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View Full Version : Hive Gangs pressed into service, how many is too many?



JanusKain
26-07-2008, 07:22
Ok, this one is kinda long winded. As I have an explanation to go with it as well.

I finally decided to go through with building my Imperial Hive Army (Gangers pressed into service). After a year of staring at my Arbites and Orlocks boxes, I can say with perfect conviction that they are awesome and will work to make an army.

So, here is where my background issue comes into play. I know that the guard will press gangers into service either through threats of punishment or promise of payment (they even had an old chapter approved that gave rules for squads of gangers). My issue though, is at what point are their too many conscripted gangers, and not enough PDF soldiers.

This is mainly an issue of command. At what point would the command structure wonder if they have too many lowly, devious hive gangs and not enough soldiers to guard to valuable equipment.

My first idea was to have 2 platoons of nothing but gangers being lead by arbites. But then the only guardsmen I would have would be maybe some veterans and the tanks, and a command squad.

So here is my current dilemma.

- 2 Ganger platoons (that's 4 squads)

- 1 Ganger platoon, 1 guard platoon.

Thank you all for your assistance. And remember, I care more about the fluff aspect of this issue than the total cost/power of the army.

(also, I think this is a background question, but I'm not sure if it should go into army lists)

Lothlanathorian
26-07-2008, 07:24
It depends on how dire the straights are for why they were pressed into service. How 'desperate' is your force for bullet catchers?

JanusKain
26-07-2008, 07:28
Not desperate, just surprised.

I forgot to add that part.

So the idea is more that an enemy just breached into the hive. And they are just grabbing up as many of the locals as they need so they can leave some forces to keep watch ect. Nothing like a full scale invasion. Just a standard force for a 1,500 to 2,000 point game showed up and attacked a small underhive town.

Grabbing the hivers to help is more because its the underhive, so no one really cares what happens to it. They just don't want it to spread up hive and don't want to risk more trained soldiers than they have to.

Lothlanathorian
26-07-2008, 08:05
I voted one based on your description. The PDF shows up and goes, 'YOU!!'

talos935
26-07-2008, 21:21
Two ways to look at this one is
1) The PDF aproach the gangers and 'pay' them to fight
2) Their hive is under heavy attack and the gangers form 'scratch' companies to fight and save their hive/homes.

Alessander
26-07-2008, 23:20
During the 2nd war for Armgaddon, Inquisitor Horst was good at gathering surviving gangs from ruins of hives and forming armed forces.

talos935
26-07-2008, 23:32
Are the arbites going to be the platoon command or the HQ command?

Move Fast Hit Low
27-07-2008, 04:49
You could make it Gangers fighting for there territory against whatever enemy, maybe neighboring gangs teaming up against the enemy. I can see 2 platoons working.

olmsted
27-07-2008, 05:33
aye 2 platoons. remember many amries of the imperium are just workers and hivers grabbed and thrown into the barracks. and actually since most gangers have some sort of combat ability they would make a decent if albiet poorly disciplined army

Khaine's Messenger
27-07-2008, 07:09
My issue though, is at what point are their too many conscripted gangers, and not enough PDF soldiers.

The entire army would be do-able in that mold; just like other Imperial penal armies, the nco's and lower echelon officer corps. would be made up of trustees (unless the gangs were eerily well-organized, which Necromunda-style gangs sometimes are). Commissars just wouldn't last in such regiments outside the upper levels of command, and arbites would keep their distance, serving more as a beatstick should things get out of hand rather than as part of the officer corps. Not that it can't be done that way, but I don't think that would be common practice, especially since the Arbites and Commissariat are technically independant of the Imperial Guard command structure. A good reason to include Witch Hunter Storm Troopers in your army, at the very least. :)

Really, the only thing to keep in mind is how you're representing your gangers on the table-top. If you're using conscript platoons, then you'll obviously have to abide by the rules that limit their use and equipment. Otherwise, it's mostly just a flavor to the regiment and, likely, a style of play.

