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IG_Airborne_Ranger
28-07-2008, 06:05
I'm confused here, the Eldar can't travel to the warp but use the webway instead to travel across the galaxy right? So am I wrong to assume that there are these giant Webway gates floating in space for Eldar ships to enter and travel into and out of the webway?

Bregalad
28-07-2008, 07:54
Eldar are easy prey for Chaos if travelling unprotected through the warp. So they constructed the webway with barriers holding off daemons. Passages in the webway are of different sizes, most are quite small. Webway portals to hold spaceships or even craftworlds exist but are very rare.

Poseidal
28-07-2008, 08:12
The Webway was constructed far before the fall when Eldar didn't face such risks. It was created as a faster, more efficient means of travel than plain Warp travel to places that they have been to before (or to transportable webway gates).

They largely use the webway to transport ships to a site near the location, but employ very light warp travel (due to new risks, no astronomicon) to reach the final target if no webway gate is available there.

Obviously they prefer not to use this. Plain warp travel is currently the forte of the Imperium but even they face problems using it.

Francis29
28-07-2008, 08:29
Eldar can travel threough the warp, they just prefer not to, they use the webway to get to most places but if they need o go somewhere and there is'nt a webway gate they use warp travel form the closest webway gate.

pookie
28-07-2008, 08:40
Eldar can travel threough the warp, they just prefer not to, they use the webway to get to most places but if they need o go somewhere and there is'nt a webway gate they use warp travel form the closest webway gate.

A Webway gate, is access to the Webway, not the Warp. Eldar cannot travel via the Warp. ( its either a slow float through space, of use of webway as explained above ).

Idaan
28-07-2008, 08:45
A Webway gate, is access to the Webway, not the Warp. Eldar cannot travel via the Warp. ( its either a slow float through space, of use of webway as explained above ).Wrong, they can make Warp jumps using Warp engines just as humans do, but it is much more dangerous for them due to the 'brightness' of Eldar soul in the Warp. So they use it only when in dire need (for example when the planet they want to get on has no functioning Webway gate).

Francis29
28-07-2008, 08:47
Wrong, they can make Warp jumps using Warp engines just as humans do, but it is much more dangerous for them due to the 'brightness' of Eldar soul in the Warp. So they use it only when in dire need (for example when the planet they want to get on has no functioning Webway gate).

Exactly what i was trying to say :)

pookie
28-07-2008, 12:11
Wrong, they can make Warp jumps using Warp engines just as humans do, but it is much more dangerous for them due to the 'brightness' of Eldar soul in the Warp. So they use it only when in dire need (for example when the planet they want to get on has no functioning Webway gate).

i always thought they didnt travel in that way because of the reason you stated ( but that they Never travelled that way, rather than only when in dire need), so a Webway gate can access both the Web and Warp? or is it a diffrent form of Webway gate that access the Warp?

Poseidal
28-07-2008, 12:24
i always thought they didnt travel in that way because of the reason you stated ( but that they Never travelled that way, rather than only when in dire need), so a Webway gate can access both the Web and Warp? or is it a diffrent form of Webway gate that access the Warp?

A Webway gate can access the webway.

An Eldar ship can use a Webway gate or it's own Warp drive.

The preferred way of travel is A -> Webway -> B

When this is not possible, they usually resort to A -> Webway -> Warp travel -> B

The latter being much more dangerous.

Kage2020
28-07-2008, 12:29
I'm confused here, the Eldar can't travel to the warp...
As others have pointed out, most, if not all, Eldar ships are equipped to be able to travel through the warp via "conventional" means. They do not, however, for the also already stated reasons of the "brightness" of their soul. (Something that, if followed through, should make the Tau in a warp-drive one of the more dangerous forces in the 40k galaxy. GW as ever tends not to follow through with the logic of these situations, trusting to the acceptance of the illogical as logical through the fallacy of the warp. ;))


So am I wrong to assume that there are these giant Webway gates floating in space for Eldar ships to enter and travel into and out of the webway?
While webway portals have a physical anchor on planets for whatever reason (some "techno-sorcerous" reason or it's just easier to find a door when you can see the blighter), in space no one can hear... Erm, sorry. The portals in space do not appear to have a physical anchor ala the Babylon 5 approach, or even to have a predictable location (at least predictable given Imperial understanding of the technology and science behind the Webway).

