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Forlorn
25-07-2008, 16:03
Is there any information regarding how many rounds a bolt gun clip carries? Also how many round a bolt pistol magazine would have? Along these lines how many times could a standard SM flamer be used?

I know in Space Hulk there was a cap on the number of times the Terminator flamer could be used as well as the assault cannon. It was pretty much to balance the game but it got me to thinking and wondering.

I'm putting together a scenerio where ammo is going to be accounted for and thought perhaps someone might be able to help.

Orwin
25-07-2008, 16:07
And i wonder....since everything in the SM fluff is so sacred, would them be allowed to throw the used magazines on the ground, since they are probally annointed and blessed...

Mulrak
25-07-2008, 16:09
I was reading in a post, for the life of me i can not remember where at, that is was a standard 15 round clip. Since the 'rounds' for the Boltgun are so big you would need a huge magazine to carry alot. Now the Storm Bolters with thier drums on them would be able to carry 30 or more.
Maybe you can do some conversion and equip your bolters with drums then so you can cary more rounds per Marine and give each marine 5 mags or 3 drums.

IJW
25-07-2008, 16:11
Confrontation (the forerunner to Necromunda, not the Rackham game) had both Bolters and Bolt Pistols having 15-round magazines. I don't know if Inquisitor has anything more recent.

Redrivertears
25-07-2008, 16:17
Check the Dark Heresy books, they have various models of bolt pistol and bolter, which in turn have varied ammo capacity. The standard boltgun however has 24 shots. The bolt pistol 8.

-Redrivertears-

N0-1_H3r3
25-07-2008, 16:20
Is there any information regarding how many rounds a bolt gun clip carries? Also how many round a bolt pistol magazine would have? Along these lines how many times could a standard SM flamer be used?
As per the Inquisitor and Dark Heresy rules, a bolter's magazine normally contains about 20 shells (some Bolters have larger magazines, but the standard sickle mag contains 20-or-so shells). A bolt pistol magazine contains about half that, depending on the pattern of the weapon (some only carry 6 shells, some carry 10). Flamers normally contain 6 bursts worth of fuel in a single fuel tank (if you're using the smaller, more easily removable, fuel tanks like on Astartes flamers)


And i wonder....since everything in the SM fluff is so sacred, would them be allowed to throw the used magazines on the ground, since they are probally annointed and blessed...
Anointed, blessed, and armour plated.

Most the weight of an Astartes boltgun is armour, so that the weapon can endure the same sorts of conditions the wielder is exposed to. Astartes equipment, while sanctified and revered, is still there to be used in the midst of fierce battles... it gets blessed so that it serves the wearer/wielder in battle.

I'd imagine that any empty magazines dropped in the heat of battle are probably picked up by a servitor or chapter serf...

Forlorn
25-07-2008, 16:36
Thanks everyone! I find this so fascinating.

So a small SM flamer (the rifle sized flamer) tank would contain enough fuel for 6 bursts. I'm guessing plasma pistols and plasma rifles are infinite? I've never heard of any ammo cap on a plasma weapon.

edit: Oh. And wasn't there a diagram in one of the previous 40k rule books that showed a breakdown schematic of the weapons? I think I remember seeing something...

Blue Orphen
25-07-2008, 16:54
Actually, I am pretty sure plasma weapons run on power or fuel cells.

I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall Commissar Hark in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels reloading his plasma pistol at least once, or maybe commenting on a limited number of shots remaining...anyone?

t-tauri
25-07-2008, 17:12
Better suited to 40k background.

Warboss Jhura Ironfang
25-07-2008, 17:44
For the plasma, it works off of a pair of containment flasks (the little knobby thing at the back of the gun and on the bottom) which hold about enough plasma to fire 12 bursts between the two. To replace a depleted flask you need to very carefully unscrew one and then screw in another container without melting your hand off. This is from memory of 3rd Ed, so I may be a bit off on it.

Boss Kopstud
25-07-2008, 18:09
The 3E rulebook had a good two page splash with several weapons drawn out on graph-paper style backgroud. The descriptions included standard magazine sizes. Bolters, IIRC, have magazines as large as 30 rounds. Which is a pretty big magazine, considering the bolter round is .75 cal., or basically the same diameter as a modern 12 guage shotgun shell!

