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Hierarch
26-07-2008, 05:28
So just then I finished reading some stuff on Horus and I would like to take some time out on this discussion. Though some of this information may be wrong I would like to get the pure version of it all from you guys.


During a mission on the Feral World Davin, Horus was wounded in battle, but the natives of the world helped to heal him. Many modern scholars believe that the group of healers were actually Chaos Cultists who somehow managed to take advantage of the illness in the Primarch. After this healing, changes in Horus began to occur. It seems from then on, Horus planned and plotted to overthrow the Emperor in what was to become known as the Horus Heresy. by http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus

Is this true? I have never read any of the Horus Heresy books so is this different from the books?


With iron resolve, he gathered his full strength and delivered a massive psychic blow that killed Horus almost instantly and obliterated his very soul. In his final moments, the powers of Chaos were driven from him and the Emperor sensed his favored son's return to sanity for a fraction of a second before he finally died. by http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus

Now that last sentence made me think. Does Chaos control or does it influence?
If he was controlled does that make Horus not so bad after all?

Thanks for reading this :D,

Hierarch

Stezerok
26-07-2008, 05:50
It's a funny thing really. Horus definitely was not bad to begin with, and whats more is that even when he rebelled against the Emperor, he did so because he believed the Emperor was going to betray him and his brothers (Horus Heresy: False Gods). He therefore retaliated in the interest of himself and his fellow primarchs. It was the power that Chaos offered--initially for the purpose of slaying the Emperor--that then influenced Horus to go to the extreme. The resulting power lust was all Chaos needed to enter into Horus' mind.

Horus was tricky though. Not once did he lose control of himself entirely, as was evidence by the fact that he never became a Daemon Prince. His will to dominate Chaos allowed him to maintain his "humanity", but thats not to say that the 4 gods presences were not within him.

In the end, I think Horus was a sad case of someone who was good, but became so disillusioned with the person he loved most that he could only despise the Emperor. It's ironic too to think that the vision that caused Horus to rebel against the Emperor, the vision that Horus sought to prevent, was a vision of the reality that would come to pass should Horus rebel against the Emperor.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

starlight
26-07-2008, 05:59
Does Chaos control or does it influence?

Both, it all depends on the strength of the subject...

Some simply kneel to Chas, in which case it controls them because they have given over control willingly.

In other cases, Chaos can't gain that foothold, so they are content with a toehold and they exert influence (albeit *tremendous* influence) in an effort to sway the subject to working for them, even though the subject may not be aware of this...and may in fact think they are opposing Chaos.

clanfield
26-07-2008, 07:41
a diferance between being a follower and being possed ie have a very old demon in your head i guess

Hierarch
26-07-2008, 13:01
So was Horus being controlled? It said the powers of chaos where driven from him and he became sane again and the Emperor saw his son again for a split second before his soul was distroyed.

t-tauri
26-07-2008, 13:18
Better suited to 40k background.

baphomael
26-07-2008, 18:47
It awaits to be seen what really happens to Horus.

Ironically, though, the vision of the future chaos had granted him (ie, an Imperium which worships the Emperor as a God etc etc) that spurred him into rebellion is the very result of his own actions.

Lothlanathorian
26-07-2008, 18:58
If you've ever read any of RA Salvatore's Forgotten Realms novels, then Crenshinibon the crystal shard is a good example, methinks, of how Chaos works. It gets into your head, into your dreams, promising you that which you most desire, if you only let it help you. Slowly, it twists and perverts how you view things, so that you do what it wants, but the choice, free will, is still yours. You could choose to walk away whenever you want to, but you don't, you are addicted.

When the Emporer blasted Horus, Chaos fully removed itself from him and Horus saw things without the perversion to cloud his judgement for that last half second. That was the moment of clarity, just before death, that was truly Horus.

Good real world example: You drunk vs. you sober.

heretics bane
26-07-2008, 19:51
Horus didnt know he was being used by chaos,he though he was saving the imperium that he and his brothers created such a cruel irony.

Chaos will try to curropt you and if it cant it will try and fool you into thinking your helping the cause you fight but it is acually curropting you.

Brother Siccarius
26-07-2008, 20:27
If you've ever read any of RA Salvatore's Forgotten Realms novels, then Crenshinibon the crystal shard is a good example, methinks, of how Chaos works. It gets into your head, into your dreams, promising you that which you most desire, if you only let it help you. Slowly, it twists and perverts how you view things, so that you do what it wants, but the choice, free will, is still yours. You could choose to walk away whenever you want to, but you don't, you are addicted.

When the Emporer blasted Horus, Chaos fully removed itself from him and Horus saw things without the perversion to cloud his judgement for that last half second. That was the moment of clarity, just before death, that was truly Horus.

Good real world example: You drunk vs. you sober.
Both good examples in my opinion.

So just then I finished reading some stuff on Horus and I would like to take some time out on this discussion. Though some of this information may be wrong I would like to get the pure version of it all from you guys.

by http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus

Is this true? I have never read any of the Horus Heresy books so is this different from the books?

It's less detailed and misleading. Horus went to Davin to fight a former Imperial Commander who had insulted Horus and his honor. When they arrived there Horus found him corrupted by Nurgle and wielding an Anathema*. Horus killed him (and his dying moments are quite relevant to the below question), but was wounded by the Anathema.

