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jpf1982
24-07-2008, 11:36
So we want to make an O&G Competetive list. I'm not 100% sure on how to do to this. I've played them for almost 1 year now which isn't near as much time as some people have put in; but hey everyone else is fighitng tooth and nail about how it's undoable. I say we at least try our best. Perhaps with the combined waaagh energy of every O&G general on here we can do something right.

Let's start out and set a target of 1850-2000 points. What I think we should start with is discussing the absolute neccessities of the army that must be in a list reguardless of size. I'm talking troops. Blocks; big blocks. Mayhaps somewhere in the range of 2-3 blocks of 30 orcs 6 wide and 5 deep with FC, shields. An absolute is some sort of fast cav; say 2 blocks minimum of 6 spider or wolf riders. Obviously an orc general benefits the list best and if your going to 2k then you can even get a warboss for the boost of +1 leadership.

I don't have my book with me but if your looking at what I've just put up as a core of a list then I'm pretty sure it's still under 1k points.

3 units of 30 Orc Boyz, FC, Shield
2 units of 6 spider or wolf riders, musician

Come on people; everybody complains; let's do something about it instead of being counter-productive.

Gobbo Lord
24-07-2008, 12:18
I would say 25 orc boyz is a better number. 25 with Choppas, Light Armour, shields and full command are 180 points. So three units would be 540 points, a good core.

Wolf riders would have to be units of 5 with a musician. GIve one unit spears and one short bows making them 71 points per unit. I think wolves are better than spiders as their increased movement is more usefull in Warhammer. There often isnt enough terrain to warrant taking spider riders.

warlord hack'a
24-07-2008, 12:43
spear armed svg orcs, 2 blocks of Ni go each with 2 or 3 fanatics, BO warboss and BO BSB with spirit totem, 2 orc boar chariots, 2 chukkas and a lobba or 4 chukkas, one/two doomdiver(s), at least three units of fast cav, wolves and spiders.

that's my basic list, you just got to love svg orcs with spears or a small unit of svg orcs with boss and extra choppa: a non-character model dishing out 4 ws4 S5 attacks!

Mid'ean
24-07-2008, 12:56
If you really want to go down this road I would suggest to go here:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=17624&st=0

We spent a lot of time on DA WARPATH going over this exact topic for 2K, 2.25K and 2.5 K list......:D

Frankly
24-07-2008, 13:18
I would say 25 orc boyz is a better number. 25 with Choppas, Light Armour, shields and full command are 180 points. So three units would be 540 points, a good core.

Wolf riders would have to be units of 5 with a musician. GIve one unit spears and one short bows making them 71 points per unit. I think wolves are better than spiders as their increased movement is more usefull in Warhammer. There often isnt enough terrain to warrant taking spider riders.


yeah, I like this.

I think this is where the orcs strengths is, in its core choices value for money and the ability to build a strong core to any armylist.

My main ork opponent runs a ork tournament list that is basically core choices, well supported by special choices plus the generals L.d. plus BSB.

jpf1982
24-07-2008, 13:33
Okay so for now we got 3 units of 25 orc boys, shields, fc and 2 or 3 units of 5 wolf riders some with shortbows and some without. What about specials then? I'm partial to rock lobba's because even taken in fours my chukka's never seem to hit anything. What about squigs or b.orcs? Of course then you have our chariots here too. We have so many special choices it really makes it difficult to figure out what to take.

Conotor
24-07-2008, 13:46
IMO, orcs are near the top in terms of power. If u want a chesy list, 8 bolters and 10 fanatics coming out of netters should do it.

Frogczar
24-07-2008, 13:49
I'm a new player and I have been reading (and listening to) as much as I can find about playing Orcs better. A recent podcast from "Podhammer" discussed playing Orcs more competitively. The feeling from the Orc general in the interview was that reducing the effect of Animosity is the most important thing to making a list competitive.

He mentioned taking as many units that don't suffer animosity as possible. Units such as Chariots, War machines, Giants, Trolls, Black Orcs and so forth.

He also mentioned that having terror-causing units is important because there are so many terror and fear-causing armies floating around at tournaments these days. That means trying to fit in a Wyvern and/or a Giant into a list, possibly both or more.

I agree that the core should consist of solid blocks of Orc boyz. I also think they should all be led by Black Orc Bosses so that Quell animosity takes effect.

Truthfully, an army should always have some units that can't get rid of animosity such as fast cavalry, but the point is to reduce the effect animosity has on your army.

-Frog

winkypinky
24-07-2008, 13:55
Why all this nonsence about orcs?

Dosnt we all know that the gobbos will rule supreme, if just someone gives them a chance.
Like:

Skarsnik
1 Blorc bsb (with extra DD banner)
2*Ng shamans

3*30 Ng's: Hw, shield, full com. 1-3 fanatics
2*20 Ng's: Bows, musician, 3 fanatics
3*6 Wolfriders: musician.

8 spearchukkas.

2 Giants.

It is brutal to play against. A lot of shooting (8 bolts a turn) to take down most things that your basic gobbos cant beat with static CR. And you have enough fanatics to never have to worry about cavalry flanking you.

(I do not have the book, but I could imagine that it would be around 2k)

sephiroth87
24-07-2008, 14:01
There are 3 ways to build a competitive list with the orcs that I've found:

1. Take the wyvern list. Black orc warboss on wyvern and the rest of the army is high leadership or immune to psych so that you don't have leadership issues. Infantry might include squig herd, black orcs, and 25 man orc unit with BSB toting mork's spirit totem. You will see a character on a chariot or two and lots of supporting units like wolves/spiders.

