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Shield of Freedom
02-11-2005, 03:35
We had a wierd moment come up in our warhammer warband league here.

A unit of 2 ogres, one of which is a champion, is carrying 2 wounds. Under normal circumstances, causing one more wound would kill a whole Ogre. Obviously, by the way casualties are chosen, if that were to happen the champion would be the remaining Ogre with 3 wounds left to kill him.

The Ogre unit is in combat with a unit of two Empire Pistoliers of which one was a Marksman(champion). The pistolier Champion issues a challenge, the Ogre Champion accepts. With the Pistolier's Repeating pistol + hand weapon + warhorse he manages to cause 2 wounds on the Ogre.

The confusion here is (and it's only because of the multi-wound unit with a champion) who is carrying the previous wounds? Since the two champions are in combat and cannot effect the other models in thier units does causing the "fourth" wound on the unit remove the champion or the other ogre, or what? Is the Champion still alive, needing 3 wounds to kill, to strike back? Or does the first wound inflicted kill the ogre because it brings the total to 3 wounds on the unit, adding one wound as an overkill bonus? This was very important because the outcome of the challenge determined the outcome of the fight, and in the warband game, these units where almost 50% of the entire army...therefore deciding the battle.

This would normaly not be a problem, but where multi-wound models are concerned it creates confusion. Normaly, multi-wound units don't have the option for champions (before ogres only minotaurs had this problem, but since that army type is rare I've never seen this come up before).

The whole club (about 15 people) discussed this for almost an hour while the fight (and the game) remained unresolved. No one opinion could seem to outweigh the other so the two players decided to dice off.

The Empire player declared that the 1st wound caused by his champion would be the 3rd wound on the unit and kill the champion. Allowing the 2nd wound caused by his champion to be a +1 overkill bonus.

The Ogre Kingdom player declared that the champion went into the challenge "fresh" with no wounds and that only 2 wounds were scored on his Champion allowing him to strike back before resolving the challenge and the rest of the combat.

The Ogre Kingdom player won the dice-off. His champion took two wounds, struck back and killed the Empire Champion. with a +2 overkill. The other pistolier managed one wound and killed the other ogre.

Pistoliers = 3 wounds, unit strength 2
Ogres = 1 wound, +2 overkill, unit strength 3

The Ogre wins by one and chases the pistolier off the board. Ogres win.

If the Ogre champion had been dead, the Ogres would have lost and probably been run down, allowing the Empire to win.

Can anyone tell me what the right choice would have been, even if your answer is "you did it right with rolling the die" I want to hear it. If any of you from GW is reading this, please take note in your next FAQ.

la_roche
02-11-2005, 03:56
Well, I believe that in this case the champion would have to be dealt three wounds to die in the challenge (He went into the challenge "fresh"). He would always be the last model left alive in the unit unless he had previously had hits directed specifically at him, thus if there were two models left the other would have to be killed before the champion would begin recieving wounds. So the non-champion model would have the 2 wounds. That's how I see it (And Kroxigors can have champions too btw not that anyone is stupid enough to waste points on one)

Festus
02-11-2005, 06:14
Hi

la-roche is correct.

The Ogre champion is not required to be the one wounded, as in this edition of the game Wounds are allocated to units, not to specific unit members. In this regard, Champions work pretty much like characters: If you want to hurt him, you have to allocate hits against him, unless he is the last model of his unit.

So as soon as the Ogre is in a challenge, he is on his full quota of Wounds, provided he didn't specifically take damage before.

Greetings
Festus

Shield of Freedom
02-11-2005, 06:45
wow, that makes multi-wound champions quite powerful in hand-to-hand. No matter how much you shoot a unit you'll never hit the champion unless all other members are dead, so he'll always be "fresh" when facing opponents.

Thank you guys.

-YOUR Shield of Freedom

Festus
02-11-2005, 07:27
wow, that makes multi-wound champions quite powerful in hand-to-hand. No matter how much you shoot a unit you'll never hit the champion unless all other members are dead, so he'll always be "fresh" when facing opponents.

Well, all of the BigGuys are quite tough in h-t-h, if not faced by a character.

As those units are usually pitifully small, they are easily shot to death.
If necessary, marchblock them as long as it takes to shoot them.

Remember they are all quite susceptible to even small arms fire...

Greetings
Festus

Tarax
02-11-2005, 12:33
Actually, Ogre Champions can be just as much be a target for shooting.

As long as you have 5 or less Ogre models in the unit the champion can be the target by randomizing. Therefore a champion be have seperate wounds from the unit.

It even says so in the army book, p.16 under 'Notes'.

Festus
02-11-2005, 16:20
Hi

Right, by randomizing shots you can indeed hit the Champion.
But you still aim at the unit and spread the hits afterwards. A rather less than convincing method to try and put some W on the unit...

