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CommanderCax
02-08-2008, 20:57
I plan to invent some impending background threat for my Dark Heresy campaign based on the Hereticus Tenebrae (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tyrant_Star). I thought about letting Komus, The Tyrant Star be a Cítan that was imprisoned by the Old Ones in a Warp bubble during the War in Heaven. Somehow Komus survived being cast into the warp. Maybe this was a side-effect of the Old Oneís attack or Komus was able to set up some kind of Gellar Field before being thrown into the warp. Now billions of years later he starts to reappear into real space from time to time for short moments leading to planetwide insanity and other strange phenomenons.

Anyway, I think about Komus being somehow corrupted by the influence of the warp/Chaos. Do you think tit is possible for a C'tan to be corrupted by Chaos at all? Maybe not corrupted in the classical sense, but more like driven insane similar to the Outsider?

I would really appreciate any opinions. Thanks in advance.

P.S.: Another question: Does anybody know whether the Old Ones also used the Webway or is it an Eldar invention?

Grimtuff
02-08-2008, 21:04
In my best impression of JP from work: "erm, no"

The Warp KILLS C'tan, it is anathema to them. Why must everything be susceptible to the influence of Chaos?

God, this really gets my goat. :rolleyes:

Lothlanathorian
02-08-2008, 21:12
Actually, his premise isn't that bad, so you can keep your goat.

I wouldn't have made it the Warp, though. Maybe something else. Maybe he had a device that protected him from the Warp, was shunted through it and ended up in some other dimension for a short period of time and he is trying to force his way back through and it is his rage driving people insane.

a helpless goat
02-08-2008, 21:33
AFASI C'tan are gods. star gods but gods still. However since they are imprisoned in status tombs and feed on stars. They seem to take a more active role than any of the other gods. Also the necrons don't use the warp at all. Even in the background saying that the old ones mastery of the warp frustrated the science of the necrons. It seems to me that the necroturni (sorry spelled wrong) would take up what their gods wanted. This is exentuated since later they all become demon robot things.

As for what would happen to a c'tan in the warp i don't know. Once again they are gods with no real form so can't be physically corupted. As for mentally the warp is emotion in a rolling form and the c'tan feed on the emotion of death. Who knows they may like it. However their desire for the pleasure of death may open them to slanish. And the deciver may like the plots of the archatech of fate. The nightbringer and knore need no explanation. However once again i think just how the choas gods can't corupt each other i dont think that they can be corrupted. Explaining this in a book would strain the players

So i proposs that the ctan find himself in the warp trapped. He is weak and dying. The Old ones hold him in this prision with a status generator on some world. Unfortunatly the eldar destroyed all his forces and he is alone. Then a chaos ship carrying a piece of the metal from necrons (caught in a status field thingy to prevent phase out.) strays to close. His prision has weaked enough to allow him for him to pocess the necrons metal. HE breaks the field easly and kills all. After returning to the real space he finds his form has been corupted and polluted by the chaos. You could even add a daemen that shares the body. He himself is not affected but the necrodermis is affected. It is also improvised from the metal of several warriors that have been damaged so it is not as powerful or functional. He is left with no choice as this is his only chance to destroy the old ones
generator and escape.

As to your last question i think the eldar created the webway before the fall but dont quote me on this.

Grimtuff
02-08-2008, 21:48
As for what would happen to a c'tan in the warp i don't know.

C'tan die when they enter the Warp. Why do you think they've built the Pylons on Cadia to hold back the EOT? If the Warp were to spread into realspace then the whole grand plan the C'tan have for the galaxy is at an end.

Knight_Yellow
02-08-2008, 22:18
Yup if theres one thing in the entire 40k background that is completely safe from Chaos taint its a Ctan.

Think of it like this...

We all know fictional vampires cannot touch holy water right? Think of the Water as the warp and the Vampire as the Ctan.

Onidan
02-08-2008, 22:22
Cītan just lack the warp presence to be corrupted, the soul so to speak. The chaos gods would have no place to get a grip on a Cītan.

Lord Damocles
02-08-2008, 22:51
The 'corrupted C'tan' just doesn't work. As people have already said, the warp is anathema to C'tan.

Some kind of creature like the 'Hadex Anomoly' might work better (plus there's no background to be contradicted anywhere).


P.S.: Another question: Does anybody know whether the Old Ones also used the Webway or is it an Eldar invention?
The Webway network was created by the Old Ones, but completed by the Eldar. How much use the Old Ones made of it is therefore up for debate I suppose. Certainly they must have been using parts of the system, since Cegorach was able to hide from Slaanesh in the Webway.

Kandarin
02-08-2008, 23:18
C'tan die when they enter the Warp. Why do you think they've built the Pylons on Cadia to hold back the EOT? If the Warp were to spread into realspace then the whole grand plan the C'tan have for the galaxy is at an end.

The fact that they want to hold the Warp back doesn't mean that the Warp kills C'tan that enter it.

