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SabrX
02-08-2008, 18:43
I'm currently in the works of building a Chaos Space marine army and I need to know the fluffy combos among the four Chaos Gods. This is crucial because I could get mark down at tournaments when some players care more about fluff then competitiveness.

Khorne Berzerkers + Thousand Suns?
Khorne Berzerkers + Plague Marines?
Khorne Berzerkers + Noise Marines?
Thousand Suns + Plague Marines?
Thousand Suns + Noise Marines?
Plague Marines + Noise Marines?

ashc
02-08-2008, 20:53
You refer to the rivalries of the gods I assume?

Khorne detests Slaanesh with a passion and vice-versa.
Nurgle detests Tzeentch with a passion and vice-versa.

Khorne basically views Slaanesh as an underhanded foppish wimp more interested in the pleasures of pain than just good old killing. Slaanesh considers Khorne a simple minded brute because of this.

Tzeentch is all about evolution and change; Nurgle is all about degradation and destruction; these two are obviously diametrically opposed.

Some would also argue that Khorne and Tzeentch shouldn't get on due to the magic vs. antimagic thing, but this has not been played up like the above rivalries.

So the combos that are out are:
Berzerkers and Noise Marines
and
1K Sons and Plague Marines.

Hope that helps.

Ash

Dominus_Serui
02-08-2008, 21:54
That said, the Dark Gods followers are sometimes united by simple need or a more powerful follower of Chaos see...Horus/Abaddon...so any one of those combo's can plausibly occur.

SabrX
02-08-2008, 22:03
Thanks a lot ashc for the reasons why factions don't get along and thank you Dominus_Serui for a reference and an excuse when I use rivaled chaos factions.

ashc
02-08-2008, 22:07
Not a problem; and yes, Dominus_Serui makes a good point that although these are the rivalries, the gods do now and again put aside their differences for whatever reason or another; of course, the benefits would have to be great for each and every god to be putting aside their rivalries.... :evilgrin:

Decius
02-08-2008, 22:14
Personally, I'm of the opinion that all the chaos gods are rivals with each other. Relationships wax and wane, pacts are formed, betrayal occurs, but ultimately, they are all in it for themselves. That's how I see it at least.

SabrX
02-08-2008, 22:38
With Daemons out, I see a lot of mixing especially Khorne/Slaneesh and Slaneesh/Tzeetch. If Daemons are allowed to mix, why can't Chaos?

ashc
02-08-2008, 22:41
There isn't anything stopping you mixing of course (heck, this certainly seems to be GW's attitude when you look at the recent codex books) but you did ask what the rivalries are (were? - I don't know if GW even care any more)! :)

Ash

susu.exp
02-08-2008, 22:55
Well, to expand on ashcs explanation of the rivaleries:
Khorne and Slaanesh can be thought to represent the two impulses recognized be Freud: Libido (Slaanesh) and Destrudo (Khorne), Libido is the urge to create, destrudo is the urge to destroy oneself and others. Freud developed the later concept in "Beyond the Pleasure Principle", the pleasure principle being identified with the libido.

Tzeentch is pretty much representing mania, while Nurgle does depression. Tseentch is all hope and Nurgle all despair and decay (similarities between the 40k Chaos background the the ongoing US presidential race are certainly not intended - but if you´re trying to google for further insight into these concepts you´re wading through campaign coverage). Another way to look at it is Jungs characterization of the two phases of Self-realization, with an early stage, where the self is constructed and sperated from the community through a desire for change (Tseentch) and a leter stage with a desire to reconnect with the community and let the differing properties of the self decay (Nurgle).

Trolond
02-08-2008, 23:34
I've always understood it as this. Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other. While Khornate ideas are to kill for the purpose of killing, Slaaneshi warriors kill for the sake of savouring every second of intense physical suffering of the victim. Yet also, Nurgle and Tzeentch hate either other. Tzeentch is evolution; Nurgle is degradation. But Khorne also despises Tzeentch for his use of magic and trickery, believing that everything should be handled bluntly.

