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Hierarch
24-07-2008, 05:50
The Primarchs DNA/Genetic Material comes from the Emperor himself. Half of the Primarchs known are corrupted, so does that mean even the Emperor is corruptable?

AngryAngel
24-07-2008, 05:57
Nope, and even thinking it is heresy beyond compare, this discussion is over.

Donblas
24-07-2008, 05:59
He already is corrupted putrid false god that rules over the weak and pathetic humans is nothing compared to any other god. Anyway I dont think he is because fluff wise he is suppose to be just about the only human who doesnt have to fear the warp when he uses psyker powers not even Eldrad Ulthran can pull that one off.

Hierarch
24-07-2008, 05:59
Yeah what I am trying to say is that he made sons that are a part of him. He is supposedly pure. So if some of his sons that are corrupted dosent that men he is too because they are a part of him?

kundvagn
24-07-2008, 06:00
I wasn't aware that the corruption to chaos was connected with the persons DNA.

But then again I'm hardly an expert when it comes to wh40k-fluff.

Donblas
24-07-2008, 06:00
Well they are not exact clones of him just close so no they wouldnt be pure like he is.

Hierarch
24-07-2008, 06:04
Ah ok. I was trying to get peoples opinions on this to see if it may have some sense to it.

Kyrolon
24-07-2008, 06:20
The emperor is an example of someone who was already corrupted by chaos long ago, but has attained enough power to become a force in his own right. Eldrad tried to warn him millenia ago that he was setting humanity on the path to destruction, but he ignored the warnings. Horus and his brothers fell, he emperors power began to wane and humanity is sliding toward the end of all things. The Eldar suffered the same fate that led to the fall. There is one absolute with choas. If you use it, it WILL corrupt you no matter who you are if you love long enough. ( I really mean LIVE long enough. Must have been Slaanesh in my mind there for a minute.) :)

Donblas
24-07-2008, 06:24
If only the humans could create somthing as nice and great as Slaanesh it would be a dream come true.

starlight
24-07-2008, 06:38
...or a living nightmare.:eek:


The Emperor is the gesalt of dozens or hundreds of psykers, so being based on humans, there is the possibility that his mortal form could become corrupted, however his Immortal Soul is another question, for which I think the answer is (bear with me):

Yes.

As the pinnacle of humanity, he has the ultimate free will, which is what Chaos depends on. Humans *choosing* Chaos. Since The Emperor has *chosen* to fight Chaos with every fiber and breath, I think that the answer is fairly clear.

He *could*, but he *won't.

TheOverlord
24-07-2008, 07:04
If you had 2 sons, and one of them decided to be a murderer, does that automatically make you a half-wannabe-murderer?

I don't think this question is even logical.

Triggerdog
24-07-2008, 07:07
If you had 2 sons, and one of them decided to be a murderer, does that automatically make you a half-wannabe-murderer?

I don't think this question is even logical.

yay a logical response to the original question!

starlight
24-07-2008, 07:12
Choosing to commit a crime and choosing to fall to Chaos are not the same, although both are expressions of free will.


The Emperor *knows* what Chaos is (at least moreso than anyone else of the time), and he chose not to fall. Each of his sons had the same choice. Half (that we know of) fell, half (that we know of) did not. Whether or not they had the same knowledge of Chaos is unknown, but it is unlikely.

sigur
24-07-2008, 07:40
yay a logical response to the original question!

...contrary to 2/3rd of the replies here which are just the usual 40k General spam.

The Primarchs had been touched by Chaos when they were stolen by the chaos gods and spread all across the galaxy. It's not sure if the Primarchs who later sided with the dark gods were tainted then. It has nothing to do with the Emperor's DNA.

TheOverlord
24-07-2008, 07:46
I'm not sure if that was sarcasm, but I'll take any reply from Triggerdog as a praise :D

TheLionReturns
24-07-2008, 09:09
The Primarchs represented facets of the Emperors personality. The overbalance towards certain dominant psychological traits in each one made them corruptible. The Emperor is portrayed as the pinnacle of humanity, the ultimately balanced character with all emotions either controlled or balanced by counter points, so he has no psychological weaknesses to exploit. For example he has the curiosity seen in Magnus. In Magnus this is unchecked and leads him to dangerous places, but the Emperor also exhibits the caution and suspicion that you might associate with the Lion.

So no the Emperor is not corruptible. The Primarchs were simply imperfect copies and corruptible as a result.

Hierarch
24-07-2008, 15:34
Cool thanks for staitening that out.

Kyrolon
24-07-2008, 19:28
So no the Emperor is not corruptible.

Except we already have several indicators that he has been corrupted. Let's look at a few things:

1.) The Emperor is an immortal being.
That's certainly not normal. Where does he draw his power from to sustain that life?

2.) The Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the material universe.
Psychic powers are a product of the warp. The Emperor knows as much or more about these things than anyone, including Magnus who was branded corrupt and his chapter destroyed for it.

3.) The Emperor exists by using the power of sacrificed souls.
A thousand souls a day are sacrificed to the emperor to give him the power to keep the astronomicon burning. Who else devours souls? Chaos maybe?

The point is, the Emperor, though he opposes the chaos powers, has been corrupted (as in a tool of) raw chaos itself. His goals and aspirations are the same as the chaos gods. He is rapidly approaching apotheosis into a 5th power rising on the worship of humanity. To me at least this is the epitome of corruption. Much like a radical inquisitor he started out using chaos to fight chaos (in using warp spawned tech to make the primarchs). It has taken all of his humanity from him and left him as a fledgling god, just as the malefic will of the warp wanted.

Hope that's logical enough for you Triggerdog.

Dan

Jon_Irenicus
24-07-2008, 20:00
Eldar were immortal too and they weren't corrupted by Chaos. The Eldar have powerful psykers that can use warp fuelled power. This doesn't mean they are corrupted - Mastering the Warp and not succumbing to it is a proof of that.

