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CULCHAIN
29-07-2008, 23:08
I do not know if this has been posted before.:rolleyes:

If the warp is a collection of our emotions wouldn't some parts be good. What about hope, love, compassion. Why aren't there angelics fighting the chaos. Isn't there a dimension of fluffy bunnies.:wtf:

MvS
29-07-2008, 23:17
It isn't so much about 'good' emotions and 'bad' emotions so much as it is about extremes of emotion.

The Chaos Gods are 'evil' because they are an absolute extreme, but within their areas of interest lie generally 'good' emotions like the hope that you mentioned, for instance, and delight, passion, honour, the will to survive, the desire to cope, creativity and so on and on.

If an entity feeds off of a particular emotion, try and imagine promoting and experiencing that emotion in the extreme and to the exclusion of all others. So delight, happiness, pleasure, contentment and joy are all 'good', but if you are driven to seek these emotions out and experience them the the enth degree all the time you will appear to be selfish and probaby insane.

That extremity is the essence of Chaos. Balanced emotions and desires are the opposite of Chaos.

But simply, I would imagine that there are Warp entities of charity or whatever, it's just that the more primal and passionate emotions (like rage, ecstasy and so on) are so much stronger....

Feor
30-07-2008, 00:14
The good emotions are actually rolled into the Chaos Gods.

Nurgle, for example, is the god of despair and decay, but he's also the god of hope.
Slaanesh covers love and joy.
Tzeentch covers creativity and change.
Khorne covers honour and justice.

But as has been said, these are the extremes of emotion, the god that represents balance of emotion and peacefulness is... The Emperor. Not originally, but that's what he's grown to represent over the past 10 millenia, so those are the things that will be feeding him.

PondaNagura
30-07-2008, 00:17
i'd believe there to be 'justly' entities in the warp, but do to the nature of the galaxy's psyche, those entities would be less substantial, few and far between, and probably snuffed out by the more extreme and plentiful emotions of hate, rage, malice, etc.
benign warp entities, or perhaps warp embodiments of the Emperor's will or a people's faith in such things might spawn 'angels' if only momentarily.

Invader Nails
30-07-2008, 01:58
Also remember that while the Eldar Empire was ascendent in the galaxy, their gods -- Asuryan, Vaul, Isha, Kurnuous, etc. -- were the dominant powers in the Warp. The current aeon of the Big Four is relatively new, in a galactic sense.

Drugmoney420
30-07-2008, 02:48
According to realms of chaos their are many more gods than just the big four. However, none of these are as powerful. Some are use all of their power to create a single daemon and then become that daemon so their are many gods just few powerful ones. Some powerful mortal souls can even form daemons after they die.

So in the warp the possibilities are endless.

baphomael
30-07-2008, 03:14
The truth is, there is no such thing as 'good' or 'evil' in the warp. There is no 'positive' or 'negative', no 'black' or 'white'.

The warp, as we all already know, is a realm of pure psychic-emotional energy. Emotions convalesce within the warp - the most powerful of which can grow to such proportions they gain sentience. The thing that sucks for mortal sentience is that the most powerful emotions are, pretty much, the extremes. Thus, the Chaos Gods exist.

The Chaos Gods themselves are neither good nor evil, but represent their associated emotions in the purest, most extreme, ways. Their 'power' exists because the emotions associated with them (hope, despair, rage, ecstasy) are the ones that mortal creature experience the most often and in the strongest sense (afterall, compare being angry to apoplectic extent to being mildly annoyed at something, or at the verge of suicide compared to being slightly worried) in an era of constant war and eternal strife, these emotions are the most felt and strongest.

Of course, there are plenty of 'warp entities'. Every emotion takes form in the warp. Some of these are strong enough to exist as sentient beings, others wither and die shortly after being born (we all experience emotions to varying degrees, but some are short lived affairs - emotions change constantly. For example, the slight tingle of excitement when one finds some money on the pavement. It exists for a while, but is ultimately short-lived).

However, the most powerful and catholic (as in, universal, not the religion) emotions are so often felt and so extreme in nature, the are able to self-perpetuate (eg, the chaos gods influencing others). In this sense, they become so powerful and so self aware they can feed off and snuff out burgeoning warp-entities. Thus, even if there is a glimmer of 'golden rule' style charity, mercy and tolerance that is strong enough to give birth to a warp entity associated with it, the chaos gods (and, possibly, other powerful warp entities) can just gobble them up like an alcoholic at an open bar.


So, yes, there are many 'gods' (and daemons) residing in the warp. Not all are the Chaos Gods, but the Chaos Gods are the bullies of this metaphysical playground - using 'peer pressure' (in a sense) to encourage mortals to see things their way, while beating up all the little "gods" that represent anything different.


EDIT: Oh, and just to be clear, worship in itself does not create a god of the warp. Just worshipping khorne does not perpetuate khorne. *Experiencing* khorne perpetuates the god (ie, one might worship khorne, but that alone doesnt give him power. However, its a kind of reciprocal relationship - khorne encourages the emotions that create him, while his devotees enact them, thus creating the emotions in the first place, like a vicious cycle).

druchii lord narakh
30-07-2008, 06:20
if you look at a chaos undivided star it has four large spikes representing the four major chaos gods then has four smaller spikes. if you think the smaller ones could be the other emotion. in a chaostwistingimperial theory the empore is rumored to have taken chaos power but what if he was givin it by lets call them the littleguys. and on with the star if you look all the spikes are running away from the center. i dont know what you think( i cant do telepathy yet) but that could be say THE end, another more terrifying god, the necs, or in some major offthelog theorys it could be the emporer, but then that rules out the four littleguys from giving him power.

Invader Nails
30-07-2008, 09:44
Are you suggesting that the center of the Chaos star is some ancient horror that the points are running away from? Because I don't know about that. I'd consider the center of the star to be the emergence point of the conciousness that gives birth to the reality of the Warp (and probably the physical universe as well, quantum weirdness being what it is).

Chilltouch
30-07-2008, 09:46
One reason why there are so few 'good' parts of the Warp is because the colossal Warp entities that are the Big Four probably end up 'eating' them, although it's probably much more like assimilating them. Just imagine a gargantuan whirlpool next to a much smaller one - they're not going to remain seperate. The smaller of the two vortexes is going to be assimilated and will become a part of the larger one - which will just make it even bigger.
In the end, those small, possibly good Chaos Gods start off too small and grow far too slowly. Before they can become any threat to any Chaos God, they are consumed and the cycle starts all over again, with the good Chaos God slowly being born from a few emotions and growing ever so slowly - only to be eaten again.

