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Gloom
02-08-2008, 18:51
Almost every time I've seen the weights of imperial vehicles in fluff material why do they always weigh so much more than they should for an object of their size and compisition? The Leman Russ is about the only imperial vehicle I've seen with a reasonable weight for its dimensions.

I know its more than likely due to the fact that I'm reading older fluff from back when GW really didnt care about making sense (as opposed to the current doesnt care) and couldnt be bothered to check into things.

What I wanna know is their fluff justification for this. I mean a Warhound Titan standing about 16m tall shouldnt weigh nearly as close to 50 000 tonnes as its said to (thats more than an Iowa class battleship more than twice its size).

Dreachon
02-08-2008, 19:00
No idea were you getting the 50.000 from, it's been 414 tonnes ever FW did their warhound models.

Gloom
02-08-2008, 20:31
No idea were you getting the 50.000 from, it's been 414 tonnes ever FW did their warhound models.

I'm pretty sure the old book I read it in is before that, I'm look at stuff that was around in thr armorcast days.

Firaxin
02-08-2008, 20:42
It's 40k. They have access to much denser materials there. Besides, the Iowa is supposed to be a quick ship, with less (but more sophisticated) actual armor than older ships of its size. Unless I'm thinking of the wrong Iowa class.

Hmm... I thought warhounds were larger than just 16 meters...

Lord Cook
02-08-2008, 21:14
Warhounds are the smallest Imperial titan. Looking at the model and making a complete guess, I don't see 414 tonnes as unreasonable. A baneblade is 300, and while the Warhound may be tall the actual body structure isn't exactly enormous.

Knight_Yellow
02-08-2008, 22:20
Keep in mind as someone above stated...

Warhounds arent made up of conventional modern materials.

leo_neil316
02-08-2008, 23:19
Alot of the G.W stuff is actually more realistic than it seems at first glance.

Not practical or probable or, likely, intentional. But still realistic.

We know titans are heavily armoured and that the outer layer is ceramite like with... well anything heavier than imperial guard flak actually. It's supposed to be heat absorbent/dissipating (hence the name, 40ked 'ceramic') so it's probably light-weight.

The majority of the armour and superstructure and supports will most likely be made from adimantine. Which we know exactly two things about. It's the strongest material the imperium has, and possibly in existance though I'd be surprised if the eldar and necrons didn't have stronger metals. And it's really ******** heavy. I always imagined it as being a metal thats got a tension around the same as titanium but with lead-like levels of density.

So it would probably weigh a bit more than if you built one out of modern materials.... ya know, if you could build the reactor.

So theres this big dumper truck, the Liebherr T 282B. It's 14.5 meters long and weighs 203 tonnes empty and can carry 365. So imagine that, stood on one end, with the 'carry weight' taken up by armour plates and ammo crates and bam. Warhound titan.

chaos0xomega
03-08-2008, 00:48
Ignore what everyone else here said. The real answer is that, like all Imperial forces, vehicle armor is made from contempt. Says so right here in the 5th edition book "My armor is contempt." Quoted straight from some space marines mouth. Everyone knows contempt is denser than anything else, even such things as dwarf stars...

Feor
03-08-2008, 00:57
Really? I thought Contempt armour was some kinda relic that Gaunt guy had... :p

Also something to consider: The weight of the reactors that are powering these things. All we really know about them are that they're "plasma reactors" and IIRC (it's been awhile since I got anywhere near plasma in a learning environment) to make plasma you need high densities of a material, usually maintained by magnetic field. We also know that when a Titan's reactor loses containment, the expansion of the material within can easily take out a city block.

So cram a city block into an area the size of a largeish refridgerator, how much do you think that's gonna weigh? :p

leo_neil316
03-08-2008, 11:56
You wouldn't need all that much material. A plasma reactor seems to be kinda like (going by the descriptions of them I can remember) the 'annihilation plants' used by things in the 'schlock mercenary' webcomic.

Pretty much just converting matter straight to energy (the warp drives on star-trek work similarly actually). Like a nuclear reactor. Well not really (nuclear power just splits atoms, lets the bits bounce around splitting more and uses the energy to heat water). Basically what I'm saying is you wouldn't -need- all that much fuel comparatively.

