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Mkwong
31-10-2005, 21:32
Can 2 characters join together and form a unit- say a daemon prince and a exalton daemon? (both are US3)

Is the special ability "chaos disruption" cumulative if both daemon characters have it?
Exact wording:"Any shooting at the daemon or the unit it is with suffers an additional -1 to hit penalty"

What units can a daemon on a 40x40 base join? Screamers (flyers that skirmish, but the daemons can fly, so would be able to stay together right?)

Thanks in Advance!

Atrahasis
31-10-2005, 22:01
Can 2 characters join together and form a unit- say a daemon prince and a exalton daemon?

Yes, any character not on a monstrous mount can join any character not on a monstrous mount.


Is the special ability "chaos disruption" cumulative if both daemon characters have it?

Yes. Modifiers are usually cumulative unless stated otherwise.


What units can a daemon on a 40x40 base join? Screamers (flyers that skirmish, but the daemons can fly, so would be able to stay together right?)

No, for two reasons.
Firstly, only Unit Strength 1 characters on foot can join skirmishers.
Secondly, no characters AT ALL can join units of fliers.

Izram
01-11-2005, 02:01
As for the effects being cumilative, I don't they are. I don't have the book but i'm pretty sure that it is worded in a similar fasion as Cloud of Flies, saying something along the lines of: 'Missle fire targeted at a model with chaos distruption is at -1 to hit' or '-1 to hit from missles'. I dont think having more than one model with the ability multiplies it.


Tag-on question: What the heck is the new unit?
-US1 each and 360 degree view?
-US1 90 degree view?
-US3 each, 360 view?
-US3 each 90 view?

I would assume their special rule of "US3" would make them US3 each but being a unit of flyers would give them 360 degree view, but it seems like an abuse of the rules.

and if no characters can join a unit of flyers, 2 exalteds could join eachother but 3 could not?

NakedFisherman
01-11-2005, 03:58
US3 each with 90-degree LOS just like both models were independently.

Atrahasis
01-11-2005, 07:48
I don't have the book but i'm pretty sure that it is worded in a similar fasion as Cloud of Flies, saying something along the lines of: 'Missle fire targeted at a model with chaos distruption is at -1 to hit' or '-1 to hit from missles'. I dont think having more than one model with the ability multiplies it."Shooting at the daemon or the unit he is with suffers an additional -1 to hit modifier"

No indication that they are not cumulative, and even an "additional" in there for good measure.


-US3 each 90 view?

I would assume their special rule of "US3" would make them US3 each but being a unit of flyers would give them 360 degree view, but it seems like an abuse of the rules.Only units with the "Flying Unit" rule are units of fliers.

Mad Makz
02-11-2005, 03:33
In the case of flying daemons...

Each character is a unit on it's own.

Each unit is a flyer.

Characters can't join units of flyers, therefor they can't join each other.

If NEITHER flew, then they could join together to form a unit.

Flypaper
02-11-2005, 05:47
That seems like an intentionally perverse use of the rules - the BRB clearly points out that characters with flying can't join flying units because of the size disparity (since before Brets came out all noncharacter nonmonstrous fliers were US1) with the implied difference in moblility. Not really the case here, you'll note. It's also fairly self-evident from the tone and context that a "unit flyer" means a specific type of model - Harpies and Terradons, say - as opposed to "a unit which happens to have flying".

Just because it's a stupid rule doesn't mean we shouldn't obey it, of course, but GW has been throwing out hints like crazy over the last few releases that it's dated, and one short step short from oblivion (on which point, why exactly are WE Warhawk Riders Flying Cavalry? They already nicked Terradons' good special rule without being given extra bonuses from the most hated unit in Brettonia!).

Atrahasis
02-11-2005, 10:37
In the case of flying daemons...

Each character is a unit on it's own.

Each unit is a flyer.

Characters can't join units of flyers, therefor they can't join each other.

If NEITHER flew, then they could join together to form a unit.

A character can join any unit unless prohibited. A flying character, while a flying unit, is not a "Unit of Flyers". Only units with the rule "FLying Unit" are units of flyers.

Túrin Turambar
02-11-2005, 15:22
I found some clarification on the multiple daemonic gifts thing, it states under the "daemonic gifts" section in the Daemonic Legion armylist;
The effect of multiples of the same gift are not cumulative (eg, units within 6" of 2 or more Daemons with Radiance of Dark Glory would still deduct only one wound from those they must suffer from a failed Instability test)

Thought this might help, trying to get up with a DL army myself
For those who might ask, the DL army list can be found here http://stormofchaos.us.games-workshop.com/book/armies/default.htm

Atrahasis
02-11-2005, 15:25
I found some clarification on the multiple daemonic gifts thing, it states under the "daemonic gifts" section in the Daemonic Legion Army list;
"The effect of multiples of the same gift are not cumulative

I stand corrected.

