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Rabid Bunny 666
23-04-2005, 12:54
i just thought about it for a minute

the banner was made by the emperor and it self-repairs, but how could the ultramarines change the image on the banner to the tyranid? wouldn't the banner just change back?

DantesInferno
23-04-2005, 13:35
Well, either the banner was designed to show an Ultramarine fighting an alien which just happens to bear a striking resemblance to a Genestealer (by some extraordinary coincidence, I'm pretty sure 'stealers or their ancestors weren't around in the Great Crusade), or the actual banner pole itself has remained the same whilst the Ultramarines change the banner painting.

For my mind, the most likely answer is that someone at GW wanted to remind us of the Tyranid/Ultramarine link back in 2nd ed, and when the background was changed so that it was the same banner since the Crusade, no-one bothered to change the actual design of the banner itself,

Rabid Bunny 666
23-04-2005, 20:04
but the 'nids have only been in the galaxy in the 40th millenium, it makes little sense that they could change a repairing banner :confused:

Morgan Keyes
23-04-2005, 20:39
One could conjecture that the banner is made of archeo-tech materials, in this case a "fabric" made up of smart material, ie., micro-machines. Certainly the principals are at best poorly understood by the current time frame of WH40K. But those in whose care the banner rests have enough knowledge, steeped in pseudo-religious and ritualistic trappings of course, on how to program the smart material of the banner to adjust the image (and certainly never done lightly).

The pestilent 1
23-04-2005, 23:33
or its just some uber plasma screen and it gets redone now and then by some admech on paint?

or probably somthing similar but not quite so stupid sounding.

Inquisitor Engel
24-04-2005, 01:52
Actually, this is the fourth Chapter Banner of Macragge. It was changed and altered after the battle of Macragge. Since it has only now been deemed worthy to be carried into battle, this is the first time it has seen it.

The one before was the banner carried by Ancient Galatan at the seige of Corinth, and the others were changed after major, major battles in the Ultramarines' history, probably the first Crusade against the Charadon Orks, and one after the second founding.

sulla
24-04-2005, 03:54
i just thought about it for a minute

the banner was made by the emperor and it self-repairs, but how could the ultramarines change the image on the banner to the tyranid? wouldn't the banner just change back?

where does it say that the chapter banner was made by the emperor?

Brother Munro
24-04-2005, 11:06
The model doesn't show the actual banner. A while ago they published rules for the ancient in White Dwarf, next to it was the story of how Cassius had allowed it to be carried once more. It is described as being big, with a large Ultramarines Omega in gold on it, with the names of every chapter master since Guilliman. The current model is probably the interim one made after the Battle of Macragge, hence why it is just an ordinary chapter banner rather than the old rules for the Banner of Macragge (which were helluva cool). I don't recal anything about the banner being made by the Emperor, but it would have been made when he was around.

Captain Blood
24-04-2005, 22:48
If you look at page 71 of the second edition rulebook, it shows the chapter banners for the Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. It's got the same banner as the model right now. Chapter Approved says the banner was touched by the Emperor's hand when he presented it to Guilliman, but that's all, nothing about it being made by him.

My bet is that the banner just shows a random alien thingy that happens to look like a stealer getting shot to death; either that, or it IS a genestealer. Those things were around on Ymgarl moons well before the Tyranid swarms set foot in the galaxy after all.

Brother Othorio
24-04-2005, 23:25
i was always of the impression that Genestealers arrived at least a few thousand years before the Hive Fleets, having them around at the time of the Great Crusade wouldnt upset the fluff in any great way

Koraath
25-04-2005, 01:34
according to insignium astartes all the chapters have several banners as they will eventually get old and worn out and are then placed in the great hall of the chapter monastery and that new banners are fabricated in honour of great victories or mighty heroes who have fallen in battle

sulla
25-04-2005, 07:35
If you look at page 71 of the second edition rulebook, it shows the chapter banners for the Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. It's got the same banner as the model right now. Chapter Approved says the banner was touched by the Emperor's hand when he presented it to Guilliman, but that's all, nothing about it being made by him.
.


Oh, is that all? In that case, let me fill in the story before GW have to make it up.

It is the original Ultra's banner, but after each campaign, it is embellished (hence all the heraldry on the lower half). The 'stealer relief was added after the battle of macragge over the top of the previous design..

How's that?

Inquisitor Engel
25-04-2005, 07:48
Oh, is that all? In that case, let me fill in the story before GW have to make it up.
Dammit, does no one listen to me?


Actually, this is the fourth Chapter Banner of Macragge. It was changed and altered after the battle of Macragge. Since it has only now been deemed worthy to be carried into battle, this is the first time it has seen it.

The one before was the banner carried by Ancient Galatan at the seige of Corinth, and the others were changed after major, major battles in the Ultramarines' history, probably the first Crusade against the Charadon Orks, and one after the second founding.
That's why it's there. That's why it's different. The end.