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la_roche
01-11-2005, 18:18
La_roche again, so many really good questions come up at the tables here that I feel the need to get others oppinions on them. If you can, site where you get your answers from please do. Thanks again for helping a gamer out.

For shooting purposes and also for LOS purposes, can you see cavalry over infantry? I mean, on level ground can you see a unit of cavalry that is behind a "screening" unit of infantry? If so is this the same for chariots/ogre-sized models?

Redirecting charges, if someone could just give some of the nescessities for doing this that would be great. Specifically, can you redirect to a unit you could have charged originally? For instance, if there was a mage in front of a unit and you could have charged the unit though wheeling or w/e but choose to go for the mage, the mage runs, can you redirect to the unit?

Does the champion of a unit have to be the last model standing in the unit, ie if there is only one model left, does it HAVE to be the champion?

Lastly a quicky on magic:
Somewhere in my mind echoes something about second sign not being able to prevent a miscast, is this so?

Thanks again, La_roche

Festus
01-11-2005, 18:32
Hi

For shooting purposes and also for LOS purposes, can you see cavalry over infantry? I mean, on level ground can you see a unit of cavalry that is behind a "screening" unit of infantry? If so is this the same for chariots/ogre-sized models?
Troops block LoS to other troops behind.
The only exceptions are:
1. small troops, who don't block LoS,
2. Large Targets, who cannot be LoS-blocked, and
3. If you are on an elevation, you can see over other troops below.



Redirecting charges, if someone could just give some of the nescessities for doing this that would be great. Specifically, can you redirect to a unit you could have charged originally? For instance, if there was a mage in front of a unit and you could have charged the unit though wheeling or w/e but choose to go for the mage, the mage runs, can you redirect to the unit?

No, in this instance:
The target must be *newly revealed*, ie. you mustn't be able to charge it before the other unit runs away.
Note that you could be able to see the second target, you just needed to be not able to charge it in the first place for a legal redirect.




Does the champion of a unit have to be the last model standing in the unit, ie if there is only one model left, does it HAVE to be the champion?

No, you can choose freely. You can remove the Standard or Musician as well...
This holds true even with Champions with a different profile from their unit: They are R'n'F members and as such can satisfy combat losses.


Somewhere in my mind echoes something about second sign not being able to prevent a miscast, is this so?
Right. The rules must explicitly state for a reroll to be able to prevent a miscast.

And I am much too lazy to look it all up for you... :(

Greetings
Festus

Porksta
01-11-2005, 18:34
On level ground, you can only see large targets behind other units.

For the redirecting, see the Online FAQ, at the top of the page where it says "READ THIS"

The last man in the unit MUST be the champion, unless he was targeted out.

Second Sign cannot stop a miscast. Look in the rulebook where it says that you cannot stop a miscast.

Festus
01-11-2005, 20:28
Hi


The last man in the unit MUST be the champion, unless he was targeted out.
Definitely untrue:
YOu can kill yor own champion off with the first casualty to be taken by rank and file, if you so desire (wich you probably won't, but anyway).

Champions are only characters in the few ways described in the rules, basically they are just R'n'F with a slightly different profile and sometimes different equipment options.

Greetings
FEstus

edit: and you forgot the small units (ie. those with the small special rule, Nurglings et al.)

Porksta
01-11-2005, 20:47
Champions are not characters, it says that in the rulebook.

The FAQ states that even if you kill off the front rank, the champion still lives. This is unless all the models in the unit are killed.

EDIT: yeah, I did forget Small units, I couldn't think of any others besides Jungle Swarms.

Flypaper
02-11-2005, 05:01
Is there an actual rulebook quote which backs up the redirection rule? I mean, in addition to being moronic, it's featured prominently in every rule-abuse trick I've ever seen... And it'd be nice to know that GW didn't just over-interpret their own use of the word "revealed", 'cause we all know that overinterpreting poorly-worded Warhammer rules is one step short of madness. ;)

(I do have the BRB, but refuse to simply dive into it for rules clarifications until someone devises a decent index or at least a functioning divining rod! The number of times I've failed to find rules on something only for them to show up later in, say, the appendix on recreating historical sieges is mind-blowing for a comercially released premium-priced publication!)

Rational explanations on why the rule more accurately represents field tactics and/or adds to the fun of the game are also welcome. :)

Festus
02-11-2005, 05:09
Hi

Champions are not characters, it says that in the rulebook.

The FAQ states that even if you kill off the front rank, the champion still lives. This is unless all the models in the unit are killed.
You are right of course, we are not disagreeing here.