Consider: The source of the C'tan's power is their absolute, godlike mastery of the physical universe and the laws thereof. When space is saturated with the Warp, those laws don't work anymore, stripping the C'tan of their power. That doesn't mean it is fatal to them, but it is easy to see how they could perceive such a thing as unacceptable.

chaos0xomega
03-08-2008, 00:54
Why is it that when I say that the warp is anathema to the C'tan, and that the C'tan would be destroyed by the warp if they made contact with it... I spawn a 20-page flamefest with 50-60 different warseers all telling me I am wrong, despite having quotes from the codex etc. but here is a thread with a whole bunch of people in it that all agree with me?

WHERE THE HELL WERE YOU PEOPLE IN THAT THREAD!?

Ahem, yes, no. Possession/Corruption wouldn't work. The Outsider is insane because he was tricked into eating other C'tan IIRC.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-08-2008, 01:01
Why do you think they've built the Pylons on Cadia to hold back the EOT?

They didn't. The Eye of Terror is only 11,000-20,000 years old. The Pylons are much, much older.

Feor
03-08-2008, 01:10
The idea of your C'Tan somehow creating a gellar bubble around himself just before being cast into the warp would be one way for him to have survived entrance into the warp. And several million years a hair's breadth from utter annihilation is bound to leave anyone a little... unbalanced.

One idea, if you want to tie it back into the existing fluff. Go with the interpretation that the Warp being anathema to the C'tan isn't that it kills them, just strips them of their powers and causes them great pain. Then, go with the idea that a C'tan as tehy appear on the battlefield of the 41st millenium is only a portion of the start god split off and encased in necrodermis. Then have the Tyrant Star be the Nightbringer's Flagship that was cast into the warp by the Old Ones near the end of the war. (don't remember what it was called, the Scythe or something) And the "insanity" part of it is that portion of the nightbringer that's been trapped powerless in the warp for countless millenia slowly regaining his power as his ship slowly, tentatively tries to push it's way back into realspace, and drives entire planets insane with the fear of death he instills in them.

Hellebore
03-08-2008, 01:44
Iron can be corrupted, earth can be corrupted, trees can be corrupted, glass can be corrupted, plasma can be corrupted, but when energy has the name 'c'tan' it can't be corrupted?

The warp corrupts non living matter, it corrupts energy. The idea that it can't corrupt a c'tan is preposterous. They are completely natural realworld entities. They don't use voodoo anymore than a star uses it. As everything in the galaxy is susceptible to warp corruption they should be too.

The fact that they have absolutely no defense against the warp only strengthens the point - how can something be so vulnerable to warp and yet immune to its taint?

Hellebore

Dominus_Serui
03-08-2008, 02:02
I was under the impression that the C'tan were not 'completely natural' and that they were...for lack of a better word...gods...in their own right - isn't it plausible then that given they have their own powerbase in an antithesis to the Warp that meens that their weakness is not so much that they are weak to the presence of the Warp and the entities that exist within but that the Warp is FATAL to them.

It is not plausible that their inability to exist within warp isn't so much the result of any weak-point within their phsilogy, but simply their fatal flaw in their existance...calling upon that fact would that not explain why C'tan weaponry is so deadly against Daemons? That in a matter/anti-matter way, their contact is to negate eachother? ((Ok, I know that the matter/anti-matter thing isn't true science or...whatever...I'm not a science person - but you get the theory I'm referencing and I'm not trying to start a debate on matter/anti-matter theory.))

Hellebore
03-08-2008, 02:19
Well the necron codex simply says that they are masters of the natural laws. They can stretch physics to its breaking point.

I once said they were universal lawyers looking for loopholes in cosmological law. They are still bound by physics, they can't break it.

C'tan can't (lol) morph their energy into lollipops, they aren't gods, just immensely large energy beings compressed into a small size capable of commanding the laws of physics. Commanding, not breaking.

Hellebore

chaos0xomega
03-08-2008, 03:07
Iron can be corrupted, earth can be corrupted, trees can be corrupted, glass can be corrupted, plasma can be corrupted, but when energy has the name 'c'tan' it can't be corrupted?

The warp corrupts non living matter, it corrupts energy. The idea that it can't corrupt a c'tan is preposterous. They are completely natural realworld entities. They don't use voodoo anymore than a star uses it. As everything in the galaxy is susceptible to warp corruption they should be too.

The fact that they have absolutely no defense against the warp only strengthens the point - how can something be so vulnerable to warp and yet immune to its taint?

Hellebore

None of those things can be corrupted. It can only be transformed by the Warp, which is a bit different. The corruption that the OP referred to isn't merely becoming twisted by the warp into something grotesque and disgusting (like a warpspawn), it's being possessed/turned to the side of the Chaos Gods.