If there was somehow a massive burst of the same emotion throughout the universe - like there was with the old Eldar empire, which caused the creation of Slaanesh - then perhaps the Chaos God would grow at such a massive rate that it could not be consumed so easily and would become a match for the Big Four.

Somnicide
30-07-2008, 18:06
There is no good to the warp because the warp is a place of extremes. Goodness is measured in humanities ability to moderate these extremes.

Love becomes obsession
Self sacrifice becomes self flagellation
Honor becomes pride
Hope becomes delusion (actually, hope was the final evil released from pandora's box)
Compassion becomes pity and loathing

CULCHAIN
30-07-2008, 18:33
hope was not the final evil it was the one thing we have to deal with the evil.

the extreme of love is not obsession once it moves to that it is no longer love

I do not buy the extreme theory I just think it was done for simplistic reasons. the great big bad other dimension boogggaa boogggaa

MvS
30-07-2008, 22:44
I do not buy the extreme theory I just think it was done for simplistic reasons.
So you prefer 'good' and 'bad' emotions rather than 'balanced' and 'extreme', or 'constructive' and 'corrosive'?

Dominus_Serui
30-07-2008, 22:57
Given that Eldar gods exist in the Warp...and the one surviving one is a fertility godess who isn't formed out of any extreams...I'm going to say its plausible for there to be good realms within the Warp...given that the realm of Chaos is not the Warp...if you get what I meen...

Jackal_Strain
30-07-2008, 23:09
There is no good to the warp because the warp is a place of extremes. Goodness is measured in humanities ability to moderate these extremes.

Love becomes obsession
Self sacrifice becomes self flagellation
Honor becomes pride
Hope becomes delusion (actually, hope was the final evil released from pandora's box)
Compassion becomes pity and loathing

I agree with this. emotions are ultimately expressions of the ego.

Temmy
31-07-2008, 00:06
In the warp, the balanced harmonious aspects of emotion tend to dissolve and merge with the general flow of the warp. Its the extremes that remain. Think of the warp as a kind of ecology. Harmonious and balanced emotions decompose and dissolve and are recycled into the warp, rather like organic substances in nature. They become a harmonious part of the warp. Chaos is like pollution. Extremes of emotion remain and pollute the warp, rather like radioactive waste or synthetic toxins in our own environment. This is why most Chaos entities tend to be negative.

Dominus_Serui
31-07-2008, 00:31
That said, we've got CLEAR facts that point to the latter, what with several gods beeing 'good' Warp Figures - I cannot see anything about Isha that really exemplifies an extream...I meen the simple fact that Warp entities can draw power from Worship and desire it (see = individual chaos demons sneaking off from their gods to form their own cults).

CULCHAIN
31-07-2008, 00:44
So you prefer 'good' and 'bad' emotions rather than 'balanced' and 'extreme', or 'constructive' and 'corrosive'?

no if you read the quote before he is saying that all the emotions become extreme so in reality I am looking for more of a 'balance' of emotions

Tanith Ghost
31-07-2008, 01:59
Based on the idea of emotion creating warp entities, I do think it very possible for emotions besides the big four to create spirits in the warp as it were. Warp creatures that would not necessarily prey upon a soul, but interact with it, or even guard it.

To be taken with a grain of salt: My own personal opinion has always been the Emperor's presence in the warp has the ability to gather souls to himself, and with the help of such
non-malicious warp creatures, can rescue the souls of his warriors and worshipers from the clutches of daemons.

Alessander
31-07-2008, 02:06
There used to be a greater deamon of life and a greater daemon of death, back in WFRP days. Those are long gone.

CULCHAIN
31-07-2008, 05:47
any one remeber malel? not sure of the spelling he was the god of chaos and tried to kill the other chaos gods

Drasanil
31-07-2008, 06:23
There used to be a greater deamon of life and a greater daemon of death, back in WFRP days. Those are long gone.

To be fair the Mardagg was a Greater Deamon of Khorne.

Although the cool part was the Viydgg's rules, namely being that when ever a Mardagg appears there was a 10% chance Viydagg would appear to destroy it and that any Mardagg destroyed by a Viydagg was gone for good, as in totally dead.

Meaning that at least in the early days of WFRP Lawfull deities had the power to strike a telling blow against the chaotic ones. I kind of miss that balance, it favoured chaos, but at least it gave a fighting chance to those who did not support it.

GodofWarTx
31-07-2008, 07:11
i would say the emperor's warp presence is a focused, intelligent force of "good" in the sense that it does whatever it can to protect humanity and fight the chaos god's influence.

There used to be things like warp angels and warp vampires in the fluff, im not so sure about anymore but it would be nice to see that touched on again.

CULCHAIN
31-07-2008, 15:29
yeee haaawww my first thread to go past one page

icag1
04-08-2011, 18:01
Anybody remember the Dark Future series with Krokodil and N'Guyen Seth? They were always talking about the Ancient Adversary vs Tzeentch, Nurgle, Shibboleth et al...

I'm pretty sure they have the Emperor in them also as 'The Rider'

orz192
04-08-2011, 20:23
The four main chaos gods incorporating positive human emotions is nonsensical because the human mind will always search for catharsis before self destruction.
The followers of the chaos gods and the warp entities loyal to the four main chaos gods are never depicted with positive behavior so there is not really a correlation between the main chaos gods and cathartic emotions.

Any pieces of the warp that could be considered good are usually ruled out because many fans don't want their "grimdark" lessened. The good pieces of the warp that I can currently think of would be the Emporer, (depending on the viewers belief) the Sanguinor, and possibly the legion of the damned.

I wish positive entities were portrayed in 40k literature but the grimdark concept has been too firmly ingrained in many players minds.

Xisor
04-08-2011, 20:39
I wish positive entities were portrayed in 40k literature but the grimdark concept has been too firmly ingrained in many players minds.

Yeah, it certainly hasn't been like that for a quarter of a century. :eyebrows:

Hope, release from agony and elation certainly are positive concepts; they're embodied just as well by the powers of the warp. They just happen to be malign and the warp, by it's nature, removing of order.

There's plenty of positive, it just doesn't mean angelic hosts and cupid.