Berzerkers and Plague Marines make the most sense, as do Noise Marines and Thousand Sons. I've always thought that Noise Marines & Sons balance each other out fairly well... while NMs constantly live life to the highest degree physically possible, 90% of the Sons are lifeless, simply obeying orders.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-08-2008, 00:31
Nurgle isn't really degradation. He is static, "anti-change" if you like.

Dominus_Serui
03-08-2008, 01:51
I've allways considered the rivalries between the chaos gods to only truely come into play when they're left to their own devices - followers of Nurgle are probably considered by followers of Tzeentch to be slow, dim-witted and far too resistant to change - and in the same way the followers of Khorne think followers of Slaneesh are to foppish, arty and distracted by unnecissary things.

Still Khorne's followers would probably be considered by followers of Tzeentch to be too brutish and stupid to fully comprehend the intricacies of their own multi-faceted plans - and likewise followers Khorne would consider followers of Tzeentch too obsessed with tiny details. To the same extent followers of Tzeentch and Slaneesh can be brought into conflict, the fact that followers of the Dark Prince are commonly distracted by pursuit of their own pleasures makes them unreliable as far as Tzeentch is concerned, meaning their plans cannot be followed through with the certainty that they require.

So if any followers of any two chaos powers are left to their own devices they could quite easily be drawn into conflict - in some cases the alliances between followers Chaos powers come about due to convienience, if both have a similar objective they could quite easily be drawn into alliance, despite withstanding conflicts. After all unlike their Gods the followers are mortal and unlike Chaos Demons aren't bound like slaves, they worship in their own multi-faceted ways, and many of them appreciate the need of convenient alliances.

Like I said above the most common occurance is when the followers of multiple powers are united under a single leader like Abaddon...specifically when a chosen campion of all four gods arises all the mortal followers of several gods ally with him or her. Or...in other cases alliances can come about because of a specific follower of a single god gets sly enough to manipulate the followers of other gods into dooing their bidding, for instance a Tzeentch Sorceror calling upon the forces of Nurgle so that he or she might spread a plague before his carefully calculated invasion plan goes into action

Wolfblade670
03-08-2008, 02:07
Here's a combo idea: As Khorne always struck me as a fellow who would love his axe-wielding minions charging into battle to the sound of death metal, why not simply make "counts-as" Khornate Noise Marines? Use the Noise Marine profile but model them as Khornates blowing their enemies' ears to the sounds of something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkkYxmMj-Oo

:evilgrin:

Seriously, Khorne + Metal = Win :D

SabrX
03-08-2008, 07:08
My answer to using all factions of chaos: THE BLACK CRUSADE!

Here's my ideal army list:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2833222#post2833222

Dominus_Serui
03-08-2008, 13:20
I believe I covered Black Crusades in the 'all the different followers of different gods uniting under one leader' part of my post.

Sikkukkut
03-08-2008, 13:47
Keep in mind that you're not just dealing with your Traitor Legionnaires as abstractions. If they're veteran Chaos warriors they're going to have powerful wills and obsessions over their goals. You can have any combination of loyalties that you can justify with a cool backstory. Perhaps the leader of one faction bound another to him with force or the promise of vengeance or conquest. Perhaps hard-earned favours have been called in or an oath of loyalty extorted. Consider your commanders as people with a story rather than as generic pawns of the gods and you'll be able to think of a cool account that brings them together.

SabrX
03-08-2008, 16:02
I like my fluffy story:


A Chaos Lord worships Slaneesh and is endowed by Slaneesh's godly powers to "manipulate, extort, and intimidate" other Chaos Champions to join his cause. He promises the Skull Champion more skulls for the skull throne, the Plague Champion more brains for his blight grenades, the Aspiring Sorcerer more Tylenol for his migraine, and The Noise Champion more delicious sadistic s&m torture/bondage for pain and pleasure. And so the Chaos Lord launches a Black Crusade against the Imperium for conquest and glory!

