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IncrediSteve
01-08-2008, 21:25
Why do they call the Greater Daemons of Slaanesh "Keeper of Secrets"? Keeping secrets doesn't seem to have much to do with Slaanesh, and seems more like what you would call the Tzeench Daemons [forbidden knowledge, schemes, etc].

Just doesn't seem to fit very well to me. I know it's mentioned in a few places that Slaanesh works its way in to areas by deceit, but that's more a niche, the rest of the Greater Daemons are taken as examples of each Chaos God's focus; Bloodthirster is pretty obvious, Great Unclean One fits, Lord of Change is basically what Tzeentch is, but Keeper of Secrets just doesn't click in with Extreme Excess.

Thoughts?

The Anarchist
01-08-2008, 21:28
i think its got to do with secrets of all the greatest pleaseures that can be attained, and the ability to see what a persons greatest secret is and offer it to them in the msot sedutive way.

also slightyl older fluff had something to do with the true form of slannesh or some such i belive (though this could be wildly wrong)

Neffertech
01-08-2008, 21:37
Did you ever watch Different Strokes, and the episode with Arnold and the Bike shop guy?

And he told them to keep it a secret.:eek:

It's like that. Or perhaps because Slaanesh knows all your secret desires, no matter how wrong they are, even those you might not know yourself. You can't hide the little part of you that's evil, twisted or demented from a greater demon of Slaanesh.

GodofWarTx
01-08-2008, 22:03
Agreed. The name stems from the ability to know your deepest darkest desires, and of course, to use that desire to destroy you.

MrBigMr
01-08-2008, 23:45
I agree, the Kippers know all your dirty little secrets and for a small fee (ya soul), they will not leak it. Just because Tzeentch is the master of scheming doesn't mean other's aren't capable of having their own. Slaanesh has everything written down in her little black book that she keeps close by. She then calls you at night in your dreams and whispers your secrets at you, just to see you squirm.

baphomael
02-08-2008, 00:04
The reason a Keeper of Secrets is called a Keeper of Secrets is, because, a Keeper of Secrets knows all your secrets.

The idea is a KoS knows all your darkest, kinkiest, sickest, extreme secrets. He knows your every desire by default and, as such, knows how best to manipulate them. Imagine the local councilor who puts on an air of being a respectable family-guy good WASP. The KoS knows that secretly he likes to get off by going to dingy clubs to dress up in fishnet stockings and suspenders whilst being spanked by a a burly Austrian called Hanz dressed in a gasmask.

afshinbb
02-08-2008, 00:09
funi stuff. gasmask austrian spanking sessions, very slaneesh indeed. ha ha.

MrBigMr
02-08-2008, 00:14
Anyone thinking about the movie Dogma?

Jay: Yo man, tell me something about me.
Rufus: You masturbate more than anyone on the planet.
Jay: Aw, everyone knows that. Tell me something nobody knows.
Rufus: When you do it, you're thinking about guys.
[a shocked Silent Bob stares at Jay]
Jay: Dude, not all the time.

Brother Siccarius
02-08-2008, 06:05
Why do they call the Greater Daemons of Slaanesh "Keeper of Secrets"? Keeping secrets doesn't seem to have much to do with Slaanesh, and seems more like what you would call the Tzeench Daemons [forbidden knowledge, schemes, etc].

Just doesn't seem to fit very well to me. I know it's mentioned in a few places that Slaanesh works its way in to areas by deceit, but that's more a niche, the rest of the Greater Daemons are taken as examples of each Chaos God's focus; Bloodthirster is pretty obvious, Great Unclean One fits, Lord of Change is basically what Tzeentch is, but Keeper of Secrets just doesn't click in with Extreme Excess.

Thoughts?

Slaanesh used to be described as the ultimate corrupter of souls. He could see into the darkest parts of your soul and use your secrets to turn you. Pride, ambition, lust, passion, spite: all were the tools that slaanesh used to draw you into her folds. People were drawn to slaanesh to live out their fantasies and exact secret revenge. It also doesn't hurt that Slaanesh cults are probably some of the most secretive and farthest reaching, lacking the overt nature of mutations shown by Tzeentch and Nurgle, and being known for more subtlety than it's brother Khorn.

Shibboleth
02-08-2008, 07:15
It's like those fraternities that keep photos of high profile members in compromising situations. It promotes loyalty.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
02-08-2008, 20:47
Because Boob Demon just doesn't sound as good.

ashc
02-08-2008, 20:54
S/he is the Keeper of YOUR secrets. eep! :evilgrin:

Kage2020
02-08-2008, 22:15
Just for an alternate approach, which admittedly has less bearing on the modern 'fluff,' there is the idea of the "Greatest Secret." That is, using the Third Law of Thermodynamics as inspiration, i.e. energy cannot be created nor destroyed but merely changed in form, there is the suggestion that Slaanesh never destroyed the Eldar deities. Rather, It changed them; made them different. Indeed, It wrought them into the Keepers of Secrets, with the irony that the "greatest secret" was kept from them -- their true identity.