FlashGordon
04-08-2011, 20:44
any one remeber malel? not sure of the spelling he was the god of chaos and tried to kill the other chaos gods

Malal
I think the eqvivalents(sp) in fantasy nowadays are Belakor and in 40k Ahriman.

orz192
04-08-2011, 21:39
Yeah, it certainly hasn't been like that for a quarter of a century. :eyebrows:

Hope, release from agony and elation certainly are positive concepts; they're embodied just as well by the powers of the warp. They just happen to be malign and the warp, by it's nature, removing of order.

There's plenty of positive, it just doesn't mean angelic hosts and cupid.

The rotting, festering, disease ridden daemons of Nurgle embodying hope is not portrayed. Tzeentch is never portrayed as a god of knowledge, just conniving and mutating. I am not referring to angels or beings made of light and stars so much as a balance within the pantheon. The Emporer serves that balance but the setting really needs some help evolving.

The premise is that if the warp is based off emotions from the sentient races in the 40k universe, principally humans at this point with the exclusion of Slaanesh and the Eldar, move towards catharsis and happiness.

The main warp powers have nothing to do with any real positive emotion as portrayed in 40k literature, if any trait is hinted at it is done in a sarcastic manner.

Xisor
04-08-2011, 21:46
The Emperor doesn't serve that balance in the slightest. The Imperial Truth might have done, once, but it's been dead and gone for eight millennia. If the Emperor is god of anything, I maintain he's the god of these two concepts:
- Ignorance
- Obedience

What else do humans worship when they worship the Emperor? Salvation through trusting in Him and His Will (ignorance and obedience). (And martial, violent strength, but Khorne's already nicked that.)

Perhaps I'm missing something though; where's the idea that sentient life is massively dominated by catharsis coming in from?

It's blatantly put that even the positive emotions merge into the warp, it's merely that the so-called negative ones are in greater abundance. I think describing the emotions as positive and negative is affording them an undue sense of worth. Encapsulating Nurgle as god of disease is...over-simplistic. Almost every 'detailed' look at the nature of Nurgle goes on to say things like Nurgle being god of release from despair, of laughter in the face of inevitability, of eventual, blissful acceptance of fate. The disease gimmick is just like Slaanesh being god of earthly pleasures; there's more to it than that.

Pinning the Four down as embodying four negatives is ... missing the point.

orz192
05-08-2011, 00:39
The Emperor doesn't serve that balance in the slightest. The Imperial Truth might have done, once, but it's been dead and gone for eight millennia. If the Emperor is god of anything, I maintain he's the god of these two concepts:
- Ignorance
- Obedience

What else do humans worship when they worship the Emperor? Salvation through trusting in Him and His Will (ignorance and obedience). (And martial, violent strength, but Khorne's already nicked that.)

Perhaps I'm missing something though; where's the idea that sentient life is massively dominated by catharsis coming in from?

It's blatantly put that even the positive emotions merge into the warp, it's merely that the so-called negative ones are in greater abundance. I think describing the emotions as positive and negative is affording them an undue sense of worth. Encapsulating Nurgle as god of disease is...over-simplistic. Almost every 'detailed' look at the nature of Nurgle goes on to say things like Nurgle being god of release from despair, of laughter in the face of inevitability, of eventual, blissful acceptance of fate. The disease gimmick is just like Slaanesh being god of earthly pleasures; there's more to it than that.

Pinning the Four down as embodying four negatives is ... missing the point.

The idea that we search for catharsis comes from psychology, we will strive to feel good and balance out extremes for our emotional well being.

The potrayal is what I am looking at in the warp powers, I am not going to bother arguing the point because you will believe what you want, but to me the background is skewed towards a "emo" mindset deliberately looking for misery.

Xisor
05-08-2011, 11:35
Again, reread the deeper points in depiction of Nurgle. The mirth and joy in misery seems distinctly contra-"emo". But then I've never seen the depiction of "emo with the flu".

Lord-Caerolion
05-08-2011, 12:05
The four main chaos gods incorporating positive human emotions is nonsensical because the human mind will always search for catharsis before self destruction.
The followers of the chaos gods and the warp entities loyal to the four main chaos gods are never depicted with positive behavior so there is not really a correlation between the main chaos gods and cathartic emotions.

Any pieces of the warp that could be considered good are usually ruled out because many fans don't want their "grimdark" lessened. The good pieces of the warp that I can currently think of would be the Emporer, (depending on the viewers belief) the Sanguinor, and possibly the legion of the damned.

I wish positive entities were portrayed in 40k literature but the grimdark concept has been too firmly ingrained in many players minds.

What they're trying to say is that Chaos does incorporate "good" emotions, but any emotion taken too far becomes evil. What starts off as 'love' gets taken too far, and becomes obsession and dependance. What starts off as healthy rivalry becomes the deepest hatred. What starts off as trying to survive becomes being unwilling to change. What starts off as curiosity becomes the study into the forbidden.

Yes, humanity will always strive for balance and cartharsis over destruction, but that's missing the point. The Chaos Gods are the extremes of all human emotions and drives, and what may initially be positive and carthartic becomes destructive and damaging if taken too far.

For example, Khorne also represents the drive of wanting justice. However, as this drive grows and becomes more and more extreme, the person will start seeing injustices in places where there are none, punishing the innocent because of some imagined wrong-doing. In the end, everything else other than them is corrupt and in need of destruction, with them being the only person worthy of doing it. Khorne is strengthened by the drive towards justice, but Khorne always pushes for more and more, so that eventually they're the same bloodthirsty murderer they were wanting to eradicate.


However, I'm also of the view that Chaos is destructive because we as a species see these emotions and drives as destructive, and so the Warp has come to reflect those views, which only serves to further entrench the belief. We can never admit to ourselves that deep down, we're all capable of these "inhuman" acts, that only "monsters" could do such things. The Chaos Gods are daemons because we demonise ourselves.
Compare this to the Eldar, who accepted that there is darkness within each and every one of them. They didn't lie to themselves that each of them was a potential murderer, and as such the emotions and drives lacked that negative stigma. As a result, they formed gods like Khaine, who while still a horrific bloodthirsty god, was also the great defender of the Eldar race, giving them the strength to survive. Morai-Heg was a Godess of knowledge, but she understood that some things, mortals were not meant to know. Lilleath was a "pleasure" godess, but was an innocent maiden, rather than the sadomasochistic aesthete that is Slaanesh. Isha was about the acceptance of death, and the cycle of life and death, whereas Nurgle represents the denial of mortality.