Hellebore
03-08-2008, 03:47
None of those things can be corrupted. It can only be transformed by the Warp, which is a bit different. The corruption that the OP referred to isn't merely becoming twisted by the warp into something grotesque and disgusting (like a warpspawn), it's being possessed/turned to the side of the Chaos Gods.

Turned to the side of chaos? Well let's see; a tank that is warped by chaos has been 'turned' to chaos hasn't it? Or would it still be used for good?

Daemons can possess pretty much anything, the only limiting factor is how long their host body can survive the possession.

What is 'serve'? It is doing what someone else wants you to do. Our brains form actions that our bodies perform.

A c'tan doesn't have a soul that a chaos god can eat, but it does have a 'mind' and just as the electrical conduits in a hive city can be corrupted by chaos, so too can neural synapses.

Ergo, the warp can corrupt the 'mind' of a c'tan which affects its actions and thus causes it to serve chaos.

Chaos doesn't get a soul out of the bargain, but the power of a c'tan is pretty immense and all the souls it will send to its chosen god would more than make up for it...

Hellebore

Kandarin
03-08-2008, 04:07
The idea of your C'Tan somehow creating a gellar bubble around himself just before being cast into the warp would be one way for him to have survived entrance into the warp. And several million years a hair's breadth from utter annihilation is bound to leave anyone a little... unbalanced.

I like this idea. The C'tan doesn't even need to have been corrupted by Warp energy. Just seeing the things that go on in the Warp would be enough to drive any being insane, be they mortal or star-god.

Ubermensch Commander
03-08-2008, 05:27
Yknow i am wondering why people arent first asking "if the warp is COMPLETLY anathema to the C'tan space ameoba(yes that was all they were) how are able to use pyschic like abilities and bend reality?"
Ok C'tan are entities streched over light years that feed on stars. Whoop de fraggin doo. So how do they bend reality? That is Warpcraft, pure and simply. Or the Deceiver messing with peoples heads? Again...Warpcraft.

But as for the original topic, in the poorly written fluff of the Necrons, which would somehow have you believe they built Pylons to hold back a warp storm(Eye o Terror) that didnt exist, or that somehow the Nightbringer imprinted the aspect of Death on Humanity(never mind HUMANS weren't around at that time), the fluff also stated that the warp is Anatham to Ctan so they would go "Aieee im warping...warrrpppiinnng!" and go BYE BYE. Never mind how beings like this survived against the Old Ones in the first place(yknow with the Old Ones master over the warp(that little thing that is anathema to them), ability to create races like the Slann and the Eldar(inherently psychic and there able to bitch smack them around), it is currently written that no they would not be corrupted, they would just pop. Frankly i like Hellebores line of questioning. The warp is literally everywhere. It might not be doing that whole Warp/realspace overlap, but Chaos has been shown to corrupt even inanimate matter. Why would space ameobas be immune? They were just parasites who fed on stars.

sydbridges
03-08-2008, 05:56
They didn't. The Eye of Terror is only 11,000-20,000 years old. The Pylons are much, much older.

I though the pylons had been put there not to deal with the Eye of Terror, but with the Eldar who used to live there before they opened the Eye of Terror. Same basic purpose - suppress that warp crap the C'tan don't like, but now instead of suppressing it because the Eldar are there, using it, suppressing it because the warp spills out there from the birth of Slaanesh.

Anyways, same deal as the rest, I'm pretty sure the C'tan don't get permanently corrupted by Chaos. I remember an old FAQ ruling about whether or not a C'tan was immune to some Chaos sorcery which turned an enemy model into a chaos spawn - the answer was no, he's not, but he will turn back into a C'tan afterwards and at that point he will likely have a grudge against the sorcerer. The C'tan aren't immune to the effects of the Warp, but the Warp doesn't seem to have the power to fundamentally change what a C'tan is - corruption by Chaos is a temporary inconvenience.

I could see a C'tan in a Gellar field in the Warp going crazy not because the Warp was corrupting him but because he's surrounded by a substance that he either intensely hates or is lethal to him, and millions (or billions, as you said, although I think that would actually predate the War in Heaven?) of years in a situation like that would probably wear on most things' sanity.

On the other hand, given that the Deceiver went around explaining to the other C'tan that C'tan were delicious for no apparent reason besides "it seemed amusing at the time, and who wants to win the War in Heaven, anyways?", it's quite likely that to something that isn't on par with a C'tan, they seem crazy regardless. The Outsider would then be remarkable not because mortals find him crazy, but because even other C'tan/similar beings of power look at him and say, "There is something wrong with you."

So, while he might not be corrupted by the Warp as in he's a Chaos C'tan, you could probably have him be extra insane, not because he's corrupted by Chaos, but because he's had a very stressful time.

CommanderCax
03-08-2008, 11:18
Thanks for all the replies so far. They are really very helpful and highly appreciated. Even though I somehow had feared to open a can of worms...


C'tan die when they enter the Warp.

There is no precedence, is there?