The Emperor showed cold logic throughout his decisions - the expansion of his empire, the extermination of other races, the attacks on small human planets - he isn't a single-minded entity.

So, Kyrilon, I think your arguments are flawed as nothing can be concluded - you do not state the full truth. Devouring the psychic energies to keep the Astronomical intact is a necessary evil - otherwise, there would be millions of casualties. And we don't know if it is powering the Emperor himself, we know it powers the Light.

Magnus wasn't just using psychic powers, he was using "sorcery". How it differs, I'm not sure, but it seems like it was a different way of tapping warp energy, probably something to do with rituals and obscure knowledge, hence Magnus' need to collect information. The fact that he knows about it doesn't mean he used it - I don't know if you've read the last Harry Potter books, but it's like Dumbledore and the Horcruxes.

I don't know the bit about Warp powered tech used in making the primarchs, but he hardly planned for his physical death against Horus - the GT was the only thing that would keep him from dying,which would spell the end of Humanity. At no time did he seem fallible to the powers of the Warp, which was why the Chaos Gods feared him and sought to corrupt the Primarchs.

Kyrolon
24-07-2008, 21:03
Eldar were immortal too and they weren't corrupted by Chaos. The Eldar have powerful psykers that can use warp fuelled power. This doesn't mean they are corrupted - Mastering the Warp and not succumbing to it is a proof of that.

I would argue that the Eldar were corrupted by the use of the warp. Look at the Fall for reference. The only way they avoid it now is through the discipline of the Path. I would say that Eldar do still fall from time to time, but they are less likely to be known to fall because they are likely consumed in the process, unlike humans.



The Emperor showed cold logic throughout his decisions - the expansion of his empire, the extermination of other races, the attacks on small human planets - he isn't a single-minded entity.

Logic =/= lack of corruption. You can conquer the galaxy without commiting frequent genocide, even against other humans. Chaos can be logical when it wants or needs to. The corruption is the desire to be all powerful, not the means achieved to take the power.



So, Kyrilon, I think your arguments are flawed as nothing can be concluded - you do not state the full truth. Devouring the psychic energies to keep the Astronomical intact is a necessary evil - otherwise, there would be millions of casualties. And we don't know if it is powering the Emperor himself, we know it powers the Light.


Mankind would not die without the Astronomicon, the Empire would. As such, the need for the Astronomicon is to sustain the Emperor's powers. And yes I believe the souls go to power the Emperor himself, at least that's how it was written when I started. Maybe they (or the Imperial propagandists at least) have softened that stance since the '90's. This reliance on devoured souls is why the Emperor is often called the Carrion god by Eldar and by Chaos Marines.



Magnus wasn't just using psychic powers, he was using "sorcery". How it differs, I'm not sure, but it seems like it was a different way of tapping warp energy, probably something to do with rituals and obscure knowledge, hence Magnus' need to collect information. The fact that he knows about it doesn't mean he used it - I don't know if you've read the last Harry Potter books, but it's like Dumbledore and the Horcruxes.


Actually I have read the Harry Potter books. The horcruxes are a good example too. Correct, Dumbledore chose not to use them, but the flaw here is that the Emperor isn't Dumbledore. The Emperor is one of the creators of the horcruxes. A few examples: Spear of Russ (from space wolf series), Soulspear (from soul drinkers series), and the big warp gate that he was trying to use behind the golden throne. The emperor knew about combining warp powers and technology and knowingly used it. That's not equivalent to your analogy, in fact it's as if Dumbledore did use the Horcruxes to challenge Voldemort as the Emperor used warp powers to challenge chaos.



I don't know the bit about Warp powered tech used in making the primarchs,


This is alluded to in the Horus Heresy books.



but he hardly planned for his physical death against Horus - the GT was the only thing that would keep him from dying,which would spell the end of Humanity. At no time did he seem fallible to the powers of the Warp, which was why the Chaos Gods feared him and sought to corrupt the Primarchs.

No, the Emperor didn't plan for his physical death, but he was sowing the seeds for his deification. He stamped out all other religions, and by consistently saying he wasn't a god, he planted the seeds for those very thoughts.

The Emperor was infallible in the sense that he could not be subjugated by the other chaos gods, but he was powerful enough to challenge them as an equal, and in so doing rising to their level. The Imperium is no more "good" than Nurgle is. Papa Nurgle cares for his followers. That doesn't change the fact that he's a soul devouring monstrosity just like the Emperor. I'd wager the Imperium kills more humans per annum that the chaos powers combined.

As to why the chaos gods feared the Emperor, it wasn't because he was incorruptible, but because he could challenge them directly. When they couldn't overpower him they resorted to subterfuge by seducing his sons. This resulted in his (un)death.

Your argument basically rests on the idea of the ends justifying the means. That may be accurate, but corruption by the warp is corruption by the warp regardless of how necessary it may be. Abnett deals with this pretty well in Eisenhorn BTW. Gregor knows he's being corrupted, but can see no alternative to his actions because failing would be worse. That doesn't mean he's incorruptible though.

If we take this back far enough, the original corruption was on the part of the Old Ones when they started drwing on the immaterium to fight the C'tan. That was the "original corruption" if you will. The power was there, they used it, and the future was almost foreordained that chaos would continue to seduce and grow.

At least that's my theory on it.

Dan

Hierarch
24-07-2008, 21:26
Eldar were immortal too and they weren't corrupted by Chaos. The Eldar have powerful psykers that can use warp fuelled power.

But didn't they create Slaneesh the Prince of Excess? The mere birth of the Prince of Excess nearly caused the extinction of the Eldar race. They created it and it is a chaos god so they surely they must be evil but just a different kind of evil.