Simply put, Chaos is evil because we can't accept that we aren't.

orz192
05-08-2011, 20:40
Again, reread the deeper points in depiction of Nurgle. The mirth and joy in misery seems distinctly contra-"emo". But then I've never seen the depiction of "emo with the flu".

The disease depiction is partly what I was I looking at, the general descriptions of Nurgle do describe his humor and fatherly devotion for his followers, but the manifestations of his power are destructive and spread misery.

I really see a balance missing, the extremes are given a symbol which is stagnant and does not depict the full spread of emotion.

The extremes of the warp are best depicted in Graham McNeil's "A Thousand Sons" I think. Less solid and more other worldly.

sidcom
05-08-2011, 20:47
I wonder how Gork and Mork manifest in the Warp, obviously even the Big Four are pretty wary to fight them (maybe if they worked together on this) and leave them be most of the time, however, as Gork and Mork manifest extremes of violence and desire for eternal fighting, I would guess they are constanly serching some lesser beings to fight if Chaos gods avoid them? Also, does their power grow if there is some huge Ork Waagh in real universe (like Armagedon for example)?

Xisor
05-08-2011, 21:17
Fair enough, Orz. I was about to suggest that emotions might be exponential in tending towards the critical thresholds needed to manifest as vortexual 'gods' and 'entities'. Then there's runaway feedback when warp things actually manifest. (So cupid might manifest as a 'positive daemon', then it is its own thing...looking for 'stronger' emotions to feast on/wander near?)

So if emotional intensity has a bigger effect in the warp (e.g. hauntings occuring at the scene of violent crimes where day-to-day things typically don't), it might mean that the serenity/peacefulness of the tendency to catharsis is a bit like a null field inasmuch as it 'calms' the warp, it orders it. But for 'daemons' and things, they have to be sufficiently powerful to distinguish themselves from the tide. A daemon of 'calm' would be a bit strange to concieve of, but I'd not rule it out.

Well, I say 'about to suggest', I just did. I don't see it as hugely compelling, but it sorta accounts for why 'neutral' emotions don't manifest as strongly...they're 'calming' the warp rather than whipping it up to make the vortices we expect which yield daemons and gods and whatnot.

---

Of Gork and Mork

I've imagined them for a long time to be 'battlesuits' in the Warp. E.g. any old Old One/Brain Boy could assume the role of Gork (or Mork) and locally/globally/galactically(?) take-up the 'reins' of that god, e.g. it was a control mechanism in a manner.

At the moment, there're no Old Ones so the orks are just sortof pottering around, doing the normal things they do with only a vague sense of purpose. Sometime's the 'command suit' is activated, perhaps a button depresses by accident, perhaps some random noise is misheard as an actual command and suddenly Waaaagh!

I would imagine that, if folks aren't careful (I'm looking at you Ork/Nid Megafight), an Ork might actually develop sufficient power to 'tap into' the remains of that battlesuit in the Warp and then pass a threshold that causes the 'armour' of the suit to destabilise, e.g. the stuff which keeps the general nonsense of Chaos out and suddenly...Gork and Mork are possessed by Chaos. (In a manner, this ties similarly to the vague fan-encouraged idea that Cegorach [the Laughing God], to an extent, joined with the Webway, and so nowadays is the Webway.)

E.g. the Laughing God latched onto the webway and hides within it, Gork and Mork might be technically dead, but their 'armoured battlesuit' still operate, to an extent, hence why the Orks can draw on some of their power still, but not to the extent even of having Living Saints, Legion of the Damned, Sanguinor or Draigo. (Ghost orks? Yeah, that's all we need! [Good excuse to play Orks using the daemons rules though. ;) ])

Which leads me neatly proposing that Alpharius/Omegon are Gork/Mork. Drawn from the warp, bound as twins who're brutally cunning and cunningly brutal, inheriting the fragmented warpy-know-how and pragmatism left behind as residue in the warp-battle-suits...they've already 'accepted' Chaos can't be beaten, merely...mitigated. The Ork gods sold out...in the interests of eternal war and the survival of the species(plura!l). (So long as humanity survives, orks'll at least have them to fight against...)

Yes, it's out there, but whatcha gonna do? :p

KingDeath
06-08-2011, 00:10
The rotting, festering, disease ridden daemons of Nurgle embodying hope is not portrayed. Tzeentch is never portrayed as a god of knowledge, just conniving and mutating. I am not referring to angels or beings made of light and stars so much as a balance within the pantheon. The Emporer serves that balance but the setting really needs some help evolving.

The premise is that if the warp is based off emotions from the sentient races in the 40k universe, principally humans at this point with the exclusion of Slaanesh and the Eldar, move towards catharsis and happiness.

The main warp powers have nothing to do with any real positive emotion as portrayed in 40k literature, if any trait is hinted at it is done in a sarcastic manner.

Nurgle does not embody hope, his most harmless aspect or rather "gift" is endurance.
This aspect is clearly venerated by several tribes in the warhammer fantasy world.
Tzeentch's subdomain of knowledge is mentioned more than a few times in the fluff ( 1k Sons, the Scourged, Ahriman ). His primal emotion is hope, more precisely hope for change. The opressed worker in some bonecrushing underhive factory might just as easily fall to Tzeentch as a planetary govenour who wishes to improve his station.

To consider the Emperor, a boneheaded fanatic whose own ignorance and arrogance caused 10000 years of darkness for mankind as a balancing force for the setting is a joke.

Lord-Caerolion
06-08-2011, 03:49
Exactly. Nurgle doesn't embody "Hope" so much as the concept of "better the devil you know". Nurgle isn't about hoping you'll get better, Nurgle is about denying that something is wrong, he's the manifestation of all the ways we try to distract ourselves from our own mortality, and all the ways we accept "well, I've just been diagnosed with terminal cancer, may as well go out with a bang!".

Cernz
07-08-2011, 01:16
Yes there are as explained in codex:daemons of chaos, the section describing seekers of slaanesh mentions a lush golden field which represents free will.