2. Take a balanced list with your general in the middle. This is the most common list that I see from people trying to win. Black orc Warboss on boar, Black orc bigboss on boar toting the mork's totem, both of them in orc units. A unit or two of minimum sized night gobbo units toting fanatics, a couple of spear chukkas, a chariot or two, 3 5 man units of fast cavalry, and a doom diver or two.

3. The shooty list from hell. 8 bolt throwers, two doom divers, about 10 fanatics, and skarsnik backing up several orc and goblin mages. I'm not such a fan of this list but some people like it.

Gobbo Lord
24-07-2008, 14:29
I find an orc Boar Chariot a must to back up my infantry. I have converted one with three crew as 5 points for an extra strength four attack on the charge isnt so bad.

warlord hack'a
24-07-2008, 14:44
I say again: spear armed svg orcs! fear or terror or other orc units fleeing or shooting casualties will not bother them and when they reach combat they are a meat mincer..

kaulem
24-07-2008, 15:18
Here the list I like to use the most, and it's been working very well against most lists (though I have some issues vs deamons)

2x 25 orcs FC, sheilds
2x 20 night goblins fc, 2 fanatics, bows (yes bows, see explanation later)
1x 20 black orcs FC, shields
2 to 4 units of 5 or 6 fast cav (no option other then musicians)

1 Black orc warboss on boar in orcs,

1 Black orc bsb on boar in orcs,

the black orcs don't need baby sitting but stay near the BSB

the night gobbos have bows but are ranked 5 wide anyways, as the bows are only there in case my opponnent fields a large target, then all 20 gobbos get the fire. and if my 2 units are close together, then thats 40 shots.

After that, it's fill in the blanks depending of my opponent and my mood.

jpf1982
24-07-2008, 15:44
How do people feel about savage orc boar boyz? I know they are about the only worthy boar taking stuff; but with just spear option they are relatively cheap only like 120ish i think and that's 10 S5 attacks on the charge. If they survive of course.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
24-07-2008, 16:09
Hello guys,

well since you want a good greenskin list, I will post mine here. I played lots of games with it and currently I'm made at least the 8th place from or league( 40 people started in it), next weekend I can make it to the last 4 and competetion is tough cause we can win a battalion box and a cup. Also played 2 tournies with it and got 2 times 10th on 50+ people and in those days I still hadn't figured out how to use the list to its full potential.

Lords
Orc Great shaman lv4, scroll, 245pts

Heroes
Goblin shaman lv2, scroll, chariot 175pts
Goblin big boss, chariot, light armour, shield, Ulag's akrit axe, itty ring 144pts
Goblin big boss, chariot, light armour, shield, spear, shaga's screaming sword 149

Core
24 Orcs, full command, shield 174pts
21 Night goblins, musician,short bows 2 fanatic's 117pts
21 Night goblins, musician, 2 fanatic's 117pts
21 Night goblins, musician, 2 fanatic's 117pts

5 wolfriders, spears, musician 71pts
5 wolfriders, spears, musician 71pts
5 spiderriders, musician 71pts

Special
2 spear chukka's 70pts
2 spear chukka's 70pts
3 squiq teams( 9squiqs, 6 herders)
5 savage pig'uns, spear, shield 165pts

Rare
Doomdiver 80pts
Doomdiver 80pts

Models 150
Pd: 8+2 boundspells
Dd: 5+2scrolls

Mid'ean
25-07-2008, 12:46
There is a really good thread that was done about this topic on the DA WARPATH a couple months back. We did a 2k, 2.25K and a 2.5K list. Lots of really good info and debates over what core, special and rare units to take.

Frogczar
25-07-2008, 15:02
There is a really good thread that was done about this topic on the DA WARPATH a couple months back. We did a 2k, 2.25K and a 2.5K list. Lots of really good info and debates over what core, special and rare units to take.

Could you post a link to the thread?

-Frog

Mid'ean
25-07-2008, 15:53
If it's GREEN and MEAN you can find it here!!!

http://z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=17624

Mozzamanx
25-07-2008, 16:19
Greenies do have some stellar choices, most of the problems just stem from animosity:

- Horn of Urgok. I honestly don't know why this isn't in every list, it's absolutely incredible for 40pts. +1 Leadership for your army, and -1 for the enemies. Hells yeah!
- Nibbla's Itty ring. Very very nice, especially against Elves.
- Magic spam. Goblin magic is very dangerous, but some of their spells are great, and easily 1 of the best lores in the game. All 6's count as 1's? No killing blow, poison or irresistible force for you. Initiative test or D6 str10 hits? Bye bye monsters.

Of course, there's always the Spear Chukka/Fanatic spam, which everybody loves so much.

Grinloc
25-07-2008, 19:13
The Horn of Urgok is rarely taken since MR of any level is pretty widespread nowadays. Since it affects the whole battlefield it is often easily dispelled.

jpf1982
25-07-2008, 20:11
my big issue with the horn is it only lasts for your turn and it goes off in magic phase; so it doesn't help you charge or recieve the enemy charge in their turn; 40 points wasted to me...

just my opinion

Shamfrit
25-07-2008, 20:19
Here's an 'out there' idea...

At the start of the turn, roll 1d6 for each unit that is affected by animosity, and then distribute rolls of 1 and 6 to the unit you choose.

You could explain this fluff wise by having Da Boss shout and bark orders where he needs it most, leaving the weaker less needed and vital units (or those about to be charge to use as bait) to bicker amongst themselves (caus' da boss is distracted!)