Turned to the side of chaos? Well let's see; a tank that is warped by chaos has been 'turned' to chaos hasn't it? Or would it still be used for good?

With corrupted I also didn't really mean turned to a pawn of the Chaos Gods or something, but more like corrupted in the sense of being weird and acting kind of insane and unpredictable (chaotic)... I'm no native speaking, so perhaps thats why its a little misleading what I meant.


Iron can be corrupted, earth can be corrupted, trees can be corrupted, glass can be corrupted, plasma can be corrupted, but when energy has the name 'c'tan' it can't be corrupted?

I could see a C'tan in a Gellar field in the Warp going crazy not because the Warp was corrupting him but because he's surrounded by a substance that he either intensely hates or is lethal to him, and millions (or billions, as you said, although I think that would actually predate the War in Heaven?) of years in a situation like that would probably wear on most things' sanity.
So, while he might not be corrupted by the Warp as in he's a Chaos C'tan, you could probably have him be extra insane, not because he's corrupted by Chaos, but because he's had a very stressful time.

That's what I more less thought. The C'tan became near to insane because of what sydbridges nicely described. Maybe its Necrodermis got 'corrupted'/'warped' due to the Old One weapon or due to being million/billion years near/within the warp (just like the tank Hellebore mentioned, probably in less time...) and the C'tan is now more or less trapped/imprisoned in its own (warped) Necrodermis. So, its own 'skin' became its nemesis and everything in its vicinity is also slowly warped, thereby becoming unfit for consumption. A little like King Midas in real world mythology...

Do you think this is a possibility?

Rabid Bunny 666
03-08-2008, 13:46
Perhaps if you use the Outsider as your C'tan instead of a new one, hes batsh!t crazy because he ate other C'tan, but they are still "alive" and constantly talk to him.

I don't get all these C'tan in the warp posts (not you CommanderCax) saying they could survive, its written that the Warp is an anametha to the C'tan, you don't hear people claiming that Olanus Pious was immune to Boltgun shells, its completely against the grain of whats written.

Lothlanathorian
03-08-2008, 17:03
@Hellebore:

If you look at the C'Tan the way I, personally, do, it might be easier to accept all of the things you are opposing here.

I see the C'Tan as the realspace equivalent of a Chaos god. The gods have to survive in the Warp as realspace is so vastly different from them and what they are. They might be able to do things to influence realspace, but they can't survive in it.
Similarly, the C'Tan couldn't survive long, unprotected, in the Warp. They are wholely a creature of realspace and no part of them has anything to do with the Warp. They can do things (build stuff) that can affect the Warp, but they can't survive in it.

Basically, the C'Tan are to realspace as the Chaos gods are to the Warp. They are the other side of the coin.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-08-2008, 17:21
Not really. The C'tan are physical beings, just like Humanity and Orks. The Chaos Gods are warp storms. The Chaos Gods are not beings, they are not "alive" as we know it. They are neutral energy.

a helpless goat
03-08-2008, 18:11
I tend to lean more to the side that C'tan are not physicall beings. the general accent is the warp kills them/they can't control it/it drives them insane whatever. This means they dont exist with in the warp. however the ctan we field are not the gods. They are a necrodemis which is somemetal that they can inhabit. killing them doesn't kill the gods it just destroys their corparal form. Going and finding a huge space amebia and capping forever killing it doesn't work either. also this space ameoba is not light years wide because the old ones put it in a status tomb on a planet. So what has can defy the laws of physics (or bend them) but able to be compressed into tiny (relativly) spaces, steals from stars, and cannot be killed. To me thats energy. Pure energy. like the Haddex effect as mentioned.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-08-2008, 18:46
Of course they are energy beings. That doesn't stop them being life forms though. A God is merely a being powerful enough to say he is and prove it. There are no requirements such as omniscience, just raw power. C'Tan are not Gods, just stupidly powerful beings.

The_Warsmith
03-08-2008, 19:15
couldn't the same be said of the chaos gods?

Slaaneshi Slave
03-08-2008, 19:21
No, the Chaos Gods are warp storms.

The_Warsmith
03-08-2008, 19:32
they are very powerful things yet not truely 'gods' since they are storms of warp so it could be argued that they are beings just like the c'tan

Slaaneshi Slave
03-08-2008, 19:58
The main difference is that the C'Tan have to interact with something to alter it. The Chaos Gods do not.

madd0ct0r
03-08-2008, 21:26
But they do interact. Nothing spontaneously sprouts mutations.

Pyskers can attract demons and sorcerors can bind demons into other, possibly inanimate objects (like swords, trees, Tau Etherals, rhinos). But the demons are splinters of their patron God.

Sekhmet
03-08-2008, 21:30
Warp is not an instant-win vs C'tan at all!

Imagine a C'tan as a Tau with 11ty billion years of evolution. If a Tau enters the warp, he doesn't instantly melt. C'tan don't either. They just don't have any specific defense against warp-based attacks besides a gellar field.