Should have thought of looking at the DL list, as under the Hordes list, no gift can be repeated in a list anyway.

Izram
02-11-2005, 17:35
So am I to undertsand that I can take 2 flying Nurgle daemons for a US6 flying unit that breaks flanks, causes terror, has two breath weapons, -1 to hit, 6 magic levels, 4+ ward, 9 wounds etc.
Its like the stupid tzeentch lord on a dragon, but for my nurgle!

Atrahasis
02-11-2005, 18:31
So am I to undertsand that I can take 2 flying Nurgle daemons for a US6 flying unit that breaks flanks, causes terror, has two breath weapons, -1 to hit, 6 magic levels, 4+ ward, 9 wounds etc.
Its like the stupid tzeentch lord on a dragon, but for my nurgle!

Yup, its probably something that will get fixed in the new rules (given the ruling on characters on monstrous mounts joining each other) but until then its perfectly legal.

Flypaper
03-11-2005, 03:21
So am I to undertsand that I can take 2 flying Nurgle daemons for a US6 flying unit that breaks flanks, causes terror, has two breath weapons, -1 to hit, 6 magic levels, 4+ ward, 9 wounds etc.
Its like the stupid tzeentch lord on a dragon, but for my nurgle!

For nine hundred odd points, I'd certainly hope so!

In any case, standing Terror causers next to each other is actually an inefficient use of the ability. And it's not like you don't get exactly the same effect from more-or-less standing the two characters 1" away from each other and then declaring combined charges...

Izram
03-11-2005, 04:11
Thats not the point, I'm just happy to have a US6 flyer!

WLBjork
03-11-2005, 06:40
For nine hundred odd points, I'd certainly hope so!

In any case, standing Terror causers next to each other is actually an inefficient use of the ability. And it's not like you don't get exactly the same effect from more-or-less standing the two characters 1" away from each other and then declaring combined charges...

Wrong.

You don't get anywhere near the same effect, as each individual is US3. The only time US of units is combined is to determine outnumber. Hence, they will not negate flanks, which can be a bad thing.

Mad Makz
03-11-2005, 22:08
Au Contraire, if they can join together as A unit, then they DO count as unit strength 6.

Which is why I say you can't join them together as a unit, it's clearly not intended to be possible.

The argument that only a Flying Unit is a unit of flyers is flawed. There is nowhere in the rule that states that a unit of flyers only means Flying Unit. Taken in it's English context, the question is:

A) Is it a unit? Yes
B) Is the unit made up of flyers? Yes.

The only slight arguement you could make is that the 's' implies the plural, but that's stretching it thin.

I would vehemently argue it is not the designers intention for 'tag-teaming' flying characters to be able to break units flanks.

The rules do not adequately define the situation of multiple characters joining together to form a new unit, only that characters are units of 1 and that characters can join units. Ignoring the normal rules for characters joining flying units because the character is a unit of 1 and not a 'Flying Unit' is the worst kind of rules lawyering that is both flawed, as it is assuming units of flyers only means 'Flying Unit', and skewed towards a potentially game unbalancing benefit not intended by the designers.

Atrahasis
03-11-2005, 22:51
So, by your logic, Daemon Princes, Dragons, Great Eagles, Manticores, Greater Daemons etc. are all skirmishers and therefore have 360 LOS?

Only Flying Units follow the rules for Units of Flyers.

WLBjork
07-11-2005, 05:44
BRB, P106:


Most monsters are flyers, but some units of troops can fly too. Such units are clearly identified in their army lists

Unfortunately Mad Makz, people are going by precisely what the wording is in the rulebook.

Mad Makz
07-11-2005, 23:27
Hmm, you have a point, I concede that the rules as they stand probably don't prevent two flying daemons joining to to form a unit.

I am fairly certain this wasn't intended to happen, I hope 7th edition clears this up.

I don't have the BRB on me, and a full analysis of the entire text may be necessary. I'll come back to this.

FrostPaw
12-11-2005, 22:29
Could a champion/lord join a unit of daemons if they where all on foot or all mounted?

I'm thinking champion on a steed of slaanesh joining a unit of daemonettes on steeds of slaanesh.

Atrahasis
13-11-2005, 02:48
No, Mortal, Daemonic, and Beast Units can only be joined by Mortal, Daemonic, and Beast characters respectively.