Green Shoes
27-07-2008, 07:29
I can see it being 2 platoons. They may not like the Arbites, but they do like their homes and "sources of income", so I think they would fight to defend it. What would be really cool is if each platoon or squad was a different gang.

Have you thought about making this a force tooled-up to do well in Cities of Death? I can definitely image that hive gangers would do better in confined, narrow streets and passages where there is plenty of opportunity for cover and ambush.

bobbles
27-07-2008, 12:47
2 is for the best as in truth all the imperial forces would care about is that number of bodys in the fight

Getifa Ubazza
27-07-2008, 13:34
I voted for one Platoon, But would make it a Conscript Platoon with lots of bodies. Maybe even go with a full Platoon of 50. That would be cool. Do an Arbites command squad to go along side them, Then a standard Guard Platoon as your PDF force. I would use Mordians for those. One Comm squad would count as your army HQ and one as your Platoon HQ. Can you tell, ive thought of doing this myself. LOL.

Feor
27-07-2008, 13:42
Depends. Conscripted Gangers tend to be both the best and worst soldiers in a guard army. On one side, basic combat training for them is more of a refresher, and probably kinda simplistic for many of them. These ar already hardened killers, who are going to have tons of real world experiance in close combat and marksmanship. On the other side of the coin, however, they tend to be unruly and bad at following orders.

If they're being press-ganged to meet Guard Recruitment quota for a certain world, I'd take a platoon, with the Command squad and each sergeant as Arbites, to keep the scum in line. If you went with the "banding together to protect ther homes" story, I'd use two platoons and save the arbites for use as hardened veterans.

If you wanted to add extra background to them, have each squad as it's own gang, go download the Necromunda Rulebooks, and actually make each of the gangs from those rules, then just move them into 40K.

Badbones777
27-07-2008, 13:50
During the 2nd war for Armgaddon, Inquisitor Horst was good at gathering surviving gangs from ruins of hives and forming armed forces.

Yeah. I would go for that kind of aspect for the fluff. Im assuming its Orks or Chaos that are invading? But whatever it is, I dont think they would need much "persuading" after all, if theyre underhivers, theyre gonna get it first, and cant expect much in the way of mercy from the enemies of man! I would say go for conscripts, as this covers (in fluff) a variety of things. On one hand, it takes into account the varying level of ability that a group of underhivers would have, on the other, even hard bitten gangers that are individually pretty damn mean, dont necessarily know how to fight effectively as a large military unit, so that could also cover that. Can you put commissars or similar with conscripts? Possibly using like an arbites character or somthieng as a "counts as" commissar, to represent all these people seeking out or being rounded up by the most senior local authority.

In any case, I really like the concept-kinda makes me wanna dig out Battle for Armagaeddon and move my little tokens around!;)

Ekranoplan
27-07-2008, 17:29
aye 2 platoons. remember many amries of the imperium are just workers and hivers grabbed and thrown into the barracks. and actually since most gangers have some sort of combat ability they would make a decent if albiet poorly disciplined army

In fact, many hiveworlds encourage the gang warfare of the lower levels as it produces hardened fighters. Its great for PDF (especially when a few pesky ork spores find their way into the depths of the hive), and recruitment. But, as you said discipline could be a problem. I am sure the commissars are up the task, plus there are probably plenty of Emperor fearing gangers out there. It probably varies from world to world

Col. Tartleton
27-07-2008, 17:40
They needn't even be 'gangs' they could even be the neighborhood watch equivalent, a group of makeshift law enforcers with varying clothing and guns. Pretty much a hive militia. Not every gang would be a criminal gang, certainly there would be gangs more along the lines of urban brotherhoods. They protect their turf and their families and consider each other their brothers, but still work productive jobs and have a lot to lose in an invasion.

Give them civilian clothing and shotguns/auto guns and theres your conscripts.

Not every city is as rife with crime as Necromunda.