But when you loose containment your pretty much looking at a cascade affect where all the nearby mass (I.E most of whatever was using the thing) turning into one big explosive and going poom. Which most other engines won't do. Even nuclear ones.

Lord Cook
03-08-2008, 12:10
If you're creating energy directly out of matter, you would only need a tiny amount of matter. Even converting a small chunk of matter into energy would create vast amounts of energy. E=mc2, where c = the speed of light. So the amount of matter multiplied by the speed of light, and then squared. Just for reference, the speed of light is 3108 m/s.

Sojourner
03-08-2008, 14:31
Indeed, reactor fuel won't be a significant source of weight for a Titan. Fusion research reactors today consume grams of fuel at a time. From memory, the deuterium in (I believe) a cubic metre of seawater could satisfy the whole planet's energy needs for a day. So, fuel is not significant, the construction of the reactor itself probably is.

ironcurtin117
03-08-2008, 14:58
the 50,000 tons for a Warhound is a little (sic) excessive, but as I mentioned on a thread regarding titan size, there is no set STC "size" for any of the titan models, which is why you can have a warlord at 40m tall or 100m tall. I do agree that the weights of various units is really messed up. A Leman Russ is quite a bit larger than a M1 Abrams but it still weighs less despite the presence of a larger cannon, 3 hull mounted weapons and all that good stuff.

icegreentea
03-08-2008, 23:15
the 50,000 tons for a Warhound is a little (sic) excessive, but as I mentioned on a thread regarding titan size, there is no set STC "size" for any of the titan models, which is why you can have a warlord at 40m tall or 100m tall. I do agree that the weights of various units is really messed up. A Leman Russ is quite a bit larger than a M1 Abrams but it still weighs less despite the presence of a larger cannon, 3 hull mounted weapons and all that good stuff.

The obvious answer is that Leman Russes have less weight in armor proportionally compared to modern battle tanks. All tanks have stronger frontal armor than side, rear, and top. You could explain away the mass difference by saying that Leman Russes have a particularly high front:side armor ratio because of the need to keep the sides modular (to mount weapon sponsoons or whatever). And to be far, the Abram's main gun has a smaller bore, but its also way longer. Hull mounted weapons would decrease the density of the armor (I would think anyways). Armor is denser than guns, guns displace armor.

Really, the masses in 40k are all a bit confused. But you can generally explain them away with some imagination. But 50 000 tons for a Warhound would be ridiculous. Such a machine would spend most its time sinking into the ground no? Reminds me of the joke. Space Marines encounter a wooden staircase. Advanced stalled.

GodofWarTx
04-08-2008, 09:54
if you think the mass of the warmachines is warped, you should read the ammo loadouts for some of the guns. The hull mounted heavy bolter on a chimera has like 300 rounds, thats it.

Sai-Lauren
04-08-2008, 10:25
You wouldn't need all that much material. A plasma reactor seems to be kinda like (going by the descriptions of them I can remember) the 'annihilation plants' used by things in the 'schlock mercenary' webcomic.

Plasma reactor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokamak)



Pretty much just converting matter straight to energy (the warp drives on star-trek work similarly actually).

No, the matter/anti-matter reactor (aka warp core) in ST points a beam of matter at a beam of anti matter, and the mutual annihilation within the deuterium crystals releases huge amounts of energy, which is then used for power generation.



Like a nuclear reactor. Well not really (nuclear power just splits atoms, lets the bits bounce around splitting more and uses the energy to heat water). Basically what I'm saying is you wouldn't -need- all that much fuel comparatively.
Fusion reactors still heat up a fluid, which then goes through a heat exchanger to heat another fluid and drives a turbine, same as a fission reactor. A fusion reactor could potentially just take the primary fluid and run off that, especially if you don't care about radioactivity.



But when you loose containment your pretty much looking at a cascade affect where all the nearby mass (I.E most of whatever was using the thing) turning into one big explosive and going poom. Which most other engines won't do. Even nuclear ones.
No, the plasma will escape and the heat and ionisation effects caused by the plasma (a heavily ionised gas) vaporises everything within the expansion zone until it expands and cools down enough to merely raise everything above it's ignition temperature and cause it to ignite.;)

There's also all the munitions, power packs and batteries that will cook off in the titan, which is why it explodes.