Adds an interesting tactical edge to the army, because you've got to choose which units don't move, and which get the extra movement. I might try it like this actually...*Runs off.* In this case I'd remove Animosity immunity from the army...

DV8
25-07-2008, 21:01
Here's an 'out there' idea...

At the start of the turn, roll 1d6 for each unit that is affected by animosity, and then distribute rolls of 1 and 6 to the unit you choose.

You could explain this fluff wise by having Da Boss shout and bark orders where he needs it most, leaving the weaker less needed and vital units (or those about to be charge to use as bait) to bicker amongst themselves (caus' da boss is distracted!)

Adds an interesting tactical edge to the army, because you've got to choose which units don't move, and which get the extra movement. I might try it like this actually...*Runs off.* In this case I'd remove Animosity immunity from the army...

That's called cheating.

The way Animosity works, and should be done, pick a unit, roll a D6. 1, they squabble. 6, the run forward. Move on to the next unit, roll a D6. Continue until you've rolled for each unit.

If you tried the way you suggested, I'd clock you a new one and find a new opponent.


DV8

Shamfrit
25-07-2008, 21:09
I was suggesting it as a way of fixing the rule. Do you honestly think I'd do this and pass it off as the way the current rule worked?

I have also realised this is in the wrong 'Orcs Suck' thread, but it still stands.

jpf1982
25-07-2008, 21:10
Yeah that'd be interesting; but it's totally not written that way at all.

Shamfrit
25-07-2008, 21:13
Yeah that'd be interesting; but it's totally not written that way at all.]

I know I know. I'm going to try it as a House Rule though.

sephiroth87
25-07-2008, 21:24
Calling a house rule cheating looks...a little like overreacting. I'm not sure that you understood that Shamfrit was making a suggestion for fixing a problem. My gaming group makes house rules all the time and as long as there's local consensus and we're playing each other, no one cares.

If you've ever clocked any opponent during a game, you probably need a new hobby... or you could be a victim of anonymous internet blowhard syndrome (AIBS).

Shamfrit
25-07-2008, 21:25
Calling a house rule cheating looks...a little like overreacting. I'm not sure that you understood that it was a suggestion for fixing a problem. My gaming group makes house rules all the time and as long as there's local consensus and we're playing each other, no one cares.

If you've ever clocked any opponent during a game, you probably need a new hobby... or you could be a victim of anonymous internet blowhard syndrome (AIBS).

Yeah, that's what I wanted to say Sephiroth, thank you lol. Aibs...rofl, I like it :D

jpf1982
25-07-2008, 22:26
I got no problem with house rules; just my area doesn't use them. The people here attend large scale GT's on both the GW and Indie circuit pretty often; so we go strictly by the books.

Shamfrit
25-07-2008, 22:39
I got no problem with house rules; just my area doesn't use them. The people here attend large scale GT's on both the GW and Indie circuit pretty often; so we go strictly by the books.

I think the main way to make Greenskins Da Fighty Gits is to actually take them to tournaments, otherwise, how are improvements going to be made? If 10 out of 100 players instead of 2 take Greenskins to a GT, suddenly - stats shoot up.

jpf1982
25-07-2008, 22:46
Yeah... I think that a lot of players just get demoralized very quickly with the greenskins. You compare them to the powerbuilds of VC and Demons that smack the crud out of us and I don't think you can make a powerbuild of orcs. I mean I know we can still win; but there is no power list that can defeat all with impunity like the other armies.

DV8
25-07-2008, 23:51
I just misinterpreted. My understanding was that Shamfrit was suggesting that Animosity should be played that way, as opposed to some sort of house rule change. My mistake.

And no, I've never clocked an opponent during a game. But I have packed up and left, if I really don't feel like playing with an opponent that just sucks the fun out of the game.


DV8

Grom Hellscream
08-08-2008, 03:15
really animosity isn't THAT bad.... yes it sucks, yes it can lose you games...
but it wins them too....
and you can get used to having a couple units do differently than you expected - but the enemy can't. its SO confusing for them.

Urgat
08-08-2008, 08:54
I was suggesting it as a way of fixing the rule. Do you honestly think I'd do this and pass it off as the way the current rule worked?

I have also realised this is in the wrong 'Orcs Suck' thread, but it still stands.

You haven't realised it's not an "orcs sucks" thread though, it's a "how to make a cheesy list with orcs?" thread :p
I believe they've been given already, the cheasy lists, anyway.

Da GoBBo
08-08-2008, 08:54
In 10 years animosity has only cost me the battle ones. Instead of focussing on weak points of an army, I think you should look at the good ones. O&G are one of the better balanced armies and a core of 2x25 orcs with shields an FC and 2 boar chariots is a safe bet against any army (with B.Orc big bosses so you like, though that only leaves 2 additional char. slots). The rest depends on yer style of play. We have terror troops, we have resilient troops, we have fast troops and troops that move most anywhere, we can shoot hard and\or a lot. A greenskin army can do almost anything as long as you give every unit a task. Don't think ye can win a combat with one, make sure you have three (one is bound to fail a test versus all those scary units you have these days, and ye really need two most of the times). So ye need lots of units in a lot of places. O&G is a horde army and in my experience characters should be as cheap as possible. Put em in a chariot (extra flanking unit with small front), which is amazing these days because it doesn't take special choices anymore. Put some trolls/ogres on the flank. Just regular trolls, they'r cheaper and still really sturdy. If ye take fanatics (also nice on flanks), don't make those unit part of da plan, be prepared that the don't do you any good and build the plan around that.

