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MrBigMr
29-07-2008, 22:05
Lets talk about them.
In the context of 40K, naturally.

We all know what human women look like and how they work (or we think we know). We know that Eldar women are pretty much Eldar men with woman's naughty bits. But what about all the other races?

Tau women work with the men it seems. But there's no real anything said about whether or not they're more feminin in form (Shadowsun is, but the Ethereal in Xenology isn't (though she's rather old, so that can account for her lack of looks). The slit on their forehead is another thing. Shadowsun has a Y-shaped one, but there's nothing saying it's somehow special, so I'm left to assume that it has to be common. Common to both men and women, or just women. There's also no mentioning of possible mammary glands, though down stairs seems to be similar in function (and general shape?)

Kroot. They're birds (or close enough), so I doubt they have breasts to signify gender. Are females smaller or larger than males? Any special feature (wider hip, different formation of quills, different in color). Are they in any special position or restrictions in what positions they can have (man hunt, woman make me a sandwich)? And do they turn out live babies of eggs?

Orks. They have non. Sucks to be an Ork.

Vespid. I remember that the women are bigger and tougher, but seeing that they're not presented in the game (or are their size and toughness something that doesn't relate into 40K?), do they have a special function in the society?

Any other possible race, as I'm too tired to list them all.

Anardakil
29-07-2008, 22:16
It makes me grumpy that humanity is still patriarchal in the 41st milennium : P

Anyway I'd like to think that the Tau males and females look quite alike : ) Half of those fire warriors are female if you ask me ^^

Lotan
29-07-2008, 22:26
All necron females are lords, once a month they go on a rampage through the galaxy dragging along their male warriors. Sound familiar, the shuffling along of feet and the sullen gaze, only perking up when someone offends their lord and master with a "hang on a minute mate...watch your mouth"....sounds like being dragged to the shops/night out by the lady.

I'm sorry, too easy, joking btw....well....take it how you like....

Bregalad
29-07-2008, 23:37
On Kroot: Female Kroot look similar to male Kroot, no biological need for wider hips as babies are "regurgulated" (no sexual organs "down below"). From the official WD article "Index Kroot":


Kroot reproduce by the male placing his hands upon a female's back and secreting an oily sweat containing his genetic structure. The DNA of the male is merged with that of the female and the resultant infants grow within one of the female's nymune organs until they are ready to be born. In much the same way as indigestible food is disposed of, the females regurgitate the Kroot infants. A Kroot female can give birth to seven or eight infants each year, though only around a quarter of those will survive to adulthood. Once born, the energy stored within the mother's nymunes serves to provide the stimulus required for the Kroot young to begin their accelerated growth. The young Kroot mature at an astonishing rate, with most new-borns able to take their place within the kindred before their tenth year. Kroot family groupings care for, and protect, their young for several years, until they are strong enough to fend for themselves and begin establishing their own family.

On Tau, we only have two text sources (Fire Warrior and Xenology) and one miniature. We know that the pic in Xenology contains mistakes (no hooves), but all secondary sexual organs are either hidden (cloth) or already dissected (breasts), so no clue here. The text says that Tau and human physiology are basically the same. In Fire Warrior there are only small hints, as Kai's has female collegues in his unit and admires a female ethereal. They can be distinguished, but no details are given IIRC. The miniature only shows the different shaped organ on the forehead, no other details are distinguishable. This fan-made concept ( http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126159 ) is not official, but seems not contradicting what we know.

On Vespids: The Vespid squad leader (miniature) is female. Female Vespids are indeed larger than males and constitute the ruling caste.

Number 24
29-07-2008, 23:41
I thought the slit on the forehead was supposedly common to all ethereals, that it released a pheromone-like chemical which made it easier for the ethereals to control the other Tau castes, and this method of control was how the Tau were able to unify and start serving the greater good.

I'm pretty new to 40k, but that was what I gathered from reading Tau fluff.

Killgore
29-07-2008, 23:51
We know that Eldar women are pretty much Eldar men with woman's naughty bits. But what about all the other races?



you dont know that, they might have giant stonkers which they chase male eldar around with

Adra
30-07-2008, 00:01
I always assumed that due to their method or reproduction there was no gender split in kroot past the difference between a regular carnivor and a shaper, but i guess there may be complexity to the process i didnt consider.

The vespid squad leader being female is a nice idea, all the other drones are just puny men.

PondaNagura
30-07-2008, 00:06
hmm, i'd be curious how one explains the birds n bees to an ork boy...if you can get them to sit still without a study thump to dah noggin.

"you 'umies put dah pointy stikk part where? wells wats dat for, why not dah 'ead....i put all my 'eads on my pointy stikk!"

i figure there would be little gender-separation in eldar society, since their ruling caste can be male/female, and a dieing race really can't be too picky.
nids seem to me to not really need any kind of genders, and norn queen seems more like a title due to it's role in similar lifeforms from ancient terra.

Lotan
30-07-2008, 00:07
And I believe the eldar reproduce over four seperate stages at different times of development. Personally, I'd have a bounce on a howling banshee, but the ensuing headache from the screaming would eventually annoy me.

Feor
30-07-2008, 00:09
It makes me grumpy that humanity is still patriarchal in the 41st milennium : P

except it's not. Some worlds within the Imperium remain patriarchal, and it's partriachal as far as their god being male is concerned, but the Imperium itself is not really sexist in any way shape or form. In fact to someone raised on a major world in the Imperium, say, Necromunda, Hydraphur, or McCragge, the idea of men being inherently superior would probably be puzzling more than anything else.

They've gone so far beyond sexism that few people even think of things in terms of "man's job" or "woman's job." The parts we see appear sexist: all, or primarily, male guard, All male space marines, etc. But space marines are singel gender through genetic neccessity, and guard tend to try and keep all male and all femal regiments, to prevent unneccessary fraternization. Heck, one of the most powerful organizations in the Imperium, The Adeptus Sororitas, is female only. (by Political neccessity)

MrBigMr
30-07-2008, 00:19
I think Kroot reproduction is based on what they eat, since in Xenology the Kroot was said to have a unit stashed away behind the abdominal plates. Most likely due to eating human DNA. I would think that if they can grow wings, growing a pair shouldn't be that difficult. And since kidreds are to match their eating habits, they would be able to mate with one another. The genetic data would probably be transferred to the rest of the population via eating the Kroot. Wasn't it said that the young ones were fed with the flesh of shapers to pass on their knowledge and skills?


you dont know that, they might have giant stonkers which they chase male eldar around with
Well, no mentioning of anything like that in the fluff and seeing that the only difference between the male and female model (and artwork) is breasts...


hmm, i'd be curious how one explains the birds n bees to an ork boy...if you can get them to sit still without a study thump to dah noggin.
Reminds me of the drawing of two reapers watching people have sex.
"This is how they reproduce? F-ing gross!"

PondaNagura
30-07-2008, 00:26
i would think that "growing a pair" for kroot would probably be a setback in their evolution...
"gah, it kicked me! why, why does this hurt so much? what's the point of these if all they do is bring weakness?!"

MrBigMr
30-07-2008, 00:28
Better eat Eldar flesh then.

Lord-Caerolion
30-07-2008, 01:39
Off-Topic: I think with Xenology about the Tau, the part with the Ethereal not having hooves may not have been wrong. After all, we know that the Tau Castes are effectively different subspecies from each other, so there are bound to be physical differences. With the Fire Caste evolving from plains-dwellers, it makes sense for them to have developed hooves, but with the non-labouring Ethereals, their feet don't need as much protection, so they might have developed "normal" feet, like ours. After all, we know the Air Caste still have vestigial wings, so something less extreme than that should be ok.

jma037
30-07-2008, 04:39
In fact to someone raised on a major world in the Imperium, say, Necromunda, Hydraphur, or McCragge, the idea of men being inherently superior would probably be puzzling more than anything else.

They've gone so far beyond sexism that few people even think of things in terms of "man's job" or "woman's job."


I disagree. Biology states that on average, a man has more upper body strength than a woman. Man has more testosterone, therefore more muscle mass. Thus, woman will always remain the "weaker"( in a pure physical sense) sex. And since Strength is the basests form of status determination. IE in a group of all males, the weaker ones will generally be lower on the status scale. Female will remain to be the "weaker" member of any group. Thus lower on the picking order.

Hellebore
30-07-2008, 04:44
The Dark Heresy rpg has an aside about women in the 41st millennium.

It basically sums it up as women being unequal in most Imperial culture, but that the up side of that is that they are not normally put in harms way (so they trade equality for survivability).

It then says that there are no biases in the DH rules and assumes that the inquisition acquires people regardless of gender.

Hellebore

druchii lord narakh
30-07-2008, 06:12
The only reason that space marines are only male is because the gene seed and extra organs don't fuse together that welll with the female body. my point in case is with the carapace slid under the skin of a space marine would interfear with the woman anatomy.
i do know that how Dark Eldar mate is when a DE female gets captured then raped on the streets of commoragh or a DE wych decides to try out other ways to gain absolute pleasure.
Orks are a ******* FUNGUS. they dont need to mate only to bleed to reproduce.
i have a theory that tau air cast are mostly female because of like most things a smaller lighter body( in theory that is)
Impirial guard are mad and happy when a male and female guardsmen mate = mad because a meat bag is out of service/Glad because they are making more meatbags to fight with.
eldar are dying out cause they restrain themselfs from pleasures as much as posible and probly have like a long incubation time of maybe 12-15 months because think they live for thousands of years. to make a body like that must take some time. look a marine takes 9 months in a womb then like 4 years to become a full marine and along the way its hard.

legio mortis
30-07-2008, 06:18
It basically sums it up as women being unequal in most Imperial culture, but that the up side of that is that they are not normally put in harms way (so they trade equality for survivability).
I kinda don't get this. Isn't "Imperial Culture" pretty much an oxymoron? I though it was presented as having just about no overarching culture, and that customs and roles changed wildly from planet to planet?

Drogmir
30-07-2008, 07:25
I disagree. Biology states that on average, a man has more upper body strength than a woman. Man has more testosterone, therefore more muscle mass. Thus, woman will always remain the "weaker"( in a pure physical sense) sex. And since Strength is the basests form of status determination. IE in a group of all males, the weaker ones will generally be lower on the status scale. Female will remain to be the "weaker" member of any group. Thus lower on the picking order.

But don't forget that Women have a better immune system and general body resistance to foreign contaminants than men. Technically from an IG standpoint making them better for deathworlds dealing with poisons,hazardous gases, viral warfare and such.

Burning Star IV
30-07-2008, 07:28
I disagree. Biology states that on average, a man has more upper body strength than a woman. Man has more testosterone, therefore more muscle mass. Thus, woman will always remain the "weaker"( in a pure physical sense) sex. And since Strength is the basests form of status determination. IE in a group of all males, the weaker ones will generally be lower on the status scale. Female will remain to be the "weaker" member of any group. Thus lower on the picking order.

But, if I'm not mistaken (and hey, I might be) The female body is typically more resilient than males'. For instance, Women handle adverse pressure conditions better. I don't know how broad this resilience is, but the implications on an exotic battlefield would seem to place women at an advantage over men in certain conditions.

edit: ah, beat to it.

Denise
30-07-2008, 08:01
I have to say that this is one of the creepier warhammer 40k discussions I have read.

weissengel86
30-07-2008, 08:03
In reality the differences between men and women stem more from the differences in the brain chemistry and makeup then physical differences. Men are typically the warriors not because its patriarchal but because women tend to avoid stuff like that in general, you will have exceptions but by and large men are more aggressive and willing to harm others for perceived danger then women are. Men have fought the wars while women stayed home and took care of the children not because men are sexist pigs (only in the minds of ignorant feminists) but because that is how men and women act naturally biologically the men are built to physically protect the families and biologically women are built to nurture and raise the children and family. Sexism in 40k only exists in the minds of people who are deluded by political correctness.

Eulenspiegel
30-07-2008, 08:36
Orks. They have non. Sucks to be an Ork.
Sometimes I think in this respect they have the happiest life of all the 40K beings :cool:


I kinda don't get this. Isn't "Imperial Culture" pretty much an oxymoron? I though it was presented as having just about no overarching culture, and that customs and roles changed wildly from planet to planet?
When people think "Imperium", they think about worlds where the Administratum has a firm grip and strong base. An archetypical Imperial world if you will.

That of cause doesn´t mean that most of the worlds are like this. As you said, there are lots and lots of other planets (feral worlds, deathworlds, ...) where other cultures are found. Matriarchy may not be rare on those.

MrBigMr
30-07-2008, 10:39
I disagree. Biology states that on average, a man has more upper body strength than a woman. Man has more testosterone, therefore more muscle mass. Thus, woman will always remain the "weaker"( in a pure physical sense) sex. And since Strength is the basests form of status determination. IE in a group of all males, the weaker ones will generally be lower on the status scale. Female will remain to be the "weaker" member of any group. Thus lower on the picking order.
Weaker and stronger in this matter is only potential. A man has a potential to have more upper body mass. But you don't need much more than a working trigger finger to shoot a gun, and many martial arts use other factors than basic strength.

We can badmouth women as much as we like, but I've seen plenty of chicks pull their weight and then some, some in army, some in "manly sports and hobbies" like airsoft/pantball or such. And they were no tomboys either. When you see a 5' 2", 80-100 pound chick put on gear twice her weight and size and ski 60 miles a day with it when superior men fall short along the way, you wouldn't state such things.

Oh, when will Mankind realize that it's not the size...?


As for discriminating, why do we have female inquisitors, Guards(wo)men, commissars, etc.? In the older IG codex there's female combatants shown, in fluff there are female soldiers and officers in the Guard and so forth. Doesn't matter how penile oriented the Imperium desires to be (Come on, have you looked at those cruisers? Talk about phallic.), doesn't remove the fact that there are women and so far I haven't seen much in the way of shunning them.


Off-Topic: I think with Xenology about the Tau, the part with the Ethereal not having hooves may not have been wrong. After all, we know that the Tau Castes are effectively different subspecies from each other, so there are bound to be physical differences. With the Fire Caste evolving from plains-dwellers, it makes sense for them to have developed hooves, but with the non-labouring Ethereals, their feet don't need as much protection, so they might have developed "normal" feet, like ours. After all, we know the Air Caste still have vestigial wings, so something less extreme than that should be ok.
Except that both the models and artwork show Ethereals with hooves. And the same author as Xenology also has stated in other novels that Tau have hooves. It's only the artwork and you can't hold its maker responsible for everything.

Invader Nails
30-07-2008, 10:56
Weaker and stronger in this matter is only potential. A man has a potential to have more upper body mass. But you don't need much more than a working trigger finger to shoot a gun, and many martial arts use other factors than basic strength.




I add to this that women tend to have better vision and a higher pain threshold than men -- both useful traits on the battefield. Women can be snipers or pilots or technicians or intelligence operatives just as well as men, and when you throw power armor and high-tech into the equation, minor variations in physiology don't matter quite so much (if at all).

TheOverlord
30-07-2008, 11:06
We can badmouth women as much as we like, but I've seen plenty of chicks pull their weight and then some,

Ah, but how many MORE have you seen that DON'T? :D

I'm just saying, you know? :)

No, I'm not sexist. I am however cynical.

MrBigMr
30-07-2008, 11:27
Ah, but how many MORE have you seen that DON'T? :D
In comparison to the guy that don't? Pretty few. Big bunch of you guys out there wouldn't even qualify as 3rd grade conscripts. I've seen chicks, average chicks, do stuff grown men bitch about. And they'd do it again if needed to.

TheOverlord
30-07-2008, 11:46
Are you sure? Are you sure it's not... nothing? :)

I certainly do see women walking a lot more in shopping and not moaning about it (unlike men, who will die of exhaustion after the first 2 hours) but the majority for me is that they do not like to do physical labor, and will not last as long as men. This is just observation, no intended meaning behind it. I do believe what we have here is a case of relativity.

So either we both live in total polar opposites of the world, or there is some seriously weird stuff going around where you live (or mine!) O_o You sure you aren't part of some genetic research compound... or something? ;) Or am I the one part of that research group? *DUN DUN DUNN!!*

Eh, whatever. Fact remains that for this thread, as you said men have more potential, and in a world of conscription and eternal warfare, I'd say that yes, it will most likely be a very sexist Imperium if only because they need as many fighting figures as they can gather, and trained men will usually stand out top in fighting form. (true that you don't need strength to pull a trigger, however you need the reflexes and target concentration more present in human male counter parts than female. Regardless of the fact, I'd wager good money they'd throw any bodies, male or female, if it brought victory.)

Hadn't we enough threads like this in the past already? Need we KEEP arguing the qualities and limitations of human genders? I mean, seriously, DO WE?

aim
30-07-2008, 11:59
I'm amazed that political correctness has actually infected a wargaming forum.

If people are arguing with basic scientific facts that, if an average man and woman put in the same effort to training then the man will be stronger then they need to take a step back and realise that they have been brainwashed by political correctness. The physical and mental makeup of men is geared more towards agression than women, as already stated.


As far as I see it, women can be treated based on their ability. Equality is not giving a woman something because shes good at it for a woman. Equality is treating a woman exactly as you would a man in the same situation, which unfortunately, happens very rarely.

Invader Nails
30-07-2008, 12:12
If people are arguing with basic scientific facts that, if an average man and woman put in the same effort to training then the man will be stronger then they need to take a step back and realise that they have been brainwashed by political correctness. The physical and mental makeup of men is geared more towards agression than women, as already stated.


While this is true, it does not mean that women are wholly unsuited for duty as soldiers. The fact that women have served and are serving with distinction in armed forces all across the world shows this to be true.

And with that I now bow out of what we all surely realize is a circular and pointless discussion.

inq.serge
30-07-2008, 12:30
1:
Only because men are like this and women are like that in the human species doesn't mean that other species have the same differences. Hyena females have more testosterone then hyena males, and they are from same class as humans. Eldar and all other species aren't not only from a different domain, they are not even from the same planet!

2:
The reason why most Inquisitors are male is because an inquisitor takes around the 1000 best students in a schola progenium, no matter gender.
Usually 900 die within a month. 90 die within ½ a year, 5 die within 1 year, 3 become mind-scrubbed servitors. 1 gets some high position as some kind of helper. 1 becomes an inquisitor. However, most "Principals" (AKA Drill Abbots) hide the best girls in the Schole and sends them to the monasteries of the adeptus sororitas (where almost all survive long enough to become the warriors of the adeptus sororitas, and some become even saints) (Since the inquisitor does not hand-pick the students). Boys don't have the same luck.

3:
Marines need a Y chromosome. It turns into a Z, which turns the X into another Z. That is the only known way to turn a X into a Z. Otherwise the Sororitas would also be 8'4" 1/4 ton beasts.

4: The Imperium is more "equal" then most countries are today. (Not "all men and women are the equal and women are more equal and important" (as some claim today), but; "I don't care whether you're a man or a woman, take your gun and kill them all, the more you kill, the more medals you'll get"!)

5:Imperial guard DO have females. Imperial guard DO have mixed units. Games workshop DO NOT have the models. And even if they did, the only reason you could see the difference would be that all the females would have tighter pants and high heels. (The fashions of 40k imperial women are: Corsets, High heels and tight pants.)

Lotan
30-07-2008, 12:33
I'd like to comment on the pain threshhold someone said earlier. Women have a higher one than men. Thats fair but a very dumbed down version of it. For example, not saying I would do this but. I punch a guy in the face, he gets hurt, stands up and hits me back. I punch a woman in the face (no i've never done it) she falls over, generally wouldn't get back up.

There are different types of pain, yes women are more at home with the long drawn out pain due to them having to be able to for pregnancy, but men can take quick and extremely hard blunt trauma a lot better than a woman can, this is due solely to muscular and skeletal structure.

FACTS: Men are stronger than women. Men are genetically superior when it comes to spacial awareness. Men are more resilient when it matters, like getting beat in the head.

FACTS: Women are more socially capable than men, what women lack in spacial awareness they make up for in the ability to multitask and also with language, women can withstand the pain of childbirth.

And even these are stereotypes! It all depends on genetics, women can be awesome with spatial awareness if their bodies produce a lot of testosterone!

But the goon that said womens immune systems are tougher so they'd be better for viral warfare and deathworlds...thats quite a retarded comment. Yes women may be able to survive things like colds and flu better than men but I've yet to see a virus bomb full of the common cold, or a deathworld that has plants that don't shred you alive or release poisons that clot your blood etc.....The difference between immune systems of males and females is negligable in these circumstances.

Oh and marines are normally 7' - 7'6" in height.

Feor
30-07-2008, 12:48
I disagree. Biology states that on average, a man has more upper body strength than a woman. Man has more testosterone, therefore more muscle mass. Thus, woman will always remain the "weaker"( in a pure physical sense) sex. And since Strength is the basests form of status determination. IE in a group of all males, the weaker ones will generally be lower on the status scale. Female will remain to be the "weaker" member of any group. Thus lower on the picking order.

Science wise? Sure, man are often better able to be soldiers than women. The Imperium doesn't assume that a female will be inferior however. That's the difference. They do completly fair, they say "Here is what you need to be able to do to be a soldier/pilot/zealot/etc. if you can do it we're happy to have you." And those requirements aren't set up to shut women out, they are the real needs of a person on the battlefields of the 41st millenium. Sure men are genetically more likely to match them, but it's just as possible for a woman to pass those same qualifications. The Imperium is in a bit of a downward spiral, they don't have time to be sexist.

And, of course, this entire argument assumes that men and women of the 41st millenia are the same as men and women of today. Sure, 40,000 years isn't long enough for us to grow gills or sprout wings, but women becoming more aggressive overall, or more likely to have good upper body strength? That can be bred into a race in a matter of a few hundred years, who knows what minor physiological changes may have sprung up through the hardships of the Age of Strife and the "tinkering" of the Dark Age of Technology, not to mention the most recent 10,000 years of constant warfare.