MvS
07-08-2011, 08:36
I think it's worth mentioning that it isn't just emotion that forms Warp entities, it's also souls and soul fragments drawn together by mutual attraction. The Emperor as a Warp God doesn't have to represent an emotion per se like the the Chaos Gods - it could just be the amalgamation of all those souls of people who were utterly and fanatically obsessed with the Emperor as a religious concept in whatever form. So it could be more rounded in some ways with more interests and drives than, say, Khorne, but it would still be the sum total of every screaming Emperor worshiping fanatic who died for 10,000 years, and continually shaped by the rigid expectations of quadrillions more living Emperor worshiping humans, so would probably closely resemble the militaristic, xenophobic, intolerant and ruthless deity preached by the Ecclesiarchy.

stormblade
07-08-2011, 09:04
The Emperor doesn't serve that balance in the slightest. The Imperial Truth might have done, once, but it's been dead and gone for eight millennia. If the Emperor is god of anything, I maintain he's the god of these two concepts:
- Ignorance
- Obedience

What else do humans worship when they worship the Emperor? Salvation through trusting in Him and His Will (ignorance and obedience). (And martial, violent strength, but Khorne's already nicked that.)

Perhaps I'm missing something though; where's the idea that sentient life is massively dominated by catharsis coming in from?

(...)The disease gimmick is just like Slaanesh being god of earthly pleasures; there's more to it than that.


And there is more to The Emperor than the two things you named- imperial citizens pray to him for everything; he might as well be the god of farmers and factory workers or hatred of xenos.

Xisor
07-08-2011, 19:33
Oh, of course there's more to him. But there's more to Tzeentch than change and more to Nurgle than disease.

More to the Emperor than obedience and ignorance? Sure! More to the Emperor than humanity? I'm saying 'sure', but I imagine other's might disagree. If you're encapsulating the Emperor as a concept, I don't think you can get much better than blind, unquestioning obedience. But, as said, that is quite a substantial 'distillation', and possibly not exactly accurate either.

By MvS' point though, it does highlight that the 'Emperor as a God' is probably (definitely?) going to be a bit different (and, strictly speaking, 'composed' of different things) from the man he was in life.

I wonder if creation of the warp-god is required to 'reincarnate' the original seed-idea that is the New (err, Repeated?) Man? [/waffle]

Karl MkVI
07-08-2011, 19:55
What they're trying to say is that Chaos does incorporate "good" emotions, but any emotion taken too far becomes evil. What starts off as 'love' gets taken too far, and becomes obsession and dependance. What starts off as healthy rivalry becomes the deepest hatred. What starts off as trying to survive becomes being unwilling to change. What starts off as curiosity becomes the study into the forbidden.


This.

That is all I feel the need to contribute :)

Tastyfish
08-08-2011, 09:29
Posted this elsewhere, but it seems fairly relevant - it's how I see the daemonic ecosystem working, and a little about the nature of different souls.


The warp is a realm of ideas and concepts, with increasingly broader or more general/universal concepts acting as predators, absorbing the smaller and more specific beings into themselves. Kha'a'ganath, Daemon of Spurned Lovers would hunt down the souls of those who have let that aspect or emotion to dominate their life and personalty. Once that soul has had the other parts shriven from it (the remains of anything that be interpreted as part of Spurned Love couldn't being hovered up by the tiny imps and minor daemons that follow in Kha'a'ganath's spectral wake, feeding off the much more specific concepts that made up the personality of that lost soul) it becomes part of the Kha'a'ganath, combining with the remnants and memories of other souls the daemon has consumed until all that is left is the feeling of rage. Eventually, this rage will make up a larger and larger part of Kha'a'ganath's being until he attracts the attention of his lord, Khorne, who consumes him. Like the previous process, the pure rage is consumed and gristle holding it together, that feeling of Spurned Love, is spat out and Kha'a'ganth is reborn.

So what separates out souls from their discarded and refined remains is the sense of self that binds all the elements and aspects of a personality together. The stronger a sense of self, the tighter the net and more concentrated the warp stuff clustered in once place (potentially stressing the boundaries between the Empyrean and Material worlds, like a mini-Eye of Terror or a Singularity in spacetime, and allowing for overlap. A psychic has enough warp stuff surrounding them that their idea of what the material universe should be like can break through and actually alter realspace, I don't believe there is such a thing as a humble psyker).

Eldar being very inward focused, emotional and independant, have an incredibly strong sense of "self", are blazing beacons in the warp and tend to produce a lot more psykers. They also tend towards obsession, so it's a huge amount of one "type" of essence. A feast for any daemon that can consume them.

Humans have a fairly broad range, but are rarely as self obsessed as Eldar and have a greater tendency towards defining themselves as being part of a group (usually factions, fans and professions). You get a huge amount of sustenance from an Eldar but humans tend to process the concepts that define them a great deal more, making them more interesting prey for a larger number of powerful daemons than their warp presence alone would suggest. They're lots of little packages of warp essence, not filling but easy to digest.

Tau on the other hand, whilst having as much essence as a Human, don't have a strong sense of self. They see themselves primarily as part of a whole rather than as an individual. It's a very diffuse light in the warp and hard to tell where one being starts and one ends. When they die, you could try to consume the soul but there's a lot of other concious (and less vulnerable) souls getting in the way of you reaching the really tasty bits (think of looking for the feint beam of a torch with the light on), leaving you with the hard to digest grit of really specific concepts which you'd have probably discarded anyway. However lacking a strong enough sense of self, there's no way they can gather enough warp stuff to them to exert any will over the material world and thus can never be psychic.

Gdolkin
12-08-2011, 00:50
What they're trying to say is that Chaos does incorporate "good" emotions, but any emotion taken too far becomes evil. What starts off as 'love' gets taken too far, and becomes obsession and dependance. What starts off as healthy rivalry becomes the deepest hatred. What starts off as trying to survive becomes being unwilling to change. What starts off as curiosity becomes the study into the forbidden.

Yes, humanity will always strive for balance and cartharsis over destruction, but that's missing the point. The Chaos Gods are the extremes of all human emotions and drives, and what may initially be positive and carthartic becomes destructive and damaging if taken too far.

For example, Khorne also represents the drive of wanting justice. However, as this drive grows and becomes more and more extreme, the person will start seeing injustices in places where there are none, punishing the innocent because of some imagined wrong-doing. In the end, everything else other than them is corrupt and in need of destruction, with them being the only person worthy of doing it. Khorne is strengthened by the drive towards justice, but Khorne always pushes for more and more, so that eventually they're the same bloodthirsty murderer they were wanting to eradicate.