As for the weight of a warhound, a Challenger 2 MBT is 62 tonnes, and is smaller than a Leman Russ IIRC (don't have IA on hand to compare dimensions). Take the basic frame, add the fusion plant, power transfer cables, reserve power batteries, control systems and mobility systems, and then by the time you've added in armour, weapons (probably on the order of 30-40 tonnes each themselves), ammunition, communications, life support systems and so on, you're pushing hundreds of tonnes easy.

In fact, the original designers probably spent years going over the blueprints, probably looking at them to see if there's anywhere that they can save even a few grams of weight. ;)

2nd edition epic may have had weights in the thousands of tonnes range (I blame Andy Chambers for that), but as already said - ground liquefaction would render them immobile, even if the mechanical parts could actually handle the stresses of moving something that heavy.



if you think the mass of the warmachines is warped, you should read the ammo loadouts for some of the guns. The hull mounted heavy bolter on a chimera has like 300 rounds, thats it.

Yes, but how big are bolter rounds? And what's the rate of fire for a heavy bolter?;)

Those 300 rounds could well be enough for 10 minutes of firing, wheras the same for a heavy stubber could be 1-2,000 rounds.

leo_neil316
04-08-2008, 14:00
*looks at the above post*

*sigh* Still so much I need to learn huh?

Sojourner
04-08-2008, 15:23
Titans running on steam turbines, even regenerating ones, sounds...silly. Though one hasn't been proposed yet, I would really have thought by then there'd be a more high-tech method of getting the energy from the plasma to the main gearbox without using a stonking great steam turbine. The strength of this approach is its versatility - a turbine-powered vehicle of any sort doesn't care where the steam comes from as long as it's the right temperature and pressure. Some novel means of using magnetohydrodynamics (plasma physics) to shunt electrons around and thus power an electric drive sounds more efficient.

icegreentea
04-08-2008, 22:34
Yes, but how big are bolter rounds? And what's the rate of fire for a heavy bolter?;)

Those 300 rounds could well be enough for 10 minutes of firing, wheras the same for a heavy stubber could be 1-2,000 rounds.

300 rounds isn't actually THAT bad. A bolt round is 0.75 caliber. 300 rounds is a LOT of space. The nearest round IRL is the 20mm autocannon round. The whole round is usually like 100mm long. Space in a tank is pretty limited. Not to mention this is a secondary weapon, made for anti-infantry work. A heavy bolter isn't a machinegun, its a ******* auto cannon. 300 rounds is kind of low, but ok. You have a 0.30 caliber machine gun carry maybe a thousand rounds. A bolter round is like 5 times the volume of a single bullet.

But yeah. There are some seriously screwed up numbers in warhammer anyways. Just remember that everything is there for fun and games.

Lt.Bradford
05-08-2008, 03:04
Rule of Cool.

Why do people always ignore it?

Outlaw289
05-08-2008, 03:36
Rule of Cool.

Why do people always ignore it?

Sometimes Rule of Cool turns into "Rule of :rolleyes:". Most times, I think a fair bit of realism with a large dose of suspension of disbelief makes 40k background work. Certain numbers are far too high in 40k background, while others (like troop numbers in crusades/planetary assaults, ammunition loadouts, military figures in general) are entire orders of magnitudes smaller than they ought to be.

Sai-Lauren
05-08-2008, 08:13
Rule of Cool.

Why do people always ignore it?

Why do some people always think it's the be all and end all? ;)

Any universe has to be fundamentally consistent with itself - the problem with the rule of cool is that it breaks that consistency every time it's used, and sooner or later, the whole thing just collapses under it's own weight.

After all, if you're going to suspend your disbelief, you still need something to support it. :p

And as another aside on the ammo numbers, the pintle 50 cal on the Sherman had 500 rounds.

The General
06-08-2008, 21:08
Just a side note on ammo loads...