Khaine's Messenger
24-07-2008, 21:29
The Emperor is ultimately Human, and possessed of human failings and flaws. If one believes that this opens him up to corruption, then yes, he's corruptable. However, his absolute dedication to Humanity channels most of his flaws in that direction, focusing any twist of corruption into his vision of the cosmos. Where otherse become defined and ultimately consumed by their corruption, the Emperor is not. Like those who have undergone Illumination and cast out their inner daemons, any falts and foibles they suffer are purely human. And there's something sacred (and horrifying) about that, from the perspective of 40k's cosmology.

Rabid Bunny 666
24-07-2008, 21:34
Theres a paragraph in one of the Realm of Chaos books about this, the Chaos Gods whisper into his mortal body trying to corrupt him, and its working :evilgrin:


edit; kapouw!


Realms of Chaos; the Lost and the Damned, page 185

"Even the Golden Throne cannot keep the cells of the Emperor's dead body alive forever. Over the milennia the link between his soul and body has become increasingly tenuous. Worse of all, the Powers of Chaos have begun to infiltrate his mind,sowing seeds of doubt, dissolution and fear"

nagash66
24-07-2008, 22:35
Theres a paragraph in one of the Realm of Chaos books about this, the Chaos Gods whisper into his mortal body trying to corrupt him, and its working :evilgrin:



The Emperor cannot be corrupted, he can be show doubt, fear and other emotions but this proves nothing more then his humanity, personally i thinkthat the big 4 were scared of him says more about his character and power , and as always we must remember that for the Emperor to protect humanity, humanity must protect the Emperor both in body and through their faith in him his very soul

HsojVvad
24-07-2008, 22:52
I thought the genetic make up for the Primarchs were not from the Emperor. The only Chapter to have the Emperor's Genitics were the Grey Knights, and that is speculation only.

Where can I find that the Primarchs had the Emperor's make up. Did I read the DH codex wrong then?

Hierarch
24-07-2008, 23:04
"The Emperor used his own DNA in their creation, and they were designed to be far superior to the average human: immensely larger, stronger, hardier, faster, and smarter." --- http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Primarchs

ReveredChaplainDrake
25-07-2008, 01:19
I thought the genetic make up for the Primarchs were not from the Emperor. The only Chapter to have the Emperor's Genitics were the Grey Knights, and that is speculation only.

Where can I find that the Primarchs had the Emperor's make up. Did I read the DH codex wrong then?

Actually all Space Marines (including Chaos Marines, though possibly excluding Daemon Princes, Spawn victims, Rubric Marines, and Fabius's "volunteers") have some of the Emperor's genetics. That's the whole point of "geneseed" preservation, and it's why their most basic Infantry boast as much skill as a highly-seasoned IG officer. It's just that Grey Knight Terminators experience the soul-binding.

Lotan
25-07-2008, 01:50
Why does everyone think that warp=corruption?

The Emperor was born/created/whatever whe the warp was still relatively stable. It is not the warp that corrupts, it is the entities held therein that corrupt. As these entities mirrored the behaviour and mind sets of the sentient races of the time it shows that the warp, infact, does not corrupt, it was the sentient races such as humans and the eldar that corrupted the otherwise benign warp. The original chaos gods could be seen as the original daemons that were "born" through mankinds or the eldars society, and being archetypal daemons of change, murder, pleasure and decay they became more and more powerful as these traits became more common in realspace. The Emperor was born or created around the same time as these daemon progenitors and is thereby one and the same. If anything he is the god of science, truth, etc... The gods of chaos gained power through worship or "selling your soul to the devil" while the Emperor receives his power through the thousands of psykers whose souls are fed to him.

So the question of "can chaos corrupt the Emperor?" is misdirected and in truth a misunderstanding of what the Emperor is. He is not a man, he is a god or entity in the same way that Khorne and the others are, and therefore he is as corruptable by the other gods as, say, Khorne can corrupt Nurgle. If the Emperor was just a corruptable superman, the gods are tricksy and could find a way to sway him, but if the Emperor is a deity himself the gods would fear him, which, in previous background, has been stated.

So therefore, the question of can the Emperor be corrupted is inane, it has no context with regards to him, and therefore he is in human terms "unfallible and ultimately incorruptable".

The Anarchist
25-07-2008, 02:13
a human can be in perfecrt health and still produce a corrupt cell or child so.....

also a perfect pearent can still raise a currupt or slightly differnt (and so not perfect child).

hence the emperor can be perfect (and is unless you wish a visit from the inquisition!!!) and not be to blame for his rather naughty children; the Primarchs.

also maybe all the Primarchs were orginaly perfect, but due to having been exposed to the warp when wisked away from Terra where a bit currupted.

just my two cents.

Sekhmet
25-07-2008, 02:40
The primarchs were corrupted in the warp. Then the chaos gods kidnapped them, they did it through the warp without a gellar field. Half the babies became latent evil babies, the others weren't as corrupted (but some still were to a lesser degree, like sanguinius).

Kyrolon
25-07-2008, 03:41
Why does everyone think that warp=corruption?


Because GW has written it that way since the beginning of the Warhammer universe?

Chem-Dog
25-07-2008, 04:12
If you had 2 sons, and one of them decided to be a murderer, does that automatically make you a half-wannabe-murderer?

I don't think this question is even logical.