Jelle
08-08-2008, 09:38
Is it a stretch to claim orc boyz are the most resilient units (to missile fire) in the game? I don't really know the other lists but from what I've seen 6 points for a T4 model with a 5+ save seems the least attractive thing in warhammer to shoot bows at

We also have many many options which is definitely worth something.. however, I've seen an O&G player here (forgot who it was) say that he didn't like to adapt his army list based on which army he'll be facing - in my view that's kind of like throwing this advantage of o&g away! But if you can pull it off I guess..


- most resilient unit to missile fire?
- myriad of options with pretty much every type of unit available other than skirmishers
- orc champions are way better than other races' in the orc boyz and boar boyz units
- cheapest bolt throwers?
- wolf riders some of the best fast cavalry in the game or is that a stretch?

just trying to list some advantages.. I'm pretty sure that people are pretty much correct when they say o&g is weak but to say that we have nothing going for us just can't be right

Arguleon-veq
08-08-2008, 16:54
I think with the two new power armies we get 1 thing but lose another;

VC and Daemons both have heavy magic phases and we have one of the best magic defenses in the game. We then fall apart because both of those armies are also fear causing.

Daemons isn't quite as bad as our offensive magic can thin their ranks, Gork'll Fix it is very nice against Vamps though.

I run;

1 Lv4 Night Gob Shaman,
1 Lv2 Night Gob Shaman,
1 Lv2 Orc Shaman,
1 BlackOrc BigBoss General.

I have both Staffs [Stealin and Sorcery] Waaagh Paint and the Itty Ring + Spirit Totem on a unit of Big Uns for 10 Dispel Dice with -1 Enemy Power and +1 To Dispel.

I also have 10 Power + 1 Bound for decent magical offense.

I take a pair of chariots [1 Gobbo, 1 Orc] for beating ASF and not suffering Animosity.

I take 2 units of Fast Cav[ 6 Spiders, 6 Wolves] for March Blocking and Rank breaking, so they let me get more magic off on Daemons and allow me to get serious combat res boosts against VC.

I take 12 Black Orcs withShield, Full Command and Butchery Banner for a hard hitting none animosity unit.

25 Big Uns with 2 Choppas and my General for another hard hitting unit with no animosity.

2 Units of 30 Gobs with 3 Fanatics Each.

5 Squig Herds [for a 25 Strong Unit] for chomping Undead and not fearing anything.

It has done me quite well, I recently come up against a very powerful Ghoul Horde with 12 Power + 4 Bound and I only lost because a Fanatichit my mage in my last turn, killing him. I would have had a draw. It has beaten Vamp Counts, Dwarfs and High Elves [I have a series of BatReps in the BatRep board for them].

I would probably be better served with 2 units of Orcs with Shields rather than those Night Gobs but I have the models.

Animosity, Fear and ASF is crippling. You need to combat those to make an effective O&G list. I have a couple of things to deal with each of those but I reckon every competative O&G list should fill their Specials with 1 of each Chariot, 12 Black Orcs with Butchery Banner and a Squig Unit. Those special choices alone counter a lot of our problems to some degree.

quina2525
08-08-2008, 17:33
I usually take 2 units of trolls, with 2 wolf chariots and 2 boar chariots, pump wagon and units of boyz, with a black orc warboss, orc mage and goblin mages.

It does not bad, 60%[ish] win rate, it was from the days when i was skint and bought chariots cause they were cheap monetary-wise.

Da GoBBo
08-08-2008, 22:57
Animosity, Fear and ASF is crippling.

small amount of units, very low ld. and no BSB. I see why this is crippling for your army. I'm also a bit amazed that you can win battle's with this army (this is not supposed to be a nasty remark btw). I can see the spamming of magic working in last edition where you had one pool of powerdice and the doo-dash to get all those big waaagh! spells off. This edition I'm not convinced by goin magic heavy, especially with our allready good magic defense capabilities since this ed. Please tell me/us how this lists works for you.

Grom Hellscream
09-08-2008, 21:04
i agree with having to combat fear.
a bsb is good.
trolls IMHO instead of squigs.

magic isn't too viable (damn wasted $ on all those shawman last ed.), and you REALLY REALLY REALLY need that LD9 warboss now.

Left wing jAy
10-08-2008, 00:48
Been a very interesting thread; I find myself considering the army for the first time, having recently purchased Bfsp.

My first games (around 1000pts with some additional models I already owned, all goblins for now) have suggested that magic is the way forward here? I haven't faced these new Daemons or Vampires though.

WhiteKnight
10-08-2008, 04:24
For orcs to be competetive, you need lots and lots of units. I ran like 3 units of 25 orcs with light armour, shield, full command, and choppas. Then I had a unit of 25 savage orcs with light armour and 2 choppas for 3 attacks a pop. They tore up ranks with ease. Then I had a Black orc warboss with the battle awe of the last waagh for awesome attacks and strength bonuses. in a unit of orc boyz and 1 Black orc bigboss in a unit of boyz and a Orc Shaman in the last unit. Also I put the awesome spear chukkaz on both corners of my side, 2 per side for maximum effectiveness. And if I had left over points, a unit of 6 Savage Orc Boar Boyz with Big Uns upgrade. Very hard for opponents with low strength to kill. Even with my bad armour saves, I used numbers against my opponent and tore up ranks and pressed forward to war.