However, I'm also of the view that Chaos is destructive because we as a species see these emotions and drives as destructive, and so the Warp has come to reflect those views, which only serves to further entrench the belief. We can never admit to ourselves that deep down, we're all capable of these "inhuman" acts, that only "monsters" could do such things. The Chaos Gods are daemons because we demonise ourselves.
Compare this to the Eldar, who accepted that there is darkness within each and every one of them. They didn't lie to themselves that each of them was a potential murderer, and as such the emotions and drives lacked that negative stigma. As a result, they formed gods like Khaine, who while still a horrific bloodthirsty god, was also the great defender of the Eldar race, giving them the strength to survive. Morai-Heg was a Godess of knowledge, but she understood that some things, mortals were not meant to know. Lilleath was a "pleasure" godess, but was an innocent maiden, rather than the sadomasochistic aesthete that is Slaanesh. Isha was about the acceptance of death, and the cycle of life and death, whereas Nurgle represents the denial of mortality.

Simply put, Chaos is evil because we can't accept that we aren't.
This is brilliant. An excellent and fascinating interpretation of Chaos my friend, that gels nicely with my opinion that GW have actually inadvertently come up with a fantastic literary-philosophical-psychoanalytic commentary on the human condition. We are slaves to our base emotions and our tendencies to excess, self-deception and obsession, and if we allow ourselves to start sliding down those slopes the emotions will become the masters and promote their own self-perpetuation. :shifty:

Fortheempire
12-05-2013, 23:57
Seems bad outweighs good in the ol' 40k universe here. Doesn't the Emp himself have a massive Warp presence? Seem to recall it being said somewhere that he was a match for the CG themselves...

=Angel=
14-05-2013, 17:57
Compare this to the Eldar, who accepted that there is darkness within each and every one of them. They didn't lie to themselves that each of them was a potential murderer, and as such the emotions and drives lacked that negative stigma. As a result, they formed gods like Khaine, who while still a horrific bloodthirsty god, was also the great defender of the Eldar race, giving them the strength to survive. Morai-Heg was a Godess of knowledge, but she understood that some things, mortals were not meant to know. Lilleath was a "pleasure" godess, but was an innocent maiden, rather than the sadomasochistic aesthete that is Slaanesh. Isha was about the acceptance of death, and the cycle of life and death, whereas Nurgle represents the denial of mortality.

Simply put, Chaos is evil because we can't accept that we aren't.



Filthy Eldar lies.
Slaanesh is the god the eldar created. The others may simply have been old ones or even ancient eldar.
The talismans of Vaul for example , are warmachines and not daemon engines, indicating that Vaul was a weaponsmith and not a warp entity.

Simply put, if the chaos gods were made malign because humanity has morality and eldar just 'are', that doesnt explain slaanesh.
If nothing the eldar did was classed as depraved or wrong , why the god of excess?

The chaos gods were malign from the start. They were already trying to enslave humanity at lesdt during the age of strife, when the eldar were supposedly at their zenith.

I reckon theres a place for righteousness in the warp- gods of order. Whether anyone knows about them or if theyre strong enough to help is another matter.

Kebert Xela
14-05-2013, 19:51
Seems bad outweighs good in the ol' 40k universe here. Doesn't the Emp himself have a massive Warp presence? Seem to recall it being said somewhere that he was a match for the CG themselves...

I have always wondered if you could summon a greater daemon version of the emperor, he certainly has a large presence in the warp, perhaps thats where all the primarchs went. the Emp granted them his own version of Daemon Princedom and they are all hanging out in the warp waiting for Wolftime or whatever, unfortunately Dorn, Guilliman, Manus, and the Lion were left out because they went and got beaten in combat :D As for the whole chaos is good vs chaos is bad debate people have already said what i would have, the chaos gods are the extremes of emotion, the more extreme the emotion, the bigger its presence in the warp, ergo the chaos gods are all made up of those really powerful emotions with the biggest impact in the warp which is why they are the most powerful beings in the warp and most likely destroyed/ate those "good" entities that werent in some way part of the emotion they represented, (i.e. Slaanesh wrecked most of the Eldar gods, Nurgle enjoys torturing Isha)

thor2006
14-05-2013, 19:57
Explain the Eldar Gods? And why they are not evil like Chaos Gods, if all gods are made of extreme of emotion?

Loginis
14-05-2013, 20:12
Explain the Eldar Gods? And why they are not evil like Chaos Gods, if all gods are made of extreme of emotion?

Maybe not all gods were made of extreme emotions. The warp was quite calm when the Old Ones were still around, maybe they made not only the eldars, but somehow their gods too, because they could form that calm warp as they wished.
The only question is how they survived.

Saunders
14-05-2013, 20:14
Filthy Eldar lies.
Slaanesh is the god the eldar created. The others may simply have been old ones or even ancient eldar.
The talismans of Vaul for example , are warmachines and not daemon engines, indicating that Vaul was a weaponsmith and not a warp entity.

Codex Daemons states otherwise. The Eldar goddess Isha is a prisoner of Nurgle in his realm. Regarding the talismans of Vaul, it's true that they're more liable to be warmachines crafted by the Old Ones, but that doesn't necessarily preclude the existence of Vaul and the rest of the Eldar pantheon. After all, the Eldar still have avatars of Khaine and they certainly resonate with eldar bloodlust. It's also evident that they're remnants of the Fall, being that they lay at the heart of every craftworld.

Kebert Xela
14-05-2013, 20:43
Explain the Eldar Gods? And why they are not evil like Chaos Gods, if all gods are made of extreme of emotion?

you dont need extreme emotions to form a god in the warp but the most powerful gods are those made up of emotional extremes, hence Chaos gods>Eldar gods

thor2006
14-05-2013, 20:44
Maybe not all gods were made of extreme emotions. The warp was quite calm when the Old Ones were still around, maybe they made not only the eldars, but somehow their gods too, because they could form that calm warp as they wished.
The only question is how they survived.

So maybe other Gods can exist like the Eldar ones ,that are not evil like Chaos. Because they don't need to feed with extreme of emotion or behave like Chaos Gods do, to exist or be relevant.


Codex Daemons states otherwise. The Eldar goddess Isha is a prisoner of Nurgle in his realm. Regarding the talismans of Vaul, it's true that they're more liable to be warmachines crafted by the Old Ones, but that doesn't necessarily preclude the existence of Vaul and the rest of the Eldar pantheon. After all, the Eldar still have avatars of Khaine and they certainly resonate with eldar bloodlust. It's also evident that they're remnants of the Fall, being that they lay at the heart of every craftworld.