MrBigMr
30-07-2008, 12:52
I don't get how people just bash women and put it under not being subjucated by PC and white man's guilt. Maybe it's all the childhood summers spend in cabins with half a dozen middle aged cows or something, or my general hippie philosophy of "let all the flowers bloom", but I just don't see why all the hate or blaming PC.

Yes, women are women and I as a man with my unit are attracted to them, but at least I know how to keep it in my pants. You try sleeping between two little blong girls in olive drab T's and boxers, in a small tent filled with people. How well did I sleep? Like a log after the last 21 hours of marching and setting up the camp. Sitting in a sauna, butt naked with butt naked women. Did I have a raging boner? No. Did I engage in meaningful conversation without drooling? Yes.

Once you get around the taboo of men and women of being on the same level, you can start working better. We should stop looking at who's man and who's not, and instead just look at their papers. Will this mean more women get into places? Yes. Does it mean 50-50 split? No. I don't think that all women can do things like army service, but neither can all men. That is quite the key element here, isn't it. All you say "women make bad soldiers because this scientific study sez so." Lets say we grade everyone. Men go from from 0-100 and women from 0-80. Lets say all that score 60 get to (as in "you get to serve the Emperor") serve. So you get more men, but not all men rank up either. Same with women, not all rank up, but some do.

With equality I'm not expecting all the be 50-50, but things should be gender neutral and concentrate on the merits. Women are better at something while men are at another thing, but that doesn't stop a person with the qualifications from applying for the job. I remember when in the army they said to us that women aren't allowed into scout, paratrooper and combat diver units because it's too hard. Funny thing that women are allowed to become NCOs and Officers in those fields, which is even tougher, and there are plenty of women in the border patrol, which is the same training as what scouts get. So a woman can't become a scout because it's too hard, but she can perform the same damn training as a border patroller. Maybe it's because the border patrol is under the ministry of internal affairs and not the ministry of defense.

It's still amazing that a woman can come into a sauna full of men, when it's scheduled for them, and no one has any problems with it, but you stick your dick inside a sauna scheduled to women without first making sure everyone in there is cool with it and you're lucky to ever again pee standing up.

But I think Oscar Wilde was right:
"How can a woman be expected to be happy with a man who insists on treating her as if she were a perfectly normal human being."

inq.serge
30-07-2008, 13:13
You got a point mister big, mister. (Couldn't resist saying that).

I'm was not "allowed" into the army due to lack of will (Laziness).

However, I'm a cage-fighter (imagine a mix of wrestling and boxing, where almost everything is allowed. And you're in a cage). I fight and have fought women in training-fights. It feels uncomfortable in the beginning (When you are new to the sport, that is). But you get used to it. There's nothing special. Even if you two are entangled in each others limbs, and hold each other tight as octopuses, you only think of violence: "Wrath", not "Lust", so to say.

Once I fought a woman for training. She was slower and less agile then me, had a jaw as superman, and her knee hurts (my face).

Azulthar
30-07-2008, 14:13
I'd like to comment on the pain threshhold someone said earlier. Women have a higher one than men. Thats fair but a very dumbed down version of it. For example, not saying I would do this but. I punch a guy in the face, he gets hurt, stands up and hits me back. I punch a woman in the face (no i've never done it) she falls over, generally wouldn't get back up.

There are different types of pain, yes women are more at home with the long drawn out pain due to them having to be able to for pregnancy, but men can take quick and extremely hard blunt trauma a lot better than a woman can, this is due solely to muscular and skeletal structure.

FACTS: Men are stronger than women. Men are genetically superior when it comes to spacial awareness. Men are more resilient when it matters, like getting beat in the head.

FACTS: Women are more socially capable than men, what women lack in spacial awareness they make up for in the ability to multitask and also with language, women can withstand the pain of childbirth.

And even these are stereotypes! It all depends on genetics, women can be awesome with spatial awareness if their bodies produce a lot of testosterone!

But the goon that said womens immune systems are tougher so they'd be better for viral warfare and deathworlds...thats quite a retarded comment. Yes women may be able to survive things like colds and flu better than men but I've yet to see a virus bomb full of the common cold, or a deathworld that has plants that don't shred you alive or release poisons that clot your blood etc.....The difference between immune systems of males and females is negligable in these circumstances.
YES.

I get so tired of hearing that "but women have a higher pain threshold" argument. It's like whenever a man has an advantage, the PC masses charge in to try and negate it. Two or so years ago there was a large research dedicated to intelligence. The result was that men, on average, had about a 5 point IQ advantage over women. Three-quarters of the article went on about how this didn't necessarily say anything, and that it was very likely that women somehow compensated for this slightly lower IQ, etc. God forbid men actually have a mental advantage over women.

A few years ago a little neighbourhood kid we used to babysit told us that "boys are stronger, but girls are smarter". She apparentely learned this from her teacher. We don't have to lie to have equality people, sheesh! :mad:


I agree that sex should never be taken into account for anything. Judge people on their individual merits. Women can be stronger than men, men can be more social than women.

End of rant.

Dominus_Serui
30-07-2008, 14:14
While I personally thorougly agree with the idea that the Imperium doesn't care about your sex - a body is a body, and all they 'care' about is additional manpower, as long as they've got that they're not going to turn someone down. Having grown up in a family that is primarily matriachical, with a mother who could out-do me athletically any day I can hapilly tell you that women are more than capable of preforming just as well as men.

Although in certain fluff there are plenty of male-only regiments (Vostroyan Firstborn presumably don't have women because of the fact they only take First Born Sons, which in itsself shows an inherent sexist nature)...but the majority of regiments have been noted to recruit regardless of gender, Krieg/Cadians/Vahallans/Catchans don't seem to give a ****...I could imagine the Mordians beeing a little patriachical...but thats because they've allways been portrayed as uppity and a little snobby...although women can be just as snobby and uppity as any man, although that gives me a 'Monsterous Regiment' style army backplot. And Tallarn are a whole nest of hornets I don't want to step on.

On a side note though, isn't Warrior Woman from the Last Chancers part of the penal legion because she was part of some illegal all-women regiment or something silly like that?

Adra
30-07-2008, 14:48
The truth is that most of the differences we as humans observe between our sexes are social and have been socialy constructed. Women are percived in our society as weaker than men and that has more of an effect on reality than true phisicality, like a self forfilling prophecy. Yes there are differences between men and women but honestly none of them are justifiable reasons to prevent one from throwing their lives away for the Emperor.

The only area that is a true difference between the sexes is that women bare the burden of childbirth and so many, if not most, human societies afford them special dispensation due to this. If, however, women put that part of themselves to one side then there is no reason they cant die needlessly shoulder tro shoulder with the men of the imperium.

arch_inquisitor
30-07-2008, 15:03
Arguing sex generalizations in relation to the 40k universe is inane.

With millions of worlds each with its own diverse global cultural and eco systems witch affect mutational evolution. Not to mention mass cross galaxy interbreeding of such diverse genetic groups. With all these factors the idea of the typical female vs the typical male is kinda pointless.

Richter Kless
30-07-2008, 15:05
I don't get how people just bash women and put it under not being subjucated by PC and white man's guilt. Maybe it's all the childhood summers spend in cabins with half a dozen middle aged cows or something, or my general hippie philosophy of "let all the flowers bloom", but I just don't see why all the hate or blaming PC.

Generally because it's annoying as hell and is comletely out of touch with reality. It's political correctness that causes issues like religion, sex, the holocaust, etc, to become taboos in conversations. I dare you, say something positive about the nazi's (nobody has only bad sides) in public and all hell will break loose.
(please don't bring up Godwin's law, it's very annoying when people do that)


Yes, women are women and I as a man with my unit are attracted to them, but at least I know how to keep it in my pants. You try sleeping between two little blong girls in olive drab T's and boxers, in a small tent filled with people. How well did I sleep? Like a log after the last 21 hours of marching and setting up the camp. Sitting in a sauna, butt naked with butt naked women. Did I have a raging boner? No. Did I engage in meaningful conversation without drooling? Yes.

I'm going to be honest here and say you are seriously stretching the limits of my belief with that story. Considering how often men think and crave for sex on a regular day, I seriously doubt the validity of your, unless:
-you are gay. (nothing wrong with that)
-the women in question were ugly as sin, or just not your type.
-you are part of small minority who can surpress their urges.
Either way, I doubt your story will gain recognition from the majority of the male population.


Once you get around the taboo of men and women of being on the same level, you can start working better. We should stop looking at who's man and who's not, and instead just look at their papers. Will this mean more women get into places? Yes. Does it mean 50-50 split? No. I don't think that all women can do things like army service, but neither can all men. That is quite the key element here, isn't it. All you say "women make bad soldiers because this scientific study sez so." Lets say we grade everyone. Men go from from 0-100 and women from 0-80. Lets say all that score 60 get to (as in "you get to serve the Emperor") serve. So you get more men, but not all men rank up either. Same with women, not all rank up, but some do.

Fair enough.


With equality I'm not expecting all the be 50-50, but things should be gender neutral and concentrate on the merits. Women are better at something while men are at another thing, but that doesn't stop a person with the qualifications from applying for the job. I remember when in the army they said to us that women aren't allowed into scout, paratrooper and combat diver units because it's too hard. Funny thing that women are allowed to become NCOs and Officers in those fields, which is even tougher, and there are plenty of women in the border patrol, which is the same training as what scouts get. So a woman can't become a scout because it's too hard, but she can perform the same damn training as a border patroller. Maybe it's because the border patrol is under the ministry of internal affairs and not the ministry of defense.

I have no knowledge about the military, so I'll let this one to be dealt by others.


It's still amazing that a woman can come into a sauna full of men, when it's scheduled for them, and no one has any problems with it, but you stick your dick inside a sauna scheduled to women without first making sure everyone in there is cool with it and you're lucky to ever again pee standing up.

That's just one of the famous double standards in modern society.
-when a man cheats on his wife, he is a lying, no good, scumbag. When a woman cheats, the husband probably failed to give her the love she deserves.
-when two girls kiss, it's hot. When two guys kiss, it's gay.
-when a man gets raped in a movie, it's almost always done for laughs. When it happens to a woman, it's the most tragic thing ever.
But of course, it also works the other way.
-when a man does many women, he's awesome. When a woman does many men, she's a ****.


But I think Oscar Wilde was right:
[I]"How can a woman be expected to be happy with a man who insists on treating her as if she were a perfectly normal human being."

Not too devalue your quote, but Oscar Wilde was a bit of an oddball. Like with Sigmund Freud, you should be cautious when using their ideas as a backup.


Now for my personal add to this topic.
I think women should be second class citizen in the Imperium, just to make it more GrimDark. Nothing personal, but that's how I look my cruell, oppressive regimes.

With the other factions, it's seems that gender equality is the norm.

druchii lord narakh
30-07-2008, 15:06
as you all state that woman has a higher defence against disease and bacteria also there physical build is not usually the type for war. the reason why a woman has a better imune system is because usually a woman does not put as much physical stresss as welll mental stess as men. if a woman does have mental stress its usually from something like pregnancy or they bring in on themself. like a woman gets stressed from how her looks are like her hair. men usually dont care.

Jackal_Strain
30-07-2008, 15:07
I think it's wrong to assume there's one view on the similarities or difference between the genders across the Imperium as a whole. There's probably as many different views on the matter as there's planets and probably even more. I think it's fair to assume that thousands of planets withing the Imperium can be comprised of several "nations" and the views may differ between those as well.

Juicebox
30-07-2008, 15:58
Oh, when will Mankind realize that it's not the size...?

Ironic to the point of gastro-intestinal injury.

Suicide Messiah
30-07-2008, 16:50
I just wanna say that i think people should be judged on their individual merits andthat in the case of the Imperium a woman can die just the same as a man.

I dont agree with MrBigMr's examples though. Those women were in the army so they werent just your typical girls and yes they were tomboys. Infact they would have laughed at and beaten up tomboys. Imagine if this was the Imperium and everyone got drafted. The amount of guys that make the cut would just destroy the amount of girls who make it. Just because the two are different. Guys are stronger and more importantly feel a need to prove themselves physically more capable in order to validate themselves. Look how many guys lift weights even though they have no need to in their everyday life (i know i do). Plus about 99% of guys think that fighting,shooting and even killing is cool.

Anywho theres my thoughts on that.

MrBigMr
30-07-2008, 17:24
I get so tired of hearing that "but women have a higher pain threshold" argument. It's like whenever a man has an advantage, the PC masses charge in to try and negate it. Two or so years ago there was a large research dedicated to intelligence. The result was that men, on average, had about a 5 point IQ advantage over women. Three-quarters of the article went on about how this didn't necessarily say anything, and that it was very likely that women somehow compensated for this slightly lower IQ, etc. God forbid men actually have a mental advantage over women.
I'm not arguing it, but how neutral were the tests? I mean, men and women are suppose to have different brain chemistry, so doesn't that mean they think differently?


I dare you, say something positive about the nazi's (nobody has only bad sides) in public and all hell will break loose.
(please don't bring up Godwin's law, it's very annoying when people do that)
How about all the technological and medical stuff? When you place a hypothermic patient into a bath of warm water, do you stop to think that it was the Nazi doctors that came up with the method? Where would the space race have been without the Nazi scientiest and their V1 and 2 rockets? Infrared sights, weapons technology, etc.

And seriously, add Nazi to anything and it becomes 10 times more interesting. Zombier < Nazi zombies. Space Monsters < Space Nazis. War atrocities < Nazi war attrosoties Etc.

Besides, if it hadn't been for German troops and supplies, I'd be speaking Russian right now. It's not that we wanted to ally with them, but it was either that or face the Soviet Union alone. Too bad we had to drive the troops out of the country afterwards under Soviet pressure for peace.


I'm going to be honest here and say you are seriously stretching the limits of my belief with that story. Considering how often men think and crave for sex on a regular day, I seriously doubt the validity of your, unless:
-you are gay. (nothing wrong with that)
-the women in question were ugly as sin, or just not your type.
-you are part of small minority who can surpress their urges.
Either way, I doubt your story will gain recognition from the majority of the male population.
I can assure you, that they were not ugly (but then again I think all women are pretty.) And you're not the only one to suggest to me that I'm gay.

Yes, men think sex all the time. An officer in the army said "Men think about sex every 3 seconds. 1-2-sex, 1-2-sex, 1-2-sex..." I'm not the Warseer dedicated sodomy expert for no reason. I don't think women don't think about sex as well, but they can get along with men without wanting to jump their bones and even flirt with them without anything behind it. Men just think "oh joy, I'm getting some."

So in reality, men are weak, sad little babies that want their mommies. And you wouldn't believe the guys I know that are whipped.

Suck on it, sciense boys.


Maybe I'm just one of the guys that can keep it in their pants. Doesn't mean I can't give a lady good time, but I'm not seeking to seed every field that comes my way. Maybe some men should start to think about women as more than walking one night stands to get over their own egos.


Not too devalue your quote, but Oscar Wilde was a bit of an oddball. Like with Sigmund Freud, you should be cautious when using their ideas as a backup.
Just because I haven't shaved my head, dressed myself in orange rags and life without anything on the streets doesn't mean I don't respect the teachings of Buddha.

In an insane world, one has to be crazy to get along.


Now for my personal add to this topic.
I think women should be second class citizen in the Imperium, just to make it more GrimDark. Nothing personal, but that's how I look my cruell, oppressive regimes.
You do understand that 2nd class citizens are the first ones to get conscripted, don't you. I think it's equally grimdark to toss the women to the front to get killed, mangled, raped by enemy and own troops, etc. Remember that the Soviets had plenty of female combatants among their ranks during WW2, working as tank crews, in AA batteries, snipers, etc. Somehow I imagine the Imperium to be more concerned with their security than whether or not women get to serve. So far there's not much fluff about women not getting to serve.

Though I did find one little fanfic story fun called "I wish I was a girl." Basicly a guy is running through the streets of his home town, avoiding something as best as he could. Finally he is caught and dragged into a truck with "Navy" written on the side. While they drag him, he sees a childhood friend of his, a girl and thinks "I wish I was a girl like she. They don't seem to have this problem."

But we have to remember that each planet is unique, so where some worlds have mandatory conscription of men and women alike, some only take men and allow women to serve if they like and some might not even want women among their ranks.

I, with my crazy idea of gender nautrality, tend to have women in my armies. IG, Chaos (not CSM) and my all female daemonic legion.


Those women were in the army so they werent just your typical girls and yes they were tomboys. Infact they would have laughed at and beaten up tomboys.
I know plenty of tomboys and those girls were nothing like them. Not a bit.


Guys are stronger and more importantly feel a need to prove themselves physically more capable in order to validate themselves.
So they do stupid things. You don't get chicks trying any supid heroics because they listened to the wrong bodypart.


Plus about 99% of guys think that fighting,shooting and even killing is cool.
Who doesn't. But I don't like violence in my life. I try to keep out of trouble and handle everything peacefully, but I've lost it a few times, which always leaves me feeling bad.

Suicide Messiah
30-07-2008, 17:50
Ok maybe they werent tomboys but just the fact that they joined the army speaks volumes about them (not in a bad way mind you). Either way they couldnt have been your average girls either. Theres got to be some strong male influences in there.

DarkMatter2
30-07-2008, 17:52
Dropping all this nonsense about PC and what you think about science, I believe it is at least fair to note that the Imperium is currently LESS sexist than American society ATM.

Women are able to serve as front line combat troops, women serve as assassins, women serve in positions of the highest authorities (Inquisitors and High Lords), and all along, AFAIK, no mention is made of the idea of women being inferior to men in any way.

Any belief that the Imperium is patriarchal is purely based off of personal desire (except for that rather dubious quote from Dark Heresy) and the fluff doesn't support it.

MrBigMr
30-07-2008, 17:58
Many women join to become MPs or medics to have better scores with applying into police academy and medical school. I've even met some female nurses that have done work to the UN in peacekeeping missions, and they seemed perfectly ordinary. And what about nations that have conscription on women as well? I understand that it's done in Israel at least.

Suicide Messiah
30-07-2008, 18:10
Those are some good points. I didnt think about the career choices etc in the modern army.

PondaNagura
30-07-2008, 19:01
are, are we even on topic anymore?
i feel like Man v Women can go to random musings, unless directly related to how they are enrolled within imperial society...which WILL vary from battlefield to battlefield, from planet to planet.
as for pain tolerances, if you have nice armor, the most likely thing that will penetrate your armor, will also most likely kill you outright. also depending on the regiment and situation, either everyone who can lift their own weight becomes a conscript soldier against say nids, or orks; otherwise let technology do all the work.

from a fluff standpoint about men vs female marines (rather than burly-supermen from the 90's = kewl argument), not only would the implants work better within the men due to the testosterone levels needed, but because hormonally men stable out after puberty, where as women are in constant fluctuation...with exception for the few (and far between), who change their chemistry to stop their menstrual cycle. it's probably a more sure thing to implant into men who will stop changing by teens-20's (may vary due to cultural/physicality, diet etc etc), than a woman whose chemistry will flux on/off for an undetermined amount of time, especially with the limited resources available to independent marine chapters.

Bregalad
30-07-2008, 21:08
I thought that the topic was female Xenos in the 40k universe. :rolleyes:

If I want to talk about real human women, I don't ask people playing with toy soldiers ;)

Dominus_Serui
30-07-2008, 21:53
Back on topic then...are the only known Nid females the Norn Queens? The rest beeing sexless or....whatever, I'm not an athropologist/xenologist...presumably its either that or the Hive Tyrants are like Nid 'kings' and make whoopee with the Queens...

Also, aren't Eldar full compatable with humans?

weissengel86
30-07-2008, 22:12
Dropping all this nonsense about PC and what you think about science, I believe it is at least fair to note that the Imperium is currently LESS sexist than American society ATM.

Women are able to serve as front line combat troops, women serve as assassins, women serve in positions of the highest authorities (Inquisitors and High Lords), and all along, AFAIK, no mention is made of the idea of women being inferior to men in any way.

Any belief that the Imperium is patriarchal is purely based off of personal desire (except for that rather dubious quote from Dark Heresy) and the fluff doesn't support it. QFT the imperium is definitely less sexist then american society. Women have far more roles in the imperium then women in america do now. The adepta sororitas and the countless female saints (sabbat and celestine for example) just to mention a few. Sexism in 40k like i said before exists only in the minds of people who dont know what their talking about.

MrBigMr
30-07-2008, 22:27
I thought that the topic was female Xenos in the 40k universe. :rolleyes:
Me too. Funny how life goes.


If I want to talk about real human women, I don't ask people playing with toy soldiers ;)
Then who would you ask? Not even women know what the hell they want. There was an advert of a magazine once, where there was a picture of an Einstein-looking guy pondering. The text said "Even this man doesn't know how women can have at the same time too few clothes and wardrobes."


But if you want to be a real ladies man, here's a surefire way to do it: Be an *******. You don't have to be good looking, you don't have to be rich or well talented in anything, you don't even have to dress well or anything. Just have 100% confidence in what you think is the truth and let everyone know it. Act like everything you do is interesting and everything should know everything about them. Put down people before the women and always stick your nose into other people's busines. Naturally try to play it in a joking and frienly manner.

You can have bad hygine, dress in old rags and shoes that you've worn for years and your relative knowledge being summed between NES and Warhammer, and still not only get chicks, but actually have them call you. And not some desperate ugly whales, but really hot chicks.

Dominus_Serui
30-07-2008, 22:30
So basically you learnt the so called 'tricks of the trade' off of a Family Guy episode...because go knows you've come across some very very odd women.