Avian
10-08-2008, 04:28
Savage Orcs can't have light armour. ;)

Fobster
10-08-2008, 14:43
is a unit of 25 savage orcs that good? They seem really pricey, but I guess having 25 gives you some reliability(they are less likely to be wiped out from shooting). Would 2 units of 13 be better? After all only the front 6 are going to do anything anyway.

Mozzamanx
10-08-2008, 14:46
Yea, Savage Orcs really don't seem like they would do much in a big block like that.

I would much prefer 2 units of 12, with a Banner and 2 choppas. Who needs ranks when the enemy is getting chopped into chunks by 18 S4 attacks? Plus its probably harder to bait 2 units than 1.

p3990013
10-08-2008, 15:10
Some elements I've found useful:
- 7 x Savage orc boarboyz
- 20 x Night goblins + 3 fanatics
- 5 x goblin wolf riders
- Boar chariot
- Spear chukkas

beyond these, I really can't say I'm impressed by O&G effectiveness

warlord hack'a
10-08-2008, 16:09
svg orcs with spears are very useful in a block of 22+ (add in a BO character on boar and you can go 6 wide and have 4 ranks).

But a small 10 man svg orc unit with double choppas also rock. In all cases, take a unit champ as they are golden (4 ws4 S5 attacks from the double choppa armed boss alone, thank you!).

Shamfrit
10-08-2008, 16:29
Nets on Night Goblins.

Make it automatic, with no roll, and it's too good. With the roll, it's still incredibly effective, giving you a save against STR5 still, and making Night Goblins a perfect tar pit unit against Ws 3/4 Str 3 Infantry like Swordsmen and skellies.

deggaroth
11-08-2008, 03:25
For orcs to be competetive, you need lots and lots of units. .

I would agree with this. Having lots and lots of large blocks of infantry can be quite useful.

When your fighting shooty armies such as skyre, remember that 'size matters.' is a very useful rule. Generally, I screen my orcs with night gobbos, that have maxed out fanatics in them. After I have released all the fanatics, there is generally one or two units that panic from shooting etc, but it doesen't matter, since the orcsies don't really care. How do I get my gobbos in fanatic range? I screen them with ITP squigs. ;) Coupled with fast cav and a couple of doom divers you have a fairly deadly list.

Lord Aries
11-08-2008, 04:07
Squigs are the key.... they are the best unit in the army... either hoppers or herds. I take a 35 strong herd, and it rocks people's faces.

Da GoBBo
11-08-2008, 10:38
Squigs are also the best thing for enemies to shoot at so you need some sort of shielding. That's the thing with O&G. You don't have one powerfull unit to do it all (like dreadknights). Your army must be one coherent whole and if you can do that, O&G are a very though bunch to beat. Since O&G can do almost anything, I don't see why it can't be competitive and be diverse at the same time.

Harwammer
11-08-2008, 11:09
Don't overcrowd your own lines, if you are playing on a small table then it maybe worth buffing up the points cost of a unit.

O&G suffer from overcrowding; animosity and low leadership means there is a greater chance of your units getting in the way of each other, so having too many units on the table exacebates this.

I think squig herds are best for plugging points/special slots you may have going spare once you've written out the main bit of your list.

Savage orc boar boys are quite hard to screen (to control frenzy); generally screeners that can keep up with them may suffer animosity.

As Dagobbo says O&G isn't about having the best units (my swordmasters beat your horrors, etc.), its about being able to use the entire army as a breathing entity.

Also, think like the SAS: always have a plan for when things go wrong (this might happen alot with O&G!).

King Vyper
11-08-2008, 11:46
My memory is kinds a fuzzy, wasn't at one time more options for different types of goblins. There were different colors and had different abilities?

Urgat
11-08-2008, 12:11
No, that's skinks :)

Arguleon-veq
11-08-2008, 14:19
'small amount of units, very low Ld. and no BSB. I see why this is crippling for your army. I'm also a bit amazed that you can win battle's with this army (this is not supposed to be a nasty remark btw). I can see the spamming of magic working in last edition where you had one pool of powerdice and the doo-dash to get all those big waaagh! spells off. This edition I'm not convinced by goin magic heavy, especially with our allready good magic defense capabilities since this ed. Please tell me/us how this lists works for you.'

I wouldn't say 9 units is a small amount. I agree that going magic heavy isn't a competative way to go with Orcs and Gobs, thats why I said of the units I use, the most competative are Squigs, Chariots and a small hard hitting unit of Black Orcs.

ASF/Fear and Animosity are only a problem because of my list? I think you'll find that every O&G army has problems with them, hence me suggestiong units that negate ASF [Chariots], Animosity [Black Orcs/Black Orc Big Bosses] and Fear [Squigs].

I have a series of 9 BatReps with my list in the BatRep board that should show to some degree how I win with my list. They face in it; Dwarfs, Vampire Counts 3 Times and High Elves 5 Times. So it show cases two of the problems O&G's face in ASF and Fear.

I think a Competative List would look a little like this;

Black Orc Warboss with Best Basha, Spiteful Shield, Heavy Armour, 5+ Ward and Kickin Boots in a unit of 24 Orcs with Hand Weps and Shields.
Black Orc Battle Standard on Boar with Warbanner, Heavy Armour in unit of 23 Orcs with Shields.
Black Orc Big Boss with +1 T Armour in unit of 24 Big Uns with Additional Choppa and Spirit Totem.
Gobbo Shaman with Staff of Stealin in Chariot.