A chimera loadout of 300 Heavy bolter rounds (i.e bigger than the standard boltgun size of .75 calibre) is very impressive. especially when you figure in the troop transport capacity of a chimera and the capacitors for the multilase up top in the turret...

just for comparison:
the F-35 Lightning 2 JSF is equipped with a 25mm cannon with 180 rounds.
an F-35 is bigger than a chimera (I think) and, although it has large jet engines (and fuel tanks) it stil has room for sizeable weapons bays.

maybe thats why the side armour of a chimera is so thin/ explosive... ;)

GodofWarTx
07-08-2008, 09:55
Well, an Apache attack helocopter has a loadout of 1200 30mm rounds for its M230 30mm chaingun, and the F-15 has one M-61A1 20 mm with 940 rounnds. =)

Granted, looking at IFVs, the Bradley's Bushmaster has 300 *ready* rounds of ammo, with 600 in storage. While yes, thats the main weapons system, the coax gun has 2,200 rounds of ammo! I think i would be placated knowing that the Chimera has 300 rounds of *ready* ammunition, rather than total ammo. I just see the ammo being used up incredibly quick on the battlefields of 40k. Ork or Nid swarms would be seeing lots of sustained fire.

It just stands to me to see the IG, which focuses on sustained assaults and grinding conflicts would have far larger ammo counts in their weapons systems to account for the fact that operations out in the field would be lengthy sorties.

icegreentea
07-08-2008, 23:01
Well, an Apache attack helocopter has a loadout of 1200 30mm rounds for its M230 30mm chaingun, and the F-15 has one M-61A1 20 mm with 940 rounnds. =)

Granted, looking at IFVs, the Bradley's Bushmaster has 300 *ready* rounds of ammo, with 600 in storage. While yes, thats the main weapons system, the coax gun has 2,200 rounds of ammo! I think i would be placated knowing that the Chimera has 300 rounds of *ready* ammunition, rather than total ammo. I just see the ammo being used up incredibly quick on the battlefields of 40k. Ork or Nid swarms would be seeing lots of sustained fire.

It just stands to me to see the IG, which focuses on sustained assaults and grinding conflicts would have far larger ammo counts in their weapons systems to account for the fact that operations out in the field would be lengthy sorties.

It's not fair to compare the number on the coax with that on the maingun. One round of chaingun ammo is like 5-7 times larger than a 7.62 round (volume wise). The coax also has a higher rate of fire. The Chimera is an APC. It's a battle taxi. It's job isn't to 'blow things up'. Its to protect the infantry till they can deploy and provide fire support if needed. It also has a multilaser. I'm guessing that's what we're overlooking here. The multilaser is far closer to a heavy machinegun, and carries a lot more ammo. So the heavy bolter would be reserved for harder targets.

As a point of comparison, you NEED 1000 rounds on a dog fighting gun. The vulcan spins up to 6000 rounds per minute. 10 seconds of fire. You fire in short (really short bursts). So you might fling out maybe 100 rounds per pull. Except you're flying at high speeds trying to hit a target screaming all over the place. So when you fire, your putting out a line of bullets and hoping that line intersects your target. Each bullet makes the line longer, and increases the probability of a hit. Even when you do hit, maybe only 10 rounds have actually hit anything. As for the Apache. Well, its job is to blow things up. It needs that much ammo.

GodofWarTx
08-08-2008, 04:49
I would contest that the Chimera is more of an IFV, an Infantry Fighting Vehicle, whereas something like the Rhino is an APC. The Chimera has the weaponry and armor to support the infantry it is dismounting, and in my opinion, needs a decent amount of ammo to both advance into combat, and support the troops once dismounted.

AllisterCaine
08-08-2008, 09:19
Because its the Imperium. In the Imperium, bigger is always better.

Sai-Lauren
08-08-2008, 11:45
I would contest that the Chimera is more of an IFV, an Infantry Fighting Vehicle, whereas something like the Rhino is an APC. The Chimera has the weaponry and armor to support the infantry it is dismounting, and in my opinion, needs a decent amount of ammo to both advance into combat, and support the troops once dismounted.

Remember also, that Chimera's get very lonely, and don't really tend to travel individually (the ubiquitous guard army with 1 HQ squad, one 2 squad infantry platoon and an armoured fist squad not withstanding). They travel in large swarms, usually with their bigger brothers (Leman Russes) to look after them as well.

One Chimera with 300 rounds of heavy bolter ammo, 6 lasguns on the back and a Multi-Laser running off the engine is petty weak. When its' five mates turn up carrying the rest of the infantry platoon, who themselves have a lot of weapons and ammo, and there's another 30 odd or even more behind them carrying the rest of the company, plus sentinels, along with armour and ar/air and possibly or-tillery suppport, it's a whole other prospect. ;)