Burnthem
25-07-2008, 19:01
Bolter Mags vary, 'Sickle' patterns hold 30rds, 'Straight' patterns hold 15/20rds, and Pistol Mags hold 8/10rds. This is from memory from the 3ed rulebook, i would check it but it's all of 10 metres away, which is just too far :D

IceWind
25-07-2008, 19:31
I have the 3rd ed rulebook right here, let's see..
The Sickle pattern mag holds 20-30 rounds, a Drum carries 40-60 (which tends to cause ammo jams btw), a Straight one carries 12-20 rounds.
A Bolt pistol clip holds 6-10 rounds.

The plasma gun and pistol works with 2 photonic hydrogen fuel flasks, usually enough for 10 shots.

If somebody cares, las weapons run with power packs, which of most are good for 40 shots and Melta guns pyrum-petrol flask is enough for 5 shots. :)

MrBigMr
25-07-2008, 19:46
I think the same gun drafts were in 4th edition rulebook as well. I could reach into my closet for it, but I'm pretty sure it says (20-)30 rounds with the Storm Bolter holding 40-50 rounds. I'm sure Storm Bolters jam because of their full automatic design. I mean, you have box magazine ones (the sergeant one), which most likely jam as well. But I do agree that by Inquisitor belt fed Bolters (and all belt few weapons) jam. I think Inquisitor gives Bolt Pistols 6 shots, straight magazine bolters 15 or 20 rounds, sickle magazine 30 and belt 50.

In Fire Warrior Imperial bolter has 16 shots and Chaos one 20.


But naturally the size can be anything, as one can make about any size magazine. And I would think some bolter designs having their own magazine types, though the 30 round sickle is likely to be standard. Today you have weapon magazine ranging from 5 to 50 and even 100 round box magazines.

Col. Tartleton
25-07-2008, 20:08
I thought lasguns were 60 shots a cell. Which isn't much, because on auto thats only a few seconds of fire. And at semi automatic thats less than a minute. Not to mention that the gun doesn't do much damage and needs the volume.

MrBigMr
25-07-2008, 20:58
Lasgun ammo varies, as some of them have a modifiable power setting. Mentioned in some novels and in Inquisitor you have the triplex pattern that has various power settings. So a stronger shot causes more damage and certainly more range (probably reason for it, shoot further in atmosphere that would hamper the shot), but also eat more power.

But 60 I hear is quite standard amount.

Corn Berserker
25-07-2008, 21:49
And i wonder....since everything in the SM fluff is so sacred, would them be allowed to throw the used magazines on the ground, since they are probally annointed and blessed...


Why would you throw a mag away anyway? In real life when your mags are empty you refill them from bandoliers. I Imagine seeing as most fluff describes the round as the size of a mini coke can you may fit around 20 if the models are to be believed. I imagine the space marines to fire in a controlled disciplined manner so 20 would be enough anyway, especially seeing as they are explosive. Saying that, when has the fluff ever stood by common sense?

Sekhmet
25-07-2008, 21:58
Is there any information regarding how many rounds a bolt gun clip carries? Also how many round a bolt pistol magazine would have? Along these lines how many times could a standard SM flamer be used?

I know in Space Hulk there was a cap on the number of times the Terminator flamer could be used as well as the assault cannon. It was pretty much to balance the game but it got me to thinking and wondering.

I'm putting together a scenerio where ammo is going to be accounted for and thought perhaps someone might be able to help.


I was reading in a post, for the life of me i can not remember where at, that is was a standard 15 round clip. Since the 'rounds' for the Boltgun are so big you would need a huge magazine to carry alot. Now the Storm Bolters with thier drums on them would be able to carry 30 or more.
Maybe you can do some conversion and equip your bolters with drums then so you can cary more rounds per Marine and give each marine 5 mags or 3 drums.


I have the 3rd ed rulebook right here, let's see..
The Sickle pattern mag holds 20-30 rounds, a Drum carries 40-60 (which tends to cause ammo jams btw), a Straight one carries 12-20 rounds.
A Bolt pistol clip holds 6-10 rounds.

The plasma gun and pistol works with 2 photonic hydrogen fuel flasks, usually enough for 10 shots.

If somebody cares, las weapons run with power packs, which of most are good for 40 shots and Melta guns pyrum-petrol flask is enough for 5 shots. :)


I know this is pedantic, but please don't confuse a clip with a magazine. The two terms are NOT analogous. A clip is a mechanism used to hold rounds of ammunition together before inserting it into a magazine.