Again, it's just an alternate view point, but... Well, it's always fun to speculate. :D

Kage

MrBigMr
02-08-2008, 22:43
The Kagean Theory of Eldar and Slaanesh Interaction in Thermodynamic Frame, or "the thing Kage talked about with the gods and kippers."

That is one way to look at it, but aren't there a ton of kippers and for the life of me I can't believe there's that many Eldar deities. I would more think that Slaanesh merely consumed them, absorbing their energy into itself. I don't think it has any problems with such action. I know it's less flashy than turning other deiries into its puppets, but it's simpler and more logical. I think.

Kage2020
02-08-2008, 23:55
Well, I'm not going to argue the relative merits of the concept... okay, maybe I will. Just a little bit. I find it necessary, however, to point out the fallacy of arguing from a "logical" standpoint when dealing with the canonical 40k universe (and the vanilla approach to it). I don't have a problem with that stance myself, but it does require a degree of rigorousness normally absent. ;)

Seriously, though, even though there might be a myriad of Keepers of Secrets, that doesn't mean that they all have to be this type of corrupted deity. Indeed, I personally think that it is a huge mistake to believe that there are thousands of Keepers of Secrets, or any type of Greater Daemon of Chaos. It's a bit... wargame-y. "Well, there are thousands of players, and each of them have or have fought Greater Daemons, thust they must be common!" Etc. ;)

Simpler to consume all the gods? Yes, perhaps that is true. More interesting? Well, that's another question. Even if this is just what a privileged and elite few Eldar believe and fight for, regardless of whether it is true or not, doesn't it make things a tiny bit more interesting? Take the horrendously tired "dying race" and give it a bit of hope, even if in ones personal interpretation it is an inherently empty hope?

Each to his, her or its own, I guess. :eyebrows:

Kage

P.S. It could have been worse. I could have mentioned the Metarune. :p

Brother Siccarius
03-08-2008, 02:05
Just for an alternate approach, which admittedly has less bearing on the modern 'fluff,' there is the idea of the "Greatest Secret." That is, using the Third Law of Thermodynamics as inspiration, i.e. energy cannot be created nor destroyed but merely changed in form, there is the suggestion that Slaanesh never destroyed the Eldar deities. Rather, It changed them; made them different. Indeed, It wrought them into the Keepers of Secrets, with the irony that the "greatest secret" was kept from them -- their true identity.

Again, it's just an alternate view point, but... Well, it's always fun to speculate. :D

Kage


The Kagean Theory of Eldar and Slaanesh Interaction in Thermodynamic Frame, or "the thing Kage talked about with the gods and kippers."

That is one way to look at it, but aren't there a ton of kippers and for the life of me I can't believe there's that many Eldar deities. I would more think that Slaanesh merely consumed them, absorbing their energy into itself. I don't think it has any problems with such action. I know it's less flashy than turning other deiries into its puppets, but it's simpler and more logical. I think.

Actually, it's funny, you're both talking about the exact same thing, only through different perspectives. You see, when Slaanesh subsumed the other eldar gods* into the vortex of power that is itself in the Warp, their votrex became part of it.

A demon is simply a portion of the Chaos God's power given sentience. You see a Keeper of Secrets is a portion of Slaanesh's power, so the oldest of them would be from the vortexies of power that Slaanesh stole from the Eldar gods.

Subsuming the gods into himself, corrupting the eldar gods, it's the same thing, but the latter has the scope of mythology to look through.

*I like to point out that Slaanesh is just as much a part of the Eldar Pantheon as the the Laughing God of Vaul. Created from the worst part of them, representing the end they built for themselves during the fall.

The Lord of Hats
03-08-2008, 02:08
Don't you know? Keeper of Secrets isn't referring to the daemon. It's referring to its loincloth.

That's a scary, scary secret indeed.

Kage2020
03-08-2008, 02:58
Subsuming the gods into himself, corrupting the eldar gods, it's the same thing, but the latter has the scope of mythology to look through.
Interesting perspective and exactly... both at the same time! :D

Kage

IncrediSteve
03-08-2008, 05:27
... there is the suggestion that Slaanesh never destroyed the Eldar deities. Rather, It changed them; made them different...

