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Hrw-Amen
01-08-2008, 19:10
A query about SM getting old. It would appear that most of the fluff implies that unless they are killed in battle then to all intents and purposes Space Marines are immortal.

However I have been reading back through old codexes and in the Ultramarines codex (2nd ed.) it clearly indicates that in amongst the HQ are some senior marines who are deamed to be past it from a front line point of view and now do things like recruitment and the like.

Also in the HH books it is clear that some of the older marines especially those that are pre unification era ones are looked upon similarly by their younger breathren. (For example Iacton.)

So whilst most marines may not make it that far anyway, how old does a marine have to be to be considered past it and what actual physical/mental effects manifest as time progresses to show that they may not be as immortal as they at first seam?

Do we think that they would go on forever if they never encountered any severe comabt or stress or will they eventually die like everyone else, just after many thousands of years rather than a few hundred?

What impact does this have on the likes of Abbadon and other 'older' chaos marines who in theory should have retired from front line fighting a long time ago and be sitting in a recruiting office somewhere in the eye of terror? OIr do the Chaos gods make sure that their own marines are better cared for than the Imperium thus enabling them to last forever?

SirSnipes
01-08-2008, 19:15
i think this should be in the fluff area?

t-tauri
01-08-2008, 19:16
Off to 40k background.

Fire Harte
01-08-2008, 19:30
Time moves slower in the Eye of terror, so the marines there will not be 10,000 years old.
I would think that the old marines would become in charge of things like recruitment and possibly become crew in Ships/Thunder Hawks.

heretics bane
01-08-2008, 19:44
Time moves slower in the Eye of terror, so the marines there will not be 10,000 years old.
I would think that the old marines would become in charge of things like recruitment and possibly become crew in Ships/Thunder Hawks.

Not exactly true,time in the EOT is irregular five minutes in there in are time could be five seconds for them or five centuries so saying they would be older or younger is impossible.

Heck im sure some of the marines are younger than they where when they went in due to time being so messed up:wtf:

The Anarchist
01-08-2008, 22:40
i would point out that Chapter Master Dante of the BA is over a thousand years old, so one of the oldest marnies we know of from actrive fluff. whilst some younger marines might see older marnies as something of an oddity its not a matter of them being obsolete. in the military we view are NCO's as older, and sometimes a bit out of date but still hard as nails, and if we say otherwise outloud we get a clip round the head for our trouble.

the OP mentioned Icaton Qurze, i think this is more a matter of differnce in purpose, Icaton is a respected memeber of his legion (thourghly trusted by Loken) but differnt. this is beacuase he was trained as a storm warrior, and probbaly there at the unification battles. he is meerly a soldier that has been from the begining so keeps some odd habbits (wrong salute, etc.) but still a professional killing machine.

as for the idea of Space Marines retiring to the recruitment office, this can be viewed in two ways. some space marines do get removed from active service when they reach a certain level of experience, but not due to age, but so they cna pass that experience on to furure troops. often in the form of vertan sergeants that we see on the table in scout units. also some Marines choose to leave the front rank (or might be forced to by chapter politics or such) and train neotypes, this is often a position for injured marines or such but many marines are human, and so may choose to train neotypes as a matter of conscience.
as for wether dying from old age, the reason humans get old is cell replication process begins getting less effeicent. in a space marine, providing he has acsess to medaci treatment there is no reason that the cell replication process will be any less effeicnt than when he first got inducted to the chapter. this however does count out warp, or chaos influence, and pre-existing mutation that passed by the chapter on induction. so barring the conditions above the space marine is in effect imune to the aging process, so wouldn't get old in any conventional way.

jsut my two cents.

MvS
01-08-2008, 23:14
The Space Marine imagery has moved on since 2nd Edition, it's as simple as that really.

Col. Tartleton
02-08-2008, 03:01
They definitely age, but the question is does it affect them. Calgar is only like 450 but he's gray haired. Space Wolves apparently age at random due to their body chemistry and the Canis Helix so some are gray haired and some aren't and its hard to tell their age.