But you CAN still use your champion to die and satisfy combat losses whenever you so please.
It is just that you don't HAVE TO remove him if the enemy didn't either target him specifically or he is the last of the R'n'F to be removed.

Greetings
Festus

Festus
02-11-2005, 05:17
Hi

Is there an actual rulebook quote which backs up the redirection rule?
Try this one:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/faq/assets/warhammer-faq.pdf

1st page (112), first column, 1st question on movement (3rd question total)

Festus

Flypaper
02-11-2005, 09:42
@ Festus: I've seen the FAQ, thanks - it's just that I've never managed to figure out how they extrapolated that answer out of the BRB in the first place! :confused:

Festus
02-11-2005, 15:16
Hi

It is in the words: *newly revealed target*

That means that the target must be revealed, ie. available for a charge, by the process of the other unit fleeing.

Greetings
Festus

Flypaper
03-11-2005, 02:17
It is in the words: *newly revealed target*
That means that the target must be revealed, ie. available for a charge, by the process of the other unit fleeing.


So, in short -


And it'd be nice to know that GW didn't just over-interpret their own use of the word "revealed", 'cause we all know that overinterpreting poorly-worded Warhammer rules is one step short of madness.

Sorry, Festus - not trying to be obdurate; just expressing some omnidirectional annoyance. ;)

Festus
03-11-2005, 12:11
Hi

not trying to be obdurate; just expressing some omnidirectional annoyance. ;)

Nice... impressive...

Was it very hard to type with a Dictionary AND a Thesaurus between your eyes? :D

Greetings
FEstus

Flypaper
04-11-2005, 04:50
Hey! Me am, like, a good talking-type person! :p

It was a genuinely, carefully crafted, accurate expression of my feelings at the time! Honest! :cries: ;)

NakedFisherman
04-11-2005, 05:34
You cannot choose to remove the standard or musician of a unit. They are unit upgrades, not individual models. Hence, in the absense of a champion it will always be the standard who dies last as he must be centered in the unit (and units without ranks remove casualties equally from each side).

Frontages of 4, 6, 8, etc. may have the musician as the last model in the unit as there is no one centered model.

Festus
04-11-2005, 08:04
Hi

Sorry, but this is untrue, I am afraid.

You can always choose to eliminate the standard or the musician or the champion of your own unit to satisfy losses. Nothing is stopping you, go ahead...

...although there are NO reasons to do so ever.

So you usually only remove one of the command if forced to do so.

Greetings
Festus

Atrahasis
04-11-2005, 10:01
...although there are NO reasons to do so ever.

If you're pretty certain that the unit is doomed, then removing the standard bearer will deny the opponent 100VPs, provided you do it soon enough.

Festus
04-11-2005, 11:52
Hi

Right, but then you will have to do it at least one turn early, thus denying you the Standard CR bonus for at least two turns.

Not the most clever of all ideas under the sun in my book.

Should you remove the standard in the turn you lose and break, the enemy gets the standard and the VP nonetheless...

Greetings
FEstus

NakedFisherman
04-11-2005, 15:10
Standard and musician are unit upgrades, not individual models. Where is the rule that says you can choose to remove them as casualties?

Atrahasis
04-11-2005, 15:46
Standard and musician are unit upgrades, not individual models. Where is the rule that says you can choose to remove them as casualties?

"The player can always remove an ordinary warrior in preference to a Standard Bearer" BRB pp108

"The player does not have to remove musicians but can substitute an ordinary model instead" BRB pp109

Note that the rules say can and not must.

I can, as the controlling player, choose to remove a normal model in place of a standard bearer or musician, but it is entirely my choice.

Festus
04-11-2005, 16:00
Hi

Thank you for the quote Atrahasis.

And to NakedFisherman:
Musician, Standard and Champion are not upgrades to the unit, but to certain models within the unit:

It goes like:


upgrade one model/warrior/Orc/whatever to a standard bearer for X cost.

Festus

NakedFisherman
04-11-2005, 17:24
"The player can always remove an ordinary warrior in preference to a Standard Bearer" BRB pp108

"The player does not have to remove musicians but can substitute an ordinary model instead" BRB pp109

Note that the rules say can and not must.

I can, as the controlling player, choose to remove a normal model in place of a standard bearer or musician, but it is entirely my choice.

Yes, but the sentence before that states 'Standard Bearers are not normally removed as casualties, as it is assumed that if the standard bearer were killed another warrior would pick up the banner and take his place.'