JanusKain
28-07-2008, 02:47
Well everyone, thank you for the awesome replies =D.

It seems the general idea is to have 2 platoons worth (which I can do, and it sounds good to me).


Are the arbites going to be the platoon command or the HQ command?

The arbites are the platoon command and the sergents of each individual squad. The HQ command is going to be the Elysian models. The same will be true of all the veterans ect.

(I just think the Elysian models look more like hive PDF fighters than Cadians).

Once again everyone, thank you for all the input.

starlight
28-07-2008, 02:57
If using Conscripts, you could also convert all of the leadership/special weapons/vox/advisor/etc models to represent the *authority* types with the rest of the *troops*;) being the gangers...

If you use formed platoons, I'd consider having each Squad a Gang in it's own right and keeping the gangs that are traditional opponents in separate Platoons for background reasons...

Very *do-able* with no more than the leadership and specialists as Arbites/PDF...

JanusKain
28-07-2008, 03:57
Right now the overall make up of each squad was going to be as follows:

Sergeant - Arbite
Special Weapon - Gang Leader
Heavy Weapon - Heavy
Loader - Juve
Vox Operator - Juve
Guardsman - Ganger

I think it should work out fairly well =D

Hrw-Amen
28-07-2008, 12:08
I would have thought that the invasion / attack being in the underhive would be enough reason for the gangs to stop fighting and squabbling amongst themselves and start fighting the 'outside' attackers, possibly even beating them off, or being over-run depending on the strength of the adversary maybe even before anyone up in the spire even realises what is going on. I can imagine some rather frantic calls from local level arbites and the like going unheeded for a while whilst those up above just get on with their lives thinking that it is nothing but the usual gang wars getting a bit out of hand and it will all calm down in a few days. Therefore I imagine that most of the troops would be made up of gangers, possibly with only a few local arbites to try and organise what they can by way of resistance.

That is of course assuming it is in a really big huge hive, not some really tiny littel outpost.

Ekranoplan
28-07-2008, 17:24
On Necromunda, gangers are far more likely to attack gangs from an enemy household then there own. If the gangs were all recruited from the same House, like House Orlock or House Cawdor, then I don' think there would be much of a problem with infighting. Discipline would be higher overall.

Col. Tartleton
28-07-2008, 17:47
Off topic whats the difference between a praetor and a Arbiter? are the Praetors the police and Arbiters more like Swat (cause I know they have good armor and weapons.) I'm writing a semi non 40k short story.

It's similar enough that it could be, but I'm not using anything specifically 40k. Ie. The police APC isn't a chimera even though it functions like one and I use the term manstopper to describe the shot gun slug which is entirely appropriate as its a .75 caliber that fires armor piercing slugs. and I'm using similar terms for the police in the city. Praetors are urban cohorts who are sworn to the city and the mayor, and the arbiters are powered ceramic armored special infantry who use even bigger guns then the praetors and are given more technology (a praetor is like a modern day SWAT whereas a Arbiter is like a sci fi SWAT so we're talking multi spectral scanners and all types of cool gadgets.

Anyhow the Arlen (Harlem equivalent) sector (of several thousand people) of the city is having a LA Riotsx10 and the praetors are stepping in with lethal force. And then it starts spreading despite the lock down of the sector which tells central command that the entire city of 100million people is at risk which leads to the use of the arbiters and the appearence of a mysterious figure who is going to be the Arbiters only chance at stopping the spread of the riots.

JanusKain
28-07-2008, 20:02
Off topic whats the difference between a praetor and a Arbiter? are the Praetors the police and Arbiters more like Swat (cause I know they have good armor and weapons.) I'm writing a semi non 40k short story.