2 Units of Fast Cav,
5 Squig Herds,
4 Bolt Throwers,
Giant.

warlord hack'a
11-08-2008, 14:29
you did have forest goblins though back in the old days, with poisoned attacks.

warlord hack'a
11-08-2008, 14:31
Urgat, read your sig. I have got one (yes one only) forest goblin spiderrider. Just PM me your address and I will send it over (from the Netherlands).

KevinC
11-08-2008, 14:51
Squig Herds!

A large Squig Herd is a key element in a competitive Orcs & Goblins army.

A large Squig Herd of 5 hunting teams costs a mere 150 points and gives you 15 Squigs along with 10 Goblins for a nice block of 25 figures. They should be deployed in a 5x5 block.

- This unit provides a powerful fighty block of ranked infantry that dishes out 10 WS4, S5 attacks, plus it has a healthy rank bonus.

- The unit is immune to pyschology (huge in a greenskin army) so you don't have to worry about it running away for any reason. Also good for the flank of an O&G army because it won't need the general's LD for pyschology test and makes a powerful flanking unit.

- Whatever you do, send the Squigs directly at the enemy battle line, look for areas of his deployment that have lots of small or single model units around. Once the Squigs engage, they will either win (yay!)or explode (yay!). If they win great, if not they explode and you can cause serious damage to the enemy army, especially if there are single model and small units nearby.

For a serious tournament army, I HIGHLY recommend spending 300 points on two big Squig Herds as described above. I have found them invaluable and indeed the best unit in the O&G list.

Cheers,

Kevin out

warlord hack'a
11-08-2008, 15:13
my main problem with squigs (besides their non-existent armour save) is that they take up a special slot and are just another (albeit heavy hitting) infantry force. I use my specials to get either artillery or chariots and usually both.

Also squigs can not flee from a charge and when charged they are bummed with their T 3 and no save.

Urgat
11-08-2008, 15:45
you did have forest goblins though back in the old days, with poisoned attacks.

No, unless you speak of 3rd edition, that I don't know. 4th/5th edition forest goblins were identical in every respect to common and night goblins (no stat differences between the two back then), excepted they didn't have access to a couple options (light armours and halberds). Apart from theme/looks, the only erason you'd take a forest gob unit would be to have access to one more magical standard.
They've never had poison or anything. But let me tell you how I miss the buggers, though... to such an extent that I'm gathering old ones and current plastic ones (w/o the spiders) just to play them as normal gobs.
Speaking of which: check your pm :) (well, in 5 minutes :p)

Da GoBBo
11-08-2008, 16:33
ASF/Fear and Animosity are only a problem because of my list? I think you'll find that every O&G army has problems with them, hence me suggestiong units that negate ASF [Chariots], Animosity [Black Orcs/Black Orc Big Bosses] and Fear [Squigs].


I don't know how but I overlooked the fact that you have a ld.9 general :wtf: This makes a big difference but I still think a BSB is a very welcome aspect to your list. This is because I really think you have small army so you can't afford any of em running off. This means fear can be a bigger problem in your army than in others, as does animosity ones you suffer by it.
Beside that, you only have 1 unit that can really soak damage. The other units are small or fragile. This is why I think ASF is bigger problem for your army than an army with 3 big blocks of common orcs with shields for instance. Also, when things go wrong with your fanatics and they end up roughing up da ladz, you again have bigger problems than a bigger army.

You also benefit from this size of course. Most of your units can use your generals ld. I guess. Exept the wolfriders when they start manouvring around the battlefield, which is still a problem cause my guess is you need em hard, no?

Question: I was wondering how you protect the flanks? My army is often so big ye can't get around it or I have some trolls or Ogres. Does your army need protection on the flanks at all?

General question for everybody: I usually wield cheap characters, nothing fancy, and as little magic items as possible. The fact that this gives some more units has allways appealed to me and allows for errors. With the maximization of the number of models in mind, what items would you allways take with you, no matter your armycomposition?

Other question: animosity has nearly never been bad to me. Not even in the old days. Am I just lucky (my shamans don't blow up either, not even in the old days) or is animosity not all that bad.

Arguleon-veq
11-08-2008, 17:08
You didn't, my General is only Ld 8.

I wasnt saying my list is competative, I just wanted a Night Gobbo Heavy magic army. Its not a power O&G list at all, was just pointing out what I use and pointing out which of those are actually competative. I would be FAR better served with 2 units of Orcs with Shields rather than those Night Gobs.

I dont tend to get flanked very easily, it still outnumbers most armies by a lot of models and 9 units I dont think is a small amount. Plus I often use my Fanatics as a tool to limit the enemies movement options as opposed to just trying to smash them. I will sometimes push them out to a flank to prevent me getting flanked etc. Plus I always have Squigs on a flank who are reliable with their ITP. I use my Spiders as a kind of reserve as they arent fast enough to be a true march blocker or enemy flanker. Instead I use them to Guard my own flanks as they can scuttle over terrain to make sure they stay with my force on thos eoften terrain cluttered edges of the board and they can then benefit from my Generals Ld and support with a charge as they are better in Combat than the Wolves.

I dont think my units are small though really, 2 units of 30, 2 of 25.

I think I mainly win with my list as I've just learnt to use the units I have well. Animosity is crippling though, Ive had chances to charge Chariots andfail right in front of them because of Animosity etc. Last game it totally stopped 1 of my magic phases which I was relying on after taking down the enemy magic defense. Its by no means a Power List but Im good with it. I would take 3 big blocks of Orcs, 4 Bolt Throwers and a Giant if I wanted added effectiveness.