You said that eldar created their gods as benevolent, because they are at peace with their own nature while the humans not trusting and accepting their own dark nature can only feed or create malevolent gods.
If the eldar created their gods while being in peace with their own dark nature, why they created Slaneesh? It is not like the eldar in their excess during their fall rejected in mass their behaviour as evil. So why create a Chaos God while with your theory it would result with a rather benevolent god.

Kebert Xela
14-05-2013, 20:50
You said that eldar created their gods as benevolent, because they are at peace with their own nature while the humans not trusting and accepting their own dark nature can only feed or create malevolent gods.
If the eldar created their gods while being in peace with their own dark nature, why they created Slaneesh? It is not like the eldar in their excess during their fall rejected in mass their behaviour as evil. So why create a Chaos God while with your theory it would result with a rather benevolent god.

Slaanesh was an accident created in a golden age of excess, the Eldar purposely created their own gods in the warp with the intent to battle the necrons/c'tan, (other rumours have the eldar gods as old ones),

thor2006
14-05-2013, 21:03
you dont need extreme emotions to form a god in the warp but the most powerful gods are those made up of emotional extremes, hence Chaos gods>Eldar gods

It seems that for 60 million years the Eldar Gods did a good job, keeping Chaos from touching the Eldar Empire and causing the same problems as they cause to the IOM. So that is for a bunch of weaklings that were weaker than Chaos.
Also no one would tell that another pair of Warp Gods are weaker than Chaos, created from other things than extreme of emotion. They are called Gork and Mork. So I don't think the Eldar Gods/Gork & Mork are less powerful than Chaos.
The Eldar Empire fell not because of machination of the existing Chaos Gods at the time , but because they collectivly decided to commit suicide in an orgy of excess.

thor2006
14-05-2013, 21:10
Slaanesh was an accident created in a golden age of excess, the Eldar purposely created their own gods in the warp with the intent to battle the necrons/c'tan, (other rumours have the eldar gods as old ones),

So the only difference is that relativly benevolent gods need to be created with intent and a strong individual focus that would take over and become the personality of the new god.
If the only difference of creating a warp god from a chaos god is purpose and intent then any other specie capable of psykers can create a benevolent warp god with clear intent and focus after several (tens)thousand years.

Kebert Xela
14-05-2013, 21:28
honestly im not sure if the Eldar gods actively defended the Eldar from chaos, never read anything about it, I always assumed that the chaos gods left the eldar alone because they knew it would lead to slaanesh who not only destroyed most of the Eldar gods by himself but is considered the weakest of the chaos gods so yeah i would still say chaos>eldar gods, also the orks were made by the old ones to be resistant to the negative influence of chaos and as a result ended up creating their own gods rather than feeding the chaos ones, honestly im not even sure what gork and mork do beside fire up greenskins but given that they are fed by just greenskins while chaos is fed by every other race in the galaxy (tau/tyranids/necrons being the obvious exceptions) i would still pick them over the ork gods, though when it comes to the orks who the hell knows what they are capable of

thor2006
14-05-2013, 21:41
honestly im not sure if the Eldar gods actively defended the Eldar from chaos, never read anything about it, I always assumed that the chaos gods left the eldar alone because they knew it would lead to slaanesh who not only destroyed most of the Eldar gods by himself but is considered the weakest of the chaos gods so yeah i would still say chaos>eldar gods, also the orks were made by the old ones to be resistant to the negative influence of chaos and as a result ended up creating their own gods rather than feeding the chaos ones, honestly im not even sure what gork and mork do beside fire up greenskins but given that they are fed by just greenskins while chaos is fed by every other race in the galaxy (tau/tyranids/necrons being the obvious exceptions) i would still pick them over the ork gods, though when it comes to the orks who the hell knows what they are capable of
1.But Chaos Gods are not passive. 60 million of what the eldar existed and 1 million when the Eldar Empire were more hegemonic in the Galaxy than IOM anyday is huge ammount of time to wait. So the fluff doesn't give the Eldar Empire any problems with Chaos Gods. While the eldar are prime material to corupt. So the Chaos Gods would try to goble the Eldar if they could. So I stand on my idea that the Eldar Gods stopped the 3 Chaos Gods from corupting or eating the Eldar.
Chaos is also not known for sharing. So waiting 60 million years for another rival to be born that will eat those tasty morsels that are the eldar, while they could eat the eldar is absurd.The only reason Chaos didn't bother the Eldar is because the Eldar Gods prevented Chaos from screwing with the Eldar Empire.
2. Considering that orks outnumber anyone, outside nids, combined in terms of population and that orks are powerfull psykers and they had the same gods for a long time (like since the war in heaven) and the fact that orks emissions go only to Gork and Mork I doubt that Gork and Mork are less powerful than Chaos.

Fortheempire
15-05-2013, 02:19
Strangely enough, do Gork and Mork have a place in the Warp? And can an Ork itself go Chaos? I'd love to see a massive Ork Waaaaggh invade the EOC and open up a six pack of whup ass on the Chaos Gods haha

The Warmaster
15-05-2013, 14:12
any one remeber malel? not sure of the spelling he was the god of chaos and tried to kill the other chaos gods


Malal
I think the eqvivalents(sp) in fantasy nowadays are Belakor and in 40k Ahriman.

Malal actually made a comeback recently in one of the [pluralised noun] of the Space Marines anthologies - he just got rebranded as Malice (worshipped by - appropriately enough - the Sons of Malice Chaos Marines), which I'm guessing was enough to work around the supposed legal issues surrounding his usage and ownership. Apart from the name change, he's pretty much the same thing as before, as far as anyone can tell.

Kebert Xela
15-05-2013, 15:22
1.But Chaos Gods are not passive. 60 million of what the eldar existed and 1 million when the Eldar Empire were more hegemonic in the Galaxy than IOM anyday is huge ammount of time to wait. So the fluff doesn't give the Eldar Empire any problems with Chaos Gods. While the eldar are prime material to corupt. So the Chaos Gods would try to goble the Eldar if they could. So I stand on my idea that the Eldar Gods stopped the 3 Chaos Gods from corupting or eating the Eldar.
Chaos is also not known for sharing. So waiting 60 million years for another rival to be born that will eat those tasty morsels that are the eldar, while they could eat the eldar is absurd.The only reason Chaos didn't bother the Eldar is because the Eldar Gods prevented Chaos from screwing with the Eldar Empire.
2. Considering that orks outnumber anyone, outside nids, combined in terms of population and that orks are powerfull psykers and they had the same gods for a long time (like since the war in heaven) and the fact that orks emissions go only to Gork and Mork I doubt that Gork and Mork are less powerful than Chaos.

