping it 1" short but it has just as much validity as moving them through the unit does, i.e. just a house rule. :D

Gazak Blacktoof
27-07-2008, 20:50
Yeah, I know you were just providing a counterpoint to DeathlessDraich's suggestion- i.e. if you're going to ignore the rules why not do it this way.

Colonel Fitzgerald
28-07-2008, 12:56
Not necessarily, you could always stop them 1" short of the unit, which is just as valid a way of stopping two enemy units making contact without charging as adding an extra 3-8" of movement to the fanatic is.

I don't think you CAN stop them 1" short of the enemy - the move is compulsory, just like fleeing troops. They have to move the full distance rolled a la Squig Hoppers - if they come into contact with the enemy, they must surely bounce through it as with fleeing troops hitting friendly units. No?:angel: Either that, or, they do stop in contact with the enemy & force them to back up or move thru, thus taking hits? I thought no unit could come within 1" of the enemy without charging it - but the Fanatic move is Compulsory & so outside that stipulation. Consider, if the Fanatic were fleeing, it would be destroyed if the enemy had Unist Strength 5, but as it's like a frenzied missile, beyond the control of the Orc Player, surely you must resort to the most sensible solution. Since it CAN'T stop, as the move is Compulsory, surely it has to bounce thru & cause the hits, or else it contravenes the proximity rule?

Fanatics are crap now though lol - I used 6 of them & caused like 2 casualties - for 150 pointrs. I could have just had another Black Orc with shiny blade of killyness for that & at least he would have stopped the regiment he was with squabbling...

EvC
28-07-2008, 13:11
But based on that line of thinking, does that mean if you have a fanatic who would end his move 0.4" from the enemy, you should bump him through the unit and damage it?

Von Bismarck
28-07-2008, 13:12
this argument is basicallt consernining the 1 in a million situation where player Bs models are exactly 8'' away from the goblins and the fanatic rolls and 8'' and stop directly base to base with the unit.

how often does that happen?!!

most people can estimate 8'' but i hightly doubt it would be to the millimeter.

I think (as my mate has picked up goblins as his new army) the house rules should be as follows:

An enemy unit moves within 8'' of a unit housing fanatics, after they have completed their movement and they are found to be within 8'' the fanatics are released.

the fanatics are placed at the release point chosen by the controling player, their base must be in contact with the parent unit.

the 2d6 '' are then rolled and the fanatics move.

A fanatics base must have passed through a unit (friend or foe), i.e. moved from one arc to another, for example flank to rear, front to rear etc to inflict the d6 str5 hits.

If a fanatics base ends its movement wholey within a unit (friend or foe), then it inflicts 2d6 str5 hits and it removed as a casulty.

If the fanatic lands wholey within a skirmishing unit it only inflicts d6+d3 (a opposed to the conventional 2d6) str5 hits.

If a fanatics base is not wholey within a unit at the end of its move it is treated as moving though the unit and is placed outside the unit but in base to base contact, however this does not but the units into hand to hand combat.

All fanatic damage is distrobuted as shooting.

If 2 fanatics come into base to base contact or pass through each other in the movement phase both are destroyed.

so how does that sound?

Colonel Fitzgerald
28-07-2008, 13:12
But based on that line of thinking, does that mean if you have a fanatic who would end his move 0.4" from the enemy, you should bump him through the unit and damage it?

I was just thinking on this very thing - RAW, yes, I would say that you would! This is mitigated by the nerfed damage they put out though, IMO

EvC
28-07-2008, 13:21
Lol, well I won't agree or disagree on that. I think Orcs are a weak army, but Fanatics are not one of their weaknesses...

One in a million von Bismarck?! No, once a game more likely, as enemy units stop exactly 8" from the enemy. All that must happen is for them to roll 8" for a Fanatic. For the record that counts as hitting and going through the enemy in my books :)

DeathlessDraich
28-07-2008, 14:55
Rolling an 8 on 2D6 brings you into contact with the enemy unit and according to the 7th edition rules this wont inflict any hits- it would using the older 6th edition greenskin book. Was this the intention? Probably not, but there isn't anything to discus as far as the exact wording of the current rules are concerned, they are entirely unambiguous.

Forcing the fanatic through the unit OR stopping it 1" away are not supported by the rules. I would however suggest moving the fanatic through the enemy unit and inflicting hits as a house rule- this is the way everybody plays it anyway.

I refer you to post #33.

Gazak Blacktoof
28-07-2008, 15:07
I've already read that and that's not what the fanatic rules say at all.

Condottiere
28-07-2008, 15:45
I forget - can you send 3 fanatics along the same flight path? Can their bases intersect?

DeathlessDraich
28-07-2008, 17:43
I've already read that and that's not what the fanatic rules say at all.

You need to read it a little more carefully.

My post #33 is not about Fanatic rules but the BRB rules and how fundamental BRB rules are violated if the 'contact does not go through' interpretation for Fanatics is accepted.

Lorcryst
28-07-2008, 17:58
@Von Bismark : read the Fanatics rules. Even if they are badly written, there are some really clear points in there that totally contradict your house rules.

Most notably the one that says that if a Fanatic stops in the middle of an enemy unit, it is "bounced" 1" behind the unit on the same trajectory, and the one that says that an enemy unit must finish it's move on a Fanatic to destroy it (and suffer 2D6 hits).

@Condottieri : yes, you can send 3 Fanatics along the same path. It's not officialy written (or at least, my search-fu is too weak to find it), but in the case of two Fanatics overlapping, my gaming group decided that they should do their D6 hits on each other, and IF (by some miracle) one or both survive, they "bounce" 1" in the same trajectory.

Gobbo Lord
28-07-2008, 18:48
They used to kill each other if they hit one another, another casualty of the "fit the fanatics rules onto one page as two pages is two much for one thing" mentality that Mr Ward seemed to vigourously persue. Heres a hint Matt, they took two pages because all of these eventualities were covered and everyone knew where they stood, two pages were required for the smooth running of fanatics in game. By streamlining them you have made them the subject of many contentions, arrrgggghhhh...........

I get annoyed