Drasanil
04-08-2008, 05:57
Uhm ya, I don't think you get the point of "fluffy".

First off I'd take marks off right away for using Abbadon, special characters are the bane of "Fluffy" in such small battles, not to mention seeing such important people leading small skirmishs all over the place is really annoying. Secondly I'd take further marks off for fielding a Slaaneshi squad matching Khorne's sacred number, which I'd never even thought of, but you made me want to look for extra reasons to take comp points off.

As for your second army list with it's fluffy story I'd probably give you 0 for comp score for insulting my intelligence with what you're trying to pass off as a "themed" army. Honestly I'd give you more points if you just flat out admitted you were a power gamer and didn't make such a half-@rsed attempt at passing it off a fluffy or themed.

Nazguire
04-08-2008, 07:44
I've always understood it as this. Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other. While Khornate ideas are to kill for the purpose of killing, Slaaneshi warriors kill for the sake of savouring every second of intense physical suffering of the victim. Yet also, Nurgle and Tzeentch hate either other. Tzeentch is evolution; Nurgle is degradation. But Khorne also despises Tzeentch for his use of magic and trickery, believing that everything should be handled bluntly.

Berzerkers and Plague Marines make the most sense, as do Noise Marines and Thousand Sons. I've always thought that Noise Marines & Sons balance each other out fairly well... while NMs constantly live life to the highest degree physically possible, 90% of the Sons are lifeless, simply obeying orders.

Khorne doesn't believe in handling things bluntly and violently over magic, rather that things should be handled directly and to the person's face, instead of working behind the scenes so to speak.

This is evidenced by the way that Berserkers (particularly the World Eaters) operate as opposed to the Thousand Sons. The Thousand Sons don't use direct brute force (though the are more then capable of doing so) and prefer to use illusion, trickery, manipulation, deceit and magic to completely outclass the opponent.

The World Eaters see this as dishonourable and cowardly, and disrespectful to the opponent that they are facing. Khorne is a god of strength, and if you are bested in combat by someone that you oppose face to face then he is worthy of your respect (not necessarily like the guy obviously).

Slaaneshi warriors don't just kill to torture the victim either for pleasure. There is also the martial aspect to it as well, just how perfectly equisitely awesomely that they can kill a certain chap. Look at Julius Kaesoron in Fulgrim for example. Everything was timed and perfected, torture and mutilation of the corpse was just for fun afterwards.

Nurgle isn't so much degradation as the status quo while Tzeentch is about breaking out of the status quo, breaking social boundaries and changing constantly which in itself isn't always a good thing too.

SabrX
04-08-2008, 08:25
Consider your commanders as people with a story rather than as generic pawns of the gods and you'll be able to think of a cool account that brings them together.

Would a good story involve the Noise Champion, Plague Champion, Skull Champion, and the Aspiring Sorcerer joining the Black Legion similar to the Fellowship of the Ring, and end up back stabbing each other in the middle of battles against the Imperium? :)

Slaaneshi Slave
04-08-2008, 08:42
Uhm ya, I don't think you get the point of "fluffy".

First off I'd take marks off right away for using Abbadon, special characters are the bane of "Fluffy" in such small battles, not to mention seeing such important people leading small skirmishs all over the place is really annoying. Secondly I'd take further marks off for fielding a Slaaneshi squad matching Khorne's sacred number, which I'd never even thought of, but you made me want to look for extra reasons to take comp points off.

As for your second army list with it's fluffy story I'd probably give you 0 for comp score for insulting my intelligence with what you're trying to pass off as a "themed" army. Honestly I'd give you more points if you just flat out admitted you were a power gamer and didn't make such a half-@rsed attempt at passing it off a fluffy or themed.

I don't think you get the point of 40k. 40k is a game for fun, not for being a ****** over comp scores.