Erm, just to answer the question directly.

As to the rarity of Webway portals of sufficient size to allow the transportation of starships, personnel, and even Craftworlds? That really depends on your interpretation, through the standard Image-focused approach for the "dying race" is that, as Bregelad says, they are rare. Or, at least, as rare as the narrative requires (which is to say rare unless someone needs to use it as a plot device, in which case there will be one handily hanging around).

Kage

pookie
28-07-2008, 13:05
A Webway gate can access the webway.

An Eldar ship can use a Webway gate or it's own Warp drive.

The preferred way of travel is A -> Webway -> B

When this is not possible, they usually resort to A -> Webway -> Warp travel -> B

The latter being much more dangerous.

ah, ok, ta, did confuse me as prev it was said they used the Webway Gate, so its internal Warp drives to the Craftworld/Ship.

Eryx_UK
28-07-2008, 13:51
Does webway travel have the time variable that regualr warp travel suffers from?

pookie
28-07-2008, 14:11
Does webway travel have the time variable that regualr warp travel suffers from?

no, the webway is in a dimension between real space and the Warp, it can take time to travel, so it isnt instant ( ie you still have to walk to where your going ) but it doesnt have time distortion ( afaik ) that you can suffer when in the Warp.

Azriel45
28-07-2008, 15:15
i'm pretty sure the Eldar use warp travel a fair amount just not on the scale everyone is thinking. WARP SPIDERS anyone.
so obviously they can travel the warp and are willing to.

pookie
28-07-2008, 15:23
i'm pretty sure the Eldar use warp travel a fair amount just not on the scale everyone is thinking. WARP SPIDERS anyone.
so obviously they can travel the warp and are willing to.

whilst thats true, they do only use there Warp packs for small Jumps ( hence the perils they suffer with extending these jumps )

xiophen
28-07-2008, 15:56
As others have pointed out, most, if not all, Eldar ships are equipped to be able to travel through the warp via "conventional" means. They do not, however, for the also already stated reasons of the "brightness" of their soul. (Something that, if followed through, should make the Tau in a warp-drive one of the more dangerous forces in the 40k galaxy. GW as ever tends not to follow through with the logic of these situations, trusting to the acceptance of the illogical as logical through the fallacy of the warp. ;))


While webway portals have a physical anchor on planets for whatever reason (some "techno-sorcerous" reason or it's just easier to find a door when you can see the blighter), in space no one can hear... Erm, sorry. The portals in space do not appear to have a physical anchor ala the Babylon 5 approach, or even to have a predictable location (at least predictable given Imperial understanding of the technology and science behind the Webway).

Erm, just to answer the question directly.

As to the rarity of Webway portals of sufficient size to allow the transportation of starships, personnel, and even Craftworlds? That really depends on your interpretation, through the standard Image-focused approach for the "dying race" is that, as Bregelad says, they are rare. Or, at least, as rare as the narrative requires (which is to say rare unless someone needs to use it as a plot device, in which case there will be one handily hanging around).

Kage


I always the fluff hinted at their vessels having the ability to make thier own gate into the webway and out built into the vessels ala something simular to the whole bab 5 gateway thing.

As for the rarity of the eldar remember in the new rule book w get something like 32k hive world s wth a population of 150 some odd billion apiece that easily multiple quidrillions of people on those planets alone. let alone the hundreds of thousands of other systems.

A dyng race on a galactic scale need to be properly referenced your probably talk billions of eldar still living as well still much more then the tau bu far les then the humans, orks, nids etc..

