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Crube
22-07-2008, 19:56
OK guys, I may be missing somethng here, but anyway...

I was loking through my shiny new DE book and looking at a few different lists. I thought of mounting a lord on a monster/gribbly thing and noticed the difference between a Manticore and Dragon.

Now granted, the Dragon is 120 points more, but that seems a bargain for + 1WS, +1S, +1T, +2 Wounds, +1A, +3 Ld, a breath weapon and a 3+ Scaly Skin save. All the Manticore has (that I can see) is +2I, Killing Blow, and the possibility of getting Frenzy - which if a Dreadlord is mounted on it, with Ld 10, isn't going to happen that often. Oh, and it has no save.

Now I appreciate that 120 points is a reasonable amount (another 5 Dark Riders for example) but if you're going to mount your Lord on a Gribbly, then why would you bother with the Manticore

theunwantedbeing
22-07-2008, 20:00
The dragon doesnt get killing blow, nor does the dragon get the chance to frenzy the rider, also, a dragon that loses it's mount is far more likely to simply flee the battlefield.

The manticore isnt half as bad as it seems.
The mantireo also doesnt take up an additional hero slot, the dragon does.

Crube
22-07-2008, 20:42
True.

However (to my mind) as I mentioned, a Dreadlord with Ld10 is rarely going to get frenzy (admitedly when it does - way-hey), plus I'm not intending to lose my general :D

As for the hero slot - I have it spare - so little issue there for me. Is killing blow really worth it. I reckon (rather crudely) that 5 attacks with KB and WS5 / S5 are about equal to WS6 / S6.

I suppose my main thought is the lack of a save for the Manticore...

emperorpenguin
22-07-2008, 21:50
Ring of Darkness is your friend in that case. Really helps keep your Manticore alive

BTW why is the thread entitled Dragon v Hydra?

Crube
22-07-2008, 21:53
Because I'm a muppet... :o

I'll nip in in a moment to change it...

Ring of Darkness - it's an item i love, but the thing that still scares me is when something does hit. Surely better to have Ring of Darkness with the Dragon...?

Limenix
23-07-2008, 11:02
Ring of Darkness looses a lot of it's potential when mounted on a large target.
Everybody will hit you on 4's.
That's not enough for me considering the 40Pts for the item.
5's would be more like it.
Anyway i realy love the manticore but most of all , the thing that
makes me prefer a cold one for my Dreadlord is that it only has 4 wounds.
Still ... i will playtest it Vs a dwarf gunline to see how it goes.

P.S. Now that i mentioned stunties... the Anvil will affect the Manticore.
Again a reason to prefer a cold one.

Von Wibble
23-07-2008, 13:06
Ring of Darkness does more than you give it credit for. Vs Ws 4 and below it actually makes them hit on 5+, and WS 6and below if targetting your Dreadlord.

Also, more importantly, it halves BS. Wood Elf archery is now 5+ to hit you instead of 3+. Dark Elves can forget about multishot as it will be 7 to hit at long range. Though being a large target admittedly negates a lot of this argument.

At the end of the day, if you do have the hero slot I agree with Crube, the Dragon is far better. With assassins not being characters this seems quite a likely scenario as only sorceresses and BSB are real competition.

If you don't then the Manticore wins. Comparing Dreadlord on Manticore plus Master on Pegasus with Dreadlord on Dragon is the fair way of doing it I suppose...

Defender of Ulthuan
24-07-2008, 18:41
I would say that the dragon is obviously the better choice.

However, can a Master not also ride a Manticore?
This, I think, would be the time to take such a beast. (only if he can, of course... I've not yet seen the book..)

I really don't think the "general v. army" situation applies to the point difference (although the 120pts is an obvious bonus), because using a monstrous mount is really already deciding that factor. People who want "armies" make their generals ride cold ones.

It must be said that an extra reaper and a sword of might never hurt anyone who's command they were under.

I would go dragon, personally, but tell you I'd also like to see your list.

Defender
P.S.- Let's not forget that both mounts now get hatred :-)

Archaon
24-07-2008, 19:22
The main weakness of the Manticore is that it has no save whatsoever.

Granted.. even a Dragon doesn't take kindly to a cannonball or other nasties in the same category but it usually will shrug of most infantry missile fire whereas the Manticore won't.

I've lost quite a few Manticores to Imperial Musketeers, simple archers, crossbows and whatever else there is.

With a Dragon you can risk placing it in the open to line up a crucial charge a turn or two earlier (if there's nothing in the vicinity that ignores armor saves and does Dx damage of course).

I believe that really outweighs the increased points cost and the additional slot. Now the drawback is that there are still many other ways to stop or otherwise occupy a Dragon so he won't win the battle himself.

Royal Tiger
24-07-2008, 19:27
to me it would all depend on looks

if I preferred the looks of the Manticore (which I don't btw) then my lord would be forever mounted on such a beast
if I preferred the looks of the *Converted high elf* Dragon (which I do btw) then my lord would be forever mounted on such a beast

although in the end I'd still probably go with a cold one, just cus the dreadlord model on one looks great

cm2008
26-07-2008, 03:03
If you want to kill something dead ,Manticore with the KB lance!

minionboy
26-07-2008, 04:22
I see a big advantage of the Manticore is freeing up the Hero slot. Having a Lord on Dragon and Master on Manticore leaves no room for any magic defense. If you take a lord on manticore and master on manticore, you still have a free hero slot to take a sorceress for added defense.

DeathlessDraich
26-07-2008, 10:47
The dragon doesnt get killing blow, nor does the dragon get the chance to frenzy the rider, also, a dragon that loses it's mount is far more likely to simply flee the battlefield.

The manticore isnt half as bad as it seems.
The mantireo also doesnt take up an additional hero slot, the dragon does.

Doesn't the Master on a Manticore take up an additional hero slot?


to me it would all depend on looks

if I preferred the looks of the Manticore (which I don't btw) then my lord would be forever mounted on such a beast
if I preferred the looks of the *Converted high elf* Dragon (which I do btw) then my lord would be forever mounted on such a beast

although in the end I'd still probably go with a cold one, just cus the dreadlord model on one looks great


Hmmm. A converted HE model used in a DE army :eek: The purists will be outraged.:p


On the original question - I experimented with Manticores in 6th ed DE, - even 2 Manticores once and they are definitely not worth it.

I fail to see how the new Manticore would be any better.

Xzazzarai
26-07-2008, 13:13
The thing is very similar to the HE Griffon vs Dragon dispute. I don't think that Griffons/Manticores is a bad choice, just that they are competing with the Dragon for the same role in the army in many peoples eyes. Big, nasty monsters flying around killing stuff at will. Or, something like that atleast. ^^

It's diffrent though. The Griffon/Manticore is weaker and lacks both save and a breath weapon. They can't be used in the same way as a Dragon, which very few people I've come against have really known. They can't just slam pretty much anything in the flank and expect to break it, nor can they be targeted with any massed/heavy shooting and stand a good chace of surviving.

They require diffrent usage, or limited usage if you look at it from a Dragons perspective :p