Well, when you get into chromosomal abnormalities and double recessive traits, it could well mean exactly that ;)
BUT it does depend on exactly what kind of "Murder" your hypothetical son "Decided" to commit.
Murder is an awfully Pejorative term, but I suppose it's still one of society's biggest taboo's so it's understandable that there aren't too many positive (or even neutral) terms for it. I happen to believe there are times when it's acceptable and even preferable, if one of my children found themselves in that situation and decided to do it, I would be immensely proud. But back to the question in hand ;)





"Even the Golden Throne cannot keep the cells of the Emperor's dead body alive forever. Over the milennia the link between his soul and body has become increasingly tenuous. Worse of all, the Powers of Chaos have begun to infiltrate his mind,sowing seeds of doubt, dissolution and fear"

Slap me sideways, as if it's not bad enough that the entire universe is going to collapse in on itself any minute, the Emperor's going to go all chaos :rolleyes:
I personally prefer to treat most of what's said in StD and LatD as piffle these days as most of it has been retconned or simply ignored, no hippy Star Child, no nonsense Illuminati and certainly no stupid Sensei, just bleak hopelessness, despair and utter oblivion :cries:


The primarchs were corrupted in the warp. Then the chaos gods kidnapped them, they did it through the warp without a gellar field. Half the babies became latent evil babies, the others weren't as corrupted (but some still were to a lesser degree, like sanguinius).

More than half if you read between the lines....

Lotan
25-07-2008, 04:34
Because GW has written it that way since the beginning of the Warhammer universe?

Not really, in slaves to darkness it describes the warps early times, a calm see of natural energy. Its the things in the warp not the warp itself that corrupt. And what about the rest of it, criticise one sentence but you've ignored the fact that the question still doesn't relate to the Emperor. This is the one thing I hate about these forums, people are quick enough to flame you if you type one error but they never comment on good stuff, so you end up with an endless cycle of the same comments. Or was I being to high brow for people. If so, sorry, what I meant to say is:

The Emp3r0r iz teh RoXXoR!

Kyrolon
25-07-2008, 06:43
So then, Lotan, name the "good" entities in the warp. Everything that has come out of the warp has been evil. I agree the Emperor is on par with the chaos powers. You claim this makes him incorruptible. I disagree. The warp through the powers it grants corrupts everything it touches once brought into the material universe. The emperor is no exception. In previous posts I've detailed several actions taken by him relating to the warp that are certainly beyond the realm of good or benevolent. Your posts do seem to add up to no more than your last joking line of leet speak.

Believe the imperial propaganda if you want, but the Emperor is no better than Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch now. He may have had a chance to turn back, but he ignored the warnings given to him and believed in his own incorruptibility and that of his sons. The heresy resulted, and now mankind is doomed for his pride. I'd call that corruption. If you don't then you'd make a great commisar. :)

Stezerok
25-07-2008, 07:51
I don't know, this whole debate seems weird. I mean the "Emperor" in his entirety has been left very much a mysterious and unknown character. There really is no way of understanding motive here, and given that no way of determining his "corruption". We can base much on speculation. But there is evidence there to advocate the speculation in either direction...

Personally, I give the Emperor the benefit-of-the-doubt. That he caused Horus and his brothers to be scattered, by letting the Chaos gods open the warp rift. That he caused the civil war of the Astartes by letting Horus and his brother become corrupt, and that he caused Horus to slay him, which would eventually let him become a God. This in turn would finally allow him to gain enough power to destroy the Chaos Gods, and still the warp, uniting humanity, and fending off the Alien invaders.

Depending on motive this, if true, could decide whether he is "corruptible" or not. To me, I see corruption as being allowing lesser motives, generally favoring oneself and oneself only, to guide your own actions, at the expense of others. IF we assume that the Emperors scheme is solely done for his own self-aggrandizement and power-lust, then yes he has sacrificed thousands of lives, and caused the greatest civil war the galaxy has ever known, due to corruption. Should we apply my theory, that all of these things were done to allow him to destroy Chaos, solely for the protection of humanity, then no, he is incorruptible.

One could argue that the "ends do not justify the means" as a way of saying he is a corruptible being. This is a mistake though. The ends don't justify the means if we assume the moral high ground. We're not talking morals here, we're talking motives, and that is the basis of corruption. In no way is what the emperor doing morally right. But given his seemingly sole determination to see humanity live through the night, regardless of morality, what he is doing is justified.

*EDIT* As to the original question of whether or not his "corruptibility" was what lent itself to the downfall of half of the Primarchs, then I would say absolutely. I think someone earlier put it best when they said that the Primarchs are not exact clones, but facets of his being. Each one the perfect counter to the other. When all together (ie the Emperor himself) they balance each other creating the "perfect" being. But as only a single facet, left to their own devices, they have large "chinks in their mental armor" as Horus once put it, that is what Chaos breaks into. As to whether this was a matter of genetics... well that gets largely into Nature versus Nurture, to which argument I say both. I think the genes used for each of the Primarchs allowed their "facets" to develop (Nature), but also some of the Emperors own decisions influenced the way they succumbed to Chaos (Nurture). I think examples of the Emperors decisions would be his verdict of Magnus, which ostracized him and turned him to Tzeentch, along with the initial recovery of Angron (if I remember correctly, Angron wanted to stay and fight with the people he liberated correct?).

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Deus Mechanicus
25-07-2008, 07:57
Codex: Chaos Emperor
Yes please.

Stezerok
25-07-2008, 08:05
Codex: Chaos Emperor
Yes please.

dude... I'm down for a Codex: Custodes (sp?). That'd be so sick...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Lotan
25-07-2008, 17:23
So then, Lotan, name the "good" entities in the warp. Everything that has come out of the warp has been evil. I agree the Emperor is on par with the chaos powers. You claim this makes him incorruptible. I disagree. The warp through the powers it grants corrupts everything it touches once brought into the material universe. The emperor is no exception. In previous posts I've detailed several actions taken by him relating to the warp that are certainly beyond the realm of good or benevolent. Your posts do seem to add up to no more than your last joking line of leet speak.