... could you please give the quote here?

I think it is against all intents and purposes of the remaining ruling to let the cahmp have its own tally of Wounds separate from the unit (This is better for the Ogre unit, not worse: They are much more resilient there, as they can absorb 2 more W before an Ogre dies!)

Greetings
Festus

Da GoBBo
02-11-2005, 19:50
... could you please give the quote here?

I think it is against all intents and purposes of the remaining ruling to let the cahmp have its own tally of Wounds separate from the unit

I disagree with you there. As you said, champions are dealt with in almost the same manner as character (the difference bein that they can't have magic items and can't leave there unit?). They can be target just like any model and since its a unique part of the unit (like a normal character) you should count wounds on an champ apart from wounds on the unit (like with normal characters).

The way you want to play it an ogre champ can actually have more then one wound. Picture this, an undamaged ogre unit, they enter cc, the champ recieves 2 wounds, the ogres inflict major damage and destroy da enemy unit. Next round, ogres charge and enter cc. During the entire battle the Ogre champ has recieved two wounds (they have specifically allocated on the champ remember). According to you, the champ can't have wounds seperate from the unit, which means you have a "fresh" champ with three wounds again and the unit has two wounds. I therefor think that a champ actually has a "woundbar" of its own.

Atrahasis
02-11-2005, 19:56
I disagree with you there. As you said, champions are dealt with in almost the same manner as character (the difference bein that they can't have magic items and can't leave there unit?). You're looking at it the wrong way round - a champion is rank and file except that he can issue and accept challenges and must be targetted separately in CC.

That said, you're right, champions with more than one wound must have wounds tracked separately.

Mad Makz
03-11-2005, 22:13
I'd agree with the ruling that champions with more than one wound must have their wounds tracked seperately. This is specifically stated as the case for Tomb King Light Chariot Champions, and as long as the unit has less than 5 rank and file these characters will be allocated hits from shooting like everybody else.

Festus
03-11-2005, 22:33
Hi

The way you want to play it an ogre champ can actually have more then one wound. Picture this, an undamaged ogre unit, they enter cc, the champ recieves 2 wounds, the ogres inflict major damage and destroy da enemy unit. Next round, ogres charge and enter cc. During the entire battle the Ogre champ has recieved two wounds (they have specifically allocated on the champ remember). According to you, the champ can't have wounds seperate from the unit, which means you have a "fresh" champ with three wounds again and the unit has two wounds. I therefor think that a champ actually has a "woundbar" of its own.
I never doubtet that. You put thing sin my post I never said by taking quotes out of their context.

In the example that started this thread, the Champ was fresh as a flower. He needed all 3 hits and wounds to die, not just one because the unit had already taken wounds.

If (and that is a big IF) the CHamp has already taken wounds, he has to keep track of them himself.

But the Wounds a unit has don't count towards the Wounds needed to kill the champ.

With shooting OTOH, (which was what the quote you made from my text referred to), you cannot simply allocate hits to the champ.
In this regard he works like a character and the shooting hits are taken by the Unit if more than 5 models, only randomised if the number drops lower...

Greetings
Festus

Tarax
04-11-2005, 12:10
... could you please give the quote here?


Like I said, page 16 under Notes, 3rd paragraph:

"Ranked units containing champions and characters will need to keep track of wounds on rank and file troops and on the champion/character seperately, as wounds are not carried over from one to the other."

I guess you don't have the book? :eyebrows:

Festus
04-11-2005, 12:55
Hi

Thanks for the quote.


I guess you don't have the book? :eyebrows:
No, I don't have the book. Why should I? I have enough superfluous GW publications littering my home without it :D

But you know, there were Ogres with champions around before the OK book, and Minotaurs, and Kroxigors, and...

Greetings
FEstus

Da GoBBo
05-11-2005, 11:30
Hi

I never doubtet that. You put things in my post I never said by taking quotes out of their context.


Hmm, I did take things out of there context because there was no need for them. There's just rules, whether a wound on the champ was inflicted by shooting, CC or magic doesn't matter for keeping track em (allthough it does matter for hitting the champ in the first place of course).
In a previous post you said: "I think it is against all intents and purposes of the remaining ruling to let the cahmp have its own tally of Wounds separate from the unit". I thought that meant that you think ye shouldn't keep track of the champions wounds seperate from the unit. Apperantly I misunderstood and therefore I abviously disagreed. The consequence was what I wrote before, which could be possible. Since it is an utterly stupid situation, it was a good way to point out the rules could never be like that. Glad we agree on that.

Tarax
06-11-2005, 15:32
No, I don't have the book. Why should I? I have enough superfluous GW publications littering my home without it :D


That's just GW policy: Litter the players with rules, so they don't see any mistakes in battle reports, made by GW staff, etc. The players would just think they themselves are wrong. :D ;)