Erebus of the Word Bearers suggested that they allow him and the people of Davin to heal Horus. Erebus then takes Horus into a temple and shows him visions. He shows him what will happen in the future to come (A world where the traitor legions are forgotten or their names censured), and of the past (the chamber where the Emperor created the Primarchs, and the event that scattered them). Magnus comes in and succeeds somewhat in trying to stop Erebus, but Horus becomes angry with Mangus for breaking the Emperor's decree and using sorcery.

Horus awakes, healed, and broods for some time, eventually allowing his legion to turn to chaos. He never really seems to turn to the chaos Gods himself, even though he follows his plan. However, after the events of Davin, you don't get a picture or scene from Horus's view point, so he's still one big, mean mystery.

*Anathema are weapons that can be "attuned" to a certain person in order to make even the slightest cut from it turn deadly. It was stolen from the Interex (A human/alien alliance against chaos) by Erebus (a word bearer).


by http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus

Now that last sentence made me think. Does Chaos control or does it influence?
If he was controlled does that make Horus not so bad after all?

Thanks for reading this :D,

Hierarch

Chaos can do both. There's always been a saying that goes along with Chaos: To turn to chaos is to lose what makes you human. Well, it does, as you slowly (or in some cases quickly) lose what makes you you. If you keep your wits and will about you then it only influences you, poking you this way and that to put you on the track that it wants.

If you choose not to fight it and just succumb to chaos then it's fair to say that you're no longer you. I'd almost venture a guess that your soul is stripped of all the non-chaos-power-essential parts and you're that from now on, essentially the demon that your soul would have become after dissipating into it's component emotions after death.

Horus's death resulted in the chaos powers removing all influence and granted powers from him. Hence why he was suddenly, and finally, able to see what he had done.

Hierarch
26-07-2008, 22:25
Thanks so much guys for helping me out on that. Another question I have had in my mind is why did the Emperor kill Horus in the end? Couldn't he have just used a certain amount of psychic energy to drive all the chaos out of him? Supposedly Sanguinius could see into the future, still why did he go aboard Horusís ship if he knew he was going to face his peril?

Thanks again.

icegreentea
27-07-2008, 02:38
Thanks so much guys for helping me out on that. Another question I have had in my mind is why did the Emperor kill Horus in the end? Couldn't he have just used a certain amount of psychic energy to drive all the chaos out of him? Supposedly Sanguinius could see into the future, still why did he go aboard Horusís ship if he knew he was going to face his peril?

Thanks again.

The Emperor was nearly dead himself. His psychic attack was his last chance. The power required to scare the crap out of Chaos GODS is so ridiculous, it would have killed anyone (I would think). Depending on which version of fluff, the Emperor may have been holding back the entire time until a random IA trooper, some Imperial Fist, or a Custodes gets flayed by Horus' brain powers.

As for Sanguinius? He may have seen that him dying was the only way, that it was the honourable thing to do (Sanguinius has been described as being the one closest to Horus), or that the warp clouds all.

Hierarch
27-07-2008, 02:55
Ah cool thanks for clearing that up for me.

Knight_Yellow
27-07-2008, 04:09
One of the several Horus vs Emperor versions stated the following...

The Emperor was holding back and Horus wounded him horrificly, An IA Terminator/custodes runs into the room and Horus basicly holds up the Emperors shattered body to boast his triumph... the Loyalist charges Horus without a seconds thought and Horus basicly flails him with his mind.

The Emperor realises that Horus is beyond saving and finaly decides to end the fight, he unleashes an attack so powerful the 4 Chaos gods combined recoil from Horus, The Emperor notices that Horus is now free from Chaos and is wracked with guilt over what he has done. But the Emperor realises that if he spares Horus then Chaos might very well influence him once more and would be unstopable (considering the Emperor knows hes going to be in the golden throne from now on).

So the Emperor continues the attack and burns Horus's soul from existensce so that Chaos can never defile him again.

Sanguiness knows hes going to die but decides he has to try and reach his brother anyway or what sort of friend/family would he be? (kind of like holding onto that last little bit of hope even though you know its never going to happen).

Brother Siccarius
27-07-2008, 06:18
Thanks so much guys for helping me out on that. Another question I have had in my mind is why did the Emperor kill Horus in the end? Couldn't he have just used a certain amount of psychic energy to drive all the chaos out of him? Supposedly Sanguinius could see into the future, still why did he go aboard Horusís ship if he knew he was going to face his peril?

Thanks again.

Because he would have also known the outcome if they didn't do it. If Sanguinis hadn't died to Horus, the Emperor would have continued to hold back against Horus, rather than seeing, through the sacrifice of Sanguinis what had to be done.

Horus couldn't be saved, he was too far gone. It's not that it couldn't happen, but what do you do with a man who's literally torn apart humanity and introduced a dangerous and apocalyptic event and foe into it's folds? Who's started taints so deep that they wouldn't be recognized for thousands of years, and even brought some of his brothers along with him? When the Emperor realized what Horus had done, through the killing of both Sanguinis and a, fairly random, soldier he realized that Horus had to die.