Either way...this has wandered steadily off topic...and it branching into the 'lets all act like patriachical ******s amd let out our repressed issues with the oppsite sex' debates that pretty much undermine people's view of Wargamers/the Internet.

MadDoc
30-07-2008, 22:56
3:
Marines need a Y chromosome. It turns into a Z, which turns the X into another Z. That is the only known way to turn a X into a Z. Otherwise the Sororitas would also be 8'4" 1/4 ton beasts.

OT Sorry, but I couldn't let this slip by without clarification. This cr*p is made up by Philip Sibbering (http://www.philipsibbering.net/WH40KRP/WH40KRP_Concepts_%5BAdeptus_Astartes%5D.htm) (apologies to Mr Sibbering, I'm just not a fan of his stuff, and in particualr the penchant some people have of slipping it in amongst legitimate/canon GW material in an apparent attempt to pass it off as "official" background), and so is in NO WAY official/valid.

Edit: Come on people, lets not derail an otherwise intereting (albeit slightly disturbing) thread by degenerating into a gender riot... :angel:

Jackal_Strain
30-07-2008, 23:07
QFT the imperium is definitely less sexist then american society. Women have far more roles in the imperium then women in america do now. The adepta sororitas and the countless female saints (sabbat and celestine for example) just to mention a few. Sexism in 40k like i said before exists only in the minds of people who dont know what their talking about.

On some planets thats certainly the case, but on others it's probably not. I see alot of people who thinks that the imperium somehow share a single common culture. the Imperium is made up of a million worlds for crying out loud! I bet you could find a planet in the Imperium were women are only allowed to breed with midgets :p

MrBigMr
30-07-2008, 23:20
So basically you learnt the so called 'tricks of the trade' off of a Family Guy episode...
No, it's a true story to the letter, honest to God. And I've seen similar happening here and there.


Edit: Come on people, lets not derail an otherwise intereting (albeit slightly disturbing) thread by degenerating into a gender riot... :angel:
Don't worry, I knew this was to happen and if this starts to go way south, I'll pull the plug. Mods aren't the only ones with the power to close threads. One can never say "40K" and "women" without resulting in this. It happend every time. It's a Warseer constant, like a sexist speed of light. That's why I wanted to avoid it this time, telling in the first post that no need to talk about them. Naturally some don't read the first post as always. That's an Internets constant.

Logarithm Udgaur
30-07-2008, 23:36
40K may or may not be partriarcal, but judging by how everyone of these discussions turns into a man vs. woman thread, I would say earth society is.

Back on topic (maybe)
What about some of the more obscure 40K races such as Hrud, Loxatl, etc... Do they spawn in the way the animals they are based on (rats/gophers for the Hrud, lizards/amphibians for the Loxatl) do, or something else?

PondaNagura
30-07-2008, 23:58
i don't have xenology, but still feel the norn queen is just a title to the beasty, because it carries out a similar function to say ants/bees/wasps/hive insects...if i recall correctly isn't the NQ attached to a hiveship; so it's more like an actively conscious organ to the laregr fold. i don't think nids have to reproduce sexually, the NQ would probably have all the genetic information from the hiveship's 'database' to produce the organisms it needs to.
but that's my opinion on the matter, and not canon.

Lord Malice
31-07-2008, 03:31
Indeed hive ships produce the smaller tyranid lifeforms. They are the ones that eat up all the bio-gruel from a world and then the DNA is sifted and new lifeforms grown.

[Off the cuff ideas]A Norn Queen probably acts as a psychic hub, collecting all the tactical awareness of the synapse creatures. So if a hive tyrant is aware of specific type of termagant doing quite well against a certain prey lifeform, this knowledge will then be used to produce more of those types of termagant next time that same prey is encountered. I doubt very much that a Norn Queen would be like the Queen Alien from the films, birthing eggs et cetera. It is the hive ships which produce tyranid creatures as they are the ones which ingest a world's bio-matter.

Ordinary tryanid creatures when not in contact with a synapse creature can revert to an animal state of mind - living in packs and hunting for food for themselves - but most tyrnaid organisms don't even have a digestive tract let alone reproductive organs. They shouldn't really be treated as stand alone creatures but more like macro-antibodies which serve only to protect the fleet and destroy everything not part of the fleet before throwing themselves into digestion pools so their genetic material can be re-used.


As for Eldar females looking like Eldar males, well, have you seen Lilith Hesperex, not what I'd call a manly body. Although Eldar males and females reproduce in the same manner as their human counterparts the similarity ends there. An Eldar mind and body is so different to a human's as to be almost impossible to imagine. All Eldar are so dedicated to which ever path they are on that their physical and mental abilities are identical.

Afterall, there are natural evolutionary explanations for why men and women are different and think differently. These traits are not present in the Eldar due to their high advancement and I mean that in an evolutionary sense not in any cultural or moral sense. Eldar males and females are so similar because they are near the top of the evolutionary ladder. Humans may be primitive in comparrison, their attitudes towards the sexes and example, but, the Eldar, advanced past such needs are a cruel and pitiless race.

It's the weaknesses that make humans such a generally decent bunch. Take for instance the idea that women are the weaker sex. Men have an inante tendency to protect women from harm. This is because women are the child bearers and their health and safety cannot be risked so generally men will want to keep women away from danger. From an evolutionary stand point it makes no sense then to have women as front line troops because a woman can only be pregnant to one man once at a time wheras a single man can impregnate as many women as he can have intercourse with.

Eldar have evolved beyond this point. Since they are as capable as each other they do not care for or view each other in the same way as humans do and since they lack these biological imperatives they are cruel and look down on all other races as inferior and base.

Of course in the Age of the Imperium such concerns are irrelevant. There are so many people that these throwback emotions are unnecessary and are in fact a hindrance. Everyone needs to fight and the human race as a species cannot afford to let some have it easy because of any perceived weaknesses. We all know that humans in the 41st millenium are at different stages of evolution (natural and forced), even to have sub-species of human so I would imagine that even an 'ordinary' human will be more evolved than we are now. Hence a general equality amongst the sexes (although most ordinary humans are all as equally worthless as each other save as meat for the grinder).


From a 40K centric view we can see that those species best adapted to survive are those who do not have genders; orks and tyranids respectively. All the others are approaching or are at a point where gender distinctions are purely physical only. Really any discussion on females in 40K is relatively pointless because whatever species, whatever gender, if they can fight they we, as gamers see them, those who don't fight are either insignificant in galactic terms or already extinct.

I would say then that, since the Imperium is covered the most in the background that and gender divisions are imposed by the creators andd gamers rather than portraying the mindset of the times. Take the space marines, they are the best if humanities warriors and arguambly the best humans and they're all men, which I would take as a basic need of men and women too (as gamers) to have something sacred to men. Throughout all human history men have formed exclusive groups that women may not enter because men need to have this privacy amongst themselves. Whatever your beliefs on gender issues this is a natural and basic male human need, to bond with other men seperate from their relationships with women. More nad more commonlly men cannot from exclusive groups whilst women are encouraged to do so (as was mentioned earlier with the sauna issue) so an invented game universe becomes the one bastion where men can have an exclusive group which seems perfectly acceptable to me and is most likely the reason for the, seemingly, irrational response of most gamers towards female marines.

Personally I'd be an ork any day of the week.

Gensuke626
31-07-2008, 03:54
I'd say that in the 40k universe, in alot of ways men get the short end of the stick...
Imperium - Men and Women join the Guard, more men than women.
Specialist, non astartes men get suited up with Carapace armor and a Hellgun.
Specialist, non astartes women get suited up in Power Armor, and get a Bolter.
Granted, not every woman becomes a sororitas, but if you look at it, a woman has a much better chance of wearing power armor than a man.

I also subscribe to the theory that there are no female Space Marine models because the Gene and Hormone therapy that all marines go through along with the psycho-indoctrinations and meditations basically render them sexless.

Er...I gotta bail for family dinner, so I can't finish my thoughts on Eldar and Tau, but, just look at the models...Power swords vs Chain Swords? ;)

Hive Mind 33
31-07-2008, 04:13
Yes, men think sex all the time. An officer in the army said "Men think about sex every 3 seconds. 1-2-sex, 1-2-sex, 1-2-sex..." I'm not the Warseer dedicated sodomy expert for no reason. I don't think women don't think about sex as well, but they can get along with men without wanting to jump their bones and even flirt with them without anything behind it. Men just think "oh joy, I'm getting some."



That is a true as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. No Guy here or in the world thinks like that. When in the middle of a warhammer game we are not thinking about that, when watching sports we are not thinking about that. In fat that is a urban legend http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/thinksex.asp. Dude if you want to argue do not bring of false statements.

SabrX
31-07-2008, 04:18
God I hope Tau females look like this! :cries:

Kandarin
31-07-2008, 04:33
God I hope Tau females look like this! :cries:

Yes, saying "HEY! LOOK AT THESE!" to any enemy gunners in sight is a great idea.

Chem-Dog
31-07-2008, 04:54
Kroot. They're birds (or close enough), so I doubt they have breasts to signify gender.

Erm, Breasts have a use... they are not just there do advertise a service ;)


And since Strength is the basests form of status determination. IE in a group of all males, the weaker ones will generally be lower on the status scale. Female will remain to be the "weaker" member of any group. Thus lower on the picking order.

Within the Imperium there are two imperatives, the first is "Pick the best for the Job", the second is "When the best dies, replace with what's available" it's not an issue of how strong you are....


But don't forget that Women have a better immune system and general body resistance to foreign contaminants than men. Technically from an IG standpoint making them better for deathworlds dealing with poisons,hazardous gases, viral warfare and such.

If true, that's very specific to "Terran" females in the range of experience in everyday life, Biological weapons aren't included in this stat.


I add to this that women tend to have better vision and a higher pain threshold than men
The vision thing I'll accept, the pain thing? The only people who have ever told me that is girls who think they're feminists.
I've been present at all three of my children's births, not once did it sound like my wife, or any other woman in the ward at the time, had a high pain threshold.


In comparison to the guy that don't? Pretty few. Big bunch of you guys out there wouldn't even qualify as 3rd grade conscripts. I've seen chicks, average chicks, do stuff grown men bitch about. And they'd do it again if needed to.

LOL, looked in WD recently? Flick to the back, the "Events" section and look at the pic of the tournament.....How many Tee shirts there are any smaller than XXL? THAT's why most of us wouldn't get into the armed services.
And compared to "Average Women"? Hardly a subjective study ;)


Eldar and all other species aren't not only from a different domain, they are not even from the same planet!

Xenology is at great pains to draw a parallel between the species in both outward appearance and internal structure....



my general hippie philosophy of "let all the flowers bloom",

I thought it was your deep rooted slaaneshy tentacle lust thang!


I'm not arguing it, but how neutral were the tests? I mean, men and women are suppose to have different brain chemistry, so doesn't that mean they think differently?

Indeed it does.


I can assure you, that they were not ugly (but then again I think all women are pretty.) And you're not the only one to suggest to me that I'm gay.

And I had a gag about using Oscar Wilde quotes and everything :(


Remember that the Soviets had plenty of female combatants among their ranks during WW2, working as tank crews, in AA batteries, snipers, etc. Somehow I imagine the Imperium to be more concerned with their security than whether or not women get to serve. So far there's not much fluff about women not getting to serve.

How many female members of the Polit bureau were there?


Back on topic then...are the only known Nid females the Norn Queens? The rest beeing sexless or....whatever, I'm not an athropologist/xenologist...presumably its either that or the Hive Tyrants are like Nid 'kings' and make whoopee with the Queens...

Also, aren't Eldar full compatable with humans?

Tyranids seem to pretty much follow the Insect "Hive" principal, with a queen at the head of a largely (by default) male population. Other than the Norn Queen there was the Dominatrix.

Eldar were fully compatible with Humans in Rogue Trader (there was even a "Halfbreed" character iirc) but I doubt that's in line with current canon.

Richter Kless
31-07-2008, 09:52
That is a true as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. No Guy here or in the world thinks like that. When in the middle of a warhammer game we are not thinking about that, when watching sports we are not thinking about that. In fat that is a urban legend http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/thinksex.asp. Dude if you want to argue do not bring of false statements.

It won't pop randomly in a man's mind in any given situation (though it does in mine), but whenever a man sees a woman that's even slightly attractive, sex will flash through his mind, if even for the slightest second.

And that article doesn't prove anything, it just writes other science of as 'faux science'.

I could say the same thing about that article and claim that the articles that back up my standpoint are 'true science' articles.

MrBigMr
31-07-2008, 12:59
As for Eldar females looking like Eldar males, well, have you seen Lilith Hesperex, not what I'd call a manly body.
Maybe I was referring to all the men having feminin bodies? I mean, the only difference in models is that men don't have breasts. Othe than that they have the same build, faces, etc.


Eldar males and females are so similar because they are near the top of the evolutionary ladder.
Eldar haven't evolved from anything, they were made a soldiers to combat the Necrons. As such there was no evolutionary development for them and they're just as they were made. Nothing has changed them at all and everything they have is what the Old Ones gave them.

In other words, the Eldar are just sentient weapons without a master.


No Guy here or in the world thinks like that.
So it's just me then?


Dude if you want to argue do not bring of false statements.
It was mainly a joke, Mr. Serious.


It won't pop randomly in a man's mind in any given situation (though it does in mine), but whenever a man sees a woman that's even slightly attractive, sex will flash through his mind, if even for the slightest second.
Tell me about it. When women dress from head to heels in heavy, warm clothing 9 months of the year, you welcome summer and tanktops. And just because you don't think about straight sex, doesn't mean you don't have Freudian thingies buzzing around.

I remember a long time ago we were sitting in school at a chemistry class. The teacher drew two atoms side by side with their nucleuses. So it was two round thingies with dots in the middle. Me and my buddy looked at each other.
"Eyes." He said, his face having the slight hint that he knew more than he was telling.
"Them as well." I added, putting into words what both of us were thinking.


I thought it was your deep rooted slaaneshy tentacle lust thang!
Make love, not war.

Lockjaw
31-07-2008, 18:51
.


Eldar haven't evolved from anything, they were made a soldiers to combat the Necrons. As such there was no evolutionary development for them and they're just as they were made. Nothing has changed them at all and everything they have is what the Old Ones gave them.

In other words, the Eldar are just sentient weapons without a master.





actually I thought it was the Old Ones just influenced Eldar evolution a little rather than just engineering them from scratch, and eldar did come from a genetic ancestor

MrBigMr
31-07-2008, 19:26
actually I thought it was the Old Ones just influenced Eldar evolution a little rather than just engineering them from scratch, and eldar did come from a genetic ancestor
I think they did take genetic material and enhanced it, but they were made into nothing but soldiers to combat the Necrons with their strong psychic powers. The Old Ones surely did more than just enhance their natural evolution. I mean, they haven't altered at all in the past 65 000 000 years. Just look at what all has happened on Earth in that time. How much has Man evolved during the last 100 000 years?

Dominus_Serui
31-07-2008, 19:56
I thought the Orks were the soldiers to fight the Necron's and the Eldar were just the 'favored pupils'?

PondaNagura
31-07-2008, 19:56
well we don't really have any images of eldar from back then do we?

MrBigMr
31-07-2008, 21:32
Xenology mentions this, comparing ancient Eldar remains to current ones and mentions that it's amazing that they have not changed a bit in all that time.

Gensuke626
31-07-2008, 21:48
That is a true as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. No Guy here or in the world thinks like that. When in the middle of a warhammer game we are not thinking about that, when watching sports we are not thinking about that. In fat that is a urban legend http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/thinksex.asp. Dude if you want to argue do not bring of false statements.

Actually...I do think about sex every 5 to 7 seconds when I'm watching sports. My friends are sitting staring at the TV, or it's a live game and they're shouting at the feild...Meanwhile I'm checking out the Cheerleaders, the Dance squad or just the hottie in row 21... I find sports to be boring.

Chem-Dog
31-07-2008, 21:56
It's not that amazing, given their long lifespans. Also, give a species the ability to use technology to solve problems that would otherwise be left to natural selection (congenital weaknesses ect) and eveolutionary advances slow right down.

Also, if memory serves the Eldar were fully Immortal for a while (until the Nightbringer spoiled it) all the time a race is Immortal no evolutionary leaps are going to happen.

Fire In The Hole
31-07-2008, 22:28
Necrons lost all gender amongst them when they turned themselves into machines, being totally machine:chrome: and erie light:eyebrows: would do that to you.


Khorne himself is male, but I am sure that some khorne deamons are female, as hell hath no wrath than like a woman scorned,
Nurgle is an old granddaddy as are his followers as females wouldn't want to face that level of filth.
Tzeentch? I think that since he is the lord of change he isn't anything, as are his followers.
Slaneesh will be home to most of the deamonic females, killing for pleasure, skimpy outfits and all that.

Trolond
31-07-2008, 22:52
Khorne himself is male, but I am sure that some khorne deamons are female, as hell hath no wrath than like a woman scorned,
Nurgle is an old granddaddy as are his followers as females wouldn't want to face that level of filth.
Tzeentch? I think that since he is the lord of change he isn't anything, as are his followers.
Slaneesh will be home to most of the deamonic females, killing for pleasure, skimpy outfits and all that.
Well, all of the chaos gods are assumed to be male, except for Slaanesh, who is described as being able to change sexes are its whim. Daemons are without form, and, thus, are genderless. While Daemonettes appear female, they possess no capability of reproduction. The gods' human followers can be either gender, as having human hosts available is luring to any of them.

Men are space marines because their bodies fuse better with the heavy implantations and genetic manipulations. The fact that women are more resilient doesnt matter because of the multitude of SM organs that filter out toxins (Third Lung for example). However, the imperium (while patriarchal) is not sexist, as women fulfill (as stated earlier) many important roles.

Whoever was talking about Necrons earlier, Can you tell me where you read that? I really enjoy Necron fluff (other than Chaos, they're my favorite), and would like to know the source of your info.
I've also never read anything about Tau females, although I really like the idea that the Air caste is all female.
Orkz are a fungus, so they don't need females.
I'm guessing that Tyranids function much like a bee colony.

On a semi-related note, who wrote Xenology (I'm assuming it's a book), is it good, and where can I get it? I just looked on The Black Library's site and couldn't find it, so...

MrBigMr
31-07-2008, 23:17
Well, all of the chaos gods are assumed to be male, except for Slaanesh, who is described as being able to change sexes are its whim.
Eldar refer to Slaanesh as a 'she', as in 'She Who Thirsts.'
I love this comic:
http://exterminatusnow.comicgenesis.com/d/20060715.html
http://exterminatusnow.comicgenesis.com/d/20060721.html
http://exterminatusnow.comicgenesis.com/d/20060728.html
http://exterminatusnow.comicgenesis.com/d/20060804.html


Men are space marines because their bodies fuse better with the heavy implantations and genetic manipulations.
Actually, the biological explanation given is that gene-seeds work with male hormones and tissuetypes.


Whoever was talking about Necrons earlier, Can you tell me where you read that? I really enjoy Necron fluff (other than Chaos, they're my favorite), and would like to know the source of your info.
It's a little bit everywhere. Though the Necrons are genderless by body, their minds are still deep in there and should have sexual identity in them as well.


I've also never read anything about Tau females, although I really like the idea that the Air caste is all female.
Problem being that if that's true, they're not gonna last long as it's forbidden for castes to mix up.


On a semi-related note, who wrote Xenology (I'm assuming it's a book), is it good, and where can I get it? I just looked on The Black Library's site and couldn't find it, so...
Philip Sibbering.
And it depends on who you ask. It's more of a novel than some behind the scenes thing, so everything that's wrong with it is because it's made by the Imperium and they naturally don't know what they're talking about. Lots of speculation and all.

HK-47
31-07-2008, 23:44
This whole man vs. women debate is really insane just reading it is making me dizzy. It's all opinion, you can throw all the science facts, and personal experiences that you want, but because of the bias who had when you heard these facts, or experience these actions you can not make a statement about the superiority of either gender. Yes man and woman are different as are the different gender of every species that reproduce sexually, but in the end who cares? It's not important when you need soldiers, skilled workers, or tax payers, and that the conclusion that most governments and the IoM came to. If women want to fight let them, if they want to vote let them, if they want to hold high level positions and get paid the same amount as man let them. Women must them except the same responsibilities as men and nothing less must be expected of them.

Sikkukkut
01-08-2008, 00:42
Philip Sibbering.

No, Simon Spurrier.

MrBigMr
01-08-2008, 00:44
Damn, I always mix those two up.

jhon
01-08-2008, 09:34
I don't get how people just bash women and put it under not being subjucated by PC and white man's guilt. Maybe it's all the childhood summers spend in cabins with half a dozen middle aged cows or something, or my general hippie philosophy of "let all the flowers bloom", but I just don't see why all the hate or blaming PC.

Yes, women are women and I as a man with my unit are attracted to them, but at least I know how to keep it in my pants. You try sleeping between two little blong girls in olive drab T's and boxers, in a small tent filled with people. How well did I sleep? Like a log after the last 21 hours of marching and setting up the camp. Sitting in a sauna, butt naked with butt naked women. Did I have a raging boner? No. Did I engage in meaningful conversation without drooling? Yes.

Once you get around the taboo of men and women of being on the same level, you can start working better. We should stop looking at who's man and who's not, and instead just look at their papers. Will this mean more women get into places? Yes. Does it mean 50-50 split? No. I don't think that all women can do things like army service, but neither can all men. That is quite the key element here, isn't it. All you say "women make bad soldiers because this scientific study sez so." Lets say we grade everyone. Men go from from 0-100 and women from 0-80. Lets say all that score 60 get to (as in "you get to serve the Emperor") serve. So you get more men, but not all men rank up either. Same with women, not all rank up, but some do.