Dungeon_Lawyer
11-08-2008, 18:16
What are peoples thoughts on the Wyverm/Black orc boss model? Worth it? Not worth it? How is it best used? I am building an o&g army at the moment and here is what I have: Skull pass contents, Boss on Wyverm, 1 Boar Chariot, pump wagon, a box of orcs.

How should I config the box of orcs? Choppa? two choppas?, choppa with sheild, or spears? I t seems most posts here like choppa with sheild why is that?

What should I think about getting next? Not really looking for a power gamer army cause I think O&G attract players who are more interested in having fun than in power gaming anyway and Ive been there an done that with lizardmen and chaos space marines. Now I just want to drink beer, roll dice, and laugh as my gobbos do everything except what I want them to.

Shamfrit
11-08-2008, 18:21
The Boss itself is hideous, the Wyvern model is pretty fantastic, although I'm holding off myself with baited breath for the Azhag Model personally.

Choppa and Shield...always.

KevinC
11-08-2008, 20:44
my main problem with squigs (besides their non-existent armour save) is that they take up a special slot and are just another (albeit heavy hitting) infantry force. I use my specials to get either artillery or chariots and usually both.

Also squigs can not flee from a charge and when charged they are bummed with their T 3 and no save.

--------I never said Squigs don't have a weakness - all units do. If you want a winning army, this is the unit you want. Two if you can.

Your thrid special should be a pair of bolt throwers and the 4th whatever suits your taste (Black Orcs, chariot, etc). If you really feel hard pressed on specials just go with one herd, but believe me two really work well.

Kevin out

fubukii
11-08-2008, 22:45
squigs are pretty offensive though 2 str 5 attacks each pretty awesome

Warboss Antoni
11-08-2008, 23:52
This is my 2k list right now. It does fairly decently althought the foruth unit of NG never really do anything - thinking about dropped them for either orcs or more fanatics/netters for my other units:

Black Orc Warboss
Best Boss At, Eavy Armour, Shield

Level 2 Orc Shaman
Horn of Urgok

Level 1 NG Shaman
Nibblas Itty Ring

Level 2 NG Shaman
Scroll, Shroom

30X NG
Spear, Command
1 Fanatic
X4

25 Orc Boy
2 Chopa Command

20 Black Orcs
Sheilds Command

3 Spear Chukkas

Doom Diver Catapult

2X Snotling Pump Wagons ( These actually wreck )

I run like this
Hill w/ Warmachines and a sham
Ng Ng Orcs(Sham) PWagon BL(Warboss) PWagon Ng(sham ) Ng

It's mutable, but running the wagons in between your units is really good. They may be random, but they move at about the same pace as your units ( about 7" a turn ) and its actually better then, because they are delayed a bit and usually charge in after the orcs have. 2D6 Impact hits really help, especailly alongside a unit of orcs.

The only flaw with this list is warmachines, and the Spear Chukkas can take them out. However, I am still debating wether to put in fast cav or not ( dropped one unit of NG could do many things )

Avian
12-08-2008, 14:21
No, unless you speak of 3rd edition, that I don't know.
3rd edition didn't differentiate between different types of gobbos. Even Fanatics were just normal Goblins.

warlord hack'a
13-08-2008, 08:05
how about making Black orcs stubborn? That would definitely make them more intersting to me! (we are still talking about how to adapt the armybook to make them O&G more competitive right?)

Grinloc
13-08-2008, 16:18
how about making Black orcs stubborn? That would definitely make them more intersting to me! (we are still talking about how to adapt the armybook to make them O&G more competitive right?)

It's seems reasonable actually. BO would be embarassed if their smaller comrades watched them running away from a battle.
If GW does this in the 8th edition book their points cost should drop a lil, in the context of the lame "armed to da teeth" rule being hopefully removed.

At least it would give the greenskins a real anvil unit they can depend on.

Gaius Marius
13-08-2008, 17:31
There was a White Dwarf Article, sometime n 6th edition that included rules for different Gobbo Types and abilities. One of which was a fire Kobold thingy that had a breath weapon. If I recall correctly. Cheers

King Vyper
13-08-2008, 18:09
There was a White Dwarf Article, sometime n 6th edition that included rules for different Gobbo Types and abilities. One of which was a fire Kobold thingy that had a breath weapon. If I recall correctly. Cheers

That's it! I knew I wasn't completrly crazy. I remember it being a neat idea. I wish they could have incorporated into the latest Army Book

Da GoBBo
15-08-2008, 11:32
What are peoples thoughts on the Wyverm/Black orc boss model? Worth it? Not worth it? How is it best used? I am building an o&g army at the moment and here is what I have: Skull pass contents, Boss on Wyverm, 1 Boar Chariot, pump wagon, a box of orcs.

How should I config the box of orcs? Choppa? two choppas?, choppa with sheild, or spears? I t seems most posts here like choppa with sheild why is that?

What should I think about getting next? Not really looking for a power gamer army cause I think O&G attract players who are more interested in having fun than in power gaming anyway and Ive been there an done that with lizardmen and chaos space marines. Now I just want to drink beer, roll dice, and laugh as my gobbos do everything except what I want them to.

Wyverns. Last Edition I would only use them at 4000+ since I would want to have a warboss and a great shaman in the center first. But now magic (both greenskin magic and magic in general) has changed and a lv. 4 shaman is not a must anymore. I heard that the highest ld doesn't have to be the general anymore? That's cool so now you can have wyvern and have ld. in the center as well. You'r really gonna need a BSB now so that only leaves space for 1 other character (shaman, big boss with cavalry, big boss in chariot, big boss on squig :D). Personally I think it's to much of a point sink though.