And since C'tan can basically make technology out of thin air (seeing as they have an abundant source of nano machines surrounding them at all times), I'd imagine a stasis pod and gellar field would be simple to construct. He'd then just ride out the storm until he got spat out into real space, like a space hulk. I doubt he'd be corrupted by chaos in the literal sense, but he'd probably be somewhat hungry I'd imagine.

CommanderCax
03-08-2008, 22:00
Imagine a C'tan as a Tau with 11ty billion years of evolution. If a Tau enters the warp, he doesn't instantly melt. C'tan don't either. They just don't have any specific defense against warp-based attacks besides a gellar field.

I suppose about all material things are more or less torn apart when entering the warp except they are somehow protected by certain wards or fields. A Tau is probably dissolved in the same way as a human or eldar. The fact that a Tau is less susceptible to corruption and possession in real space is due to its tiny warp presence/soul, but it certainly does not help if it enters the warp directly.
I was just wondering whether a C'tan's Necrodermis can be corrupted or how a C'tan would fare after millions of years enclosed in a Gellar Field sort of bubble trapped within the warp.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-08-2008, 22:13
But they do interact. Nothing spontaneously sprouts mutations.

Pyskers can attract demons and sorcerors can bind demons into other, possibly inanimate objects (like swords, trees, Tau Etherals, rhinos). But the demons are splinters of their patron God.

Mutations have absolutely nothing to do with daemons. Things do spontaneously sprout mutations when the Chaos Gods think about it...

Sekhmet
03-08-2008, 22:28
I suppose about all material things are more or less torn apart when entering the warp except they are somehow protected by certain wards or fields. A Tau is probably dissolved in the same way as a human or eldar. The fact that a Tau is less susceptible to corruption and possession in real space is due to its tiny warp presence/soul, but it certainly does not help if it enters the warp directly.
I was just wondering whether a C'tan's Necrodermis can be corrupted or how a C'tan would fare after millions of years enclosed in a Gellar Field sort of bubble trapped within the warp.

No they aren't torn apart when entering the warp. Ships enter the warp without gellar fields all the time. More often that not the crew all dies, but the ship itself tends to be fine.

Orks don't use gellar fields when they travel through the warp, and we don't see chaos orks, do we? In fact, they tend to get STRONGER when traveling through the warp as they have to fight off daemons the entire journey.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-08-2008, 22:38
We do see Chaos Orks, but that's another story...

Frecus
03-08-2008, 23:07
... when the Chaos Gods think about it...

Cogitant ergo sunt.;)

The chaos gods are as much alive as the C'tan, they are simply the other side of the warp/realspace coin.

I like the gellar field bubble with a trapped C'tan idea. Kinda like the WHFB ' dark master' from Mordheim, who needs the warpstone there to stay in realspace. A C'tan in the warp might die without aid though... DRowning in the sea of energy.

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

Goruax
03-08-2008, 23:23
So, while he might not be corrupted by the Warp as in he's a Chaos C'tan, you could probably have him be extra insane, not because he's corrupted by Chaos, but because he's had a very stressful time.

lolbuckets

I get it now!
C'Tan are just bored with their jobs!

That's why they have nigh-on xenocidal harvests every couple of millenia!
If only their bosses would give them a raise every now and then, we'd be spared all this planning, destruction and other shenanigans :D

chaos0xomega
04-08-2008, 00:06
Turned to the side of chaos? Well let's see; a tank that is warped by chaos has been 'turned' to chaos hasn't it? Or would it still be used for good?

Daemons can possess pretty much anything, the only limiting factor is how long their host body can survive the possession.

What is 'serve'? It is doing what someone else wants you to do. Our brains form actions that our bodies perform.

A c'tan doesn't have a soul that a chaos god can eat, but it does have a 'mind' and just as the electrical conduits in a hive city can be corrupted by chaos, so too can neural synapses.

Ergo, the warp can corrupt the 'mind' of a c'tan which affects its actions and thus causes it to serve chaos.

Chaos doesn't get a soul out of the bargain, but the power of a c'tan is pretty immense and all the souls it will send to its chosen god would more than make up for it...

Hellebore

To bad that runs counter to the established fluff of the C'tan.

And also to bad that it still doesn't hold true. A tank that has been touched by the warp is merely a ****ed-up tank. It isn't "corrupted" or "possessed" unless a Daemon enters it, and as of yet, I have yet to see a Daemon capable of possessing a vehicle that wasn't designed for exactly such a purpose (read: defilers, soulgrinders, chaos warhounds). If you have fluff support please feel free to refute me if you can back up the claim.


Yknow i am wondering why people arent first asking "if the warp is COMPLETLY anathema to the C'tan space ameoba(yes that was all they were) how are able to use pyschic like abilities and bend reality?"
Ok C'tan are entities streched over light years that feed on stars. Whoop de fraggin doo. So how do they bend reality? That is Warpcraft, pure and simply. Or the Deceiver messing with peoples heads? Again...Warpcraft.