Kage2020
28-07-2008, 16:37
I always the fluff hinted at their vessels having the ability to make thier own gate into the webway and out built into the vessels ala something simular to the whole bab 5 gateway thing.
I was referring to the static jump gates rather than the ability to form your own jump gates.

Kage

xiophen
28-07-2008, 20:16
I was referring to the static jump gates rather than the ability to form your own jump gates.

Kage




K wasnt crertain why I replied :)

DarkAzrael169
28-07-2008, 21:28
Lets get our vocabulary correct here.

Webway: A webway portal is an entrance to what can be described as a series of tunnels or pathways that have been created inside the warp. It is possible for daemons to break through into these tunnels and has been stated before but is very rare. The tunnels vary in size. The webway was created long before the Fall of the Eldar as a means to get across the warp more safely and efficiently. As with other technologies, the Eldar no longer know how to build it(Expand it, in this case), as it is far to complicated for them to comprehend using their limiting path system.

Kage2020
28-07-2008, 22:22
Of course, that fits into the "dying race" approach to the Eldar (which is the GW approach), but I think it's a bit harsh to suggest that they no longer understand the Webway. Indeed, 'expanding it' might be covered in Watson's Harlequin.

But there we go.

Kage

Idaan
29-07-2008, 09:22
As with other technologies, the Eldar no longer know how to build it(Expand it, in this case), as it is far to complicated for them to comprehend using their limiting path system.
A proof maybe?

All evidence seems to be contrary to that. For example the deployment of man-portable small Webway portals by Harlequins, Dark Eldar and Ulthwe strike forces. The Storm Serpent which uses a bigger portable gate was created post-Fall too. The Eldar don't seem to have any problem with opening or closing the existing Webway portals either, for example on Baran, Medusa V or whatever. All background suggests their deep understanding of portal technology and none of this Imperial mumbo-jumbo.

The lack of direct evidence of Eldar creating new portals seems to be tied to the fact that they're always defending in published GW fluff (or using 'best defence is attack' tactics), which means they're fighting on worlds with already working (or working but malfunctioning) Webway portals.

I'd imagine that once they have to fight a war on a world without Webway access they only send out a small team via normal Warp travel which then opens a portal planetside, so that the souls of troops are not put into risks during the travel.

Caelnaethon
29-07-2008, 10:20
no, the webway is in a dimension between real space and the Warp, it can take time to travel, so it isnt instant ( ie you still have to walk to where your going ) but it doesnt have time distortion ( afaik ) that you can suffer when in the Warp.
It doesn't, however, take as long as actually travelling the distance (otherwise it wouldn't be all that practical for interstellar travel. :p) I don't think it's never been explained exactly why; it seems that although the Webway doesn't distort time, it does make use of the distorted space of the Warp, to provide a sort of short-cut across the distance.


As with other technologies, the Eldar no longer know how to build it(Expand it, in this case), as it is far to complicated for them to comprehend using their limiting path system.
Which other technologies do the Eldar no longer know how to make? And how is this a result of the Path?


whilst thats true, they do only use there Warp packs for small Jumps ( hence the perils they suffer with extending these jumps )
Well, to be fair, the Warp is pretty perilous at the best of times. Probably more so for Eldar, but even some Space Marines are fairly reluctant about teleporting into battle.

DarkAzrael169
30-07-2008, 20:05
Of course, that fits into the "dying race" approach to the Eldar (which is the GW approach), but I think it's a bit harsh to suggest that they no longer understand the Webway. Indeed, 'expanding it' might be covered in Watson's Harlequin.

But there we go.

Kage

Ya thats the problem I have with GW and Eldar. Because of "the Fall", they are pretty much as backwords as the Imperium in that they don't technologicaly advance. :(

DarkAzrael169
30-07-2008, 20:08
A proof maybe?