"A clip is not a magazine, a mag is not a clip;
Neither is a grip a stock, and "stock" does not mean grip.
I do not mean to nitpick, but improvement could be seen,
If we could bring ourselves to say exactly what we mean."

Corn Berserker
25-07-2008, 22:11
Yes but judging by the context of the question and no correction by the original poster's second response we can assume that he meant a mag.

Sekhmet
25-07-2008, 22:16
well there may be clip-fed bolters in the 41st millennium. I actually wouldn't be surprised.

Corn Berserker
25-07-2008, 22:27
Anything is possible in the fluff confused universe of the 41st millenium.

MrBigMr
25-07-2008, 22:45
Anything is possible in the fluff confused universe of the 41st millenium.
Except anything that's not stated in the official fluff. Or so I've heard.

talos935
26-07-2008, 00:59
*Roots out Inq book*
MkII 20 shots, straight clip
MkIII 30 shots, belf fed
MkIV 20 shots, sickle clip
MkIV 40 shots, drum clip
Bolt pistol 12 shots

I hope that helps clear some bits up. The MkIVs are the current weapon of the marine forces.

icegreentea
26-07-2008, 04:45
I thought lasguns were 60 shots a cell. Which isn't much, because on auto thats only a few seconds of fire. And at semi automatic thats less than a minute. Not to mention that the gun doesn't do much damage and needs the volume.

Number of shots depends on what you set your firing power to. I think you can get it down to 20 shots per cell. Or rather, 20 shots is 'standard' and you can turn it down to 1/3 power and get 60. It's covered in one of Gaunt's Ghosts.

As for 'only' 60 shots. Every single assualt rifle used by every military today tops out at 30 rounds per magazine. Wars have been won with 'dinky' little 8 round clips. IG Infantry (not the conscripts), are among the best 'normal' humanity can offer (in theory). So in all likelihood, they would have some idea of fire discipline. Full auto is a last ditch effort. 60 shots between reloads can go a long way.

Finally, in fluff, it is established that las-rifles do fairly well against fleshy humans. Before I stopped reading this board (several months ago), it seemed established that a single las rifle shot was at least as powerful as a modern day assault rifle round, maybe more so.

Burnthem
26-07-2008, 07:36
Finally, in fluff, it is established that las-rifles do fairly well against fleshy humans. Before I stopped reading this board (several months ago), it seemed established that a single las rifle shot was at least as powerful as a modern day assault rifle round, maybe more so.

Please, please, please, do not open that can of worms again :rolleyes:

The insults and general lack of civility that starts flying whenever that conversation comes up makes me cringe....

Fargius
26-07-2008, 09:38
While I don't have the 4th edition SM book in front of me, I recall one of the little blurbs they randomly toss about stating that the bolter (I forget the mark) had a 30 round magazine with a 4 round burst. A sort of odd combination, considering the fire power of the weapon itself. I'd figure two round bursts at best, considering you'd smear most enemy infantry in a single round.

biggreengribbly
26-07-2008, 10:29
I know this is pedantic, but please don't confuse a clip with a magazine. The two terms are NOT analogous. A clip is a mechanism used to hold rounds of ammunition together before inserting it into a magazine.

"A clip is not a magazine, a mag is not a clip;
Neither is a grip a stock, and "stock" does not mean grip.
I do not mean to nitpick, but improvement could be seen,
If we could bring ourselves to say exactly what we mean."

Well, that's my 'new thing learned' for today.

... remains to be seen if I'll remember it though :angel:

Goq Gar
26-07-2008, 10:33
I remember the "drum" mag variant holding 50.

Burnthem
26-07-2008, 14:17
While I don't have the 4th edition SM book in front of me, I recall one of the little blurbs they randomly toss about stating that the bolter (I forget the mark) had a 30 round magazine with a 4 round burst. A sort of odd combination, considering the fire power of the weapon itself. I'd figure two round bursts at best, considering you'd smear most enemy infantry in a single round.

I've always thought this strange as well, to be honest Bolters should just have a Repetition and a Automatic mode, no fiddling about with Burst modes. I'm sure that if your modern British Infantryman can be trained to fire accurate bursts on Automatic than a SM that that spends 12 hours a day, 365 days a year training is going to be able to do it as well :D

icegreentea
27-07-2008, 02:31
Please, please, please, do not open that can of worms again :rolleyes:

The insults and general lack of civility that starts flying whenever that conversation comes up makes me cringe....