It's similar enough that it could be, but I'm not using anything specifically 40k. Ie. The police APC isn't a chimera even though it functions like one and I use the term manstopper to describe the shot gun slug which is entirely appropriate as its a .75 caliber that fires armor piercing slugs. and I'm using similar terms for the police in the city. Praetors are urban cohorts who are sworn to the city and the mayor, and the arbiters are powered ceramic armored special infantry who use even bigger guns then the praetors and are given more technology (a praetor is like a modern day SWAT whereas a Arbiter is like a sci fi SWAT so we're talking multi spectral scanners and all types of cool gadgets.

Anyhow the Arlen (Harlem equivalent) sector (of several thousand people) of the city is having a LA Riotsx10 and the praetors are stepping in with lethal force. And then it starts spreading despite the lock down of the sector which tells central command that the entire city of 100million people is at risk which leads to the use of the arbiters and the appearence of a mysterious figure who is going to be the Arbiters only chance at stopping the spread of the riots.

praetors are the local police and SWAT. The Arbites are the national guard.

The arbites are actually the Adeptus Arbites from the Witch Hunters codex. They are a group whose job is to enforce imperial law. They do not enforce local law. They are grabbed up by inquisitors fairly often. And sometimes work with the local PDF to drive out larger threats. Gangs generally listen to the Arbites, as the local police are usually happy to just let the underhive kill itself off, but the Arbites know that the resources the lower hive families bring in are too valuable to just loose to infighting. They generally let the houses work it out between each other though. (And by work it out, I of course mean shoot each other to death.)

Sai-Lauren
31-07-2008, 15:48
If they're defending their home, then your army could be made up of nothing but gangs.

However, there would be a certain jockeying for positions, and rivalries may well flare up at any time, which could lead to a gang allowing another one to be shot at when they could prevent it, pulling back to cut them off and expose them to an assault, firing into combat without really caring who they hit or just shooting them at the first opportunity.

If all the gangs are from one house (either in the whole army, or in one particular area), the chances of things like that happening are probably less, but you wouldn't want Eschers with Goliaths or Delaques and Orlocks for example. (*)

Likely the platoon leaders would be determined by something like a knife fight to first blood. ;)



Commissars just wouldn't last in such regiments outside the upper levels of command, and arbites would keep their distance, serving more as a beatstick should things get out of hand rather than as part of the officer corps. Not that it can't be done that way, but I don't think that would be common practice, especially since the Arbites and Commissariat are technically independant of the Imperial Guard command structure. A good reason to include Witch Hunter Storm Troopers in your army, at the very least.

I'd say the reverse, such an army would probably have lots of commissars to try and maintain discipline, they'd be closer to a penal legion than a regular army.



If you wanted to add extra background to them, have each squad as it's own gang, go download the Necromunda Rulebooks, and actually make each of the gangs from those rules, then just move them into 40K.

Unfortunatly, that would mean you'd wind up with a lot of unavailable options (Heavy Plasma Guns and Heavy Stubbers for example), also a gang probably wouldn't make a full squad, let alone a platoon.

The Armageddon codex had a hive militia entry - if only it were still valid. :rolleyes:

(*) The exception would be for a Guard army raised from a Hive World.
IMO, each hive on a world like Necromunda or Armageddion will probably have at least one regiment in some state of being raised at any time - population growth alone will allow for an almost constant recruiting process, and by taking the more successful gangers, it will help maintain the balance of power in the underhive and get rid of those who're just a little too violent to return to the family houses.

Again, IMO, the gang conflicts in the underhive are unofficially sanctioned by the houses (so, only covert support is available to them) to further their own interests, be they the capture/destruction of manufacturing facilities, settlements or trade routes (taxation for the people living there or passing through), assassinations or protection of family members who need to be hidden away for whatever reason, recovery of valuable items, or preventing other houses from doing the same to them.

Eventually, the gang will return back to their families, and be given roles within the families interests, the exact position depending on how well they've done in the hive.