Nazguire
04-08-2008, 13:04
Would a good story involve the Noise Champion, Plague Champion, Skull Champion, and the Aspiring Sorcerer joining the Black Legion similar to the Fellowship of the Ring, and end up back stabbing each other in the middle of battles against the Imperium? :)


Seeing as that would never happen...

I don't think you understand just how much the followers of different Gods hate each other. If a Khornate Champion was to see a Slaaneshi Champion in striking distance (or not) and had nothing else to kill that was even remotely important, he'd go bounding after him without a second thought.

Putting a Nurgle Plague Lord next to a Sorceror of Tzeentch would result in one of them being killed in an extremely gory way.

Followers of different Gods (and I'm talking real followers, not like the Black Legion that swap and change depending on how they feel at the time, like Noise Marines and Berserkers) tolerate one another only long enough when there is a leader like Abaddon strong enough in political, military and religious power to bind them together into a factional alliance.

These alliances are sketchy at best and the most a Chaos Lord can hope for is to put Khorne Bersekers on one end, and Noise Marines or Sorcerors on another end and hope the two don't come within visual range.

Even though Khorne doesn't have an actual documented hatred of Nurgle, rest assured he wouldn't like him/it, just the same as Nurgle would not particularly like Slaanesh, it's just that they dont' hate each other as much as the other.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-08-2008, 13:39
I don't tend to agree with that. Sure, the Daemons constantly war with each other, but they have nothing to lose by doing so, and lets face it, there is nothing else to do in the Warp anyway. Constant all out war between the Legions would deplete their numbers so quickly that they would soon be unable to continue. I believe it is more a case of if they can kill a member of the opposing God without being caught, or can get away with it in some other way, they will do so. Actively risking their lives to do so is counter productive. Even for the World Eaters. Marines are not easy to make.

Nazguire
04-08-2008, 14:23
I don't tend to agree with that. Sure, the Daemons constantly war with each other, but they have nothing to lose by doing so, and lets face it, there is nothing else to do in the Warp anyway. Constant all out war between the Legions would deplete their numbers so quickly that they would soon be unable to continue. I believe it is more a case of if they can kill a member of the opposing God without being caught, or can get away with it in some other way, they will do so. Actively risking their lives to do so is counter productive. Even for the World Eaters. Marines are not easy to make.

See, background says otherwise. Space Marines are not easy to make that is true. Religious wars are counter-productive, but seeing as Chaos neither makes sense or has any order, this isn't a problem.

The World Eaters and Emperor's Children were fighting one another to an utter bloody standstill on Skalathrax. There's one example of a religious war (Khorne vs. Slaanesh).

Richter Kless
04-08-2008, 20:13
Uhm ya, I don't think you get the point of "fluffy".

First off I'd take marks off right away for using Abbadon, special characters are the bane of "Fluffy" in such small battles, not to mention seeing such important people leading small skirmishs all over the place is really annoying. Secondly I'd take further marks off for fielding a Slaaneshi squad matching Khorne's sacred number, which I'd never even thought of, but you made me want to look for extra reasons to take comp points off.

As for your second army list with it's fluffy story I'd probably give you 0 for comp score for insulting my intelligence with what you're trying to pass off as a "themed" army. Honestly I'd give you more points if you just flat out admitted you were a power gamer and didn't make such a half-@rsed attempt at passing it off a fluffy or themed.

And I think you should stop seeing the background as some holy gospel that cannot POSSIBLY be changed.
Really, relax a bit and stop being so hardassed about it.


The World Eaters and Emperor's Children were fighting one another to an utter bloody standstill on Skalathrax. There's one example of a religious war (Khorne vs. Slaanesh).

That was excerly a war for territory. The World Eaters did not yet have a homeplanet in the Eye of Terror and they thought Skalathrax would be a nice one, but unfortunately the Emperors Children had already claimed it.
And as we all know, hilarity ensued.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-08-2008, 20:20
See, background says otherwise. Space Marines are not easy to make that is true. Religious wars are counter-productive, but seeing as Chaos neither makes sense or has any order, this isn't a problem.