The use of the word 'can' in this instance doesn't seem to portray an option, but rather what a player should do since Standard Bearers cannot be targeted. A sentence that reads 'the owning player MUST remove...' would appear entirely awkward.

As for removing standards as casualties to deny opponents victory points -- I disagree with that as well. If a unit is fighting a close combat and breaks the other unit, I think the standard simply had to be there at the start of the combat for it to be captured. Nowhere in the rules does it say a standard bearer model must be present on the exact turn before a unit breaks from close combat for it to be captured. Surely a dead standard bearer is very easy to capture a standard from. Not to mention it would be very frowned upon for standards in units to notoriously take blows for their mates when Chosen Chaos Knights of Khorne hit their ranks.

In terms of the 'unit upgrade' or 'model upgrade', it's a bit iffy there too. The BRB often makes reference to the unit's standard (possibly for ease) as opposed to the standard bearer model. I've also read before that they are treated as unit upgrades, although I am not sure where I read that at. It's therefore assumed we treat the Standard Bearer as a separate model in the unit that cannot be targeted by enemy attacks but does count as a casualty when models from the front rank are slain.

Festus
04-11-2005, 17:49
Hi

Surely a dead standard bearer is very easy to capture a standard from.

Even in the middle of a fierce h-t-h combat, while you defend your own life?:rolleyes:


Not to mention it would be very frowned upon for standards in units to notoriously take blows for their mates when Chosen Chaos Knights of Khorne hit their ranks.
And take the only margin of a chance of still winning against those Knights?:confused: You'd better not.

la_roche
04-11-2005, 19:38
Well, thanks everyone for all of this info. I love reading the debate. I have to say that this rules forum is infinitly more helpful than librarium-online's

- la_roche

NakedFisherman
05-11-2005, 06:39
Hi


Even in the middle of a fierce h-t-h combat, while you defend your own life?:rolleyes:

No, at the end when you break an enemy unit and begin chasing them down. :p


And take the only margin of a chance of still winning against those Knights?:confused: You'd better not.[/QUOTE]

A lot of times you can simply see where the combat's going to end up.

neXus6
05-11-2005, 07:23
Of late I've been hearing from players in my area that the Standard is always the last man standing from a unit.
I've not got round to checking it myself yet but I've seen no practical benefit for them to be lying.

From a "realistic"/hystorical point of view it is not unheard of for there to be amazing acts of bravery to keep the standard flying.

Festus
05-11-2005, 10:53
Hi

And take the only margin of a chance of still winning against those Knights?:confused: You'd better not.

A lot of times you can simply see where the combat's going to end up.
If you remove the standard bearer on the turn you break (or are wiped out entirely), this won't help a bit in preventing the capture:

It is 100VP to your oponent.

In such cases it is irrelevant whether you kill the standard off or not.

YOu can possibly prevent the 100VP loss in earlier turn(s), but then you will have no standard for at least one CR calculation where you didn't break.

If you are charged and break in the same turn, it matters not whether or not the standard bearer dies: YOu lose the standard AN 100VP to you oponent.
But if you don't break on the first turn and already killed off your standard voluntarily, you set yourself at a deliberate disadvantage for all remaining rounds of fighting.
Why on earth would you want to do that?

Greetings
Festus

Porksta
05-11-2005, 12:56
The command are always the last models left in a unit.

Wintersdark
05-11-2005, 13:05
The command are always the last models left in a unit.This is how it works out, but isn't actually how it has to be. All *can* be removed as casualties if the controlling player so desires.... but there's no reason to do so.

Attempting VP denial? Well, honestly, I've always given opponents VP's for standards no matter when the standard bearer fell.

I think it's a pretty cheesy rules abuse to say that your opponent can't get VP's for your BSB's standard because he died in the turn before you broke.

Thus, if you give the bonus vp's for standard capture regardless of when the standard bearer died, then it's a moot point. Removing the standard bearer early doesn't give you any advantage at all.

Actually, even considering removing him to save the VP's early deserves a smack IMHO. That's not a tactic, that's just looking for an exploitable rules loophole.

NakedFisherman
05-11-2005, 15:02
Actually, even considering removing him to save the VP's early deserves a smack IMHO. That's not a tactic, that's just looking for an exploitable rules loophole.

Agreed.

By the way, Festus -- since standards are calculated at the end of a combat, the logic that removing one as a casualty doesn't deny the opponent of VPs doesn't work. Anyone trying to remove standards before inevitable broken units get pursued is just being lame, anyway.