After all, Dante wears the death mask for a reason, hes as old as dirt and the mask keeps his wrinkles out of his eyes ;)

G.I.JimmyJazz
02-08-2008, 06:11
Dante is the oldest recorded living marine (stasis and chaos not included). and he still fights on the front line leading the spear tip. it all depends on chapter and view of purpose.

ultra marines are very uppy and when they hit that mark of proving themselves they want to stay alive so they can reep the glory

blood angels and space wolves however have more of a mentality like orks, they aren't happy unless there are at the fore front of the fighting tearing the enemys of the emperor limb from limb until the day they die a glorous death in battle

Reaver83
02-08-2008, 07:07
but then iirc in codex angels of death you also had dante's scout sgt cleutin, who was also active

TheDarkDaff
02-08-2008, 08:48
Cleutin was a Veteran Sergeant when Dante was inducted into the Blood Angels scout Company and is still active. Just imagine how many service studs that guy would have. He probably wouldn't need a Helmet

Hrw-Amen
02-08-2008, 12:24
Not sure what you mean?

Quote t-tauri 'Off to 40k background.'

This is the 40K background thread area?

Sojourner
02-08-2008, 12:36
This is the 40K background thread area?

Well it is now, obviously.

There was a mention in some codex or another of "noncombatants of advanced years" who have a supporting role in a Chapter. Presumably this means they've been excused from frontline service not necessarily because they're frail, but more likely because they're getting slow and may have quite elaborate health requirements related to old wounds, the amount of artificial equipment plugged into them and the amount of drugs needed to sustain their physiology. Not that they couldn't fight, only that it'd be tedious for them to do so and would be a liability to their brothers.

Hierarch
03-08-2008, 02:21
Since the history of Warhammer 40k is frozen they are never going to be old. Though if they continue with the history they will become old and die. The organs only prolong the inevitable. Extra lung, extra heart, that kinda stuff will eventually cause organ failure and the brain will loose cells. Other than Dante there is another Marine who has served in two wars that are 2000 years apart from each other...forgot his name I think he was a Black Tamplar. But this may not be true as history says.

Hope this helps : )

icegreentea
03-08-2008, 04:38
The Marines in charge with training the neophytes, running trials on garrisoned worlds, or leading the scout company are all probably 'old' Marines, in the sense that they are experienced and venerable enough to trust the future of the Chapter to, while being unsuited to front line combat. Maybe they've received battle damage to the point of the augments may pose a problem in combat, or maybe they've actually just gotten slower/weaker/less badass as they age/receive ridiculous scars and injuries.

Probably have to be centuries (like 300 or something) old to reach that state though. Cept, with the warp and all, 300 could mean anything.

Finally, Dante and the Blood Angels are somewhat different in that they are particularly long lived (or maybe its better to say they age better). Something about all that blood. Well, if they don't get struck down by the curses first.

ryng_sting
03-08-2008, 07:21
Remember the BAs flaw also extends their lifespan. An Ultramarine is usually white-haired and craggy by the time he's pushing 4 centuries or more. As most chapters are descended from them, we'll have to assume the same applies.

FerrumIgnatus
03-08-2008, 09:04
Uh... isen't Björn the Fell-Handed -you know, that old Space Wolf dreadnought- the oldest known Astartes?

Penitent Engine
03-08-2008, 09:14
Yes. But he's in a DREADNOUGHT-they do NOT age!
That BT marine who fought in the 2000-years-apart wars is a sort of legend thing. I remember reading about him in a WD a while back (issue 3310-317 [aus]).

I'm of the opinion that Space Marines don't age in a negative way-think about it, if you're going to make superhuman uber-soldiers, why not make them immortal at the same time!

FerrumIgnatus
03-08-2008, 09:23
Yes. But he's in a DREADNOUGHT-they do NOT age!
That BT marine who fought in the 2000-years-apart wars is a sort of legend thing. I remember reading about him in a WD a while back (issue 3310-317 [aus]).

I'm of the opinion that Space Marines don't age in a negative way-think about it, if you're going to make superhuman uber-soldiers, why not make them immortal at the same time!

Right... being an weapon-wielding, armoured coffin that resides in stasis between battles doesn't count... but he remembers events that makes the Emperor look like a 13-year old german Halo fan(atic)... that has to count a bit?

On a side note, Chaos Marines don't age in the Eye of Terror, right? so they can be the age of, say, a newly recruited Loyalist Neophyte and have the wisdom and experience of a battle-scarred Chapter Master.

heretics bane
03-08-2008, 20:41
They definitely age, but the question is does it affect them. Calgar is only like 450 but he's gray haired. Space Wolves apparently age at random due to their body chemistry and the Canis Helix so some are gray haired and some aren't and its hard to tell their age.

