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Yamabushi
29-07-2008, 06:40
Hi All,

I was wondering how each of the playable sides fight their war, specifically between Chaos Astartes and Loyalists. The codexes, rulebooks and fluff doesn't really give me an idea on how different the two sides are. Hmm, for arguments sake, lets take a "standard" chapter against a "standard" Chaos Warband / Legion. From the Chaos section in the 5th Ed rulebook, Abaddon appears to be using tactics that I can see normal chapters using when assaulting the Fortress of the Marines Errant.

So how exactly different are they really?

EDIT: OOPS! Wrong title! Should be 41st Millenium..what a big boo boo over my fave game *kicks self in nuts*
Edit: Fixed it for you - Auzu

Francis29
29-07-2008, 07:29
If you take a "Standard" legion to be the black legion then they use a spearhead formation IIFC, they strike at the command centre of the target - decapitating it.

A "Standard" chapter fights in different ways depending on the tactics of the enemy. I think the most common tactic is similar to the spearhead - it was thought up by Horus after all and the smurfs would have included it in their great book of tactics as Horus conquered the most worlds for the Emporer (then tried to steal them back)

Yamabushi
29-07-2008, 07:39
So given a situation, both Loyalist and Traitor Astartes would employ similar tactics? Maybe with some slight variations, e.g. Deep striking Daemons VS Deep striking Terminators, etc etc.

pookie
29-07-2008, 08:49
So given a situation, both Loyalist and Traitor Astartes would employ similar tactics? Maybe with some slight variations, e.g. Deep striking Daemons VS Deep striking Terminators, etc etc.

Esentially yes, after all they are still Marines, just of diffrent views, tried and tested tactics work, so why change them.

but there are still slight diffrences in tactics depending on the chapter, Take the Ultra Marines and Black Templars.

Whilst both will employ the same way of getting planet side ie Drop Pod/Thunder Hawk, once on the ground the BT are much more likly to run at the Enemy ( in a tactical way of course ) than the UM, who will do extensive recon etc before launching a attack ( although im not saying the BT attack blindly ) the UM will use a lot more ranged fire power than the BT who would pref to close in with the enemy before attacking up close.

Lord-Caerolion
29-07-2008, 08:49
Probably, although it seems to me that the main difference between the two is that while they both employ similiar tactics, their method of moving strategically differs, meaning how they move their armies in the grand scheme of things. Of course, this doesn't translate into 40k so well, but comes across slightly.
The Loyalists can draw upon a stronger fleet presence, and as such will be able to use things such as drop-pods more often as well as Thunderhawk Transporters to move their guys around. Teleportation is not as common, I think, being reserved mainly for Terminators. Scouts will be dropped into a warzone before the Marines main force deploys, in order to scout the enemies positions.
Chaos, on the other hand, generally doesn't have as strong of a fleet presence, but has the knowledge of the Warp in order to move troops and tanks. Members of the population are often converted in order to gain local knowledge and supply bases, covering some of the purposes of Scouts. Daemons and Marines can be teleported/summoned into position, often right on top of the enemy.

As such, the main difference between the two is that Chaos is able to attack much quicker, for longer. Troops are able to be continually moved near instantaneously via the Warp, whereas the Loyalists have to rely upon their vehicles, whether that be Thunderhawks or their Drop Pods. In this sense, the Loyalists have an advantage, as only they seem to have an ability to rapidly withdraw from an area, whereas Chaos would have to rely on either DreadClaws, which depends on a fleet presence, or on teleportation, which would probably be hard to implement mid-battle.

So yeah, to sum up, Chaos hits hard and quickly, but probably has a hard time getting out, whereas the Loyalists hit a slight bit slower, but will almost always have the resources to strategically withdraw. Both seem to favour the old "cut off the head and the body will die" type tactic, with surgical strikes at the enemies leadership.

Yamabushi
29-07-2008, 09:04
Thank you Lord-Caerolion, that was very informative!


So yeah, to sum up, Chaos hits hard and quickly, but probably has a hard time getting out, whereas the Loyalists hit a slight bit slower, but will almost always have the resources to strategically withdraw. Both seem to favour the old "cut off the head and the body will die" type tactic, with surgical strikes at the enemies leadership.

So applying your summary, assume a scenario where everyone has to take control of say, a hostile planet:

Chaos would convert the population subtly, start a civil war, and launch an attack amidst the unrest against the ruling authority. The subsequent collapse of control would then quickly tip the scales in their favor.

Space Marines would recon the place, drop-pod in to wipe out the ruling authority, pulling back, then dropping in again to lauch surgical strikes against targets of high priority.

Guard would probably start with orbital bombardments and then launch wave upon wave of infantry, tanks and artillery to batter the world into submission.

Orks...well, we know how Orks work. :p

Eldar and Dark Eldar do not capture worlds, do they? So far I haven't seen / read an instance on them actually capturing a world.