Believe the imperial propaganda if you want, but the Emperor is no better than Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch now. He may have had a chance to turn back, but he ignored the warnings given to him and believed in his own incorruptibility and that of his sons. The heresy resulted, and now mankind is doomed for his pride. I'd call that corruption. If you don't then you'd make a great commisar. :)

Yes the Emperor is good and incorruptable....Nothing good has come out of the warp because as I stated, it is a mirror of the human and eldar psyche, and trust me, theres a lot more lust greed hatred etc than there is love in this world. The emperor is a reflection of all that is good. Yes some actions could be deemed evil. But killing a thousand a day to save billions of lives is not evil. If I was told to kill one person to save 100 I would, even if I knew or loved that person and I wouldn't expect the press to call me evil for it, I'd expect the sypathy and compassion from people because they know what it must have been like to carry out that action, to make a sacrifice. Call me a commisar or whatever, good and evil are purely subjective, and if you don't believe so then you truly are naive.

Oh yeah, and the statement that the emperor believed his sons to be incorruptable is complete and utter bs, if he did then why did he ban magnus from sorcery, if he was arrogant enough to believe him and his sons to be untouchable then he would have allowed magnus to use his magic.

Hierarch
25-07-2008, 19:36
dude... I'm down for a Codex: Custodes (sp?). That'd be so sick...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Yes that would be sick. I saw the conversions on them and they look pretty awesome. As soon as I saw them I asked a GW employee if there would be any chance of them coming out with something along the lines of Adeptus Custodes. I made silent cries in my head as soon as he said no... :(

Rydmend
25-07-2008, 20:54
The Emperors soul was forged in the warp....the shamans of old united thier souls so they could reincarnate into the immortal emperor to guide and protect mankind.....he is not human if his soul was made in the warp and not corruptible.

His soul definatly has more power than all of the chaos gods as well, his mind alone holds the warpgates located on terra closed. He also uses his mind to focus has a huge beacon of light that all of humanity uses for navigation this beacon cuts right through the center of the warp (the domain of the choas gods) and they can do nothing about it.

The chas gods are at thier strongest inside the warp. If a being in the material realm (the emperor) has the power to influence the entire realm of warpspace so much so that even the chaos gods can't do a damn thing about it.....I would say he is more powerful.

So you are trying to tell me that the chaos gods, who can't even succeed at stopping the emporer from guiding the astronmicon through their own back yard, can corrupt him? Nope.

TheLionReturns
25-07-2008, 21:01
I have to say I agree with Lotan here. I do not see the warp as inherently evil and a source of corruption. The corruptors are the entities that dwell in the warp, which are in turn a product of the emotions of the various sentient races. In a way humans are corrupted by their own nature, their own anger for example. This anger spawns the warp entities that try to promote this emotion to feed off it. They feed by promoting excess of this type of emotion in those with unbalanced personalities.

As per my previous post I feel the Enperor is portrayed as the ultimate balanced personality being the pinicle of humanity. In this sense he becomes incorruptible. Thats not to say that the Chaos gods can't whisper and try to corrupt, only that the Emperor has the strength of character to overcome this.

One further point is that being incorruptible does not equal good, just your own man if you will. Oh and benign warp entities, how about the Watchers?

Kyrolon
25-07-2008, 21:21
If the warp mirrors human emotions then there should also be goodness and love as well. They do exist you know. Instead it only seems to mirror the negative emotions. As for the watchers...how do we know they are benign? As far as I know we don't know any of their motives yet. If anything Descent of Angels made them seem darker than ever.

It's amazing how good the imperial propaganda machine is.

As for the symbiosis of Man and Warp, the argument then devolves to the chicken and the egg. Man corrupts the warp, but those that draw on that negative power are corrupted by it. It's cyclical in nature. Maybe the warp wasn't evil once, but it is now.

In regard to the killing 1 to save 100 argument. It's easy to say so, but harder to do, and leads to more and more excesses. That's corruption. If it's not, then the Tau really are the good guys of 40K, because everything they do is for the greater good, which by Lotan's definition is all OK. Might makes right and all that.

I don't think any one of us living in a world like that would call it incorruptible. Since it's the Emperor's prefered system, I'd say he's about as evil as it gets. If he was good once, well what changed. I'd say it was his use of the warp that changed him. Others obviously disagree, and despite the evidence provided the only thing they can claim amounts to...

But he's the EMPEROR!

Drachenfell
25-07-2008, 21:39
The warp does not make someone evil. As a result you're claiming every psyker in the 40k verse is corrupted by chaos, which is a false hood. This has never been endorsed by GW. The warp is a well of energy. A sea. It can be rough it can be calm. And it is inhabited by terrible and beautiful things.

Unfortunately in a universe that is as GRIMDARK as 40k the love you get is no where near the blood, depravity, decay and manipulation there. Why are there no gods of love? Because it takes vast amounts of psychic emotional influx into the warp to come close to creating a god. And in this universe there simply isn't enough to make one of 'love' I'm afraid. The closest you'll get is the Emperor.

And Kyrolon. You're thining of it in the wrong context. It's not 1 to save a 100. It's 1 to save a billion. With those odds you bet your life I'd justify it. That is not excess that is necessity. If those who do give their lives (Though it is a slow process numbering months rather than a big chopping block) they power the astronomicon which without mankind would not be able to traverse the stars as they do now. Far more would die on the journeys then at the destinations! There is not corruption in that. And quite frankly I would gladly give my life it it meant even one person would live in my stead let alone coming to the number of billions.

The Emperor's plan was working prior to the Heresy. The chaos gods feared him for his knowledge of them and his knowledge of how to defeat them. As the Emperor was unable to lead mankind in a direct manner anymore the High Lords had to interpret his will as best they could. Unfortunately they're getting it wrong. But the High Lords and everything else is just a quick fix. Just a waiting game. I don't think they're looking to save the Imperium. They don't have to. They just need to keep themselves alive long enough till the Emperor get's up again.