After all, Dante wears the death mask for a reason, hes as old as dirt and the mask keeps his wrinkles out of his eyes ;)

He has to wear it because IIRC when one of the BA's succesor chapters went rogue and the BA turned up to kick them about, thats when dante was wounded when battering the chapter master to pieces along with a few of there honor guard quite a feat when hes like 1.5k old.

a helpless goat
03-08-2008, 22:37
to quote the hunt for red october "forever is a long time". How can we imagine time periods like 10,000 years when we can perceve less than 100. I'd say it varries depending on the chapter and the person. Dante retiring is hard to belive as is any the blood angles (wait..). After countless eons a marine would die or his luck on the battle field would run out. i doubt any would want to live forever, never getting to pass into the emperors eternal fields. This doesn't mean they would commit suicide more fight until the enevitable...

Leftenant Gashrog
04-08-2008, 00:19
but he remembers events that makes the Emperor look like a 13-year old german Halo fan(atic)... that has to count a bit?

Not when the discussion is on the effects of aging on a marines physique.


As to the bit about marines combat prowess fading with old age: its mentioned in the Captains entry in Insignium Astartes ~ which was published half-way through 3rd edition, and is listed in the 4th edition Space Marine and Dark Angel codices as a place to look for more information - so its certainly not obsolete fluff.


As for chaos marines, aside from the passage of time being different in the EoT, don't forget that dark gods almost never allow their valued minions/playthings to die be it through old age or anything else.

StormWulfen
04-08-2008, 08:24
logan grimnar is around 700 years old and there is another space wolf (wolf lord, rune priest or wolf priest cant remember) that is over 900 years old and space wolves are one of if not the most ferocious chapter in the astartes:chrome:

Hrw-Amen
04-08-2008, 12:23
So if CSM get away with it because of their links with the Chaos Gods, live in the EOT etc then how about those that do not actually inhabit the EOT, for example the Alpha Legion and the Fallen DA. Does that mean that they have a special hot line to call for a Chaos god to come and regenerate them? I figured from what I've read that although they are treated as CSM / renegades that they are specifically into Chaos but rather just happen to use those sort of things to their own ends. Does this mean that all the old fallen DA are dead and that there is still a steady supply of ones that continue to fall and that the Alpha Legion is nowadays made up of new recruits to it?

heretics bane
04-08-2008, 12:46
Right... being an weapon-wielding, armoured coffin that resides in stasis between battles doesn't count... but he remembers events that makes the Emperor look like a 13-year old german Halo fan(atic)... that has to count a bit?.

mmh the Emperor is some where between 18-20 thousand years old while Bjorn is only 10k, so i dont think he has seen more than the emperor....

Leftenant Gashrog
04-08-2008, 21:50
mmh the Emperor is some where between 18-20 thousand years old while Bjorn is only 10k, so i dont think he has seen more than the emperor....

I'm pretty certain the only date ever given for the Emperors birth is 8,000BC, which would be 48,000 years old.


Does this mean that all the old fallen DA are dead and that there is still a steady supply of ones that continue to fall and that the Alpha Legion is nowadays made up of new recruits to it? Cypher certainly has some power of some sort looking after him, the other fallen.. are an unknown quantity - I believe its been said that sometimes the warp still spits them out, much like what used to be said about regular chaos traitors (the old Renegades suppliment for EPIC mentioned that even in the 41st millenium the occassional ship would arrive at the Eye of Terror containing rebels from the Horus Heresy, to whome only a few months had passed). I seem to recall that the Alpha Legion IA article mentioned an Inquisitors suspicion that the legion must till be recruiting and acquiring equipment within the Imperium.

icegreentea
04-08-2008, 22:43
I'm pretty certain the only date ever given for the Emperors birth is 8,000BC, which would be 48,000 years old.

Cypher certainly has some power of some sort looking after him, the other fallen.. are an unknown quantity - I believe its been said that sometimes the warp still spits them out, much like what used to be said about regular chaos traitors (the old Renegades suppliment for EPIC mentioned that even in the 41st millenium the occassional ship would arrive at the Eye of Terror containing rebels from the Horus Heresy, to whome only a few months had passed). I seem to recall that the Alpha Legion IA article mentioned an Inquisitors suspicion that the legion must till be recruiting and acquiring equipment within the Imperium.

In regards to DA, I thought there was a theory that when Caliban blew, they were spread across space AND time, such that they emerged all over the future. And its also entirely possible that without the wear and tear of constant battle, they really do get to live ridiculously long.

I remember reading the Alpha Legion article as well. It would make sense. The vast majority of the Imperium sees Space Marines one a generation, or even less. How could they tell the difference between one group of Knights from the Sky, and one with spikier armor?