WLBjork
05-11-2005, 15:02
The command are always the last models left in a unit.

Not true.

Champions:

Can fight in a Challenge
Can use the "Look Out Sir" rule
Can be targetted in Close Combat
Are otherwise another member of their unit.

As a result, should the front rank be wiped out, then the Champion is dead unless in a challenge.

Atrahasis
05-11-2005, 15:49
Actually, even considering removing him to save the VP's early deserves a smack IMHO. That's not a tactic, that's just looking for an exploitable rules loophole.

The rules say what the rule say. Your moralising on the subject (even threatening violence over a game) is moot.

What makes your rationalisation better than mine?


As a result, should the front rank be wiped out, then the Champion is dead unless in a challenge.

Nope. A champion will only die if he is either targetted specifically or enough wounds are dealt to wipe out the entire unit.

mageith
05-11-2005, 15:49
Is there an actual rulebook quote which backs up the redirection rule?
...
Rational explanations on why the rule more accurately represents field tactics and/or adds to the fun of the game are also welcome. :)
You've already received the official rule and it's official interpretation.

I don't think the rule reflects any sort of reality or field tactics whatsover. I don't think it really adds to the fun either. However it does create a somewhat level playing field as long as every understands the rules the same way.

Gav has promised that the rules for charging would be looked at as part of the next edition of the BRB. On Dakka Dakka, he wrote some explanations of how certain charge situations should work according to his interpretations of the rules he inherited but since they weren't official they were universally ignored in favor of the gobbly gook that has arisen. Last time I looked, though, Dakka Dakka had crashed. Those thoughts are now lost (except in my archives) but the discussion is lost. I didn't save that.

Mage Ith

Festus
05-11-2005, 16:26
Hi

By the way, Festus -- since standards are calculated at the end of a combat, the logic that removing one as a casualty doesn't deny the opponent of VPs doesn't work. Anyone trying to remove standards before inevitable broken units get pursued is just being lame, anyway.
First: Don't try to attack me - even remotely - if and because I tell you the rules. That's all there is to it, may it be lame or whatever in your book.
Just because I tell what the rules are doesn't mean I do it that way.

Second: noone disagreed that you get your precious VP if the standard bearer dies in the turn the unit breaks.

Third:If the standard bearer died earlier, there is no standard left to be captured, thus no VP. (What if the Standard died in the first turn and you are fighting in the third? Still gain VP?)



Actually, even considering removing him to save the VP's early deserves a smack IMHO. That's not a tactic, that's just looking for an exploitable rules loophole.

Noone in his right mind would remove the standardbearer early. IMNSHO there still is no use in doing it.
If the unit is totally doomed or outclassed, it will break on the first turn of combat anyways...
...or as I already said:

You can always choose to eliminate the standard or the musician or the champion of your own unit to satisfy losses ..although there are NO reasons to do so ever.

Greetings
FEstus

Wintersdark
05-11-2005, 20:16
Third:If the standard bearer died earlier, there is no standard left to be captured, thus no VP. (What if the Standard died in the first turn and you are fighting in the third? Still gain VP?)
I believe so, yes. The standard doesn't cease to exist because it's bearer died earlier. You no longer gain any benefit from it (as it's not being hoisted anymore), but it still exists. So, yes, you'd still gain VP.

Hence why, I said, I always give opponents VP's for my standards, even if - in the BSB situation - the bearer died a turn or two before the unit breaks, so long as it does break in the combat the bearer died in.

Wintersdark
05-11-2005, 20:20
The rules say what the rule say. Your moralising on the subject (even threatening violence over a game) is moot.No, my moralising is certainly not moot. People who stick to the rules exactly as they are written and exploit every loop hole they can are, quite frankly, damaging to the game as a whole. It's bad sportsmanship. Chariot clipping is no different, having just one corner of your chariot hit a unit simply to only allow one model to strike back. It's technically legal but obviously wrong.

Threatening physical violence? Oh my god, give me a break. It was a figure of speech, and you know it. Don't be a dolt.



What makes your rationalisation better than mine?Mine being based on good sportsmanship, rather than the exploitation of rules loopholes to gain a benefit.

Festus
06-11-2005, 07:51
Hi

Mine being based on good sportsmanship, rather than the exploitation of rules loopholes to gain a benefit.
Your *good sportsmanship* might be something different entirely from my *good sportsmanship* or others *good sportsmanship*.

We probably both have some house-rules (different or similar) within our groups to make the game more *realistic*, better adapted at the various armies or just plain more fun to us.