But, by the time they've been through basic training, any rivalries will probably have been trained and/or beaten out of them, so you could well have a squad where the heavy weapon gunner is a former Goliath gang member, the sergeant's an Orlock and the guy with the radio on his back is a Van Saar.

talos935
31-07-2008, 23:30
Arbites never serve on their home planet.
I was thinking, that you could have a platoon reprosenting gangs of the same houe pooling together. The sergeants would be 'gang leaders' and the platoon command would be a 'gang lord' [bit like Nemo the Faceless] with his cronies ass a body guard.

Arbites would make potentially good stormtroopers or vets with carapace armour doctrine. Also Arbites use repressors [Forge World model], which iirc is a rhino with six firing ports [three either side, like the chimera's lasguns except you can fire any weapon]. Also if you use some gangers you could claim them to be one of teh 'gang' companies like in the Necromundan IG where they have stuff like the 5th company are known as 'The Spiders' and the 27th are know as 'The Skins', because of their gang names/nicknames.

pookie
01-08-2008, 10:31
Use as many as you feel, there is no fluff either way to say whats right or wrong.

A entire regiment conscripted from gangers, the Spider Clan is used on Necromunda, and armed by the Hive rulers to keep other gangs in line and provide resources for regiments, so go for it, use as many as you can.



Arbites would make potentially good stormtroopers or vets with carapace armour doctrine. Also Arbites use repressors [Forge World model], which iirc is a rhino with six firing ports [three either side, like the chimera's lasguns except you can fire any weapon]. Also if you use some gangers you could claim them to be one of teh 'gang' companies like in the Necromundan IG where they have stuff like the 5th company are known as 'The Spiders' and the 27th are know as 'The Skins', because of their gang names/nicknames.

The SPiders are the 8th, not 5th.

where did you get the info on the 27th from? ( im building a Gaurd Regiment based on the 8th, but id change if to another if i could find info on the Necromundian regiments.

t-tauri
01-08-2008, 11:22
The very old Rogue Trader fluff would see a sweep of the lower hive being made to "recruit" as many gangers as possible like a Royal Navy Press Gang. These would then be bundled into a troop ship and trained en route to the warzone. Gets a regiment already experienced for cityfights and small unit tactics.

If the hive is being attacked like on Armageddon there could be tens of thousands of gangers and others defending the hive. I'd expect very little friction between the gangs in the face of a horde of Orks.

You could easily have an entire regiment recruited from gangers like many of the Necromundan ones where the gang loyalties have been replaced by a regimental loyalty or you could have an army where the gangs are freshly recruited and still operating as individual small groups. Either approach is perfectly reasonable.

Angelwing
01-08-2008, 11:44
Basically you could have as many platoons as you think is right within your own theme and army background. As other posters have said, a mix of gangers and pdf, arbite controlled press gangs and wholesale guard recruitment are reasonable.
My entire guard army is composed of necromunda escher that have been recruited by an inquisitor. They have small squads of arbites to 'maintain order'.

Sai-Lauren
01-08-2008, 12:20
My entire guard army is composed of necromunda escher that have been recruited by an inquisitor. They have small squads of arbites to 'maintain order'.

When mail order bring them back, I'll be doing a second company for my Escher guard, although they're from a more rural world (my back story is that it's an agri-world, but there's something in the environment which means that a high proportion of the children born are girls, so they're recruited into the guard rather than taking the few males they do have).

And the only man in the army is a Leman Russ tank. :D

talos935
01-08-2008, 21:19
Use as many as you feel, there is no fluff either way to say whats right or wrong.

A entire regiment conscripted from gangers, the Spider Clan is used on Necromunda, and armed by the Hive rulers to keep other gangs in line and provide resources for regiments, so go for it, use as many as you can.



The SPiders are the 8th, not 5th.

where did you get the info on the 27th from? ( im building a Gaurd Regiment based on the 8th, but id change if to another if i could find info on the Necromundian regiments.

I'll admit I was just pulling half remembered things out at random. I'll stand corrected about the Spiders and I doubt The Skins are a real gang/regiment, but I think you catch my drift.