How to use it? I think you can use it to hunt down small units that will be a pain later. He should try to cause as much terror as possible. In the end he can aid in the big battle where he's needed the most. He must be well defended and be able to give punch and you have a 100 points to do so.

About the orc units. Most people wield orcs with shields because for a mere 6 points it gives a T4 model with a 4+ armour save in close combat that has a S4 attack on the charge. This gives ye a very survivable unit for a very good price and you take several of them and still have a lot of points left. It really is the backbone of your army. You could go black orc of course, but that's more'n twice as expensive.
I would never give em two choppa's since you don't get to charge that often and WS3 S3 is not made for dishing out damage. For that same reason I wouldn't use spears either, it won't make much of a difference, especially not when you compare it to the extra armoursave with a choppa shield combo. A normal orc unit is made to recieve damage, hold ground and give static CR. Damage is done by chariots, artillery, cavalary, big Uns (with spears and the banner of butchery :D), black orcs, and squigs and the smaller savage orc units people allready talked about in this thread.

warlord hack'a
15-08-2008, 13:37
Da Gobbo,

you are lingin in 6th edition times.. ;-). choppa is now +1S in the first round of combat, regardless of who charges who and it also works with double choppa. Also, I checked the ld thing regarding the general as I thought the same as you, but the character with the highest ld still needs to be the general..

Da GoBBo
15-08-2008, 14:21
hehe, the only thing I had memorized was the HW-shield bonus you get these days. This is even better and probably makes em the best unit in the game. Forget about squigs and stuff. 8 units of orcs, some charrs and chariots and your done :D To bad about the ld. though. Now I don't get to use me wyvern :(

Storak
15-08-2008, 14:29
hehe, the only thing I had memorized was the HW-shield bonus you get these days. This is even better and probably makes em the best unit in the game. Forget about squigs and stuff. 8 units of orcs, some charrs and chariots and your done :D To bad about the ld. though. Now I don't get to use me wyvern :(

your "best unit in the game" beats empire swordsmen by 0.5 wounds during the first turn of combat. in later turns, they are absolutely the same.

and empire swordsmen get detachments, don t suffer from animosity and are supported by the best artillery in game.

according to you, an empire player should run around with 8 blocks of swordsmen....

Da GoBBo
15-08-2008, 14:36
Emperial swordsman have T4??? Yikes, I didn't know that. 6 points a piece too? BASTARDS! And no, an empire player shouldn't do that because then you won't have those detachments and artillary :D

It would be a mighty sight though.

Storak
15-08-2008, 20:15
Emperial swordsman have T4??? Yikes, I didn't know that. 6 points a piece too? BASTARDS! And no, an empire player shouldn't do that because then you won't have those detachments and artillary :D

It would be a mighty sight though.

no empire swordsmen do not have T4. but empire shooting has S4. i ll call that even.

yes, the empire swordsman costs EXACTLY the same, as the orc with shield.

on the second turn of combat they will perform equally.

empire armies perform much better than O&G armies. and they don t load up on swordsmen. why?

Da GoBBo
16-08-2008, 00:41
And fanatics scare the hell out of everyone, so what? I don't really know what your steering at here. This is a "how to make O&G competitive" thread, not an "Empire performs better than da ladz" one and I'm not really interested in starting a greenskin versus empire debate.
I was answering to a question posted by Dungeon Lawyer about orcs and their equipement. "Why do people want to equip orcs with shields" answer: "because it gives the most resilient model 6 points can buy ye, in the game". In my opinion this principle equals a very good unit in the game because I like study units which I can have loads of for small amounts of points. The best? debatable, of course, but I'd like to think so.

Loading up on orcs was a joke though, henche the big smiley in that previous post. Warhammer is about strategics, not loading up on (powerful) units, as players like Arguleon-veq proves with his army list (I would to see you put that to action). Except when you play dwarfs of course, or lizardman, or bretonnia, or skaven (oh no, that's last edition), or wood elves or .... .

Urgat
16-08-2008, 09:24
Just...


And fanatics scare the hell out of everyone, so what?

They do? My opponents have long since figured that fanatics are not a real threat anymore unless they land directly on them.

Dungeon_Lawyer
16-08-2008, 10:24
thanks Da gobbo

Da GoBBo
16-08-2008, 15:30
They do? My opponents have long since figured that fanatics are not a real threat anymore unless they land directly on them.

You are right of course. But you do mention an unless, which is enough to get an advantage of against most opponents. I haven't played them in this edition yet and are indeed a lot less effective now. I hope people wont realise that and will still be scared by them. It was always nice to see 9 fanatics plow through a choas warrior army :D

Jack Spratt
16-08-2008, 18:16
I started a thread with the exact same purpose some six months ago (i think it was). Bottom line: It can not be done if you are playing against a veteran opponent. Sorry :(

1) Animosity will kill ANY strategy you try.
2) If you are playing against a good player he/she will punish you for this AND WIN!

Its that simple. And again - I am sorry :(

Jack Spratt

Da GoBBo
16-08-2008, 20:29
Sorry, I really don't agree. Animosity can be negated, dealt with, you can get advantage out of it and sometimes your not effected at all. Animosity is just like fear, live with it. A failed fear check can cost you the battle, a failed animosity test as well. I'v lost battle due to both of em. I'v also won battles because of animosity (heyhey, how did that wolfriderunit with 3 ranks end up in the rear by the end of turn one).