Just because they have powers that might seem like "warpcraft" doesn't mean they actually have to utilize the warp for their powers. Don't be so closed minded. Also, I don't know where people get the whole "bend reality" thing from. Nowhere does it ever say that a C'tan can do that. They aren't eve Gods, just energy beings of immense power.


Never mind how beings like this survived against the Old Ones in the first place(yknow with the Old Ones master over the warp(that little thing that is anathema to them), ability to create races like the Slann and the Eldar(inherently psychic and there able to bitch smack them around), it is currently written that no they would not be corrupted, they would just pop.

If you read the background, you'd realize that the C'tan were losing the war against the Old Ones (which is why they required the Necrontyr, a cheap thow-away military unit), and that the ultimate downfall of the Old Ones came as a result of their (and their creations) over use of the warp in the fight against them.


I though the pylons had been put there not to deal with the Eye of Terror, but with the Eldar who used to live there before they opened the Eye of Terror. Same basic purpose - suppress that warp crap the C'tan don't like, but now instead of suppressing it because the Eldar are there, using it, suppressing it because the warp spills out there from the birth of Slaanesh.

That's what I always understood.


There is no precedence, is there?

Medusa V. There was a bit of fluff that the Necrons goal was to set up Pylons to block out the Warp from the planet so they could feed on the trapped citizenry without risking destruction via the warp.


So, its own 'skin' became its nemesis and everything in its vicinity is also slowly warped, thereby becoming unfit for consumption. A little like King Midas in real world mythology...

Do you think this is a possibility?

That makes sense. Of course a C'tan can enter and exti a necrodermis at will, so this wouldn't really be an issue to it.


Not really. The C'tan are physical beings, just like Humanity and Orks. The Chaos Gods are warp storms. The Chaos Gods are not beings, they are not "alive" as we know it. They are neutral energy.

C'tan aren't physical, at least not in the sense that they are composed of matter. The fluff makes it pretty clear that they are semi-sentient clouds of pure energy (more or less).


Imagine a C'tan as a Tau with 11ty billion years of evolution. If a Tau enters the warp, he doesn't instantly melt. C'tan don't either. They just don't have any specific defense against warp-based attacks besides a gellar field.


There are big differences between the two.


And since C'tan can basically make technology out of thin air (seeing as they have an abundant source of nano machines surrounding them at all times), I'd imagine a stasis pod and gellar field would be simple to construct. He'd then just ride out the storm until he got spat out into real space, like a space hulk. I doubt he'd be corrupted by chaos in the literal sense, but he'd probably be somewhat hungry I'd imagine.

Did you make that up?

Hellebore
04-08-2008, 00:09
The difference between a chaos 'god' and the c'tan is that one is still bound by the constraints of reality, whilst the other is not.

Chaos is the mayhem universalis, the super mcguffin that can do anything - in short it's magic.

Thus a chaos god CAN effectively do whatever it wants, although it is constrained by the 'laws' of the warp, of which there are few and far between.

C'tan is a god to men as men are gods to sheep. Scaling the power up means that proportionately, something is more 'godlike' than something else. 40k, for all its fantasy is still pretty much grounded in our reality. The single out they have is the warp, which can make anything possible.

Thus there are no 'gods' in the biblical sense, everything evolved or was artificially created by another evolved entity. The 'gods' are only called thus because of the proportionate power they wield when compared to their followers.

A giant sentient plasma cloud is not in itself godlike, just 'powerful' (in the sense of literal energy).

EDIT: Would you care to elaborate on that Chaosomega? Apart from the 'warp is anathema to c'tan' line what else is there? The logic progression I wrote doesn't seem to have any flaws in it.


Hellebore

Koryphaus
04-08-2008, 00:25
To bad that runs counter to the established fluff of the C'tan.

And also to bad that it still doesn't hold true. A tank that has been touched by the warp is merely a ****ed-up tank. It isn't "corrupted" or "possessed" unless a Daemon enters it, and as of yet, I have yet to see a Daemon capable of possessing a vehicle that wasn't designed for exactly such a purpose (read: defilers, soulgrinders, chaos warhounds). If you have fluff support please feel free to refute me if you can back up the claim.

Erm, Parasitic Possession in the 3.5 Chaos dex? Possessed cruisers in BFG? A Warhound isn't specifically designed to be possessed either, being built by the Imperium, who don't generally go in for that sort of thing..

However, I agree that most possessed machines and vehicles are designed for it (eg, the daemon engine batteries of the Iron Warriors and Word Bearers in Storm of Iron and Dark Apostle respectively).


If you read the background, you'd realize that the C'tan were losing the war against the Old Ones (which is why they required the Necrontyr, a cheap thow-away military unit)..