1. There is no such thing as time in the warp so in many ways slaanesh has always existed just as he was never there meaning that their souls may have always been claimed by slaanesh making it impossible for the other gods to feed on the eldar, and as for the eldar gods vs chaos i stand by my earlier statement until i see proof otherwise so we will just have to agree to disagree

2. yes the orks certainly have numbers but again there is no such thing as time in the warp so the longevity of the race isnt really important, and while i cant definitively say chaos>orks gods since there is no evidence to support it, i would think if gork and more could take on the chaos gods and given the nature of orks a story would exist along the lines of gork knocking khorne off his chair and brawling with him while mork drops a cosmic duece on the skull thone before the 2 leave to go and find someone else to fight

Felwether
15-05-2013, 15:33
Time does exist in the warp. It just flows differently, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, sometimes backwards and sometimes not at all.

thor2006
15-05-2013, 17:01
1. There is no such thing as time in the warp so in many ways slaanesh has always existed just as he was never there meaning that their souls may have always been claimed by slaanesh making it impossible for the other gods to feed on the eldar, and as for the eldar gods vs chaos i stand by my earlier statement until i see proof otherwise so we will just have to agree to disagree

2. yes the orks certainly have numbers but again there is no such thing as time in the warp so the longevity of the race isnt really important, and while i cant definitively say chaos>orks gods since there is no evidence to support it, i would think if gork and more could take on the chaos gods and given the nature of orks a story would exist along the lines of gork knocking khorne off his chair and brawling with him while mork drops a cosmic duece on the skull thone before the 2 leave to go and find someone else to fight

1.If time doesn't exist in the warp and Slaneesh existed for eternity and can clain eldar souls before the fall, why the god never caused trouble to the eldar and eldar afterlife until the fall? Why the eldar being supreme psykers didn't realize for 60 million years a monster has claimed their souls after death and didn't take the post fall aproach to preservetion of eldar souls after death( The soul matrix or DE path)?
2.Also why Slaneesh ,as we know is gunning hard for eldar souls, didn't snuff the eldar from existance, before the eldar Empire fall? Because Slaneesh couldn't interact with the eldar and their souls before the fall.
3.The Gods may exist in eternity but can interact with mortals and their souls from the moment of their birth to the moment of their death. This is a logical conclusion , and the rest of the chaos gods had plenty of opurtunity to snuff free eldar souls, or mess with the eldar empire, without the interference of Slaneesh, before their empire fall.

Tastyfish
16-05-2013, 12:08
Two explanations, sort of linked:

Without time, things can happen and unhappen constantly - so a contradiction is impossible. Slaanesh can both claim and not claim souls dedicated to him simultaneously.

Time does exist in the material world, and in the warp as a concept brought there by material beings. A concept of time and causality is as strong as a ritual wards against certain attacks, as in order to interact with a soul that holds this as pretty fundamental to the way the world works, you've got to interact with 'time' and obey it's rules. If you don't, the soul is just as "indigestible" as one sworn to another God. Slaanesh may have been there 'at the beginning and at the end', but there's a few bits in the middle where things get a bit shaky and the whole definition of 'being' starts to break down if you want to go looking for evidence of existence, based on the interactions of others.

raygunsand rocketeers
20-05-2013, 22:07
Yes....... there is a place in the warp whereupon one is bombarded with gladtidings,
rainbow wishes, and candied dreams.......
It is a bizzare world...... but it also has its good 'deamons'......

Imagine a multicolored world, quite like willy-wonkas cholocate factory....
and helpful deamons the likes of the oompah-loompahs......

their god is called 'the Dream Maker'
and any that dont follow the rules, arent happy, or that fidget with objects
is discarded because they arent 'good enough' for the Dream Maker.....

........

the real truth is that MALAL IS the 'Dream Maker', and SQUATS are the oompah-loompahs.....
and thats why GW wont release details about the 'good warp'

Anima
21-05-2013, 13:25
Well the sixth edition rule book says that the four Chaos Gods are the most powerful and dangerous entities in the Warp. So take that Gork and Mork. :p

Istlod
21-05-2013, 17:13
Well the sixth edition rule book says that the four Chaos Gods are the most powerful and dangerous entities in the Warp. So take that Gork and Mork. :p

Hah! Take THAT ya green pieces o' ****!

Chaospling
21-05-2013, 20:05
Strangely enough, do Gork and Mork have a place in the Warp? And can an Ork itself go Chaos? I'd love to see a massive Ork Waaaaggh invade the EOC and open up a six pack of whup ass on the Chaos Gods haha

Well... They could try... but they would fail... ;)

gwarsh41
22-05-2013, 16:00
Nurgle, for example, is the god of despair and decay, but he's also the god of hope.



I think you are mistaken.

Nurgle is the god of despair and hopelessness, which go hand in hand. A warrior will not despair on the battlefield when faced with an opponent, but give him a fatal crippling pox pox and he will weep his days away. Being the god of hope is counter intuitive to himself. Tzeentch however, is the god of ambition and hope, which fit well and are both opposites of Nurgle, hence why they are enemies.

It is also why Tzeentch followers always seem to be some sort of scholar. They have such great ambition, and such high hopes to restore this and solve that, when tempted with the power of tzeentch, to give them that edge over their competition, to find that relic, to solve the problem, they take it without hesitation as their ambition is so strong.

It is easy to think Nurgle has a happiness or hope to him, as he is the "happy" chaos god. He is always smiling, as are his daemons, he bestows gifts as a father would on christmas.



Strangely enough, do Gork and Mork have a place in the Warp? And can an Ork itself go Chaos? I'd love to see a massive Ork Waaaaggh invade the EOC and open up a six pack of whup ass on the Chaos Gods haha

For all we know there is an impossibly huge WAAAAGGH in the warp and the next big FW thing will be the orks coming out, tainted and changed by the warp. Remember the warp is strange, you cant just step in and step out, during the few seconds you are in, thousands of years could pass.