With equality I'm not expecting all the be 50-50, but things should be gender neutral and concentrate on the merits. Women are better at something while men are at another thing, but that doesn't stop a person with the qualifications from applying for the job. I remember when in the army they said to us that women aren't allowed into scout, paratrooper and combat diver units because it's too hard. Funny thing that women are allowed to become NCOs and Officers in those fields, which is even tougher, and there are plenty of women in the border patrol, which is the same training as what scouts get. So a woman can't become a scout because it's too hard, but she can perform the same damn training as a border patroller. Maybe it's because the border patrol is under the ministry of internal affairs and not the ministry of defense.

It's still amazing that a woman can come into a sauna full of men, when it's scheduled for them, and no one has any problems with it, but you stick your dick inside a sauna scheduled to women without first making sure everyone in there is cool with it and you're lucky to ever again pee standing up.

But I think Oscar Wilde was right:
"How can a woman be expected to be happy with a man who insists on treating her as if she were a perfectly normal human being."

well ... i dont see many lady seal in a navy today .also their are many case that a female solider get sexual abuse by their fellow mate . as for the world of 40k the imperial doesnt care who or what join the IG man or women doesnt really matter [ ofcos women are too smart NOT TO JOIN the IG , they know what IG is ] . here is the following :
if you are a low born normal human you stand infront of the blue blood , and if you are an abhuman you stand infront of the normal human , and if you are a mutie you stand infront of the abhuman ..

if you got march by a evil master chief 21 hour per day i dont think you can still sink a battle ship in front of a women but on the field that is a differant story .

a women with well training have a very high chance to kill an untrain men in CQC but, a well trian men vs a train women you know the result . you need spend nearly a mill to train a seal you rather have a more combat effective seal or a less combat effective seal . [ the passing point is 80 the women is at 90 but the men is at 95 which one you want to spend the money on ]?

Sai-Lauren
01-08-2008, 12:05
i figure there would be little gender-separation in eldar society, since their ruling caste can be male/female, and a dieing race really can't be too picky.

Agreed, for most of their lives, gender is about as important as hair colour. I've always thought there was a "Path of the Father/Mother" which an Eldar had to embark upon in order to have a child and mentally protect both themselves and their offspring.



nids seem to me to not really need any kind of genders, and norn queen seems more like a title due to it's role in similar lifeforms from ancient terra.

Well, I'd say anything under a Hive Tyrant is almost certainly a genderless drone. Any creature that does actually produce another would be technically female (hence Norn Queens, and possibly the Harridan and Dominatrix), but that would be about as far as gender goes.



I disagree. Biology states that on average, a man has more upper body strength than a woman. Man has more testosterone, therefore more muscle mass. Thus, woman will always remain the "weaker"( in a pure physical sense) sex. And since Strength is the basests form of status determination. IE in a group of all males, the weaker ones will generally be lower on the status scale. Female will remain to be the "weaker" member of any group. Thus lower on the picking order.

Only if strength is the only status measure. A world with a harsh environment and a high infant/child mortality rate could well have elevated the women into the positions of importance, making it a matriarachal society, in order to ensure their survival, and the survival of their children, even though the men are stronger.



But don't forget that Women have a better immune system and general body resistance to foreign contaminants than men. Technically from an IG standpoint making them better for deathworlds dealing with poisons,hazardous gases, viral warfare and such.

There's also the fact that they tend to have smaller frames, which means they would be better suited for tank crews and similar roles, were space is at a premium.



Orks are a ******* FUNGUS. they dont need to mate only to bleed to reproduce.

And there's old fluff about an ork kadet getting kicked in their "hurty bitz" by their tutor in order to make a point. Personally, I feel that's because the sculptors for Gorkamorka (where that fluff originated) didn't want to make female orks.



1:
Only because men are like this and women are like that in the human species doesn't mean that other species have the same differences. Hyena females have more testosterone then hyena males, and they are from same class as humans. Eldar and all other species aren't not only from a different domain, they are not even from the same planet!

True, although there are the Old Ones to consider. They may have been working off a specific template when they created the Eldar, Orks and Humans.



2:
The reason why most Inquisitors are male is because an inquisitor takes around the 1000 best students in a schola progenium, no matter gender.
Usually 900 die within a month. 90 die within ½ a year, 5 die within 1 year, 3 become mind-scrubbed servitors. 1 gets some high position as some kind of helper. 1 becomes an inquisitor. However, most "Principals" (AKA Drill Abbots) hide the best girls in the Schole and sends them to the monasteries of the adeptus sororitas (where almost all survive long enough to become the warriors of the adeptus sororitas, and some become even saints) (Since the inquisitor does not hand-pick the students). Boys don't have the same luck.

Actually, the Inquisition would probably get first dibs on Schola Progenia students, no matter what the Sororitas think. And presumably there's some official body that will only take boys (the priesthood side of the Ecclesiarchy, for example?)



3:
Marines need a Y chromosome. It turns into a Z, which turns the X into another Z. That is the only known way to turn a X into a Z. Otherwise the Sororitas would also be 8'4" 1/4 ton beasts.

Isn't the Z chromosome Phil Sibbering's idea and therefore, completely non-canon? To my mind, that kind of massive genetic change would pretty much kill all of the recipients, whilst all the genetic changes a marine needs can be made through targetted gene therapies, which is a lot less problematic.

And Marines are about 7' tall, not 8'. Phil's ideas are interesting, but totally unrealistic.



4: The Imperium is more "equal" then most countries are today. (Not "all men and women are the equal and women are more equal and important" (as some claim today), but; "I don't care whether you're a man or a woman, take your gun and kill them all, the more you kill, the more medals you'll get"!)

True, and there are more roles than line infantry.



5:Imperial guard DO have females. Imperial guard DO have mixed units.

Yep, I had the thought that some hive worlds may preferentially recruit women into the guard or other bodies that will get them off world as a way of controlling their population by limiting the number of children born.

Even bodies like the Officio Sabatorum could preferentially recruit women for use on human worlds, where they can use their gender as an additional weapon.

And one "race" no one's considered yet - Chaos. Whilst everyone thinks of the Chaos Marines, women are just as likely to fall to chaos as men, all be it in different ways.

You can possibly say that Khorne and Nurgle are the more masculine and Slaanesh and Tzeentch as the more feminine of the major gods, but it would be quite possible to have a female Khornate champion for example.

Lockjaw
01-08-2008, 17:42
Orks are a ******* FUNGUS. they dont need to mate only to bleed to reproduce.

and no they're not, they're animal's with a fugus-like way of reproducing.
really the onlything similar between an orc and a fungus is that both spore, that's it. by the same reasoning you might as well say humans are rabbits.

and on another unrelated topic, there's alot of fluff about women in command positions on ships too, so the navy isn't too picky i'd guess

HereticLosMorte
01-08-2008, 19:04
slaanesh is considered androgenous, as stated in the liber chaotica, looking neither fully male nor female, though i could see slaanesh being less androgenous and more hermaphroditic, having both male and female aspects.

Godswildcard
01-08-2008, 19:59
as far as the whole "equality for the imperium" thing goes, I suggest you read DOUBLE EAGLE by Dan Abnett (I think). The main character is a female IG Squadron commander (and yes, she is IG, long story, unique situation) and there is no instance in the book where she is treated any differently than anyone else. Also, there are several other women in the book and one of them even makes the Apostles squadron (think uber crack unit). Also one of the few Warhammer books with a sorta/kinda love story.

madd0ct0r
01-08-2008, 23:07
For those of you drawing the bee analogy with tyranids - worker bees are also female. The only difference between a worker drone and the queen is what they eat. Take a worker and feed it up on the royal jelly (real term) and you have a second queen.

Ant's and termites are genetically complex but i belive their workers are all female too.
Intrestingly, they are more closely related to each other and the Queen's offspring then they would be to their own. Hence why selfish breeding isn't selected for.

Since Nid's have rather more control over the types of their offspring I imagine they might have moved beyond this though.

Logarithm Udgaur
02-08-2008, 05:38
I would not take anything Dan Abnett has authored as any way official, as he seems to have way to many unique situations to fit whatever tale he is telling. His books also tend to be really good until the deadline crunch hits and they fall apart in the last few chapters.

Poseidal
02-08-2008, 10:14
Agreed, for most of their lives, gender is about as important as hair colour. I've always thought there was a "Path of the Father/Mother" which an Eldar had to embark upon in order to have a child and mentally protect both themselves and their offspring.
Among my Eldar, hair colour is of the utmost importance!!!!

HereticLosMorte
05-08-2008, 14:20
Nid hive ships use DNA replication to grow new nids in vats, there are no male or female in the species, they're test tube babies for all purposes. they aren't grown from the womb or hatched from eggs, it's all just a laboratory of alien craziness.

Sai-Lauren
05-08-2008, 14:58
Specialist, non astartes men get suited up with Carapace armor and a Hellgun.
Specialist, non astartes women get suited up in Power Armor, and get a Bolter.
Granted, not every woman becomes a sororitas, but if you look at it, a woman has a much better chance of wearing power armor than a man.

I'd just like to point out the term Stormtrooper is genderless.

There's nothing to say that there aren't female stormtroopers, in fact, as they're based off Schola Progenia worlds, are a tour of duty for Commissar Cadets, and there are female Commissars, it's highly likely that there are female Stormtroopers. ;)



Among my Eldar, hair colour is of the utmost importance!!!!

What's your craftworld called then, Lor'eal? :p

And to quote Mel Smith and Griff Rhys-Jones: Sassoon - the first casualty of war is your haircut.:D

inq.serge
05-08-2008, 15:30
Khorne himself is male, but I am sure that some khorne deamons are female, as hell hath no wrath than like a woman scorned,
Nurgle is an old granddaddy as are his followers as females wouldn't want to face that level of filth.
Tzeentch? I think that since he is the lord of change he isn't anything, as are his followers.
Slaneesh will be home to most of the deamonic females, killing for pleasure, skimpy outfits and all that.

WRONG!WRONG!WRONG! (A la AA)

Daemons are neither male nor female! They can look like they are, but in fact are not!
Daemons do not Reproduce, they are Created!
Daemons have no cells, DNA, Blood, bones, skins, hair, mouths, claws, teeth, wings, eyes, whatever! They are dark grey and formless, but may take any shape they want, and get any texture/colour they want. Poke a daemon in the eyes: Nothing happens, it still can see. Kick it in the groin! As painful as hit on the arm. They just look like they have those parts!

And the daemon gods are neither male nor female, and have followers of all sexes.



Actually, the Inquisition would probably get first dibs on Schola Progenia students, no matter what the Sororitas think. And presumably there's some official body that will only take boys (the priesthood side of the Ecclesiarchy, for example?)

Inquisitor: [calls Ecclesiarchy]: Hi, giveth me thy greatest disciples!
Drill abbot (to Inq) OK, They be readie for thy arrivale!
Inq: Ok.
Drill abbot to students: OK, alle ye gather, thee shall be takeneth to ye greate teste. Except ye greate gales, thee shall hide, and become greate saints oponeth this worlde.

[And the inq does not know about the hidden girls. and Even if they have first dibs, the drill abbot still send the best (and most faithful) female students to their own army!]



And Marines are about 7' tall, not 8'. Phil's ideas are interesting, but totally unrealistic.

WRONG!WRONG!WRONG! they are 8'4".

It's not something Phil made up. They're that big Inquisitor, the GW game where the rules are based on the background. 40k marines are shadowed down. They should be Ws4, Bs4, St8, T7, W3, I4, A3, Ld9. (And inq-scale marines are bigger compared to a human of same scale then 40k marines).


and no they're not, they're animal's with a fugus-like way of reproducing.


WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!

Orks are neither animals nor fungus since they are not from Terra! They are some kind of Xenozoofungushybrydoid.



For those of you drawing the bee analogy with tyranids - worker bees are also female.
Not wrong, but still, worker bees (who are female) have, IIRC, other types of chromosomes, and instead of ovaries, poison glands, and instead of womb, a poison "stinger".

MrBigMr
05-08-2008, 15:39
Daemons are neither male nor female! They can look like they are, but in fact are not!
Daemons do not Reproduce, they are Created!
Daemons have no cells, DNA, Blood, bones, skins, hair, mouths, claws, teeth, wings, eyes, whatever! They are dark grey and formless, but may take any shape they want, and get any texture/colour they want. Poke a daemon in the eyes: Nothing happens, it still can see. Kick it in the groin! As painful as hit on the arm. They just look like they have those parts!
Well, that's up for debate. Daemon can have permanent damage done to them, like the wingless bloodthirster and I'm pretty sure if you summon a daemon with a pair and proceed to kick it on them, it'll feel it. If you could do anything to a daemon and it didn't matter, they could keep coming even with reduced into a blob of goo. But they don't. Cause enough damage and they go down.


WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!

Orks are neither animals nor fungus since they are not from Terra! They are some kind of Xenozoofungushybrydoid.
So when scientists find bacteria in space, it's not bacteria because it's not earth borne? If it fills in the criteria for animal or fungus, it's fungus no matter where it comes from. Simple science.

Trolond
05-08-2008, 15:51
WRONG!WRONG!WRONG! they are 8'4".

It's not something Phil made up. They're that big Inquisitor, the GW game where the rules are based on the background. 40k marines are shadowed down. They should be Ws4, Bs4, St8, T7, W3, I4, A3, Ld9. (And inq-scale marines are bigger compared to a human of same scale then 40k marines).

Where are you getting this "height" thing from? I have always estimated that the average marine is ~7'8" tall, while Terminators are around 8'6"...

And yes, in "reality (40k version, of course)" marines should have higher stats, but they don't because if they did, the game would be rediculously unfair.

inq.serge
05-08-2008, 16:01
@above post: I don't remember exact source, but it has something to do with the INQ game. And GW shadows them down since they would not be economical to the company. (If the models would be a little bit bigger, cost a little bit more in £ per model, and a lot more in pts per model (A la ½ bloodthirser each), it wouldn't give a big profit.)

@mr big mr.
Evolution is alfa and omega of Biology. All the domains, classes, kingdoms (I.E. Animals) are based on how they evolved from each other.

"Alien life" did not evolve from Terra life (If we're talking life from other origins), and therefore can not be fitted in into our specie system (And therefore, an Ork is neither an animal nor a fungus), and must therefore have their own xenosystem. (One xenosystem per life-origin that is).

They might be called "bacteria" but they are not "Bacteria" since they are not from the "Bacteria"-kingdom in the prokaryote Domain. Earth life is either Prokaryote, archaea or eukaryote. They have evolved from different sources of life, and should, IMHO, not be classed in any of those three domains, but in an own "Xeno-[wathever]-oid di-[Homeworld-name]" domain. (With xeno- and -oid if resembles something from earth life.) .

In the future, there might be alien life born and living on non-home-world planets, but the do not belong to the native life. (I.E: Humans: 2 strings in a helix DNA. Orks: 2 strings in a helix and a third warped around them DNA. Eldar: 4 strings in a double-helix DNA. Tyranids: Mix an match DNA.) The difference is to big.

Hellebore
05-08-2008, 16:05
Well, that's up for debate. Daemon can have permanent damage done to them, like the wingless bloodthirster and I'm pretty sure if you summon a daemon with a pair and proceed to kick it on them, it'll feel it. If you could do anything to a daemon and it didn't matter, they could keep coming even with reduced into a blob of goo. But they don't. Cause enough
damage and they go down.


The daemon was injured by Khorne, so the removal of its wings would simply be a matter of Khorne denying it the power to form them in the first place (as the daemon is just a piece of its god anyway).



So when scientists find bacteria in space, it's not bacteria because it's not earth borne? If it fills in the criteria for animal or fungus, it's fungus no matter where it comes from. Simple science.

If it didn't grow within the evolutionary tree of life on earth then no, it can't be a bacteria. It can be bacteria-like, because it has analogous features, but in order to be a literal bacteria it needs to be homologous to one from earth.

Fungus doesn't have multicellular differentiated organs, skeletons, sensory apparatus etc.

Orks are supposed to be 'hybridised' animal/fungus, symbiotically existing in a single organism.



WRONG!WRONG!WRONG! they are 8'4".

It's not something Phil made up. They're that big Inquisitor, the GW game where the rules are based on the background. 40k marines are shadowed down. They should be Ws4, Bs4, St8, T7, W3, I4, A3, Ld9. (And inq-scale marines are bigger compared to a human of same scale then 40k marines).



You know people might actually listen to your arguments if you didn't start every paragraph with WRONG!WRONG!WRONG! :eyebrows:

You Do realise that 40k exists in a base 10 system right? where 1 is the lowest and 10 the highest? You are saying that marines are stronger than a bloodthirster and tougher than a hive tyrant? Really?

If a marine is S8 then a warboss is S12 and a Bloodthirster S18. Wraithlords are S20 and C'tan are S30.

You can't amp up marines in a 10 based system and expect everything else to sit at the same level, because warbosses ARE stronger than marines, bloodthirsters ARE stronger than warbosses, and C'tan crap out stars for party tricks.

Hellebore

Sai-Lauren
05-08-2008, 16:33
WRONG!WRONG!WRONG! (A la AA)

Daemons are neither male nor female! They can look like they are, but in fact are not!
Daemons do not Reproduce, they are Created!
Daemons have no cells, DNA, Blood, bones, skins, hair, mouths, claws, teeth, wings, eyes, whatever! They are dark grey and formless, but may take any shape they want, and get any texture/colour they want. Poke a daemon in the eyes: Nothing happens, it still can see. Kick it in the groin! As painful as hit on the arm. They just look like they have those parts!

And the daemon gods are neither male nor female, and have followers of all sexes.

Although it's true that they are essentially packets of emotions and thoughts given form, they could still be masculine or feminine depending on what they're made up of.

And what about the Daemon Princes, they were once mortals, and would have had gender then. Some may have decided to lose it on ascension, most wouldn't.




Inquisitor: [calls Ecclesiarchy]: Hi, giveth me thy greatest disciples!
Drill abbot (to Inq) OK, They be readie for thy arrivale!
INQ: Ok.
Drill abbot to students: OK, alle ye gather, thee shall be takeneth to ye greate teste. Except ye greate gales, thee shall hide, and become greate saints oponeth this worlde.

[And the INQ does not know about the hidden girls. and Even if they have first dibs, the drill abbot still send the best (and most faithful) female students to their own army!]

Oh please. The Inquisition probably know the names, dates of birth and most embarrasing secrets of everyone there, because it'll all be written down somewhere. All they've got to do is look, and they're very good at looking.
If they want someone, and they're not brought to them on request, you really wouldn't want to be the person they talk to next.

Besides which they won't call ahead, they'll just turn up, grab who they want and leave again.



WRONG!WRONG!WRONG! they are 8'4".

It's not something Phil made up. They're that big Inquisitor, the GW game where the rules are based on the background. 40K marines are shadowed down. They should be Ws4, Bs4, St8, T7, W3, I4, A3, Ld9. (And inq-scale marines are bigger compared to a human of same scale then 40K marines).

The picture with the scale saying they're 8'. Look at the bottom - it starts at 1', not 0.

No less a person than Gav Thorpe has also said they're averaging out to 7', back when he was still in the studio. There's a post in a thread around here somewhere.

Just think for a minute, rather than shouting. What advantages do they have being 8' tall rather than 7'? What disadvantages do they have with that extra size and bulk? And what are you starting with, DNA in a test tube, or a normal human being, with the "design specs" of such?

And that would be Inquisitor, the game which started out as a good idea, failed because it never really delivered, and thenfell apart and wound up getting dragged down in a huge pile of Marinehammer. :rolleyes:

MrBigMr
05-08-2008, 16:38
Orks are supposed to be 'hybridised' animal/fungus, symbiotically existing in a single organism.
Don't you mean "'hybridised' xyxxy/qwerty, symbiotically existing in a single organism"? They're not animal not bacterial.

Doesn't animal pretty much like contain everything that's not plant or rock? So what makes an alien "animal" (oh, I mean "xyxxy") in function so different from Earth animal (Terranus Xyxxys)? You got all sorts of crazy critters even on this planet referred to as an "animal", so unless the alien thingy is a living rock or a flying plant in the shape of woman's private parts, I think it's safe to call it an "animal."

Besides, isn't the big theory that origins of Earth borne life traced to Mars. So we ourselves are aliens to this world. So if we plant same microbes on another planet, and they grown in that environment, apart from evolutionary alterations, they're traced back to the same origin.


I'd leave such debates to the lifeless eggheads that killed Pluto and all that. Majority of sciense is just "on 4+ of a D6 it'll be a mammal, otherwise it'll be a fish."

inq.serge
05-08-2008, 16:43
Doesn't animal pretty much like contain everything that's not plant or rock?
NO!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Phylogenetic_tree.svg

@sri:

The main difference between the inquisition and the rest, is that it's not bureaucratic. They CAN control that the abbot gives them the best and doesn't hide some for their own army, but they don't control, since they have more important things to do with their time. And they simply don't care much since those students would most likely die anyway.

Poseidal
05-08-2008, 17:27
It's not something Phil made up. They're that big Inquisitor, the GW game where the rules are based on the background. 40K marines are shadowed down. They should be Ws4, Bs4, St8, T7, W3, I4, A3, Ld9. (And inq-scale marines are bigger compared to a human of same scale then 40K marines).
The problem when people think of stats is they think they're all linear. If you look at it logarithmically: "A marine is twice the strength of a man" - so S4 is twice S3; S5 is twice S4 etc.

Now, if you look at things like a Wraithlord being S10, and compare, say, the strength of a pneumatic arm used in construction to the strength of a man the scale begins to make more sense.

