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View Full Version : Which book does BoC use for its Tzeentch magic?



Kalec
31-07-2008, 17:25
Question is simple: which lore of tzeentch do I use: the lore in hordes of chaos, or in daemons of chaos? The FAQ answers questions relating to the hordes of chaos tzeentch lore, but the daemons of chaos book is newer.

Atrahasis
31-07-2008, 17:39
The Beasts of Chaos book.

T10
31-07-2008, 17:39
You use the one in the book.

Imagine, if you will, a player that owns only a single army book: The Beasts of Chaos. Which book is he likely to reference for the Lore of Tzeentch?

-T10

Loopstah
31-07-2008, 17:47
Beasts use the Lores in the Beasts of Chaos book.

Although as per the FAQ if you create a unit of Horrors using Indigo Fire they use the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch from the Daemon book.:wtf:

txamil
31-07-2008, 21:16
Beasts use the Lores in the Beasts of Chaos book.

Although as per the FAQ if you create a unit of Horrors using Indigo Fire they use the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch from the Daemon book.:wtf:

lol I was so exctied about Tzanagors I never noticed that. Is there a combo here (assuming you even get it off, and assuming the horros somehow survive)?

Loopstah
31-07-2008, 22:13
lol I was so exctied about Tzanagors I never noticed that. Is there a combo here (assuming you even get it off, and assuming the horros somehow survive)?


Imagine casting it on a big block of 50 Night Goblins or 30 Skaven Slaves or another huge low T unit with little or no save.

You get a Horror per kill and could soon end up with a large unit of ItP, Fear causing, ward saved, magical Flaming attack infantry that is also a lvl 2 wizard. :D

They are pretty much identical in stats to a Tzaangor with a shed load of bonuses.

You only need 5 for a lvl 1 wizard and casting it on a unit of 30+ is sure to get results.

EDIT: Thinking about it why would you even want to use Tzaangors instead of Horrors, Horrors are a much better choice.

DarkTerror
31-07-2008, 22:38
Identical in stats to a Tzaangor? You mean the horrors with stats of a human?

Loopstah
01-08-2008, 10:07
Identical in stats to a Tzaangor? You mean the horrors with stats of a human?

"pretty much identical", there's a point less here and there, but nothing drastic. Taking in all the benefits a Horror has over a Tzaangor I would say there's no contest. I'd happily lose a point of Str and T for the bonuses.

Atrahasis
01-08-2008, 10:32
EDIT: Thinking about it why would you even want to use Tzaangors instead of Horrors, Horrors are a much better choice.Because Beasts have no access to Horrors?

Loopstah
01-08-2008, 10:37
Because Beasts have no access to Horrors?

They do if you cast Indigo Fire on a big juicy unit of low T, no save troops. :D

Q: The Tzeentch spell Indigo Fire creates Horrors, what are they and where can their rules be found?

A: The caster may decided to either use Pink Horror models and rules from Warhammer Armies: Daemons of Chaos, or Bestigor models instead, using the rules for Tzaangors from this book (see page 54.)

Atrahasis
01-08-2008, 11:01
Ah. I forgot that there was the choice between creating Tzaangors and Horrors with the spell (probably because it is such an obvious choice).

I thought you were talking about selecting the original army.

][nquist0r
01-08-2008, 11:23
Hrmmmm Now why would i make Tzangors, over horrors.... Well
1) WS4, STR 4
2) Greatweapons w/Heavy Armor.
3) They count as charging and let me effectively try to assasinate any wizards in the front rank.
4) After they probably break if they run away far enough and rally they generate another power die... Instead of well you know *POOF*


Funny enough I cast this spell in my last game on a unit of horrors and almost killed his herald in the first turn with the tzangores. (I did 10 wounds on 30 horrors and he saved 7! So 3 Tzangors hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's got me 2 wounds. He saved 1... Bestigores kick ass.

Assuming you cast it on a block of 24 goblins you will kill 8. Say they are ranked 6 across Horrors will cause 2 wounds at best (and perhaps loose 1 model back, with a 50% chance of saving wound) and loose combat by 2-3. *POOF* Tzangors will cause 4 wounds (very slight odds of loosing model back, 33% chance of wound w/ a 33% chance of saving said wound) and draw combat/ loose by 1. Which would you rather have?

Loopstah
01-08-2008, 12:15
[nquist0r;2828473']Hrmmmm Now why would i make Tzangors, over horrors.... Well
1) WS4
2) Greatweapons w/Heavy Armor.
3) They count as charging and let me effectively try to assasinate any wizards in the front rank.
4) After they probably break if they run away far enough and rally they generate another power die.


Horrors
1) You're still mostly hitting on 4's against normal troops. Harder to wound but you don't strike last after the first round.
2) Lower Str but you get an Unmodified Ward compared to armour.
3) Still charging.
4) Don't break so you can tie up a unit for a turn or two if you're lucky. They also generate a Dispel Dice if there are more than 5.
5) Cause Fear
6) Immune to Psychology
7) Magical Flaming Attacks

I'd say they both have their uses depending on what you're fighting.