No, the Necrontyr were waging war on the Old Ones. The Necrontyr had superior technology, but were constantly outmaneuvered because the Old Ones had complete master of the Webway. Step by step, the Necrontyr were pushed back. That is when they turned to the C'Tan, in an attempt to use them as the ultimate superweapon.

CommanderCax
04-08-2008, 07:34
So, its own 'skin' became its nemesis and everything in its vicinity is also slowly warped, thereby becoming unfit for consumption. A little like King Midas in real world mythology...

Do you think this is a possibility?That makes sense. Of course a C'tan can enter and exti a necrodermis at will, so this wouldn't really be an issue to it.

Ok, but lets assume the Necrodermis is so infused with warp energy that the C'tan is not able to leave its warped Necrodermis-skin at will anymore. It became an uncrossable border so to speak and the C'tan feels as if its skin is literally aflame all the time. Now imagine the pain of being always aflame and everything you approach turns to ash. This will probably leave your mind a little unstable...

Slaaneshi Slave
04-08-2008, 08:49
No, the Necrontyr were waging war on the Old Ones. The Necrontyr had superior technology, but were constantly outmaneuvered because the Old Ones had complete master of the Webway. Step by step, the Necrontyr were pushed back. That is when they turned to the C'Tan, in an attempt to use them as the ultimate superweapon.

They were still losing the War. Initially when C'tan helped to tip the balance, but after they began eating each other, and the Eldar Wraith constructs began taking their toll the Necrons were being pushed back once more. With only four C'Tan left they were not enough to tip the scales any longer.

oCoYoRoAoKo
04-08-2008, 09:42
Chaos 'Gods' arent really gods though, they are just really powerful, daemonic beings (replace daemonic with energy and you basically have a C'tan). In the same way that a C'tan has no influence over the warp, the chaos gods have no influence over realspace (the warp does, but not the gods directly) - i mean, when was the last time you saw some chaos cultist summon Khorne himself? As for a C'tan being corrupted by the warp, if you take a look at the old chaos book, you could indeed turn them into spawn. However, this 'spawnination' only extends to the C'tan's physical necrodermis shell and it is noted that once the C'tan regains control of his shell the scorcerer is pretty much done for. Finally the warp does NOT easily kill a C'tan. remember that the void dragon got a full on blast from the warp canons of a (maybe many, i cant remember) blackstone fortress and came out alive (albeit weakened).

Now, it would be possible to posess an empty C'Tan body (which would possibly make the scariest daemon-thing ever) and even manipulate a occupied one but thats as far as a Chaos-C'tan would go im afraid. This is different from what the OP proposes however which seems to be quite feasable.

Cy.

Sekhmet
04-08-2008, 09:51
They were still losing the War. Initially when C'tan helped to tip the balance, but after they began eating each other, and the Eldar Wraith constructs began taking their toll the Necrons were being pushed back once more. With only four C'Tan left they were not enough to tip the scales any longer.

The last sentence is easily debatable, but that's the gist of it.

Poseidal
04-08-2008, 09:56
Now, it would be possible to posess an empty C'Tan body (which would possibly make the scariest daemon-thing ever) and even manipulate a occupied one but thats as far as a Chaos-C'tan would go im afraid. This is different from what the OP proposes however which seems to be quite feasable.
In practice, this could very well be what the Avatar of Khaine is.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-08-2008, 11:47
Chaos 'Gods' arent really gods though, they are just really powerful, daemonic beings (replace daemonic with energy and you basically have a C'tan).

The Chaos Gods are not Daemons.


In the same way that a C'tan has no influence over the warp, the chaos gods have no influence over realspace (the warp does, but not the gods directly) - i mean, when was the last time you saw some chaos cultist summon Khorne himself?
The Chaos Gods are the Warp, and the Warp is the Chaos Gods. The reason they cannot be summoned is, again, because they are not Daemons. Imagine our world is a grain of sand at the bottom of the ocean. Khorne is the Pacific, Tzeentch is the Atlantic etc. How can you transport the entire ocean into grain of sand?


As for a C'tan being corrupted by the warp, if you take a look at the old chaos book, you could indeed turn them into spawn. However, this 'spawnination' only extends to the C'tan's physical necrodermis shell and it is noted that once the C'tan regains control of his shell the scorcerer is pretty much done for. Finally the warp does NOT easily kill a C'tan. remember that the void dragon got a full on blast from the warp canons of a (maybe many, i cant remember) blackstone fortress and came out alive (albeit weakened).

The Blackstone Fortresses don't fire the warp. They take an amount of warp energy and use it to power weapon systems. Distort Cannons on the other hand, tear a hole through to the Warp.


Cy.


Bye!

oCoYoRoAoKo
04-08-2008, 14:04
The Chaos Gods are not Daemons.