So the current statline of a marine is more than enough to represent one; movie marines are just marines who get a level of 'Hollywood invulnerability' so are not 'accurate'.

madd0ct0r
05-08-2008, 22:54
At the risk of being pedantic - sister's of battle are also tools of the inquisition. The chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus.
Why would an Inq prefer to have stormtroopers over sisters? (answer, cos he's Ordo Malleus and can't afford the Grey Knights, but even so...)
Now this is tied into how the sister's recruit (beyond the orphans line given in the codex). This is an important subject to some on this thread and I don't want to start it all off again.


Regarding Ork classification: they are clearly a phylumn apart from everything else but Eldar with some minor links to Earth life. In other words, they go into that big box marked 'Old Ones was 'ere
How do you classify an engineered ecosystem capable of regenarating itself from a single spore? Perhaps the Ork tribes and associated growth are simply best classed as one unit with the Klan's denoting individual subspecies.
In this case a Waaagh counts as no more the spongarium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilobolus), launching those deadly little mobile spores across the garden/solarsystem.
Pedantically they are completly seperate, but to use purely descriptive methods they are best classed as a fungus.
Either way they're not female.

Savior117
05-08-2008, 22:58
Am I the only one who noticed the second devolution of this topic from women to genetics to realism in 40K? FFS, its just a game and an alternate universe.

@inq.serge: caps lock is not cruise control for cool.

Just to [try to] settle a few debates, there's a mention in the Eisenhorn series of the Cadian and Kasrkin gaurd units being split 50-50 male-female. The schola progenium feeds the Commisariat, Stormtrooper regiments, the Inquisition, the adeptus sororitas, and the Officio Assassinorum. Its really a toss up as to where they might go.

Typically in fantasy writing Humans and Elves (err.. Eldar) are fully compatible sexually, but create halfbreeds. (Much like the creating of mules/hinnys but without the sterility. I don't see why GW would change this. Besides, the Eldar are far to arrogant to mate with a lowly human.

MrBigMr
06-08-2008, 00:04
Am I the only one who noticed the second devolution of this topic from women to genetics to realism in 40K? FFS, its just a game and an alternate universe.
Ain't like grand? It's like following some political debate.


Besides, the Eldar are far to arrogant to mate with a lowly human.
Oh, the fluff begs to differ. So far to my knowledge there's two Eldar-Human hybrids (born from a human mother with the sweet, sweet loving of an Eldar father). One being the Ultramarine master astropath and another one a special character in Necromunda.

Toramino
06-08-2008, 00:58
this thread is a prime example of why internet forums are worthless wastelands

Killgore
06-08-2008, 02:19
this thread is a prime example of why internet forums are worthless wastelands

much like my original answer to this thread on the first page

stupid threads deserve stupid answers


who cares about women and breeding? this is the wartorn world of the 41st millenium, no one cares where the babys come from, as long as theres enough meat for the grinder

Savior117
06-08-2008, 04:02
Oh, the fluff begs to differ. So far to my knowledge there's two Eldar-Human hybrids (born from a human mother with the sweet, sweet loving of an Eldar father). One being the Ultramarine master astropath and another one a special character in Necromunda.

I stand (sit) corrected, then.
Wait, haven't we had this same thread at least twice before....

Hellebore
06-08-2008, 08:02
Ain't like grand? It's like following some political debate.


Oh, the fluff begs to differ. So far to my knowledge there's two Eldar-Human hybrids (born from a human mother with the sweet, sweet loving of an Eldar father). One being the Ultramarine master astropath and another one a special character in Necromunda.

You aren't talking about Kal Jericho are you? His mother isn't an eldar.

Besides, the fluff disagrees with that as well. Xenology shows multistranded DNA for the eldar, completely incompatible with human DNA, not to mention the procreation method requires specific mating sequences from both parties.

They also have more chromosomes than a human and chromosomal imbalance is one of the main causes of hybrid malfunction in animals.

Thus modern fluff trumps old fluff (RT era eldar were just D&D elves that could produce Half elves, not the modern, true alienness of the eldar) when it contradicts it. You could easily explain away those two previous 'hybrids' as either Inquisitorial genetic experiments that can't naturally happen (and are thus as likely as human dog hybrids) or as heresay - rumours about said individuals without a basis in fact.

Either way, the genetics of the eldar as described and illustrated in Xenology are opposed to hybridisation, and as old fluff is trumped by newer fluff (or do the Space Wolves still slavishly follow the codex astartes like they did in 1989?) eldar cannot breed with humans.

EDIT: The biggest genetics mistake people make is equating appearance with genetic similarity. THIS IS NOT TRUE. Just because a human and an eldar share a superficial phenotype does in no way suggest they are homologous organisms. Sharks, dolphins, ichthyosaurs all share a similar phenotype, yet they each come from a seperate order of organisms.

insect wings descend from carapace outgrowths whilst bird wings descend from the forelimb. Both perform the same function but they do so from completely different genetic histories.

Humans actually have a common ancestor with dogs and thus are guaranteed to be more genetically compatible with them then they are with an alien race from a completely seperate genetic system/history.


Hellebore

Iuris
06-08-2008, 08:08
Human Eldar hybrids, eh? Well, I'm sure some tech somewhere could find a way to make it work, but could someone expand on the topic a bit?

MrBigMr
06-08-2008, 08:54
much like my original answer to this thread on the first page

stupid threads deserve stupid answers
Oh, thank you, thank you very much. Lets just talk about how daemons are broken, the new CSM is crap and what army some dude should start. That's so much better.


who cares about women and breeding? this is the wartorn world of the 41st millenium, no one cares where the babys come from, as long as theres enough meat for the grinder
I've never asked about those things actually. I've only asked about do non-human races have split by sex and if there's physical differences between males and females like there are with humans, Eldar, etc. Everything else just came up along the way.

Why does one care? Why not? I mean I like to know more than all the "there is only war." The whole concept is retarded to begin with. Right, every world in the entire galaxy is nothing but endless battle, people and equipment just appearing from endless factories that produce it from thin air. Imperial citizens sleep, eat, live and poo just like you and me. It's bad enough that some scifi universes describe a planet to have the same environment all over (Just like Earth is... Um, a waterworld? No, we have forests, so it's a forest world. But there's also large areas of desert. And ice. Oh man, what is this crap?), but 40K goes a step further by describing the entire universe to be alike.

And maybe some of us want to do other than use the stock GW models with stock GW fluff. Maybe some want to do those female guardsmen, fire warriors and Kroot and since there's no models for them and no info on whether or not female Kroot are the same things as stock Kroot models, it's good to know. And knowing stuff that has no aspect on the game helps to write better fluff when it's not like reading a battle report. If I want that, I'll play the game.


You aren't talking about Kal Jericho are you? His mother isn't an eldar.
No, Drag the Hunter (or something like that). And I said that both subjects had a human mother with an Eldar father. The other one is the Ultramarine astropath.


Besides, the fluff disagrees with that as well. Xenology shows multistranded DNA for the eldar, completely incompatible with human DNA, not to mention the procreation method requires specific mating sequences from both parties.
I don't care what "sciense" says about it, it has happened and I don't see anything about GW denying it all of a sudden. Besides, if things like Kroot and Tyranids are able to eat anything and take DNA from it for their own benefits, doing some chemistry 101 in a womb is not that far fetched in the end.

Loverboy was wrong. Again.

Toramino
06-08-2008, 11:08
I don't care what "sciense" says about it, it has happened and I don't see anything about GW denying it all of a sudden. Besides, if things like Kroot and Tyranids are able to eat anything and take DNA from it for their own benefits, doing some chemistry 101 in a womb is not that far fetched in the end.

lol i love this, so were ignoring explicitly stated fluff (and genetics) in favour of peoples insane theories now are we?

but hold on science, mrbigmr is on the phone and has a solution, according to him the womb just needs to cook up some ''chemistry 101'' and we'll get over that minor speedbump.

tell you what, get a human and a chimpanzee and try to breed a hybrid out of them, i think youll be quite surprised :D:D:D

madd0ct0r
06-08-2008, 12:55
not as surprised as the chimp was. ahem.

Hellebore
06-08-2008, 13:05
I don't care what "sciense" says about it, it has happened and I don't see anything about GW denying it all of a sudden. Besides, if things like Kroot and Tyranids are able to eat anything and take DNA from it for their own benefits, doing some chemistry 101 in a womb is not that far fetched in the end.

Loverboy was wrong. Again.

They denied it by the fluff not supporting it.

Live in your little ******** world if you want I really don't care.

Just as GW's fluff once said orks were marsupials and now it says they are spore producers. Not once did they explicitly say that the marsupial concept was wrong. They just wrote new fluff that contradicted it.

Just as GW's fluff once said eldar could reproduce with humans (because their genetics are compatible) now it says their genetics AREN'T compatible, ergo they can't interbreed.

It doesn't have to explicitly say that a C'tan isn't a rubber chicken for it not to be true. It simply has to provide another concept that makes the rubber chicken hypothesis impossible. As the Xenology book has done.

Hellebore

PondaNagura
06-08-2008, 14:08
even if the older fluff was still possible (i don't believe eldar and humans can mate...), i don't think that the Smurfs, the poster boys for proper marine-ing would willing adopt a known human/xenos hybrid.

plus there have been plenty of changes/drops to older fluff, take for instance squats...no longer recognized by GW as a playable race (hellbore its just an example, dont kill me), or rainbow warriors,
female marines...

also back in the RT days, weren't the smurfs supposedly a second founding of the rainbow warriors? don't think that's cannon anymore, but i havent found anything to stop from saying that.

Poseidal
06-08-2008, 14:36
rainbow warriors
I remember the Rainbow Warriors from the RT book, but not much about them. What was so controversial about them?

MrBigMr
06-08-2008, 15:13
lol i love this, so were ignoring explicitly stated fluff (and genetics) in favour of peoples insane theories now are we?
Where exactly is it stated that they're not compatible? I skimmed throuh my copy of Xenology along the Eldar bit and only thing I found was the double and quad helixes of the human and Eldar DNA. And by the looks of the the Eldar DNA is just two double helixes mixed together. I don't know if it's true or official, but I remember some source saying that the Eldar DNA is capable of correcting and fixing itself. So lets say it's introduced to human DNA during conception, and it recognized it (Old Ones did them both), it would do its best to fit in. Right? I mean, look at the Tyranid DNA strand that looks like a patchwork of things, changing its form from various helixes.

People are trying to cram modern day genetics into a universe that has stuff like the Kroot that eat some animal and get benefits from it by assimilating the DNA of it. Where does that sit in your little world of science?


Live in your little ******** world if you want I really don't care.
Oh, come on now, a little civility here my good man. No need to get your tights all in a bunch. Lets just kiss and make up, shall we?


As the Xenology book has done.
Can you give me a page number or something, since I don't seem to find that bit in there.


plus there have been plenty of changes/drops to older fluff, take for instance squats...no longer recognized by GW as a playable race
Neither are many other factions, but they're still in the background. It's not like they were removed from the world, just from the game. Even if their homeworld was erased, not every single Squat happened to be on the planet when it met its unfortunate fate. The most certainly were colonies here and there, not to forget all the soldiers running around in wars all over the place.


rainbow warriors
Though they're presented on the GW website.
Second last:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/chapter%2Dgallery/4/


female marines...
I ain't touching that with a ten foot fluff pole.

Sai-Lauren
06-08-2008, 16:07
Even if Eldar and Humans are genetically compatible, can you really see an Eldar looking at a Human and thinking "Yeah, I'd jump that!"?

Pretty much only if the Farseer said they had to (and such children would have a "Destiny", which they may not actually want to know about), otherwise, at best we're into captured tissue samples and in vitro fertilisation, at worst, rape (think what happened to the Six copy Gina aboard the Pegasus in S2 of Battlestar Galactica).

And the half-eldar Marine.
In their slight defence, it was the early days, but still - what were they thinking?

Tarota
06-08-2008, 16:18
And the half-eldar Marine.
In their slight defence, it was the early days, but still - what were they thinking?
Honestly, I'm more confused by the concept of "Marine Astropath". Was this character actually a Marine, or just an Astropath associated with the chapter?

MrBigMr
06-08-2008, 16:22
Even if Eldar and Humans are genetically compatible, can you really see an Eldar looking at a Human and thinking "Yeah, I'd jump that!"?
Yeah, I mean that's like beastiality or something, right? Because no one does that. Ever. Not in a million years.


And the half-eldar Marine.
He wasn't a Marine, just an Astropath.

Chainsworded Codpiece
06-08-2008, 16:41
He wasn't a Marine, just an Astropath.

Yeah, it was a wierd deal.

This was back when the Spacer'inos were still being hashed out, you see.

Roboute Guilliman was an opportunistic military commander who found Macragge, but he wasn't a Marine.

The Ultramarines were (I think) a third-founding from their progenitors, the Rainbow Warriors. One might assume, as I did, that there were also 'Marines Rubescent' and 'Viridian Legionnaires' out here somewhere too; there first and second foundings...

Okay, so the Astropath , Illya Nastase, was a product of the rape (I think?) of one of the Ultra's women serfs. Nastase, becuase of some Master of the Household's caprice, was brought up indentured as a nominal slave to the Chapter. His high psychic ability made him an asset, so he was semi-inducted; allowed to wear powered armor with Spacer'ino pauldrons, and to wear Ultra heraldry. His also served in the field alongside the Ultras. He looked like an Ultra, done up in full armor; everyone still hated him, though, particularly the Master of Recruits.

BTW, the Ultras ALSO had a Navigator mutant who wore the armor and wore the icons of the Ultras. His name was Christo Columbine.

EDIT: Everyone present-
We all understand that MrBigMr is, um,tweaking some noses, right?
I mean, I'm waaaaay uptight when it comes to some issues, the representation of women in 40K/RPGs/'nerd social retard society'-in-general...but, I mean, don't get too vitriolic.

MrBigMr, merely a soft aside (I'm not a mod or anything); when people bust their asses figuring out an argument based on reason and actual biological facts (Holy HAnnah,on the Intarntz?), they get a little crazy when the response appears to be "flippancy-first, actual response later". I'm pretty sure you're not being a bastard, but it might have appeared that way.

inq.serge
06-08-2008, 19:20
@inq.serge: caps lock is not cruise control for cool.


I only use caps when I'm angry. It has nothing to do with me trying to be cool. If I was trying to be cool, I would not use all caps!
________

Back to quasi-topic:

1: Eldar are no longer able to mate with humans to procreate.

2: Orks are neither animal nor fungus. They do have some traits similar to both those of animals and those of fungus, but not all traits of both. They are some kind of Xenofungioid.

3: I'm tired of this thread going off-topic into science vs pseudo-science fights.

MrBigMr
06-08-2008, 23:20
2: Orks are neither animal nor fungus. They do have some traits similar to both those of animals and those of fungus, but not all traits of both. They are some kind of Xenofungioid.
How about Orkoid? Isn't that like the official definition of the whole race from lowly snotlings up to the bigger things?


3: I'm tired of this thread going off-topic into science vs pseudo-science fights.
What thread isn't? There's a thread about why Dark Elf Cold Ones get hatred with people coming with various explanations.


We all understand that MrBigMr is, um,tweaking some noses, right?
You mean I'm being a total ******* just for the sake of it? I won't deny it, but there's a perfectly good explanation for it, which actually rose up at work one day. See, I don't tend to do anything without thinking it through (as hard as it might be to believe), and when I'm not sure, I do point it out.

Anyway, I also have the problem of expecting everyone else to do that too, so I'm a little hard in accepting perfectly contradictory ideas. If someone can give good explanation and make me see the reasoning in such things, I am more than willing to alter my views. I have done it many times and continue to do it, but not just because someone sez so. Mere "never gonna happen" or "not possible" is not realy explaining anything, it's just saying "no" in different words. Tell me why not. Open my eyes to the truth. That's what I'm tying to do, to loosen the sphincter of denial, grease it up a bit to ease the insertion of an idea.

I love it when people just point to a codex or something and tell us that it's the word of G(od)W and nothing (until the next codex/WD article/novel/rulebook/etc.) will change it, while at the same time GW themselves is saying that there is no canon. That's how religions get started.

I'm not trying to make people accept things they don't want to or believe what I believe, simply to get them to accept the fact that their views are their own and not GW's. There is no universal truth about the world, it's all more or less subjective. We all form our own views on things and looking down on someones because it has less fluff support than your vanilla, straight from the codex view.


MrBigMr, merely a soft aside (I'm not a mod or anything); when people bust their asses figuring out an argument based on reason and actual biological facts (Holy HAnnah,on the Intarntz?), they get a little crazy when the response appears to be "flippancy-first, actual response later". I'm pretty sure you're not being a bastard, but it might have appeared that way.
No, I understand it, and real world physics are always a good base for fictional universes, but only a base. You got gods, creatures of pure energy, things that can assimilate any DNA (and all things have DNA), space monsters, etc. So those biological facts are pretty much thrown out of the window the moment a Kroot eats some psycher flesh and becomes one himself. And it's not like the developers and fluffers have Nobels hanging on their walls on the various fields.

So until there's an objective, non-in world POV statement against a subject (GW saying "people please, no *insert issue*"), its open season for all. Why? Because the rules don't say "color along the edges, model only with the bits supplied and the latest fluff is your god." It tells us to have fun and to be creative. To someone being creative is creating their own faction, army, fluff and all, and to others its a perfectly organized Ultramarines chapter or company. And neither of them is entitled to be "better" than the other. Someone comes up and goes "yeah, nice conversions and all man, but my army is official and your's is just a fun army ala. Pretty Marines and Hello Kitty" and they better leave fast or they're getting punched.


I've actually been compiling a sort of fluff query to GW, knowing there's a strong chance I'll never get anything out of it, but I'm willing to try and see what goes and what doesn't. Better than all the arguing.

Xollob
06-08-2008, 23:52
except it's not. Some worlds within the Imperium remain patriarchal, and it's partriachal as far as their god being male is concerned, but the Imperium itself is not really sexist in any way shape or form.

Whats so bad a patriarchy anyway, everyone seems to be in favour of matriarchies but i'm puzzled as to why something female dominated is automatically going to be better than something male dominated

madd0ct0r
07-08-2008, 00:11
I'm not so sure about everyone being in favour of matriarchies. They can be very scary places. In vietnamese history two sister's lead the nation agaisnt the chinese. On elephants and with big spiky spears. Big spikes are a recurring theme in Vietnam.

I'm pretty sure equality is prefferred, but matriarchies are known to exist in the Imperium and some of us would like the models to represent this.
That issue leads neatly into this thread - namely "what do the alien females do?" Promptly followed be some discusssion, rampant speculation, arguments, sulks and idiots declaring women cannot make good soldiers.

And back on topic: DE

Are female's only present as wych's? or do they turn up as regualr warriors too?

MrBigMr
07-08-2008, 00:29
Whats so bad a patriarchy anyway, everyone seems to be in favour of matriarchies but i'm puzzled as to why something female dominated is automatically going to be better than something male dominated
I don't care who's in lead, as long as they do their job right. So far for the last 8 years the president has been a woman (up until 2012) and I haven't noticed any major difference.


Are female's only present as wych's? or do they turn up as regualr warriors too?
Well, warrior sprues come with female torsos and I believe one of the lord models is a female as well.

Chainsworded Codpiece
07-08-2008, 00:42
Whats so bad a patriarchy anyway, everyone seems to be in favour of matriarchies but i'm puzzled as to why something female dominated is automatically going to be better than something male dominated

What?! Who's "everybody", exactly?

Most of those "in favor" are "in favor" of better mini/in-game/in-fluff representation of what is (at least in Humans) around 51% of the species population.

In no way does that mean they want a matriarchy.

Why would you assume that it's binary...male absolute rule OR female absolute rule? that's what those '-archies' mean, after all.

In reality, thinking people without strong psychological screwups tend to prefer that their heirarchies not be based entirely on accident of birth.

If you need to ask, "What's so bad about patriarchy...", well, wow. Go have fun living in the Middle Ages, I guess.

Yeah, as for matriarchies, history has shown us that they generally replicate the traits of every other oligarchic or autocratic social structure; i.e.-to any person with any notion of liberty, THEY SUCKED.

EDIT: Having now read the thread twice, I realize that, while he is still the most contentious being typing in it, MrBigMr is also the most entertaining. And, because of the usual f@kktards who come up with "who cares about wimminz" two-sentence replies, he is also more easily sympathized with.

There goes my "Let's be civil" idea. Now I'm breaking my own rules. :(

MrBigMr
07-08-2008, 01:29
EDIT: Having now read the thread twice, I realize that, while he is still the most contentious being typing in it, MrBigMr is also the most entertaining. And, because of the usual f@kktards who come up with "who cares about wimminz" two-sentence replies, he is also more easily sympathized with.
Aaaawwww, that's sweet. Buy me a dinner and a movie and you might just get lucky tonight...

Lord Malice
07-08-2008, 02:17
I'd still say that Tau Fire Caste females are just as likely to fight as their male counterparts but their must be a number of the Fire Caste, particularly the females I would have thought, who are kept safe. Afterall, not much point having a warrior caste if they go off and get themselves all killed.

As for the otehr castes I'd imagine they all live relatively normal lives, within the confines of the Tau'va. I can see females, especially Fire Caste, who produce many offspring being given medals and such as the National Socialists did. I'd very much expect a Spartan style arrangment where the females are as strong and tough as the males but they aren't all marched off to war because they need to stay alive until they have offspring.

Perhaps Tau, Fire Caste females might have a child or two and then fight while those who stay at home are honoured for playing their part in the advance of the Greater Good. Since the Fire Caste are genetically gifted for war and since the modern Tau rely on their technology rather than physical ability to win the day I don't suppose a male will be any more capable than a female; they're just more expendable.

I'd imagine that all Fire Caste are lean and wiry so, as with real-life soldiers, their armour hides their physcial features, such as they are. Air Caste are tall and stick thin so not much of a difference between sexes their either. Earth Caste are stocky and well built so I imagine the females would be stocky and well built too, proper farm girls. Which just leaves the Water Caste who I magine would have shapes and sizes that would make it plain who mas male and who female.