Against Undead Horrors would be much better than Tzaangors.

Against tougher troops or those with better armour then Tzaangors would be a better choice as your more likely to do some damage with them.

][nquist0r
01-08-2008, 12:46
I dunno about that either...
Best case scenario a huge unit of say 36 zombies.
You get 18 horrors or bestigors. horrors do 3 wounds, Bestigores 4. Horrors have a 33 percent chance of taking a wound on any hit they take bestigors have 18 percent. (Although a 50 pecent chance of saving vs 33 percent for Tzangors is nice...) Horrors win by 3, bestigors win by 4. The difference? More zombies cast can make me auto break (if I flail), but with zombies not being able to pursue it makes that an almost good thing vs being stuck in a tar pit for the rest of the game. In fact I think I would be amused if he cast more zombies into the fray, it would let me cast another spell for another free bestigore unit. I would save my dice for the trap group of zombies he would try to cast behind me. Benifit for Horros? Casting gift in your magic phase and maybe duff up a few of his units before they get to you.

Loopstah
01-08-2008, 13:05
You're probably right that the extra killing power of the Tzaangors makes up for the staying power of the Horrors, as the Tzaangors are less likely to lose the combat in the first place.

decker_cky
01-08-2008, 19:17
Tzaangors are almost always better, since you get a dangerous unit in the midst of enemy lines. However, against zombies, who you still hit on 3's then wound on 3's against, I'd take horrors. You have a good chance of getting a L2, which will be nice in the next turn, but more importantly, you can't be autobroken and you add a dispel die, which is helpful against the spam.

DarkTerror
01-08-2008, 20:13
Loopstah, you must be crazy. Have you ever used horrors? You think they have STAYING POWER?

Horrors are gone almost ALWAYS in the next combat unless they're against something like a war machine crew...

You also said they have nearly the same stats? They're not EVEN CLOSE as far as regular troops are concerned.

Sorry, but these posts seem braindead.

Loopstah
01-08-2008, 21:08
Loopstah, you must be crazy. Have you ever used horrors? You think they have STAYING POWER?

Horrors are gone almost ALWAYS in the next combat unless they're against something like a war machine crew...

You also said they have nearly the same stats? They're not EVEN CLOSE as far as regular troops are concerned.

Sorry, but these posts seem braindead.


Actually I haven't used Horrors, I was going on what to me looked like a decent number of advantages over Tzaangors, although I now know they are much worse in reality.

I meant staying power in the fact they don't break from combat. What I didn't take into consideration was the fact the Tzaangors would probably not be losing combat in the first place, and would also be holding up units due to them not having to take a break test in the first place.

I was also referring to creating them out of large units of rubbish troops like goblins, skaven slaves or zombies (so you get 15+). In which case I would expect them to last a turn or two and hold up a unit of troops worse than themselves. Although as stated I now realise Tzaangors would also hold them up due to being much harder, an extra Dispel dice is always helpful though.

They have 1 less WS, S and T than a Bestigor, that's almost the same in my books, although I did forget about the Great Weapons, which does make a considerable difference.

Gorbad Ironclaw
02-08-2008, 05:54
They have 1 less WS, S and T than a Bestigor, that's almost the same in my books, although I did forget about the Great Weapons, which does make a considerable difference.

:eek:
Well I suppose a Goblin is almost the same as a chaos warrior as well:angel:

The WS might make that much of a difference(but it will at times), but an additional point of S and T is huge. The stat range in Warhammer is fairly narrow and just one point of Toughness or Strength can make a huge difference.

][nquist0r
03-08-2008, 02:16
Loopstah, you must be crazy. Have you ever used horrors? You think they have STAYING POWER?

Horrors are gone almost ALWAYS in the next combat unless they're against something like a war machine crew...

You also said they have nearly the same stats? They're not EVEN CLOSE as far as regular troops are concerned.

Sorry, but these posts seem braindead.

Kinda harsh post for someone that was already eating crow dont you think? Also I have lost combat to a unit of 30 Horrors with 4 minotaurs (w/greatweapons) after I charged... Yes I rolled kind of crappy and he made a stupid amount of saves, but a 4+ ward save can make a decent anvil if your rolling is hot I guess. I hate combats where I have to beat a static R of 5 with 12 attacks.

DeathlessDraich
03-08-2008, 11:10
Just thought I would add this -

I played Daemons vs Beasts recently and there were 2 different Tzeentch lores being used - felt very strange.

][nquist0r
03-08-2008, 22:41
I did as well and he used the banner to nerf "My tzeetch lore" Seems how he was using the "Lore of Daemons." Oh well.

DeathlessDraich
04-08-2008, 09:46
Interesting situation - using Glean magic from the new lore of Tzeentch to cast a spell from the old lore of Tzeentch!