All evidence seems to be contrary to that. For example the deployment of man-portable small Webway portals by Harlequins, Dark Eldar and Ulthwe strike forces. The Storm Serpent which uses a bigger portable gate was created post-Fall too. The Eldar don't seem to have any problem with opening or closing the existing Webway portals either, for example on Baran, Medusa V or whatever. All background suggests their deep understanding of portal technology and none of this Imperial mumbo-jumbo.

The lack of direct evidence of Eldar creating new portals seems to be tied to the fact that they're always defending in published GW fluff (or using 'best defence is attack' tactics), which means they're fighting on worlds with already working (or working but malfunctioning) Webway portals.

I'd imagine that once they have to fight a war on a world without Webway access they only send out a small team via normal Warp travel which then opens a portal planetside, so that the souls of troops are not put into risks during the travel.

Ooh. Damn, I just remembered what book I read that fluff from... Warrior Coven by C.S. Gotto :rolleyes: My bad.

Ubermensch Commander
30-07-2008, 20:49
Ooh. Damn, I just remembered what book I read that fluff from... Warrior Coven by C.S. Gotto :rolleyes: My bad.

ooohhhhhhh.....ick. Goto. Yeah disregard ANYTHING he writes. Matter of Fact, treat it as complete falsehoods.

WHY was that author(using term loosely) allowed to put pen to paper? WHY?

On the note of Interstellar Eldar travel, yes...yes they can. Usually via Webway(quickest, easiest, safest) but i am fairly certain they can do conventional interstellar travel as well. They do have Corsair fleets after all, which are independent of the Craftworlds and their ship sized Webway portals.

Kal Taron
31-07-2008, 10:08
IIRC in 2nd Edition it sounded like the Eldar had inherited the Webway from the Old Ones and made only a few additions to it without really understanding the whole thing.
Newer fluff and rules suggest higher understanding. (portable portals are quite new AFAIK)

As for the flow of time: wasn't there a bit in old fluff that there may be regions in the webway where the flow of time is different? I remember reading something that there are speculated areas where time might stagnate (Phoenix Lords were supposed to stay there sometimes) or even flow backwards (big secret that only Great Harlequins or even Cegorach himself only know).

Kage2020
31-07-2008, 14:28
Ya thats the problem I have with GW and Eldar. Because of "the Fall", they are pretty much as backwords as the Imperium in that they don't technologicaly advance.
"Golden Ageism" is, however, one of the central themes of the 40k universe and is therefore something that crops up time and time again. Everyone needs to have their own version of a fall, apparently, and for reasons of Wargame Balance they all end up more or less at the same level ("The bigger they are, the harder they fall..." etc.).


Fact, treat it as complete falsehoods.

WHY was that author(using term loosely) allowed to put pen to paper? WHY?
Do we have to revisit the Goto bashing? Again?


IIRC in 2nd Edition it sounded like the Eldar had inherited the Webway from the Old Ones and made only a few additions to it without really understanding the whole thing.
Half of that is true. The Eldar are described as taking up the technology of the Old Slann, perfecting it and refining it into the Webway. At that edition of writing, their development of psychic engineering was such that they were one of the few races (which didn't include humanity!) that had made the leap between the warp and psykers. (Now, of coure, it's another central theme so everyone and their dog knows about it.)

So, yes they did inherit it. They improved upon it to form the Webway, and they did understand it. And their understanding of it actually not only rivaled but went beyond that of the Old Slann themselves.

Newer 'fluff' seems to push creation back to the Old Ones, with a commensurate "loss" of understanding on behalf of the Eldar. Or, at least, that seems to be the common interpretation. (Me? I think that the original could still hold with some minor tweaking.)


As for the flow of time: wasn't there a bit in old fluff that there may be regions in the webway where the flow of time is different?
Yes, or basically the Eldar "Theory of Uigbealach" (sp.?), which posits that there might be a place in the Webway where time actually reverses and flows backward. Other than that, there are places within the Webway where times slow down, or the so-called "Crossroads of Inertia."

Kage