Sai-Lauren
07-08-2008, 12:54
No, I understand it, and real world physics are always a good base for fictional universes, but only a base.

Agree to an extent. There's a lot we don't know about physics, and how many times has physics changed to accomodate new thinking (??? to Gallileo to Newton to Einstein to Quantum Mechanics to ???).

But there are still rules - for example, an unsupported object will fall under the effects of gravity, whether it's down to mass attraction, space-time curvature, gravitons or little invisible ninja fairies carrying it, and there are certain things that we can extrapolate from what we know to at least some extent.



You got gods, creatures of pure energy, things that can assimilate any DNA (and all things have DNA), space monsters, etc. So those biological facts are pretty much thrown out of the window the moment a Kroot eats some psycher flesh and becomes one himself.

Actually, we assimilate DNA - when you eat anything, be it a steak or a stick of celery, enzymes break down the DNA strands in it into nucleic acid molecules, which are then absorbed and used during cell division (especially if you're a pregnant woman).

Ok, we don't then take the best physical attributes of what we've eaten, or memories or things like that, but I suppose Tyrannids could have a pre-digestion chamber with some DNA synthase enzymes in it to replicate the strands, and I'm sure we could come up with some way of assessing the gene sequences for what they add to see whether they're actually useful, or whether it's a dead end and should just be broken down into NA's.



And it's not like the developers and fluffers have Nobels hanging on their walls on the various fields.

True, but there's probably quite a lot of us with degrees in various subjects, maybe even a few doctorates out there. ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-08-2008, 08:16
All necron females are lords, once a month they go on a rampage through the galaxy dragging along their male warriors. Sound familiar, the shuffling along of feet and the sullen gaze, only perking up when someone offends their lord and master with a "hang on a minute mate...watch your mouth"....sounds like being dragged to the shops/night out by the lady.

Hee hee.


On Vespids: The Vespid squad leader (miniature) is female. Female Vespids are indeed larger than males and constitute the ruling caste.

Fitting, since they're based on insects and stuff.


Personally, I'd have a bounce on a howling banshee, but the ensuing headache from the screaming would eventually annoy me.

Wear the right headgear and it might just sound like regular noise... not too bad haha.


"gah, it kicked me! why, why does this hurt so much? what's the point of these if all they do is bring weakness?!"

Hahahahaha!


Better eat Eldar flesh then.

And even more hahahahahahahahahaha!


I agree that sex should never be taken into account for anything. Judge people on their individual merits. Women can be stronger than men, men can be more social than women.

True. I'll admit that I have some residual sexist/racist/etc. impulses from my upbringing and socialization, but the be-all and end-all of it is that I don't let it affect how I treat people. I assume from the start that someone is equal to me. They generally disappoint, but it's a better starting point than assuming I'm above them and getting proven wrong.


The truth is that most of the differences we as humans observe between our sexes are social and have been socialy constructed.

I think there's some truth to that, along with a lot of other biases and things I like to complain about.


I dare you, say something positive about the nazi's (nobody has only bad sides) in public and all hell will break loose.
(please don't bring up Godwin's law, it's very annoying when people do that)

I can do that, but unfortunately I'm not sure Their Modships would feel so egalitarian.


Yes, men think sex all the time. An officer in the army said "Men think about sex every 3 seconds. 1-2-sex, 1-2-sex, 1-2-sex..."

Heheh... so true.


In an insane world, one has to be crazy to get along.

In a land of darkness, a blind man is the best guide. In an age of insanity, look to the madman to lead the way, right?


I thought that the topic was female Xenos in the 40k universe. :rolleyes:

Way I understand it, everyone felt the need to establish what they thought of human women before they could explore the fairer (or not) sex of other species from other planets. Then it spiralled out of control.


But if you want to be a real ladies man, here's a surefire way to do it: Be an *******. You don't have to be good looking, you don't have to be rich or well talented in anything, you don't even have to dress well or anything. Just have 100% confidence in what you think is the truth and let everyone know it. Act like everything you do is interesting and everything should know everything about them. Put down people before the women and always stick your nose into other people's busines. Naturally try to play it in a joking and frienly manner.

You can have bad hygine, dress in old rags and shoes that you've worn for years and your relative knowledge being summed between NES and Warhammer, and still not only get chicks, but actually have them call you. And not some desperate ugly whales, but really hot chicks.

Interesting advice. And, at least in my little social sphere, quite true. Being a nice guy sure as hell doesn't get you anywhere.


That is a true as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. No Guy here or in the world thinks like that. When in the middle of a warhammer game we are not thinking about that, when watching sports we are not thinking about that.

Maybe I'm just severely in need of a good boink, but you are wrong in my view.


WRONG!WRONG!WRONG! (A la AA)

And that's where you lost me. I read your post, but your... vehemence is rather offsetting.


Well, that's up for debate. Daemon can have permanent damage done to them, like the wingless bloodthirster

I think that is because the wingless Bloodthirster had his wings ripped off by his god (IIRC). Not quite the same as damage in the physical realm. If you chop me with an energy sword in Halo, you damage my ego. If you find some way to make an energy sword in real life (please tell me how, I want one almost as much as I want to satisfy the primal drive mentioned above) and chop me in half with it... I die. Same with Daemons- the Warp is their 'real world' and reality is their 'video game.'


I only use caps when I'm angry. It has nothing to do with me trying to be cool. If I was trying to be cool, I would not use all caps!

Well, control your emotions and how they affect your posting and you won't get flippant responses designed solely to insult you.

Adra
09-08-2008, 22:37
I always loved that part of Brothers of the Snake with the woman on the planet who has made her way higher than any woman before her...and goes even further. See, even in 40k social change can happen.

inq.serge
10-08-2008, 14:49
OK, MrBigMr, lets call them Orkoid, since it's the best name so far.

MrBigMr
10-08-2008, 16:04
That's what Xenology states all Orks (genus Orkus) to be. And I have the image that I've seen the same classification stated somewhere else. Besides, Xenology also talks about 'animal' and 'fungus' bits, so depending on how well you take BL productions into heart, it's official and as such calling Orkoids a mixture of animal and fungus is fluffy if not anything else. When a laser bolt knocks a man off his feet and puts a sizable dent into his armour, it does and no matter what real world lasers do, the 40K version trump in a 40K setting.

Glabro
11-08-2008, 00:35
Orks. They have non(e). Sucks to be an Ork.



No it doesn't! Show me an ork that's unhappy and I'll show you twenty billion sad humans for each one. Most orks are either fighting and having fun or dead.

MrBigMr
11-08-2008, 00:50
No it doesn't! Show me an ork that's unhappy and I'll show you twenty billion sad humans for each one. Most orks are either fighting and having fun or dead.
Only truly happy people are children and idiots.

Adra
11-08-2008, 01:23
Only truly happy people are children and idiots.

People maybe. Orks are just happy being orks. Kinda cute in a way.

Joe Kutz
11-08-2008, 08:25
From a strictly pragmatic approach to things, you will probably find that females in the Empire are not encouraged to serve in combat positions for the purpose they serve as resources. Call it sexist if you want, but it is also a realistic assessment of the situation.

One male can 'service' dozens of females. The male doesn't even need to be present to do so. However, without a significant investment in medical facilities (even in the future where they could potentially grow new people in vats) - you need females to keep human kind alive.

Since most planets have tithes of troops that they must provide to the guard, psykers hauled off to feed the dead guy, factories to man and all the other things which use up people...for the Empire, the most valuable commodity is man power (forget if that is from Codex Titanicus or one of the Imperial Armor books...).

If a world were to offer up an equal number of woman in each tithe as men, they could likely stagnate in population or even start to decline. Both are bad in an environment where there is "Only War."

PC and equality be damned - we need more bodies to man the forges and hold the line. The Imperium probably consider females like any other resource. If a female can provide 5-10 bodies for the IG or be killed on the front lines, which is better for the Empire? If however that female is able to be of more use in a different aspect (as a psyker or specialized military unit) - I doubt they will care whether she pees standing up or sitting down. They just won't be as likely to use them as a standard grunt since their value is higher else where.

Granted this same concept applies to any race that uses sexual reproduction. While the Eldar's highly advanced culture lends itself better towards concepts of equality between sexes - there is still the instinct or even rational thought of protecting females as they hold the key to the survival of the race.

Of the reproducing races of prominence in 40K, the only one which wouldn't care much would be the Orks...and that is simply because they don't use sexual reproduction to continue on as a species.

Tyranids seem to have a breeding cycle that is similar to that of orks as well. The Forgeworld book - The Anphelion Project - covers the Tyranid Brood nest. These are created by spores during the initial bombardment, and can create any number of different Tyranids as fully mature creatures. While it doesn't get into specifics as to whether or not each spore will only produce a specific type of Tyranid (like an egg) or if the creature grown is triggered by some other event (chemical signatures which tell it to grow carnifex if the battle is still waging...or something like rippers if the battle is mostly over).

Sai-Lauren
11-08-2008, 09:18
All true, but there are many reasons why you would recruit women for general service, rather than for specific purposes.

1) Population control - a hive world for instance could control its' population by shipping women off world, thus decreasing the birth rate for the next couple of years, and preventing overpopulation, and would be much more effective than shipping nearly all the men off world.

2) Environmental factors - a world with an imbalance towards more girls than boys being born would need redressing, but if the world is mainly agricultural, or has other limits on the maximum population you want there, then it may well be prudent to recruit women rather than men, so long as you leave enough there for the next generation.

3) Infertility - a woman who is unable to bear children could be recruited without any issues, and there could be the promise of fertility treatments being made available to a female trooper on demobilisation. There's also the possibility (as I postulated earlier) that some worlds (Kreig?) may extract at least one of a woman's ovaries when they reach maturity for use in ex utero childbirth, rendering the woman effectively infertile.
Some worlds may also use surrogacy, particularly coupled with in vitro fertilisation methods.

But it could well be that when a male-only guard regiment is founded, a number of call up papers are also sent to women on the planet for auxiliary roles within the Munitorium, and one of the medical checks looks for infertility, if they can't have children, they're taken for service somewhere (QM's, Medical corps for nurses/orderlies, Comms and/or Cryptography, or HQ general staff - think WReNs or WAF, or possibly WW2's land girls), or if they're of very good gene stock, sent to a new colony world.

4) Motherhood - much like the Squats could only serve in their armies once they'd had two children, it's entirely possible that some worlds only send people to guard regiments once they've had at least one child and preferably two, making children part of the cadets duties (which could also lead to more women than men in officer positions, as whist they're pregnant they may not be able to perform things like PT and drill as well, but they can still sit and study strategy and tactics), thereby providing for the next generation, and also allowing for the majority of the population to serve - I'm thinking military worlds like Cadia, and possibly also the more devout worlds.

5) Extremis - you've got no choice. You need several million warm bodies with hands that can hold a gun right now.

madd0ct0r
11-08-2008, 12:55
Indeed. Nobody was suggesting the IG has a 50-50 gender split. But it seems to be fairly common in the fluff, if not the model lines.

MrBigMr
11-08-2008, 14:36
Remember than in the Starship Troopers movie women that serve are far more likely to get a license for kids. You don't want any ol' kids, you want hard as nails, born from cast iron bitches monster kids. Lets weed out the crap from the genepool and may only the fittest survive.

Sai-Lauren
11-08-2008, 16:02
Remember than in the Starship Troopers movie women that serve are far more likely to get a license for kids. You don't want any ol' kids, you want hard as nails, born from cast iron bitches monster kids. Lets weed out the crap from the genepool and may only the fittest survive.

I did think of that, but presumably any kind of service in the Starship Troopers universe gives them Citizenship - whether it's military (which includes both frontline and rear-echelon roles) or civil service, and thereby a better chance of getting a child license. So I would say it's more to do with the indoctrination and propaganda the children of Citizens would get as they're growing up (and then would likely have a higher chance of entering service themselves, as well as not being a threat as regards sedition etc) than better genestock.

Admittedly, it's still a possibility for the 40k universe, especially for feral worlds where the population do get repatriated after demobilisation to try and civilise them. :D

MrBigMr
11-08-2008, 16:09
Oh, the last bit was nothing to do with the SST, just a statement. Like "only Spartan women give birth to Spartan men."

The Tau do genetic study to see who fit together the best and mate them. Basicly you get a letter telling you to report to the bedroom ("Ma'am, yes, ma'am!").

Adra
11-08-2008, 16:33
Well that could just be how Tau have always done it. Love or lust may not be something Tau experiance, they just sent out a good genetic match or maybe that is decided by a family unit. The advanced system the modern Tau use could be an extention of this.

MrBigMr
11-08-2008, 16:50
Fire Warriors seems to differ. It does give the impression that the Tau have fluffy feelings, and even carnal desires regarding each other to some extent. But they accept the style of their life just like we have monogamous relationships where as nature would pull us to spread our seed as wide as possible.

Goq Gar
11-08-2008, 17:21
Indeed. Then again, you can see the opinion I hold for tau in my sig, so lets move on to orks!

Orks are part plant. Plants reproduce through male/female means. Ergo, somewhere along the line, the part of them thats a plant involves a female.

Orks release spores... and if I remember my biology class right, that makes them walking stamen, ergo males. So... when those spores grow in the ground... that makes the planet the female.

By that logic, when orks invade, they literally screw your planet over.

I challenge you to find a flaw in my logic!

Joe Kutz
11-08-2008, 17:42
I think you should check your biology books again. ;)

Spores are not related to stamen or sexual reproduction - that would be pollen. They have fungal traits, which do not use male/female. A spore can be viewed more like a seed than anything which would be part of the plant's fertilization cycle.

Adra
11-08-2008, 17:44
Well fungus that reproduces using spores are often asexual so you cant really say they have both male and female sexes, its more like they have no sex. No cross fertalisation occures, its all internalised. Fertalisation happens inside the ork and then the spores are released. This would mean that a single ork could produce many ork offspring without the need for any other orks. This seems most likely for the orks. That said most fungi can also reproduce between individual plants with their spores, indeed male and female plants are sometimes present in specific species, however this just does not seem super soldier enough for the orks.

inq.serge
12-08-2008, 09:19
I think that Firewarrior made it "intentionally" so that those foul abominations would feel more human.

Tau feel another kind of love, a love without carnal desires, a love not between two genders, but between a group (I.E: A Firewarrior squad.). These groups usually "Marry" each other (Called the "Bonding Ritual").

And Goq; Tau are not Commies. I will not explain why here, since I don't want to take this to P&R, and I hope no-one else will take it to P&R. And I hope No-one will talk more about that in this post. (I may explain through other mediums if needed.)

madd0ct0r
12-08-2008, 09:56
I've always thought of Tau as being herd animals. (or at least, evolved from herd animals).

Like cattle, or less insultingly, elephants, the sexes have a specific period when they are fertile. The females come into heat, the males come into mhust.

Since they seem to be quite sensitive to pheremones (who isn't?) it's quite likely that one Tau being on heat could trigger the same in members of the opposite sex. Possibly not, otherwise the entire herd would be coming into heat at once.

Humans can breed at any time, but the most births are autumn. One hypothesis is that the mother needs the summer to lay down the energy reserves to breastfeed (actually more demanding than pregnancy). Babies generate quite a lot of heat, and once we'd got the hang of skinning furs keeping a baby warm overwinter is quite easy.

Since we don't know wether Tau do anything along these lines (mammaries would be a clue, but may only become significant during pregnancy - hell who says they even get pregnant? Eggs, marsupial Tau, spawning pools, anything is possible, if not probable).

I'm seem to remember that Tau evolved from plain dwelling herd creatures. This suggests either live birth with the baby able to walk almost at once (like buffalo) or Marsupial style where the baby is carried for a while.
Could be ******** though, they may have followed long migration roots but 'nested' while the young were raised each summer. thoughts?

MrBigMr
12-08-2008, 11:35
I think that Firewarrior made it "intentionally" so that those foul abominations would feel more human.
Right, because alien love has to be sick and twisted, not pure like human love.


Tau feel another kind of love, a love without carnal desires, a love not between two genders, but between a group (I.E: A Firewarrior squad.). These groups usually "Marry" each other (Called the "Bonding Ritual").
In Fire Warrior a member of the Fire caste looked at a member of another caste and of opposite sex, and felt strong desires to tap that ass. Even envied the person that would eventually get to do that through the breeding program.

Drasanil
13-08-2008, 04:43
Right, because alien love has to be sick and twisted, not pure like human love.

Gold star for listening to your local Cardinal;)

inq.serge
13-08-2008, 10:49
Alien love can be like human love. Who knows?
Tau love is however not like human love. That, we know.

horizon
13-08-2008, 11:04
I think this 40k universe needs more romance.

Poseidal
13-08-2008, 11:38
I think this 40k universe needs more romance.

But can love bloom on the battlefield?

horizon
13-08-2008, 11:51
Like there is a battle everywhere. There are millions of worlds without war. Human or non-human.

Elanthanis
13-08-2008, 12:21
In Maslow's hierarchy of needs, there are bigger concerns in the 41st millenium that need your attention first. Like breathing and survival. Self actualization and love are only for Spyres in the Imperium.

Poseidal
13-08-2008, 12:22
Like there is a battle everywhere. There are millions of worlds without war. Human or non-human.

It looks like you don't know the reference.

Basically, it was a very well drawn comic / fanfic based on the 'sniper wolf' phrase in MGS when someone says 'can love bloom on the battlefield?'.

It involved Farseer Taldeer and a Vindicare Assassin... later it spawned quite a bit of a following.

I think it originated on 'that board' though I found out about if from deviantart.

MrBigMr
13-08-2008, 13:44
Alien love can be like human love.
Rama-Kandra: No, it [love] is but a word. What matters is the connection the word implies.
(I've always liked that quote for some reason)


Tau love is however not like human love.
Tau love you long time.


Basically, it was a very well drawn comic / fanfic based on the 'sniper wolf' phrase in MGS when someone says 'can love bloom on the battlefield?'.
It was Otacon that asked Snake "Can love bloom on the battlefield?"


I think this 40k universe needs more romance.
Slayers of Sorrow (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124738) - Black Hole Gun (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136740) - Tears of Blood (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2618275)
It has it all.

Emperor's Grace
13-08-2008, 14:54
Humans can breed at any time, but the most births are autumn. One hypothesis is that the mother needs the summer to lay down the energy reserves to breastfeed (actually more demanding than pregnancy). Babies generate quite a lot of heat, and once we'd got the hang of skinning furs keeping a baby warm overwinter is quite easy.

Nah, It's the boredom in winter and holiday parties... :)

Demrush
13-08-2008, 16:30
Another women’s thread. I seriously don’t understand why people will go into so much detail in an attempt to explain why women in 40k are “repressed” or that 40k is patriarchal. The fact is, for over more than 5k years of human history, men have been the bread makers and warriors. Over this long span of years, I am pretty sure that if evolution had meant for women to fill in the same role as men, this would have occurred. See…if the humans of 40k’s terra are the same as us (supposing they are) and haven’t changed in millennia…then it is pure logic that the roles of women and men stay the same. Maybe a few differences due to more advanced technology and that’s it…

Also, did anyone ever notice that the emperor is a man? When he decided to create the primarchs and space marines, it only makes sense he went for men…I certainly would, even if I was the all knowing emperor of mankind. We all know men understand men better than they do women (and vice-versa).

Sildani
13-08-2008, 16:53
Tau love you long time.

Oh, thank you. I almost had pizza come out of my nose. Ow!

Now, MrBigMr, I think you were originally looking for physiological differences between males and females in alien races, right? I read the entire thread, and I kinda lost track of the point. Set it straight, please.

MrBigMr
13-08-2008, 20:40
Oh, thank you. I almost had pizza come out of my nose. Ow!
Imagine that as a diorama. Tau in a short skirt, tank top and a rice hat standing at a stree corner and talking to a Catachan vet.


Now, MrBigMr, I think you were originally looking for physiological differences between males and females in alien races, right? I read the entire thread, and I kinda lost track of the point. Set it straight, please.
Yes, physiology was my main concern. Secondary was if there are specific purposes of females in the society (like how Vespid females are the only ones able to enter the lower levels of their planet). Then someone mentioned the Imperium and all hell broke loose, even as I said there was no point in such. But some MFs are always trying to ice skate uphill.

I admit that I had a personal motive, like pretty much everytime (but not always) when I ask questions around the background section, but I figured that as I'm asking about one thing, might as well include the rest.

See, I was working on some Kroot conversions from the new daemonettes and they ended being far smaller and slimmer. Even had to trop down the heads to make them look up to par with the bodies. I have two choices, either mix them up and say the smaller ones are females, or make all from daemonette bodies and explain it with the fact that they're all from the same kindred and they've evolved like such due to their diet.

Pix:

Adra
14-08-2008, 09:12
Nice convertions. That said the way kroot breed with the Shaper picking interesting genetic material and using that to merge with kroot dna, so its possible that these kroot are just another example of that. Maybe as they are slim maybe say they are eldar geno based.

The other thing is that Kroot are avarian (sorta) and have many bird like functions. With that as a basis maybe bird biology would be a good place to look for fluff, in which case their is almost no difference between males and females externaly. Female birds are often bigger than the males so i think a mix geno idea is better than a male femal split.

Sai-Lauren
14-08-2008, 09:12
Then someone mentioned the Imperium and all hell broke loose, even as I said there was no point in such. But some MFs are always trying to ice skate uphill.

But as we ourselves are human, it surely makes better sense to work out how we would go, and then extrapolate from the societal differences already given for the other races.