My bad. >.>
Flashlights to blind the enemy until the Space Marines show up then.

olmsted
27-07-2008, 03:34
wargear weapons and wargear reference manual by GW page 8
Bolt Pistol Astartes MK III 6-10 round magazine
Bolter Astartes MK Vb; Godwyn Pattern 20-30 round sickle magazine
Storm Bolter Astartes MK VII; Terminatus Pattern 40-60 round drum magazine
Heavy Bolter Astartes MK IVc; Man-portable Powered Feed or high capacity box magazine
Flamer MK IIIa; "Heretic Pattern 6 burst promethium tank (this is pretty much the same drawing as the space marine version looks like.

catbarf
27-07-2008, 04:02
A laser, by very definition, would have no recoil. Therefore it stands to reason that a lasgun would be used on a fully automatic setting, since the amount of hits that can be put on a target is only limited by the weapon's cycle rate.

A bolter, on the other hand, would probably be a single-shot weapon, due to the size and power of the rounds used. Burst fire is intended to maximize accuracy and add the possibility of multiple hits. A rocket needs neither.

Sekhmet
27-07-2008, 05:47
A laser, by very definition, would have no recoil. Therefore it stands to reason that a lasgun would be used on a fully automatic setting, since the amount of hits that can be put on a target is only limited by the weapon's cycle rate.

Actually you could have a continuous stream of fire if your power pack had a high output. If not, then yeah, you'd be rapid fire in order to charge capacitors before firing.

And actually, lasers do have recoil... It's just too small to make any difference at this scale.



A bolter, on the other hand, would probably be a single-shot weapon, due to the size and power of the rounds used. Burst fire is intended to maximize accuracy and add the possibility of multiple hits. A rocket needs neither.
IIRC, bolt shells use a relatively weak charge to just expel the round from the firing chamber, then a rocket motor takes effect sometime after, presumably just before leaving the barrel. The end effect would be very little recoil, definitely nothing near what a 50 caliber rifle would have.

StormWulfen
27-07-2008, 08:05
I'd figure two round bursts at best, considering you'd smear most enemy infantry in a single round.

the explosives in a bolter shell is about enough to take off an arm or leg at most. the explosion will very rarely harm more than one enemy at a time:chrome:

Francis29
27-07-2008, 09:35
IIRC, bolt shells use a relatively weak charge to just expel the round from the firing chamber, then a rocket motor takes effect sometime after, presumably just before leaving the barrel. The end effect would be very little recoil, definitely nothing near what a 50 caliber rifle would have.

It says in one of the Ragnar books (i think it's in the first one) that the recoil could blow off a normal mans arm. Going by this then a normal man could not use a bolt gun, but they do.

Isambard
27-07-2008, 09:47
It says in one of the Ragnar books (i think it's in the first one) that the recoil could blow off a normal mans arm. Going by this then a normal man could not use a bolt gun, but they do.

Ab, but there are 2 types of Bolter. The Imperial Guard have access to the caseless version which uses only a small kick charge to fire the bolt, then the bolts rocket takes over.

Marines use a bigger, cased version. This has a much larger charge in the case, creating a heavy recoil. When the Bolt leaves the barrel the bolt's own rocket kicks in, making the weapon much more potent.

This is why fluff always states Bolters are caseless (as it was written by people familiar with the Imperial Guard) yet pictures of Marines always show ammo casings going everywhere.

Comrade Wraith
27-07-2008, 09:50
The bolters in the horus heresy series are fired on automatic mode a couple of times, such as (and this is the only one i recall properly) in the first book in thw whisperheads (wont ruin it for anyone)

3rd Ed says sickle magazines are 20-30 rounds staggered.

bojan
27-07-2008, 23:16
40K guns capacity from Inquisitor:

Laspistol - 30
Lasgun (Mars) - 60
Lasgun (Necromunda) - 50
Lasgun (Triplex) - 60
Longlas - 40
Lascannon - 10
Autopistol - 20
Autogun - 30
Heavy Stubber - 40
Stubber - 15
Assault Cannon - 45 (!?)
Bolt Carbine - 20
Bolter (MkII Straight mag) - 15
Bolter (MkIII Belt) - 15
Bolter (MkIV Drum) - 40
Bolter (MkV Sickle) - 20
Heavy Bolter - 40
Storm Bolter - 30
Inferno Pistol - 3
Meltagun - 5
Multimelta - 5
Flamer - 6
Hand Flamer - 4
Heavy Flamer - 8
Plasma Pistol - 5
Plasma Gun - 10
Psycannon - 30
Needle Rifle - 6
Shuriken Catapult - 80

Forlorn
28-07-2008, 14:01
I would have thought that a bolter would have a semi or full auto selector instead of burst fire. Which would then lead me to ask why burst fire? There is an option to use a scope on bolters as well but I would think a burst fire weapon would be inaccurate for a scope.