The World Eaters and Emperor's Children were fighting one another to an utter bloody standstill on Skalathrax. There's one example of a religious war (Khorne vs. Slaanesh).

The problem is you are taking the background too literally. There are examples of this stuff happening, but it doesn't happen too often. Or if it does, it is more like the battles in 1984. The background is meant to provide a flavour, which of course should be taken with a pinch of salt as GW have a tendancy to overdo things.

DrDoom
04-08-2008, 21:47
Technically they all hate each other. But they hate other people more. So really the gloves are off, mix and match to your hearts content.

Drasanil
04-08-2008, 23:02
Yes I admit I did go a bit over board on my previous reply, and I apologise for it.


I don't think you get the point of 40k. 40k is a game for fun, not for being a ****** over comp scores.

I'm sorry, but playing against min-maxed armies backed up with special characters is not fun, not to mention it's lazy and uninspired. IMO, people fielding such armies deserve a bad comp score.


And I think you should stop seeing the background as some holy gospel that cannot POSSIBLY be changed. Really, relax a bit and stop being so hardassed about it.

I didn't mean to treat it as holy gospel, what offended me was the dishonest approach he took to making his army "fluffy" and trying to pass it off as such. It's a like if you were pissing on some one's shoe and expect them to believe you when you claim that it's in fact raining, its dishonest and cheap, and you deserve what ever you get for trying it in the first place.

I realise some people care more about effeciency than theme, and vice versa, honestly if my opponents admit it instead of trying to convince me otherwise I wouldn't give them a bad comp score, that is unless they made an army list that was just flat out annoying and/or tedious to play against.

PS: IIRC the entire point of comp scores was to encourage players to stick to more themed armies and actually put some effort into their armies, rather than just going through the book and trying to pick the most "I Winz" options they could fit in.

SabrX
05-08-2008, 02:45
I still think my are was themed with Black Legion in mind. How else could I make an army with Bezerkers + Noise Marines or Plague Marines + Thousand Sons? There's no restriction in the Chaos Space Marine codex and I read the portion on Abaddon and the Black Legion 10 times, so this seems perfectly legit to me. I even did a little research on Black Legion, but didn't read any novels.

From what I read, the Black Legion is pretty much all scattered in 'Warbands' and once in a while, they group up along with other factions for an epic Black Crusade.

I also hate buying models waiting on my shelf to collect dust for an Apocalypse Battle. I'm pretty sure Abaddon wouldn't mind fighting small skirmishes to pass the time. And I don't have 10,000 points of Chaos Space Marine models. I'm pretty sure less then 20% of all Chaos Space Marine players are even close to 5000 points. GW didn't put a restriction on Abaddon like other Special Characters from other races. I even have Chas friends who'll field their special character such as Ahriman because they are fanatics and love their theme.

I try to mix "power gaming" with fluff and get the best of both worlds for my sake and my opponent's sake. I just think mixing all 4 Chaos Gods is rare and could be fun to play with and against.

Now I'm not a great painter, but my 3000 points of Tau is rather boring with one color theme. I promised myself my next army will be above average in CC and will have a wide variety of colors. The main color of my Black Legion army will be black, but the 4 Troops will still retain a good portion of their original color.

ashc
05-08-2008, 12:42
Quite honestly, although there is background displaying the rivalries, its now GW's intention to let you do whatever the heck you want. Go for it.

Ash

CULCHAIN
06-08-2008, 03:13
there are very old examples in the older chaos codexes of the chaos gods working together usually tzeentch is the mastermind behind it though.

I have a fluffy list with each cult troop; you should however; make it in holy numbers for fluff reasons 9 Tzeentch, 8 Khorne, 7 Nurgle, 6 Slaanesh.