Kryolon. You've provided no evidence to your statements. Yes the warp is a mirror. And it mirror's good as well as bad. Unfortunately in this universe pretty much everything that's going on is bad. That doesn't mean the warp corrupts. It simply means that everything else is pretty ****ed up.

Rombo Baak
25-07-2008, 23:24
If the warp did corrupt everybody the whole ork race would be corrupted to the bone. The true uncorruptible powers in the warp are Gork and Mork.

According to the old ork books, weirdboyz usually don't get possesed but when they do the poor demon is sucked and trapped inside them. It doesn't have any control over the weirdboy but the ork becomes incredibly powerful.

There you have the best two examples that the warp is not evil per se. Of course orks and their gods are crazy psicopaths, but not evil. I think they are the only guys in WH40K that don't have any evil in their hearts. They just have an alien sense of humour.

wingedserpant
26-07-2008, 00:05
If the warp mirrors human emotions then there should also be goodness and love as well. They do exist you know. Instead it only seems to mirror the negative emotions. As for the watchers...how do we know they are benign? As far as I know we don't know any of their motives yet. If anything Descent of Angels made them seem darker than ever.

It's amazing how good the imperial propaganda machine is.

As for the symbiosis of Man and Warp, the argument then devolves to the chicken and the egg. Man corrupts the warp, but those that draw on that negative power are corrupted by it. It's cyclical in nature. Maybe the warp wasn't evil once, but it is now.

In regard to the killing 1 to save 100 argument. It's easy to say so, but harder to do, and leads to more and more excesses. That's corruption. If it's not, then the Tau really are the good guys of 40K, because everything they do is for the greater good, which by Lotan's definition is all OK. Might makes right and all that.

I don't think any one of us living in a world like that would call it incorruptible. Since it's the Emperor's prefered system, I'd say he's about as evil as it gets. If he was good once, well what changed. I'd say it was his use of the warp that changed him. Others obviously disagree, and despite the evidence provided the only thing they can claim amounts to...

But he's the EMPEROR!

Didn't the Emperor dispise the idea of him being worshiped as a God. And doesn't the new rule book say that he is forever silent. He has no control over his Empire. He is just doing some phycic jive to keep it from being destroyed.

Kyrolon
26-07-2008, 00:21
If the emperor despised being worshipped, then why allow it? Sure, he chastised the Word Bearers once, but as I pointed out in earlier posts, he crushed every other religion in human space, and then granted miracles to people who prayed to him (See the first 3 Horus Heresy books for ref). These are the actions of a god.

As for lack of evidence Drachenfels, please read my earlier posts. The Emperor has toyed with warp gates, greated warp weapons (Spear of Russ, Soulspear) and set himself up as a god (see above) despite denying it to the primarchs. There was a good bit of truth in the things the chaos powers used to seduce and make Horus jealous of the Emperor.

If you claim psykers are not corrupted by the warp, then why does the Imperium terminate all they find except for the few they make into Inquisitors? Why have witch hunters if witches are no more evil than any other man? It's not like they find the occasional good witch and say "oh, you're ok then."

Finally, I didn't pick the 1 for 100 number, I was replying to Lotan's example. There is also a big distinction between a person voluntarily ginving their life for the greater good, and a whole group of people being rounded up and killed involuntarily for the same reason. Even the Elder races see the warp as a corrupting influence. The other Eldar don't trust Altansar all that much because it was in the Eye of Terror. Ulthwe is looked at kind of sideways because of their excessive number of psykers. If the warp doesn't corrupt people then why this caution?

I think the rest of you are being a little naive and seeing the imperial slant as the Truth. If you look at the facts they are otherwise. There are no good guys in 40k with the possible exception of individuals within each race. The Emperor is not incorruptible as he is already as corrupt as any chaos god. "For the good of humanity" is a convienient excuse. It's obvious I will not convince the rest of you otherwise though, so I will stop trying. Good job, the Commissars are proud of you. :)

PseudoK
26-07-2008, 00:21
Whether the Emperor can be corrupted, I think not. When he fought Horus, he sent all four Chaos Gods in Horus's body fleeing when he actually brought his power to bear; to say that they can in turn corrupt him seems a bit suspect.

Is he perfect or even remotely good? Hell no. His arrogance prevented him from seeing his sons betraying him or listening to Eldrad, and he murdered almost indiscriminately when he was alive. The Emperor puts Stalin and the like (I'd directly compare him to Hitler, but I'd lose the debate) to shame.

In response to the "kill one to save a billion" discussion, if you're going to use that logic, you need to realize that the existence of the human race in 40K has done far more harm than good. From where I'm sitting, extinction of mankind or the resurrection of the Emperor would be the only thing that could save the 40K universe from inevitable rule from demons. And as I've stated above, resurrection of the Emperor would just lead to arrogant, mass genocide.

Punchline: Damn near everything in 40K is malevolent, including the Emperor.

Stezerok
26-07-2008, 00:24
It's amazing how good the imperial propaganda machine is.

you've said this a few times, but it still really doesn't make any sense... we're not dealing with politicians and lobbyists here... we're talking about a fictional story...


As for the symbiosis of Man and Warp, the argument then devolves to the chicken and the egg. Man corrupts the warp, but those that draw on that negative power are corrupted by it. It's cyclical in nature. Maybe the warp wasn't evil once, but it is now.

no. It is cyclic. This doesn't mean however that the Warp is evil. The warp is not a moral/conscious being. The Warp is a thing, and characterizing it as having human traits such as "evil" or "corrupt" is personification at it's best...

They say Power corrupts, Absolute Power corrupts absolutely. This does not mean that Power is evil. It simply means that those who use it wisely, are those who hold themselves to higher moral standards than others. The Warp is power. That is why it "corrupts". Though in reality "it" isn't doing anything, its just the person wielding it, falling to their lesser nature.