Besides which, we're only really talking about the Eldar and the Tau (plus their allies) - which, TBH, I think got covered as much as it can be back around page 2 or so. ;)

Apologist
14-08-2008, 10:47
So to recap:
Orks
Physical:No identifiable gender differentiation – all orks have 'dangly bits and 'urty bits'; and reproduce by sporing.
Societal: All orks develop and function in nominally similar roles in their society, with subconscious development of specialists due to psychic activity (spec.)
Notes: Subspecies-based society – perhaps oppression of smaller subspecies?

Eldar
Physcial:
Demostrate gender differentiation that is analogous to humans – two genders; male and female. Physical differences are slight: eldar have no fat analogue (according to Xenology), so differences in body shape is limited to generative organs and presence of mammary analgoues in females.
Societal: Eldar treated roughly equally, regardless of gender.
Notes:

Tau
Physical: Gender differentiation shown by facial slit – straight in males, y-shaped (split occurring around brow-ridge area) in females. Other physical differences ill-catalogued. Rapid descent from desert-dwelling herbivores combined with caste-based society and restricted breeding hints at small amount of gender separation. (spec.)
Societal: Caste-based culture seems to employ genders indiscriminately; female Fire Caste warriors and Water Caste envoys have both been sighted in various levels of command.
Notes: Possibly the tau employ breeding programmes that limit parenting and encourage non-familial units – c.f. Talissera 'communion/marriage' ritual.

Vespid
Physical: Massive gender separation between numerous small, agile males and fewer, larger females. Possible third gender – neuter, intersex or infertile male drones (spec.)
Societal: Females are leaders and commanders of smaller, more numerous males.
Notes: Based on insect/hive species tropes seen in the past, and massive physical differences, it is likely that Vespids reproduce via specialist breeding males and females, and majority of the society do not breed.

Kroot
Physical: Minor physical differences between two genders – young are carried in broods and birthed through emission/regurgitation via the buccal cavity; thus no analogue to broader hips or specialist generative structures.
Societal: Kroot males and females held in equal respect. Rearing of young is split among the adults in the 'kindred' group.
Notes: Kroot communication relies to a large extent on complex secretion of odours, chemicals and pheromones through the skin. It appears that reproduction is a specialist secretion of genetic material from male palms to specialist structures on the back of the female.

Tyranids
Physical: Limited scope available for discussion – various interdependent organisms produce 'young' (c.f. spore-producing organisms such as field artillery biovores; Carnifex ripper broods), but all rely on Norn Queens (spec.) for true reproduction. Early Hive Tyrants believed to be 'male' analogues of Norn Queens; but rapid/forced evolution make this claim spurious or simply wrong.
Societal: Too diverse for space.
Notes:

inq.serge
14-08-2008, 11:04
Facial slit?

Ehmm,

That's their noses.

Otherwise, I have nothing to add, and this thread looks complete.

horizon
14-08-2008, 11:23
It looks like you don't know the reference.

Basically, it was a very well drawn comic / fanfic based on the 'sniper wolf' phrase in MGS when someone says 'can love bloom on the battlefield?'.

It involved Farseer Taldeer and a Vindicare Assassin... later it spawned quite a bit of a following.

I think it originated on 'that board' though I found out about if from deviantart.

Ah thanks. Lovely story, just read it.

MrBigMr
14-08-2008, 11:26
Actually, I remember some source saying that the Tau have their scent glands inside their mouths, like snakes. And a slit is a slit, no matter what it houses.


As for completion, there are various other races in the universe outside of those that can be played around with. We can talk about those as well. When one gets into a serious discussion, best to push it as far as possible.

Angelwing
14-08-2008, 11:33
Tyranids
Physical: Limited scope available for discussion – various interdependent organisms produce 'young' (c.f. spore-producing organisms such as field artillery biovores; Carnifex ripper broods), but all rely on Norn Queens (spec.) for true reproduction. Early Hive Tyrants believed to be 'male' analogues of Norn Queens; but rapid/forced evolution make this claim spurious or simply wrong.
Societal: Too diverse for space.
Notes:

From the 2nd ed book:


Hormagaunts are also unusual because they appear to reproduce independently of the Dominatrix. They lay hundreds of eggs just below the surface of a planet before their short lifespan is over, making Hormagaunt infestation a serious problem on planets raided by the tyranids.

MrBigMr
14-08-2008, 11:43
Not to forget Genestealers.

Duckdude
14-08-2008, 18:40
Not to forget Genestealers.

wich puts glades inside you body, without you knowing. then after a few generations your kids will be fullblood genestealers....but you will still love them...right?

Emperor's Grace
14-08-2008, 20:14
Also, did anyone ever notice that the emperor is a man? When he decided to create the primarchs and space marines, it only makes sense he went for men…I certainly would, even if I was the all knowing emperor of mankind. We all know men understand men better than they do women (and vice-versa).

Actually, men are simpler (less variables) biologically. If your going to experiment on folks, there's a good reason that men were the subjects historically.

HK-47
14-08-2008, 22:37
Apologist post is really well thought out, and it is pretty much correct. Angelwing's post about Hormagaunt and Genestealers breeding without Norn queens has brought up some questions that I hope everyone can help me out with. I was under the impression that only creatures that where vanguard organisms could reproduce normally, and then there is the old idea that when Nids loss contact with the hive mind they evolve to take up niches in the ecosystem they find themselves in, is that still true or has GW recanted these old pieces of fluff.

Logarithm Udgaur
14-08-2008, 22:56
Facial slit?

Ehmm,

That's their noses.

Otherwise, I have nothing to add, and this thread looks complete.

Is there a source for this? I always thought of it as their third eye, such as some reptiles have. Basically it allows them(reptiles) to see light/dark and in some, limited shape recognition.

Sai-Lauren
15-08-2008, 09:10
Apologist - nice work.

Angelwing - where's that fluff about Hormagaunts laying eggs from? It's certainly not something I recognise (and a bit too close to Ork spores for my liking).

Genestealers - their own reproduction is more like that of a Virus, rather than anything gender related. Although I suppose that as they pass their genes into another organism, they could technically be classed as male.



As for completion, there are various other races in the universe outside of those that can be played around with. We can talk about those as well. When one gets into a serious discussion, best to push it as far as possible.

What, races like the Hrud, Demiurge, Loxatl and so on?

There's so little information on them that anything we say is only guesswork.

Poseidal
15-08-2008, 09:15
Ah thanks. Lovely story, just read it.

It certainly adds texture to the world. And the art conveys a bleakness that increases the 'grimdarkness'. That bleakness is sometimes missing in the cluttered official art sometimes, which is usually presented as a huge battle.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 12:34
What, races like the Hrud, Demiurge, Loxatl and so on?

There's so little information on them that anything we say is only guesswork.
Seeing that majority of our knowledge on the Imperium is just wild stabbing in the dark on the most parts, I don't think it matters. And there's always the chance someone has come across some piece on some race.

Clockwork-Knight
15-08-2008, 13:00
No, the majority of our knowledge regarding the Imperium is based on facts given by Roge Trader, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and now 5th edition, and in some cases even the Black Library stuff and the Dark Heresy Games.

Apologist
15-08-2008, 13:12
I love this sort of speculation, so with the proviso that this is extremely loose interpretation of very scarce background material, I'll get started on minor Xeno races.

Hrud
Physical:
Demonstrate gender differentiation similar to humans, with female and male genders. The possible existence of additional genders (viz 'nanny' drones, asexual/intersex) is not out of the question, but strongly selected against by nature of society.
Gender dimorphism is assumed to be low and restricted to presence or absence of eggsac/depository gentitals. Limited information from Naval reports etc. implies that there is no immediate visual difference between genders.
Eggsac appears to be descendable, and the opening sphincter looks relatively infelxible; implying that external birthing is likely at early stage of development, and young born small.
Large size of eggs in female eggsac hints at young birthed in broods with relatively high mortality rate. Deposition of fertilised eggs would allow maximum infiltration of extant alien or Imperial structures due to low size/detectability of eggs. However, live birth or marsupial 'pouch' analogue more likely due to social structure: sessile eggs cannot transfer knowledge, and society is supportive.
If the 'marsupial' theory is proven correct, it seems plausible that a number of hrud young embed themselves on nearby adults, protected from environmental conditions by the adult's cloak technology/ability. They would also benefit from not having to seek food themselves, and would be protected from low temperatures, accidents and contusions by multiple layers of outer skin.

Societal:
Nomadic society and possible live birth implies numerous young are both adaptable and survivable. Instinctual responses likely to be extremely well-developed. Hrud young are likely to be non-competitive and demonstrate high levels of sophisticated co-operation. Ancestor worship and oral tradition implies respect for elders and gerontocracy, and essentially conservative society.
Low 'blood' ties and high tribal ties, coupled with group rearing is implied by large size of brood. The temporary and nomadic habits of the hrud imply that young feel more kinship to the group than their genetic parents, lending credence to the idea that they have marsupial-analogue structures.

Notes:
Elusive nature of hrud combined with possible psychic shrouding ability/esoteric cloaking technology makes study difficult. This report is highly speculative.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 13:15
No, the majority of our knowledge regarding the Imperium is based on facts given by Roge Trader, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and now 5th edition, and in some cases even the Black Library stuff and the Dark Heresy Games.
So, what is the life like to an average Imperial woman? What type of prospects are there for her in the field of serving the Emperor (apart from the Sisters)? How large numbers are there in the armed forces? Do men treat them differently? Do their superiors look at them as women or as the same crap as everything else? Are there fields woman can't take up? How does the Imperium treat homosexuality?

So far don't remember coming across a definitive answer to any of them, and the answers I have received from various sources, have been contradictory at best.

Apologist
15-08-2008, 13:51
Barghesi
Physical:
Barghesi show marked gender dimorphism between the less numerous, short-limbed and genetically unstable males and the much larger and more common females. A combination of T chromosomes and L chromosomes results in nearly eighty-four per cent of natural births containing at least one T chromosome, resulting in a fertile female.
Only triple, quadruple or quintuple L chromosomes will result in a viable male, though combinations of high incidence of L and low T can result in mentally and physically retarded intersex individuals, who are invariably infertile owing to an absence of generative organs. These individuals are highly selected against, and survive only in captivity.
Both genders sport large and colourful external generative organs, which in all cases seem to have developed a series of physical and chemical baffles intended to reduce the likelihood of successful coupling and to protect the few vulnerable areas of the barghesi such as eyes and olofactory organs.
Unusually, barghesi females' genitals develop depository structures at around fifteen standard years, and these form a third gender capable of producing clones by self-breeding, or of fertilisting other females.
Barghesi are birthed almost immediately on coupling and emerge as part of the excretory system. Barghesi waste is a plasticy foam containing solid elements, and this provides a warm and insulated environment for the developing foetus until such a time as it emerges (generally five to thirteen standard days after fertilisation).

Societal:
Barghesi of all genders are always receptive and extremely promiscuous, implying the Barghesi homeworld is extremely high in edible fauna and other supplies and materiel. Barghesi troops are uniformly of one gender and nomadic, with adult individuals of the opposite gender (and male-females) being eliminated on detection, or driven from the troop.
Coupling is short, violent and frequently results in injury or damage to one or both of the participants. It is also highly opportunistic, with barghesi breeding whenever troops meet.
The troops are massively competitive and the death and injury rate is high. Owing to troop migration, the emerging young are rarely near any of their own kind, and develop in isolation until found by a troop of the same gender. Membership of a troop is entirely dependent on defeating (though not necessarily killing) an extant member; ritual humiliation and scarification appears to be extremely important to the hyper-violent barghesi's culture.
Young found by members of the opposite gender are killed unless they can escape; when found by individuals, a new troop is formed.

Notes:
Five chromosomes dictate the Barghesi gender owing to genetic instability in the males: it is assumed that the emergence of the less physically able males is a relatively recent historical occurrence (possibly as a result of spontaneous mutation caused by solar radiation), and the species evolved as a purely female species, with depository organisms developing in older male-females.
It is likely that the emergence of the third, fully male, gender destabilised barghesi culture, explaining their abysmally high levels of violence, which are otherwise hard to explain emerging on planets with such natural abundance of food and shelter.

Apologist
15-08-2008, 14:11
Dracolith
Physical:
The crystalline dracolith manifest a staggering thirteen genders; which Imperial scholars have documented as: male, supermale and late prime male(collectively grouped as 'males'); female, superfemale, androfemale, late prime female and endofemale (grouped as 'female'); and submale, male inferior, drone and true carrier (collectively grouped as 'carriers')
The space available prohibits an exhaustive study, but an abstract can be made. 'Males' and 'females' are able to produce a viable gamete by sloughing generative areas of their physique together. This gamete remains inert until immersed in a carrier, who bears the developing young.
Visual gender differentiation is virtually nil; and the notoriously unforthcoming dracolith are unwilling or unable to explain how they identify different genders amongst themselves. Imperial biolo-logi and chaemists have advanced the tentative theory that minute differences in crystal harmonics help identify one dracolith gender to another.

Societal:
The dracolith are extremely religious, and all aspects of their society are governed by hierarchs and priests. Carriers are almost exclusively related in some way to the Church of Dracolith, and males and females of all kinds hold a subservient role.

Notes:

Eckshale
15-08-2008, 14:31
superfemale



Thats all i heard... and i love it!
So super female i like twice as much female as a normal female or something?
How does that work? :o

Apologist
15-08-2008, 14:50
'Supermale' and 'superfemale' are real world medical terms that denote a chromosomal anomaly with an additional Y or X chromosome (so a supermale has two or more Y chromosomes, while a superfemale has three or more Xs).

It's a bit of a misnomer, as 'supermales' and 'superfemales' can (though not always) suffer from numerous problems such as increased aggression and terrible acne in supermales; and speech impediments and occasionally mental retardation in superfemales. This duplication of chromosomes can extend beyond an additional one – XXXXX syndrome (also called pentasomy X) is an extreme example, where five X chromosomes are present, and this causes much more pronounced problems.

But this is rather by-the-by – I threw the terms in to give a nice authentic feel to the analysis. I'd imagine in 40k terms, 'superfemale' might indicate a particularly robust form of dracolith rather than an obscure chromosomal anomaly! :)

I'm trying to keep these minor races fairly vague, so I'm not treading on any toes, while still (hopefully) providing some inspiration or entertainment to some readers. As far as I'm aware, the 'Church of Dracolith' and 'the cystalline dracolith' are the only references to this species ever mentioned; and the 'barghesi' are merely 'hyper-violent' and 'inhabiting the Grendl stars'. With the limited information, I'm trying to make up something that is interesting and doesn't contradict any established background – but most importantly, sounds cool! :p

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 14:55
It's a bit of a misnomer, as 'supermales' and 'superfemales' can (though not always) suffer from numerous problems such as / speech impediments and occasionally mental retardation in superfemales.
I fail to see how that is somehow a con.

Apologist
15-08-2008, 15:00
I fail to see how that is somehow a con.

Well, general use of 'super' implies 'better than' or 'beyond'. Without wanting to get into semantics (or off-topic), I'd argue that having characteristics that hold you back socially would make you less 'super'.

That said, I've no particular medical knowledge or experience with anyone who has either condition – and this is the Internet, where arguments happen over a slight misuse of tone – so apologies in advance if I've caused any upset to anyone: I'm just having fun making up stories about space aliens! :)

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 15:27
*facepalm*
Note to self: If you ain't gonna use smilies, don't do jokes.


Lets recap:
A woman.
A woman who doesn't speak nor think much.

Dig deep into that chauvinistic Y-chromosome for some non-PC humor. Now how super is that? All it really needs is the added bodily mutation of enlarged mammary glands.

Apologist
15-08-2008, 16:13
[QUOTE=MrBigMr;2868586]*facepalm*
Note to self: If you ain't gonna use smilies, don't do jokes.[/
QUOTE]

No worries - looks like my humour gland has taken a shot: I'll send out for a replacment... Damn biologis!

Anyone think of any more xeno species? Aside from demiurg and jokaero (neither of which I fancy tackling), I'm struggling a little for sentient species. (Although ptera-squirrels might be fun!)

Doctor Thunder
15-08-2008, 18:26
Also, did anyone ever notice that the emperor is a man? When he decided to create the primarchs and space marines, it only makes sense he went for men…I certainly would, even if I was the all knowing emperor of mankind. We all know men understand men better than they do women (and vice-versa).
You don't have any kids, do you?

Daughters are almost always more obedient, more mature, and more loyal then sons are. If the Emperor had made more then just two Female Primarchs, maybe the loyalists wouldn't have been so outnumbered during the Horus Heresy, and the strength of the traitor legions would only be a fraction of what it is.

madd0ct0r
15-08-2008, 18:42
Thanks to Apologist - really well done.

There's the orgional Necrontyr, the Enslavers, Void-whales (hey, they might be sentient), different Tau castes and of course, the life cycle of Petra-Squirrells.

Grimbad
15-08-2008, 18:47
The crystalline dracolith manifest a staggering thirteen genders...

Have you by any chance been reading Slaughterhouse V?
I just read it and this reminds me of the aliens' interpretation of human gender.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 20:19
Daughters are almost always more obedient, more mature, and more loyal then sons are. If the Emperor had made more then just two Female Primarchs, maybe the loyalists wouldn't have been so outnumbered during the Horus Heresy, and the strength of the traitor legions would only be a fraction of what it is.
I remember some old thing about daughters take up more traits from their father and sons from their mothers. So a father-daughter relationship is better and stronger than a father-son relationship. Or so I've heard. Don't have kids. At least none I know of.


There's the orgional Necrontyr
I've actually worked on theories of my own. I could dig up some of the older threads for my old views, but... I'm too lazy. I'll just put some of the main points.

Physiology. I think Necrons are a design of Necrontyrs (or is someone gonna tell me the plural of Necrontyr is Necrontyr?) themselves. So if you were to put flesh over the skeletal bodies, you would get their features. Large chest, which would suggest a thin atmosphere on their homeworld. Or maybe they have an enlarged liver analogue to compensate for toxins in the armosphere, etc. Both are possible, since the Nightbringer feeding on their homestar would make it unstable and cause plenty of problems down on the planet.

I understand it that cancer and tumors are pretty much a genetic quality to them, and their lives are short lived because of this and most likely environmental factors as well (the thin atmosphere/possible toxins thingy) on top of solar storms and all. A Thin armosphere would also mean the planet has a lighter gravity (which would also count for their long, slim features) and a thinner magnetic field, which would make cosmic radiation and solar winds even deadlier.

Their skin is likely to be thick to withstand radiation well. Maybe dull in colout, like grey. Possibly eyes able to withstand bright light. If anyone has seen Heavy Metal 2000, I've always imagined the Necrontyr to look like Odin from the movie. Robed, grey skin, dark eyes, long limbs and fingers.

Only thing I on the Necrons that I doubt is a part of the Necrontyr physiology, are the shoulder blades. They look more like some sort of a ceremonial armour or something. I can't imagine them to work well under the skin and flesh.

Society. Death must have been a constantly around them. Longevity must have been an obsession of the rich and powerful. They probably worshiped gods or the elderly, but I'm sure that after few millenia of it without any result, science must have taken over. Or maybe they've never felt the urge to worship something greater, since they're not psychic and as such wouldn't sense the warp and have visions and such. But the C'Tan are stargods, so I'm leaning more towards them believing into something outside of their mortal coils.

With short lived lives, people would probably had a great need to remain in the memory of people, so doing great tombs and/or having large families might have been a goal of many, especially those with power and money. Men would probably had many wives to give them largest possible amount of healthy children to follow them and continue their legacy.

That's about what I think about the subject.


the Enslavers
GW site has some nice info under Creature Feature.

madd0ct0r
15-08-2008, 22:36
Ah yes. But the role of women in the Necrontyr civilisation...
That one's going to bug you.

MrBigMr
15-08-2008, 23:22
Well, knowing GW, they've gone the easy way and just ripped ancient Egypt (come on, you're telling me the Necrons aren't the Tomb Kings in space?) So that's probably a good base to start and then maybe some South American Indians mixed into it. The rest is just speculation really.

Adra
16-08-2008, 00:09
we dont even know what the role of males was in Necrontyr civilisation...if they even had males....or anything for that matter. Nothing is given away. they could have been walking sponge fish shaped like kites for all we know....

MrBigMr
16-08-2008, 00:47
A race of nothing but women...?

Reminds me of a comic I once saw. A guy gets beamed from his bed onto a ship where women tell him that their planet is on the verge of annihilation as all their men have died and they need males from other planets. After trying to turn on the guy without any effect, the captain gets frustrated and beams the guy back. "Another planet of impotent losers." The guy sits up on his bed and shakes his head. Another guy in the bed turns around to face him. "What's the matter, sweety?"


But back to 40K. So far pretty much every species, at least every humanoid species, that we've come across in the background, has had men and women. So it's not that far fetched to assume the Necrontyr swung that way as well. Too bad the Necrontyr didn't have a penis bone like so many animals have. That would have helped to identify the males and females. Men would be the ones with a spike between their legs.

As for the sponge fish kiten thingy. Well, if I'm correct, it was the Necrontyr themselves that made the original Necron designs (the Immortals, their Space Marines). Humans make humanoid robots, create something in their own image. So why couldn't have the Necrontyr use the same deal. Besides, asking for a Necrontyr to house a body shaped after their arch enemy/enemy's creation would probably be like putting an eldar into a Leman Russ because it's so much better than a Wave Serpent.

Not to forget that Necrons not driven by AIs, but by their own consciouss minds (as pointed in the Necron codex as a reason why they're Ld. 10 and not Fearless). So image you're suddenly stuck into the body of a mechanical centipede and you're forced to drive it like a centipede would manipulate its own body. Our bodies are not really qualified in driving other bodies besides our own. So surely the Necrontyr would have done mechanical bodies that they could operate.

Logarithm Udgaur
16-08-2008, 03:46
Genestealers - their own reproduction is more like that of a Virus, rather than anything gender related. Although I suppose that as they pass their genes into another organism, they could technically be classed as male.