And thanks for the clarification on a clip and a magazine. Noted! ;)

catbarf
28-07-2008, 18:10
Actually you could have a continuous stream of fire if your power pack had a high output. If not, then yeah, you'd be rapid fire in order to charge capacitors before firing.

Yeah, you could, but I think the laser weapons in 40k are designed to charge up for a powerful shot, rather than a constant low-intensity beam like the kind being tested nowadays as anti-missile defense.


And actually, lasers do have recoil... It's just too small to make any difference at this scale.

Are you sure? I'd think light wouldn't produce any equal-and-opposite reaction.


IIRC, bolt shells use a relatively weak charge to just expel the round from the firing chamber, then a rocket motor takes effect sometime after, presumably just before leaving the barrel. The end effect would be very little recoil, definitely nothing near what a 50 caliber rifle would have.

A short barrel wastes propellant gas and produces more recoil, and provides less stabilization due to a lighter barrel. Furthermore, we're talking about a .75" rocket- around twenty times the volume of a 5.56mm. If the rocket motor activates before the round leaves the barrel, then that's more recoil as well (although the pressure it would generate would make some fantastic acceleration).

Imagine a Type 89 knee mortar, braced against your chest. Ouch.

borithan
28-07-2008, 21:21
Boltguns, Space Marine ones at least, have, as normal issue, a 30 round clip, used with 4 round burst (my rationale for this one is that they don't normally full the magazines fully, ie, only put 28 in, as I have heard this is frequently done/was done with real weapon. Then it handily divides by 4).

Lasguns, at least according to the primer, have a rather pathetic rate of fire for automatic (220 rounds a minute and thats cyclic, while the normal rate for an automatic weapon is 5-600+).

olmsted
28-07-2008, 21:38
A laser, by very definition, would have no recoil. Therefore it stands to reason that a lasgun would be used on a fully automatic setting, since the amount of hits that can be put on a target is only limited by the weapon's cycle rate.

A bolter, on the other hand, would probably be a single-shot weapon, due to the size and power of the rounds used. Burst fire is intended to maximize accuracy and add the possibility of multiple hits. A rocket needs neither.

it maybe one thing to say the lazer itself has not recoil but that doesnt mean the mechanisms within the lasgun dont.

Sekhmet
28-07-2008, 23:55
it maybe one thing to say the lazer itself has not recoil but that doesnt mean the mechanisms within the lasgun dont.

Lasguns shouldn't have any moving parts whatsoever.


Yeah, you could, but I think the laser weapons in 40k are designed to charge up for a powerful shot, rather than a constant low-intensity beam like the kind being tested nowadays as anti-missile defense.

Right, charging capacitors before firing bursts.



Are you sure? I'd think light wouldn't produce any equal-and-opposite reaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative_laser_propulsion



A short barrel wastes propellant gas and produces more recoil, and provides less stabilization due to a lighter barrel. Furthermore, we're talking about a .75" rocket- around twenty times the volume of a 5.56mm. If the rocket motor activates before the round leaves the barrel, then that's more recoil as well (although the pressure it would generate would make some fantastic acceleration).

Imagine a Type 89 knee mortar, braced against your chest. Ouch.
Does a boltgun really have a short barrel? Really? It seems short compared to the size of the space marine, but is it actually short?
I thought boltgun rounds were .50", whereas heavy bolter rounds were 0.75"?

TheDarkDaff
29-07-2008, 01:04
Do they still have that thing about the cells for Lasguns being able to recharge by sunlight (or throwing into a fire for the express version). I even seem to remember being able to shake them to recharge in some cases and also having a bolt action used to "charge up" a las gun shot.

Brother-Captain Antilles
29-07-2008, 10:25
I always thought Lasguns were recharged like the ones on Futurama a la a wind up toy...

Oh, and re Marines leaving empty mags, I remember a character from the old Book of the Astronomicon, a field notary called Corwen Quilp, who used to follow the troops around and make detailed notes on the fact that the Marines did not pick up empty ones.