Kage

This could have some merit to it; also note the story in the Daemons Codex about the Keeper of Secrets that snuck in and opened the craftworld for attack. The keeper's presence caused the dormant Avatar of Khaine to awaken and attack it, perhaps some remnant of an Eldar Deity in the Keeper is what woke the Avatar?

Sikkukkut
03-08-2008, 13:05
Slaanesh used to be described as the ultimate corrupter of souls. He could see into the darkest parts of your soul and use your secrets to turn you.

I remember that according to the second-edition writeup on the Keepers, it was said that they could hear anything that was uttered by any being anywhere in the Cosmos. Which is a bit weird to get one's head around as literally true, but which works beautifully as a figure of speech. I can just imagine, for example, an Inquisitor using that expression to convey the depth of the Keepers' eldritch knowledge and perception to someone who couldn't quite grasp the concept directly.

(Although at the time I remember trying to imagine a Keeper of Secrets launching itself into battle with a cry of "will you all just SHUT UP!")

The idea of each Keeper being a twisted shadow-fragment of one of the old Eldar divinities in the way that each Avatar is a shadow-fragment of Khaine certainly appeals, too.

Koryphaus
03-08-2008, 14:18
This could have some merit to it; also note the story in the Daemons Codex about the Keeper of Secrets that snuck in and opened the craftworld for attack. The keeper's presence caused the dormant Avatar of Khaine to awaken and attack it, perhaps some remnant of an Eldar Deity in the Keeper is what woke the Avatar?

There's also that Khorne and Slaanesh despise each other.. So The Avatar Khaine, being a part of Khorne and all that, would hate the Avatar of Slaanesh. Like all good little Eldar boys and girls should.

Kage2020
03-08-2008, 14:40
The idea of each Keeper being a twisted shadow-fragment of one of the old Eldar divinities in the way that each Avatar is a shadow-fragment of Khaine certainly appeals, too.
And the oh-so-obvious link to the Solitaires crops up here as well... ;)

Kage

Brother Siccarius
03-08-2008, 19:07
And the oh-so-obvious link to the Solitaires crops up here as well... ;)

Kage

Actually, it's kinda funny. Going along with the idea of chaos gods as "Pantheons" put down in the Liber books (ie: The gods are smaller vortexes in the more powerful vortexes of the more dominant chaos gods) it creates an interesting situation when you consider the Laughing God's relationship to Slaanesh. You see, the Laughing god tricks and plays against Slaanesh, and tries to steal souls away from it.

Now, thinking about it in a less mythological way, when a soul dies, it's generally torn apart, and the emotional fragments going off to the corresponding chaos vortex. When an Eldar dies, their soul is pretty much going straight to Slaanesh's whirlpool of power in the warp (In mythological terms, Slaanesh senses and steals their souls after death). Now, the eldar Laughing god is a smaller whirlpool in the giant whirlpool of Slaanesh's warp form. When a soul dies and goes to slaanesh, who's to say he doesn't receive the soul once it's inside Slaanesh? In mythological terms, playing a trick on Slaanesh, for while Slaanesh has still gained the soul, it's been plucked from inside of her by the Laughing God, and is now in his care (and powering his own little rebellious whirlpool of power).

Cavalier
04-08-2008, 00:24
Anyone thinking about the movie Dogma?

Jay: Yo man, tell me something about me.
Rufus: You masturbate more than anyone on the planet.
Jay: Aw, everyone knows that. Tell me something nobody knows.
Rufus: When you do it, you're thinking about guys.
[a shocked Silent Bob stares at Jay]
Jay: Dude, not all the time.

I was thinking more of Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, where the hooker tells Jay she'll do anything he wants, and so he goes on a 5 minute speech about all the different things he wants her to do. Eventually, the hooker gets disgusted and quits. "This job just got too weird for me!"

Hellebore
04-08-2008, 00:29
They're called a Keeper of Secrets because, well, would you want to tell anyone what went on between you and the keeper? No, didn't think so...

Hellebore

Gensuke626
04-08-2008, 00:38
Don't you know? Keeper of Secrets isn't referring to the daemon. It's referring to its loincloth.

That's a scary, scary secret indeed.

It's a Trap!

MrBigMr
04-08-2008, 00:39
They're called a Keeper of Secrets because, well, would you want to tell anyone what went on between you and the keeper? No, didn't think so...
"Oh, honey, it's ok. I'm sure it happens to a lot of guys."
"You won't tell anyone, will you?"
"Your secret's safe with me."

Kage2020
04-08-2008, 02:14
And, yay, your 'fluff' shall be defined by common sexual insecurity... Or maybe not. ;)

Kage

LexxBomb
04-08-2008, 08:47
they are called keepers of secrets because they hear every though ever made by individuals and hence know every secret in the galaxy.