You are aware that females also pass their genes along to there young, right?

@Apologist
I would love to hear your take on the Loxatl.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Loxatl
The info here is pretty much all that is know about them, aside from a picture of a monitor lizard (reptile:wtf:) with a gun strapped to it, that is supposed to be a Loxatl.

madd0ct0r
16-08-2008, 15:37
Annoyyingly, we don't yet have a strong theory as to why the sexe evolved as they did, merely a good hypothesis.

Basically, sexual reproduction allows much benefical genes to spread through a population much faster. Why only two sexes? Possibly an inherent bias due to the shape of a DNA strand, possibly it's easier to breed if you only need two of the right sex present (or at least, the speed of gene dessimation is not sufficently increased by having extra sexes to make the extra difficulty of getting everyone together to be worth it).

If it's the former (and the Necrontyr didn't have a double helix DNA - extremely possible) then it could be anything.
If it's the latter, you may be able to argue for convergent evolution to two sexes.
Assuming of course that the C'tan dosen't cock things up and also politley ignoring the genetics of the hive insects on Earth.

MrBigMr
16-08-2008, 16:00
In the world of Valerian and Laureline, there's one species that has 3 sexes and they always move in groups of 3. There was even an illustration of the various things presented in the comics and it explained how the whole thing worked, but I don't remember much of it anymore.

Poseidal
16-08-2008, 16:15
Annoyyingly, we don't yet have a strong theory as to why the sexe evolved as they did, merely a good hypothesis.
I thought it was because the most effective way of combining two genes was with one large stationary carrier combined with a small, fast moving one?

Adra
16-08-2008, 19:08
As for the sponge fish kiten thingy. Well, if I'm correct, it was the Necrontyr themselves that made the original Necron designs (the Immortals, their Space Marines). Humans make humanoid robots, create something in their own image. So why couldn't have the Necrontyr use the same deal. Besides, asking for a Necrontyr to house a body shaped after their arch enemy/enemy's creation would probably be like putting an eldar into a Leman Russ because it's so much better than a Wave Serpent.

Interesting. Lets explore that a moment. Humanoid i'll agree with. two arms two legs, head...that sort of deal...but nothing says that the Necrontyr looked anthing close to their shells. Lets look at some examples. Tau make their drons to fit the purpose and they look nothing like a tau, now a drone is an AI and funtion is very important over form so maybe not a good example. What about Wraith constructs? Not really robots but they house eldar souls and they look nothing like an eldar. Maybe they fit some eldar ideal of a warrior form or maybe they are beautiful to honour the dead.

My point is that the Necrontyr where alien so we have no idea what reason they picked the Necron look. They may have been small and weak so they picked bodies that where closer to their ideals of beauty than they themselves forfiulled.

Also, the Nightbringer implants the image of death on the minds of all races. i dont think its by random chance that the necrons look like that image in honour of their lord.

djinn8
16-08-2008, 20:23
I think the only secist issue within the Imperium comes from Ogryns. With there exagerated physical structure the difference between male and female strengths would be even greater. Question is, does this mean that the women Ogryn stay at home and make all the decisions?

MrBigMr
16-08-2008, 22:53
What about Wraith constructs?
That's right, what about the Wraith constructs? Drones I can understand, as they're merely aides. Like servo skulls. Tau are smart enough not to make their AIs autonomous. If you make a machine that doesn't need you, how long will it take for it to realise that fact for itself? Besides, you do realise that the Tau wear large round hats with "antennas" on top of them. So the Imperium has hovering skulls, some armed, some mere aides, the Tau have hovering hats, some armed, some mere aides.

But to the Wraith units. Why are Wraiths humanoid (legs, arms, head, torso)? Why not hovering orbs that can shoot lasers 360 without even trying? Or spiders? Or something more superior? Why humanoid? Think about that.


Also, the Nightbringer implants the image of death on the minds of all races. i dont think its by random chance that the necrons look like that image in honour of their lord.
Necrons could have looked like fluffy bunnies and after the Nightbrigner implanted that image, everyone would dread them with the same fright as they do the current Necrons. So in a matter of fact, it could be one of those old tales that end with "and that is how blaa blaa blaa came to be." Think about that.

If you've ever played Grim Fandango, in the land of the dead, the flowers are a symbol of death. Their guns even shoot bullets that seed the bones and sprout flowers from the, effectively killing the person. And a dreaded murderer, "The Florists" has been developing bullets that turn bone into baby tears. The sick bastard.

downundercadet07
16-08-2008, 23:41
What is the deal with the Imperial Navy? I think the guard is gender divided, but how about the Navy? Is it co-ed, or are their single gender warships, or just no women or what? I wonder if there is maternity leave and stuff in the Imperial forces, or if there is just enforced celibacy (at least mixed gender celibacy), or forced abortions or rations that make you infertile while eating them.

Lady Bastet
17-08-2008, 00:46
I have no idea why people still cling to “greater upper body strength” as a significant advantage for men in the 41st Millennia.

Your average (and relatively common) Ork or Kroot quite frankly laughs at the strength of the strongest man. To say nothing of the raw power possessed by a Space Marine or a Necron Warrior.

downundercadet07
17-08-2008, 01:33
Kroot yes, Ork no. Orks are all big and tough and bulky, but not really much stronger than humans. The boys anyway, the older and nastier they get, ok that gets different, but regular boys are only the strength of a guardsmen. I agree with your overall point though.

Drasanil
17-08-2008, 01:41
I have no idea why people still cling to “greater upper body strength” as a significant advantage for men in the 41st Millennia.

Your average (and relatively common) Ork or Kroot quite frankly laughs at the strength of the strongest man. To say nothing of the raw power possessed by a Space Marine or a Necron Warrior.

Why lower physical standards for your troops in the 41st milenium simply because some filthy xenos have infernal chaos spawned strength?

Non-conscript guards are supposed to be the best of a planet's PDF (under normal circumstances), and would have rather stringent physical fitness standards for strength and endurance. Meaning that in general men would have an advantage over women and would comprise a larger proportion of the imperium's armed forces, that's not to say some (in fact quite a few given the imperium's size) women would not qualify or not be taken by the guard. But it is a fair assumption that the larger part of the imperial guard would be male.

PS/Side Note: I always found it strange that anything goes in the Grim-Dark 40k universe.... except for sexism coz that's just not nice:eyebrows:

MrBigMr
17-08-2008, 02:01
And I always find it strange that when ever something like this is talked, people cry PC.

Tell me, how grimdark is it to be a housewife, sitting and home, watching the kids and hoping to see the Mister some day? To tell the truth, I'd read a novel about that any day over Generic Marine Adventure part XIV. What about when you take those little girls kicking and screaming, and put them through the same drill as a man and expect them to perform as well?

Drasanil
17-08-2008, 02:23
And I always find it strange that when ever something like this is talked, people cry PC.

Uhm not sure if you are addressing me or not, but any ways 40k is supposed to be a horrible, supersticious, apathetic, un-educated backwards hell hole as far as humanity is concerned, where all sorts of nasty things happen. Yet if you listen to most forum people sexism (there are Matriarchal planets/societies in the imperium as well) is a big no no. I just don't get the thought behind that.


Tell me, how grimdark is it to be a housewife, sitting and home, watching the kids and hoping to see the Mister some day?

If you're mister is in the Imperial Guard it would be quite Grim-Dark... hoping beyond hope and sanity that your loved one could survive the horrors of the universe.


To tell the truth, I'd read a novel about that any day over Generic Marine Adventure part XIV.

Same here, I actively avoid Marine Novels, raaargh smash the xenos/chaoses/rebulz and every marine lives happily ever after.... slaughtering even more xenos/chaoses/rebulz.


What about when you take those little girls kicking and screaming, and put them through the same drill as a man and expect them to perform as well?

That would make you an excellent Ministorum bureaucrat;)

Col. Tartleton
17-08-2008, 02:46
Of course MrBigMr would make a great Ministorum Bureaucrat. He's a sick character.

But in seriousness those would make for a book the tops even the humor of Caiaphas Cain (not with humor, with goodness. Obviously it wouldn't be funny.)

Every 40k story that barely involves anything unusual is cool, like the Hive Gangers McNeil writes about, Snowdog or whatever his name was. He created a subplot that touches his UM series and has a bit more to them. I mean the only things in the short story that are out of place for human society are that there are feral nids in the under hive. Which isn't even that off the mark for normality.

I like that big book with the DA on the cover with all the short stories in it. That has a lot of less uber pwnage heroes and a bit more value towards the background IMO. Like Fall of Malvolian where even the marines are butchered and the guard officer caps himself rather than get eaten alive. Its stuff like that that makes 40k so dark and cool.

MrBigMr
17-08-2008, 02:52
Uhm not sure if you are addressing me or not, but any ways 40k is supposed to be a horrible, supersticious, apathetic, un-educated backwards hell hole as far as humanity is concerned, where all sorts of nasty things happen. Yet if you listen to most forum people sexism (there are Matriarchal planets/societies in the imperium as well) is a big no no. I just don't get the thought behind that.
Yes, but everytime you even remotely bring women up, they're bashed down with the clear argument of "women are inferior" or "in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only massive penises."

I haven't noticed much discrimination on sex in the fluff, but I don't see how there couldn't be some. I mean, cultures vary. On Necromunda not only do Goliaths think women are weak, but Escher thinks men are inferior. Hell, I once played a Goliath ganger in one larp. Too bad for me, I got sold as a slave to an Escher boss. Who also happened to be a Slaaneshi daemon. One might think "oh, that's not so bad, you're in a slave in a Slaaneshi enhanced gang that uses men only for reproduction." Well yeah, but remember, I'm the slave here and she's the tentacle monster. Just guess who gets raped.

Ok, drifted from subject, but just because some ******* might be sexist (lets say an officer, since I've seen my fare share of that), the Imperium as a whole is not (women were allowed to serve, no matter how those guys felt about it).

You got Sisters of Battle, you got Sisters of Silence, you got female regiments, officers, Inquisitors, the works. If the whole system was ripe with sexism, why don't these women know their place and stay home? To something as massive as the Imperium, women are just another resource with a different name. Soviet Union didn't do much discrimination during WW2 when they took all those millions of women and put them to the front.


Besides, why stop at sexism? Where's all the old school racism? Might it be that in the honky paleness of the far future, there are only white people (come on, even Catachans look like a Norwegian heavy metal band)? Or could it be because of the Emperor? After all, he's a Turk (who are closer to asian/middle eastern than caucasian heritage, if I'm to believe a Turkish guy who worked at the same place I did once).


If you're mister is in the Imperial Guard it would be quite Grim-Dark... hoping beyond hope and sanity that your loved one could survive the horrors of the universe.
Did the missuses of ye olde tear their hearts out when their husbands went of to fight a crusade for few decades? What about all those that ventured with Alexander or Hannibal? Imagine all the pain those poor Mongolian women went through when their husbands rode off into the sunset to see how things were on the other side of the empire. Or European when sailors left for their little trips to India or China.

People deal with it. When stuff like that happens all the time, it's shouldn't strike one so hard. I guess she knows many women who have husbands venturing through the void. She can't worry about it too much, since Emperor dammit, he'll come home or die trying.


That would make you an excellent Ministorum bureaucrat;)
Not really, since I dislike being an *******. That's why they never tried to stick me into NCO of officer training (though I had the points) in the army.


He's a sick character.
You have no idea how close that came to the actual truth.

Drasanil
17-08-2008, 03:33
Yes, but everytime you even remotely bring women up, they're bashed down with the clear argument of "women are inferior" or "in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only massive penises."

Really? Because I don't remember posting much in such debates, and when I do so it's not going around saying women are teh sux. If you read my previous post carefully, you'd notice I was replying to Lady Bastet's argument that physical uper-body strength is unimportant because some aliens and other nasty critters are so much stronger than regular humans, and that it is no reason to lower recruitment standards, and even made the point that many women would meet such standards, but given the physical diffrences between male and female, that it is a fair to assume that the larger part of the guard would be male. I don't see how that equals women are inferior and/or 40k only has big sausages n' dangle berries.


I haven't noticed much discrimination on sex in the fluff,

That would be for the same reason that there isn't much in the way of overt descriptions for Slaaneshi rituals, which also go way beyond kissing and such.... if you thought two girls one cup was nasty...:D


but I don't see how there couldn't be some.

I agree, but if there is to be sexism it will cut both ways, I even make the point by refering to Matriarchal societies in the imperium, where discrimination would apply against males. It's not DnD where men and women are perfectly equal, except for drow because femdom is cool.


I mean, cultures vary. On Necromunda not only do Goliaths think women are weak, but Escher thinks men are inferior. Hell, I once played a Goliath ganger in one larp. Too bad for me, I got sold as a slave to an Escher boss. Who also happened to be a Slaaneshi daemon. One might think "oh, that's not so bad, you're in a slave in a Slaaneshi enhanced gang that uses men only for reproduction." Well yeah, but remember, I'm the slave here and she's the tentacle monster. Just guess who gets raped.

I agree, I just think there is a double standard in that sexism in fiction is bad unless it is women that are running the show in which case it's ok. GW even had to put such a disclaimer in the Bretonian WFRP book, although it was rather amusing and well done.


Ok, drifted from subject, but just because some ******* might be sexist (lets say an officer, since I've seen my fare share of that), the Imperium as a whole is not (women were allowed to serve, no matter how those guys felt about it).

Once again I agree, I just think it's rather silly to assume that simply because the imperium as a whole is not sexist, means that there is exact parity between men and women when it comes to certain things such as the imperial guard, where the physical requirements would likely skew the ratio more towards men than women.


Besides, why stop at sexism? Where's all the old school racism? Might it be that in the honky paleness of the far future, there are only white people (come on, even Catachans look like a Norwegian heavy metal band)? Or could it be because of the Emperor? After all, he's a Turk (who are closer to asian/middle eastern than caucasian heritage, if I'm to believe a Turkish guy who worked at the same place I did once).

There probably is rascism on certain worlds, that is untill your planet gets attacked by orks, hrud, nids...


Did the missuses of ye olde tear their hearts out when their husbands went of to fight a crusade for few decades? What about all those that ventured with Alexander or Hannibal? Imagine all the pain those poor Mongolian women went through when their husbands rode off into the sunset to see how things were on the other side of the empire. Or European when sailors left for their little trips to India or China.

You kind of missed the point in all those examples you listed there, the husbands in question actually had a chance to return to their families. In the Imperium a guard regiment returning to their homeworld is almost unheard of. People cope yes, but if they are operating under the dillusion that they will see their loved ones again when they have a better chance of winning the lottery ten times over it is pretty grim dark, at least as far as I am concerned.


Not really, since I dislike being an *******. That's why they never tried to stick me into NCO of officer training (though I had the points) in the army.

Oh come now being a good bureaucrat has nothing to do with be an *******, it's all about apathy and doing things in triplicate;)


You have no idea how close that came to the actual truth.

Eheh.

Lady Bastet
17-08-2008, 04:18
Strength would not be unimportant, just significantly less so.


Kroot yes, Ork no. Orks are all big and tough and bulky, but not really much stronger than humans. The boys anyway, the older and nastier they get, ok that gets different, but regular boys are only the strength of a guardsmen. I agree with your overall point though.
Orks in the background are often portrayed as significantly stronger than humans; it does well to remember that Strength 3 covers all natural human ability and that a Bolter round – a self propelled missile is strength 4.


Why lower physical standards for your troops in the 41st milenium simply because some filthy xenos have infernal chaos spawned strength?
Why significantly reduce your pool of potential troops out of some misguided attempt to match this infernal strength?

PS/Side Note: Sexism can have its place within a setting but not as part of the setting. Any singular world within the Imperium has its own culture, its own views on matters such as homosexuality, sexism and race. I could not care less if [Insert Planet name here] considers women to be the weaker sex.

An entire setting of it though? Thats just creepy and you cannot help but look for subtext and the author's agenda.

Clockwork-Knight
17-08-2008, 04:49
Why should it be? After all, the Imperium is the most terrible regime ever imaginable, with outright hatred for anything non-human, where the absolute majority of its citizens lives in poverty and works hard, according to the newest rulebook.
Of course, one has to remember that one of the imperial elite-forces consists purely of women: The Sororitas-troops of the Ecclessiarchy. However, they only exist because the church of the God-Emperor Immortal is forbidden to have men at arms, showing once more that there seems to be some kind gender-disparity in the Imperium (especially when the Ecclessiarchy has strong influence there).

Lady Bastet
17-08-2008, 06:30
However, they only exist because the church of the God-Emperor Immortal is forbidden to have men at arms, showing once more that there seems to be some kind gender-disparity in the Imperium.
The Brides of the Emperor were an elite military force (Vandire's personal bodyguard) even before the Decree Passive. Even more importantly their future leaders had actually been brought before the Emperor.

They were not some afterthought because the Ecclessiarchy could not have man anymore.

Koryphaus
17-08-2008, 10:27
if you thought two girls one cup was nasty...:D


:eek: Yes, yes I did. Please never bring it up again.

Logarithm Udgaur
17-08-2008, 12:45
:eek: Yes, yes I did. Please never bring it up again.

Unfortunately that vid was not the worst thing I have ever seen on the internet.

Poseidal
17-08-2008, 13:14
But to the Wraith units. Why are Wraiths humanoid (legs, arms, head, torso)? Why not hovering orbs that can shoot lasers 360 without even trying? Or spiders? Or something more superior? Why humanoid? Think about that.
I'm not sure whether this is a rhetorical question or not but Wraith Constructs are controlled by Eldar Spirit Stones (aka Eldar Spirits) which were previously humanoid flesh and blood creatures. Now it's said that when the spirits are called to war, they don't see things as solidly anyway - imagine if it now had to control a floating ball of death armed with wraithcannons?

Kettu
17-08-2008, 13:17
@Clockwork-Knight;

Like Lady Bastet said. The Daughters of the Emperor come Brides come Daughters again were the private army and bodyguard of Vandire who's actions, after all was said and done, forced the hand of Sebastian Thor into bringing the Decree Passive in law.

It was worded perfectly as to allow the Church to continue to own their own army whilst looking utterly innocent at the same time.

MrBigMr
17-08-2008, 14:08
Really? Because I don't remember posting much in such debates
'You', as in the generic "you can't catch a break in this crazy world" 'you'.


That would be for the same reason that there isn't much in the way of overt descriptions for Slaaneshi rituals, which also go way beyond kissing and such....
There's a Slaaneshi ritual going on in my pants and everyone is invited.


if you thought two girls one cup was nasty...:D
...you haven't read my Slaaneshi fluff.

The internet is filled with all sorts of crazy stuff. The thing that actually underlined the rules of the internet for me, was when I came across a rule 34/63 Imperial Aquila. The Emperor is rolling on His throne.


There probably is rascism on certain worlds, that is untill your planet gets attacked by orks, hrud, nids...
...they first shoot the minorities for calling their alien overlords and then proceed to win.


You kind of missed the point in all those examples you listed there, the husbands in question actually had a chance to return to their families. In the Imperium a guard regiment returning to their homeworld is almost unheard of.
I've understood it that you give a fixed years of service and you get to go home. Vets are good at training new recruits, not to forget officers, etc. It would be wasteful to throw good officers away like that. And what about penal legions like the Last Chancers. They survive the suicide mission and they're free. Or something like that. I mean, if I didn't get to go home after few years of service, might as well enlist to a penal legion and then I'd at least have a chance of getting out.


People cope yes, but if they are operating under the dillusion that they will see their loved ones again when they have a better chance of winning the lottery ten times over it is pretty grim dark, at least as far as I am concerned.
Emperor saves. The rest take full damage.


I'm not sure whether this is a rhetorical question or not but Wraith Constructs are controlled by Eldar Spirit Stones (aka Eldar Spirits) which were previously humanoid flesh and blood creatures. Now it's said that when the spirits are called to war, they don't see things as solidly anyway - imagine if it now had to control a floating ball of death armed with wraithcannons?
That's the point I'm making. Humanoid mind and/or soul in a humanoid body.

Koryphaus
17-08-2008, 14:32
The internet is filled with all sorts of crazy stuff. The thing that actually underlined the rules of the internet for me, was when I came across a rule 34/63 Imperial Aquila. The Emperor is rolling on His throne.

I don't even want to know what you might be referring to there.. Ignorance is bliss :)

Doctor Thunder
17-08-2008, 16:14
Why lower physical standards for your troops in the 41st milenium simply because some filthy xenos have infernal chaos spawned strength?

Non-conscript guards are supposed to be the best of a planet's PDF (under normal circumstances), and would have rather stringent physical fitness standards for strength and endurance. Meaning that in general men would have an advantage over women and would comprise a larger proportion of the imperium's armed forces, that's not to say some (in fact quite a few given the imperium's size) women would not qualify or not be taken by the guard. But it is a fair assumption that the larger part of the imperial guard would be male.

You've never served in the military, have you?

Endurance is important, but upper body strength is largely meaningless in modern warfare(meaning WWI and forward), which is what the IG are based on. What a Guardsman/Guardswomen needs is the ability to pull a trigger and work as part of a team.

As far as the Imperium is concerned, a female IG would be indistinguishable from a male IG in terms of combat effectiveness. They can both shoot a lasgun and take a bullet.

madd0ct0r
17-08-2008, 16:34
And preferably in that order.

RevenantX
17-08-2008, 17:03
I think the "only need the strength to pull a trigger" is a ridiculous argument given the setting, more like "sweet holy jesus the hormagaunts are right on top fix bayoNYARGHOHMYGODITBITMYARMOFF!".

That being said, there are no women in 40K. Thread closed.

MrBigMr
17-08-2008, 17:09
Thread closed.
Right-o, sir.