What would the Tau do once they establish space superiority?

Lord-Caerolion
29-07-2008, 09:39
You've got the races there perfect, at least as much as I understand them.

As for the Tau, if a propaganda campaign doesn't work, and once air superiority was established, I'd say that the Tau would unleash a series of lightning raids to remove the enemies capabilities of striking back effectively.Given their dislike of causing unnecessary casualties, I'd say they would launch strikes at air bases, naval ports, surface-to-air batteries, and possibly military barracks.
In other words, a show of force to cripple the enemies military strength, while leaving as much infrastructure and personnel intact as possible. After this has been completed, further chances to surrender would be offered, to get them to join the Greater Good.
If this was rejected again, I'd say that depending on the commander in question, and the Coalitions view on the race in question, then any number of further raids would be launched, until either the race submits, or the Coalitions patience runs out, at which point infantry would be unleashed, in the aims of wiping the uncooperative race out. Air strikes would no doubt accompany this, along with assaults from the various allied races present in the Tau Fleet in question.

legio mortis
29-07-2008, 15:01
Guard would probably start with orbital bombardments and then launch wave upon wave of infantry, tanks and artillery to batter the world into submission.
Well, that's a very, very simplistic way too look at it. How they fight is all going to depend on the enemy, terrain, conditions and forces present.

Yamabushi
30-07-2008, 04:12
Well, that's a very, very simplistic way too look at it. How they fight is all going to depend on the enemy, terrain, conditions and forces present.

Indeed I was oversimplifying, as I'm looking at a more general approach. The "flavor" of each race, if you will. The Guard is so diverse that I'm sure there are specialists for any kind of situation possible.

So a Planetary Assault would, IMO, work something like that. I've read somewhere that Guard has no need of scouts - they just shell the place and send in the men. :D

legio mortis
30-07-2008, 06:08
So a Planetary Assault would, IMO, work something like that.
By the way you wrote it, I guess, but as the way you meant it, not really. There's a nice overview of a planetary assault in the Tactica Imperialis book. Basically, they find their targets, their invasion site, and target anti-ship weapons with their own batteries or sabateurs. Then dropships deploy light infantry to initially clear and mark the drop zones. Think pathfinders from WW2. Then tanks land and blitz towards the objective. Infantry soon follow.



I've read somewhere that Guard has no need of scouts - they just shell the place and send in the men. :D
Har har har.

heretics bane
25-08-2008, 17:04
Imperial Guard:Precise bombing raids followed by infantry assult
Marines:Precise strikes a key ponts followed by back up troops
Chaos marines:depending on legion
Eldar:light and fast wit a heavy punch.
Dark eldar:extremly fast with a nasty sting

tez
26-08-2008, 05:31
For IG it would proably be a crush the enemies in numbers kind of thing.

Drogmir
26-08-2008, 05:37
Well don't forget there's really no such thing as "standard" imperial Guard, only the cadians are the closest thing to standard, each major IG faction has their own way of running things.

Catachans= Ambush hit and run tactics
DKoK= Massive Bombing followed by surge in men
Armageddon Steel Legion= Mechanized army, WW2 Blitzkrieg tactics

tez
26-08-2008, 05:43
In the book "Dark apostle" the Elysians seemed to die in their thousands everyday against chaos. It says how it takes forever to take out just one chaos space marine.

Brother Siccarius
26-08-2008, 06:28
Taking a standard space marine chapter on the offensive:

Spearhead assault into specific and tactically important targets (supply chains, Ammo Dumps, HQ, ect), often as part of a larger force including PDF and/or Guard.


Taking a standard Chaos Space Marine warband on the offensive:

Use traitors, cultists, or mutants as the standard light infantry, assault from a hidden or unexpected angle to catch the enemy in the flank or in a crossfire, however you like to put it. Alternatively, disperse among "the flock" and take to the battlefield as shock troops. Summon demons as limited shock troops to turn an enemy's flank or just send the weak and frightened packing.

It's somewhat important to note that Chaos Marines will rarely work in large numbers together, though it's not well represented in the codex. Instead, they will more often than not form their own warbands of several chaos marines, with chosen followers consisting of traitors, mutants, and cultists.

Abaddonshand
26-08-2008, 22:03
Tyranids; Infiltrate via genestealer cults, send in sporemines and gargoyles and lictors, followed by warriors, gaunts (any/all breeds required to take the planet) and biovores, zoanthropes etc, backed up by the odd carnifex or tyrant, then large numbers of MCs, bio-titans to deal with anything else (hell, if the above lot can't crack a pdf, your gonna need biotitans ;)), then rippers to eat the biomass (flora and fauna) then hiveships to eat the sea, atmosphere and rippers et al (at this point in digestion pools).

Necrons; Phase in, kill everyone, phase out.