In regard to the killing 1 to save 100 argument. It's easy to say so, but harder to do, and leads to more and more excesses. That's corruption. If it's not, then the Tau really are the good guys of 40K, because everything they do is for the greater good, which by Lotan's definition is all OK. Might makes right and all that.

Again. Look to my post that you seem to have glanced over. We're not talking about morality here. Corruption/non-corruption are not the same as amorality/morality. They may run along the same vein, but they are not the same. The Emperor chooses the lesser of two evils in order to steer humanity clear of chaos and destruction. There is nothing corrupt about it.

When Truman made the decision to drop the Atomic Bomb on Japan. He wasn't too happy about deciding to annihilate thousands of people in a single instant. But he chose to do it to save the lives of possibly thousands more. We can debate the moral and ethical issues with that decision all day, and I won't say whether I agree or disagree with the decision, but we can't say that it was evidence that Truman was corrupt.


I don't think any one of us living in a world like that would call it incorruptible. Since it's the Emperor's prefered system, I'd say he's about as evil as it gets. If he was good once, well what changed. I'd say it was his use of the warp that changed him. Others obviously disagree, and despite the evidence provided the only thing they can claim amounts to...

But he's the EMPEROR!

This is hardly the case, as you can look to both this post, and the previous one as to the "evidence". But in regards to our claim that: "but he's the Emperor" the argument could easily be made about your claim that we're all under the influence of the "Imperial Propaganda Machine." :rolleyes:

EMPEROR '08! Because he's not corrupt! :D
-Stezerok

TheLionReturns
26-07-2008, 01:04
I think the rest of you are being a little naive and seeing the imperial slant as the Truth. If you look at the facts they are otherwise. There are no good guys in 40k with the possible exception of individuals within each race. The Emperor is not incorruptible as he is already as corrupt as any chaos god. "For the good of humanity" is a convienient excuse. It's obvious I will not convince the rest of you otherwise though, so I will stop trying. Good job, the Commissars are proud of you. :)

Reading your post I feel perhaps we are using different definitions of corruption. When I suggest that the Emperor is incorruptible I do not suggest he is a good guy. As is often said there are no good guys in 40K and to be honest the people of the Imperium are probably some of the worst.

Corruption is often tied up with notions of dishonesty, depravity and other negative traits. This is, however, how we see it manifest rather than the actual process of corruption itself (ie it is the end result not the process). At its core corruption is a change for the worst from an original path to another, through the intervention of a malevolent third party. Whether the Emperor is a good guy or a bad guy is largely irrelevant. I personally fall on the side of him being a bit of a bad guy. Galaxy wide crusades of conquest giving the option of join us or die is not really nice in my book. The question is whether a malevolent third party can get the Emperor to change his course.

I personally believe that the fluff supports the idea that the Emperor is incorruptible. As I have mentioned before he is held up as the perfect human and therefore is devoid of the psychological flaws that allow others to be corrupted. This incorruptibility does not change the fact that horrors are committed in his name and that he has been complicit in other horrors. The incorruptibility simply means that these horrors are his own responsibility and cannot be attributed to the powers of chaos.

Rombo Baak
26-07-2008, 02:51
That's exactly my point of view, warp corruption happens when daemons, gods and other entities from the warp get to control or at the very least influence how a phisical being acts.

Some creatures can't be influenced by warp beings because they don't have a connection to the warp. Necrons, taus, human blanks...

Orks can't be influenced because they are... well, orks... They can't even control themselves.

It seems that you need first to have a connection to the warp wich the emperor has. Then you need to have some control upon your own actions, wich I guess the emperor has too. So in the end it will be a question of willpower and inteligence. And so far every clue that I remember about the emperor points to him being more inteligent than any human ever before, so tricking him should be very difficult if not impossible. I seriously doubt Khorne has a high IQ. And if Tzeenth was inteligent enough to trick him I guess that would have happened long before his internment in the golden throne. The same applies to Slaanesh, if the emperor could be corrupted by offerings of sex, drugs and rock and roll it would have happened a long time ago.

By the way, psikers are hunted down in the empire not just because they can get in contact with daemons and may be stupid or weak to make deals with them or be tricked. Daemons can use an untrained psiker as a gate to manifest in the phisic world. That's why only the gifted and trained psikers are allowed to live.

Pundabaya
26-07-2008, 02:52
I thought that the main reason that the traitor rimarchs fell to chaos wasn't because they were tainted by the Chaos gods when they were babies, but because they were each raised to be human beings, rather than superhuman perfection.

The chaos gods didn't need to taint them, like the Emperor wouldn't have noticed when he found them. No, they just allowed them to learn greed, arrogance, jealousy, anger from their surrogate families. I don't think the Emperor got this concept. He was essentially aware of what he was from birth, and didn't let negative emotions affect him (they still did, but not as much). He thought that the Primarchs were the same, and the idea that they weren't the perfect creatures he had designed passed him completely by.

Look at what happened to Magnus. Magnus warned the Emperor that Horus was going to betray him, and the Emperor both didn't believe him, but set the Space Wolves after him.

Now, if I was the Emperor, I'd have sent someone to keep tabs on both of them, and gather evidence, before using force.

From the Emperor's point of view, Horus was perfect. Magnus had displayed his imperfection by using proscribed powers, it doesn't take a massive leap to see his warning as jealousy, another imperfection. To the Emperor, imperfection equalled taint in respect to the Primarchs, because they were perfect in all ways. His mindset led him to believe that Magnus was tainted, and Horus was not, when the reverse was true.

Obviously, the Emperor was foolish, even the loyal Primarchs showed tons of imperfections... (see Russ L. and El'Johnson L. kicking 7 tonnes of crap out of each other after a successful operation...)