Here, the rules should be discussed, not the house-rules you or I play to make the game better in regards to our personal tastes.

I still stand by my BRB, which lets me kill of the Standard bearer early and thus *eventually* deny VP to the oponent.

But this will probably never happen in RL, because:

1st the unit will be such strongly outclassed that it breaks on the first turn anyways.
2nd if it isn't, it wont waste a valuable point of CR by killing the Standard
3rd if it is a weak combat unit anyways (like 10 missile troops or such), why equip it with a standard in the first place...?

Greetings
Festus

WLBjork
06-11-2005, 08:36
Nope. A champion will only die if he is either targetted specifically or enough wounds are dealt to wipe out the entire unit.

Not by the strict letter of the rules ;)


I have a problem with the removal of a Standard as a causalty. All regiments will have pride in their Standard - long standing formal regiments will have Battle Honours attached to them - I can' see them being meekly sacrificed.

Atrahasis
06-11-2005, 08:46
Not by the strict letter of the rules ;)Everything GW have said on the matter says so though. I agree that the rulebook does not exactly support it, but the official clarifications do. I don't agree with that method of ruls change, but I have little choice but to adhere to it.



I have a problem with the removal of a Standard as a causalty. All regiments will have pride in their Standard - long standing formal regiments will have Battle Honours attached to them - I can' see them being meekly sacrificed.

Would a unit that knows it is doomed not destroy the banner rather then see it fall into the hands of the enemy?

mageith
06-11-2005, 14:01
Would a unit that knows it is doomed not destroy the banner rather then see it fall into the hands of the enemy?

:) Can you give any incident in history that might support that? The Roman era has two cases where a legion was destroyed and their eagle banner was captured and it was a really big deal and had to be avenged.

I think a doomed unit probably wouldn't be thinking of it's banner as it's last thought, no.

I agree the rules let us do that, however, but its highly unrealistic and pretty gamey, IMO.

Mage Ith

Atrahasis
06-11-2005, 14:10
Can you give any incident in history that might support that?

Can you give any incident in history to support a magically-called comet falling on the head of my opponent's giant at just the right moment?

I understand what you're trying to say, but I can justify the destruction just as easily as you can justify the capture, and I have the benefit of the rules to support me.

Who is being more gamey?

mageith
06-11-2005, 14:20
Who is being more gamey?
You're kidding, right?

Festus
06-11-2005, 14:28
Hey, mates, keep cool :)

But TBH, I don't know of any player who plays it that way, even if this is fully within the letter of the rules.

If I equip a unit with a standard, I do so on purpose (to gain +1CR usually ;) ) and then I stick with it.

Greetings
Festus

Wintersdark
06-11-2005, 14:44
*points at Festus' sig quote*

That's what's going on, if your actually trying to remove a standard early in order to prevent it's capture.

It's a rules loophole at best, even if it is strictly legal. I still fail to see how it in any way differs from such things as chariot clipping.

Festus
06-11-2005, 14:54
Hi

When do you remove your standard then?

As a situation: Your unit of Chaos Knights is stuck in a tarpit-unit, and is now down to 3 models. An enemy unit threatens your flank.
In this situation, the enemy manages to kill another Knight of your's.
Who is going to die?
The Musician, the Champion or the Standard?

Answers in the spoilers below

The decision is between the Champion and the Musician: The Champion can possibly gain another kill and thus +1CR, the Musician will allow the unit to hold in a draw. The standard willl surely live, as this is a safe +1CR, and you cannot lose ranks by the flanking unit.
Should the unit be Chosen Knights, the Musician will die.

Greetings
Festus

Tarax
06-11-2005, 15:16
The spoilers couldn't be read unless selected.

But as you say it's up to the Champion or Musician, you're incorrect. You are free to choose between the three of them.

You're reasoning is correct though, but you could add that by removing the Standard Bearer, you're hoping you will stay in combat and deny your opponent from capturing your standard, and thus denying him 100 VP.

I once did in a game, lost by a lot, down to 2 models (I did remove my SB and was left with Ch and M), and passed my Break Test. Hooray!!!

Festus
06-11-2005, 15:23
Hi

The spoilers couldn't be read unless selected.This was intentional, as the spoiler-tags obviously do not work here...



But as you say it's up to the Champion or Musician, you're incorrect. You are free to choose between the three of them.

Yes, ruleswise you are free, I spoke tacticswise: The decent decision is to *not* take away the standard...

Greetings
Festus