Rombo Baak
26-07-2008, 03:07
C'mon! Even the lowliest eldar farseer can predict the future and the most potent psiker mankind has ever seen couldn't see it? A guy who was the greatest military mind, the greatest genetic engineer, a guy that can perform miracles, a guy that forged the greatest empire the galaxy has ever seen? I'm sure the emperor knew from the beginning that any human being, even his sons, could be tainted with promises of power and all the other things chaos gods can offer. He just didn't see it happening, and it took the combined might of the four chaos gods and a lot of luck for Horus to pull off his stunt.

Pundabaya
26-07-2008, 03:21
Well, that'd be some trick. The Emperor being born about 10,000 years before the Chaos Gods. If he could see the future, he'd have known exactly what would happen before the Chaos gods even existed.

Jon_Irenicus
26-07-2008, 03:35
If the emperor despised being worshipped, then why allow it? Sure, he chastised the Word Bearers once, but as I pointed out in earlier posts, he crushed every other religion in human space, and then granted miracles to people who prayed to him (See the first 3 Horus Heresy books for ref). These are the actions of a god.

He crushed religions, I can fathom, because worshipping the wrong causes can be really bad. Jesus performed miracles too, and it gave people hope (and also can bring about the best in us), so I'm thinking he did it for morale's sake.

I don't know the extent of it, but IMHO if the Horus Heresy books are the same stuff that Dan Abnett (I don't know if he wrote that one, though) put into Eisenhorn, there are a lot of liberties taken with the fluff that constitutes the 40k universe, some of which even contradictory. So, I'd probably see them as good generic sci-fi novels rather than what I'd accept as Warhammer fluff - most of which for me came from 2nd ed. books and it's wonderful short stories. But this last paragrah is beyond the point...


As for lack of evidence Drachenfels, please read my earlier posts. The Emperor has toyed with warp gates, greated warp weapons (Spear of Russ, Soulspear) and set himself up as a god (see above) despite denying it to the primarchs. There was a good bit of truth in the things the chaos powers used to seduce and make Horus jealous of the Emperor.

Same with some of the Eldar weapons, like the Talismans of Vaul. The thing is, these warp-forged items aren't corrupt per se, as in the warp fuels a lot of things, but like psykers can be used as portals for daemons so could these items. So, they can't leave it in the hands of any except for the most strong willed individuals or entities.


If you claim psykers are not corrupted by the warp, then why does the Imperium terminate all they find except for the few they make into Inquisitors? Why have witch hunters if witches are no more evil than any other man? It's not like they find the occasional good witch and say "oh, you're ok then."

They exterminate them for two reasons. They need the power for the Light, and because a rogue psyker can't shut his mind from the warp, thus endangering not only himself but sometimes even whole planets. Instead of trying a more "human" approach, they do what they must for the sake of many.


Finally, I didn't pick the 1 for 100 number, I was replying to Lotan's example. There is also a big distinction between a person voluntarily ginving their life for the greater good, and a whole group of people being rounded up and killed involuntarily for the same reason. Even the Elder races see the warp as a corrupting influence. The other Eldar don't trust Altansar all that much because it was in the Eye of Terror. Ulthwe is looked at kind of sideways because of their excessive number of psykers. If the warp doesn't corrupt people then why this caution?

Spending time in the swirling maelstrom that is the Eye is bound to make you... different. Especially because it's a playing ground for daemons: the other eldar were afraid because they don't know and don't want to see what the Altansar craftworlders did to themselves in order to survive in that hell. If I may point out, the only known way to survive in the Eye is by making a pact with the entities that inhabit it.


I think the rest of you are being a little naive and seeing the imperial slant as the Truth. If you look at the facts they are otherwise. There are no good guys in 40k with the possible exception of individuals within each race. The Emperor is not incorruptible as he is already as corrupt as any chaos god. "For the good of humanity" is a convienient excuse. It's obvious I will not convince the rest of you otherwise though, so I will stop trying. Good job, the Commissars are proud of you. :)

I think you're the one being naive. You're taking the "black, Grey and White" approach, but applying it wrongly. Analyzing the Imperium shows that there's much injustice going on but the fact is that it's stayed together, whereas as individual systems they wouldn't survive.
If you want to think about corruption, think about Horus. The Emperor did what he had to do. Horus did what he wanted for power, for the glory of chaos, whereas what the Emperor did was because of the Imperium. He was intrinsicaly connected to it, and the power of one was the power of another.

If he just wanted to play dirty I'm pretty sure he would have ditched mankind or at least take everyone's free will, which he didn't. He even forgave Magnus for playing with sorcery the first time around and made it very clear he wouldn't stand for it any longer. His failings were human, because he was also that.

Rombo Baak
26-07-2008, 03:37
What are you talking about? Slaneesh brought the end of the Eldar empire before the humans even came down from the trees. The Necrons locked themselves inside their tombs because chaos was too strong for them to deal with! It was back then when the old ones were losing the war against the Necrons when they began to develope the psychic powers of lesser races and it leaded to warp storms all around the galaxy and chaos rampaging all around. Humans didn't create the chaos gods, unless the fluff has changed a lot since the original chaos books, wich I bougth a long time ago when they were first released.

Pundabaya
26-07-2008, 03:45
IIRC, the Emperor was born/created/whatever in 8000 BC, The chaos gods didn't come about till the Middle Ages. That's going from The Lost and the Damned. Slaanesh wasn't born till the 29th Millenium.

Rombo Baak
26-07-2008, 03:51
You got me wondering... Whats the date of birth for Gork and Mork then?

Pundabaya
26-07-2008, 05:15
Who knows? Orks don't go in for writing stuff down, but its probably a while after the Old Ones disappeared, but I'm guessing it depends on how quickly the Brain Boyz degenerated. And the state of the Warp in that timeframe.

Possibly vastly older than the human race, though.