The Chaos Gods are the Warp, and the Warp is the Chaos Gods. The reason they cannot be summoned is, again, because they are not Daemons. Imagine our world is a grain of sand at the bottom of the ocean. Khorne is the Pacific, Tzeentch is the Atlantic etc. How can you transport the entire ocean into grain of sand?

The Blackstone Fortresses don't fire the warp. They take an amount of warp energy and use it to power weapon systems. Distort Cannons on the other hand, tear a hole through to the Warp.

Bye!

Actually, the Blackstone Fortresses are armed with warp-canons:


The Blackstone Fortresses were originally created as weapons in the first war against the C'tan, and were known to the ancient Eldar as the Talismans of Vaul. To capitalise on the C'tan's vulnerability to warp attacks the Fortresses were equipped with a warp-cannon that could create a devastating rip in space and an eruption of energy out of the Immaterium.


sounds like a big D-canon to me :P

as for the Chaos Gods being daemonic entities, its made pretty clear in the codex daemon book that they are. Daemons (as we know them) are simply the energy of the warp given form based around whichever god was creating them at the time (also in codex daemons). therefore, Chaos gods, and by extension, daemons, are part of the warp, and embody the warp but if they didnt exist (as they didnt when the old ones were origionally around - daemons and such only developed as a result of the emotions going round in the war in heaven - codex necrons i think) it would not stop the warp from existing.

Cy.

Sekhmet
04-08-2008, 18:46
The Chaos Gods are the Warp, and the Warp is the Chaos Gods. The reason they cannot be summoned is, again, because they are not Daemons. Imagine our world is a grain of sand at the bottom of the ocean. Khorne is the Pacific, Tzeentch is the Atlantic etc. How can you transport the entire ocean into grain of sand?

While chaos gods are the warp, the warp isn't chaos gods.

And your analogy of a grain of sand to the ocean is not correct in any level. You can't justify through evidence in fluff that the warp is larger or smaller than real space, it's just different.




The Blackstone Fortresses don't fire the warp. They take an amount of warp energy and use it to power weapon systems. Distort Cannons on the other hand, tear a hole through to the Warp.

Yeah actually, they do.

chaos0xomega
04-08-2008, 20:11
C'tan is a god to men as men are gods to sheep. Scaling the power up means that proportionately, something is more 'godlike' than something else. 40k, for all its fantasy is still pretty much grounded in our reality. The single out they have is the warp, which can make anything possible.


EDIT: Would you care to elaborate on that Chaosomega? Apart from the 'warp is anathema to c'tan' line what else is there? The logic progression I wrote doesn't seem to have any flaws in it.


Hellebore


C'tan is a god to men as men are gods to sheep. Scaling the power up means that proportionately, something is more 'godlike' than something else. 40k, for all its fantasy is still pretty much grounded in our reality. The single out they have is the warp, which can make anything possible.

When you say 40k is pretty much grounded in our reality you lost all credibility you could have claimed. I'm sorry but that's just dead wrong. How is the fact that the 40k version of the milky way galaxy is several times larger than the real world 40k galaxy "grounded in our reality?" If you don't believe me, Terra/Earth is on the outside edge/very close to it of the real world milky way. It's almost dead center of the map in the 40k galaxy (and there are a lot of stars past the point where it should be). Contrary to popular belief, the Tau Empire for instance, is not at the edge of the galaxy. The 5th edition rulebook shows quite clearly that stars (and even planets) exist farther out than the Tau Empire. A lot farther out in fact.

Anyway, rather than continuing on with reason after reason about why it isn't grounded in reality, I will further refute you. The Necron codex makes it pretty clear that the C'tan are/were terrified of psychic powers and warp-based entities, and that they had no control over it, and that it severely weakened, if not outright destroyed them because they were so vulnerable to it. The Old Ones found out about this, and began creating more and more warp-based critters, which severely weakened the barrier between the warp and the real world, which brought about the enslaver plague which forced the C'tan into hibernation. There are also the blackstone fortresses, and the fact that the much stated mission of the C'tan is to ultimately seperate the Warp from realspace, including the whole pariah-gene nonsense.


Erm, Parasitic Possession in the 3.5 Chaos dex? Possessed cruisers in BFG? A Warhound isn't specifically designed to be possessed either, being built by the Imperium, who don't generally go in for that sort of thing.

Parasitic possession isn't daemonic possession. I always took parasitic possession to mean a nurgle-esque creature of some-sort (of sentience) took control of the vehicle. As for possessed cruisers, in the novel Dark Adeptus there was one such cruiser in it. In reality it wasn't really possessed so much as a Daemon possessed it. I.E. there was actually a daemon living inside of it.You're probably going to totally misunderstand what I mean by that, what I am saying is that THE DAEMON LIVED INSIDE THE SHIP. Not inside the walls, but inside the crew space. I.E. the entire crew was replaced by a single large multi-tentacled (IIRC) daemon that was plugged into various onboard ship systems, but was in every other sense completely tangible, and was manipulating things manually. As for warhounds, the fluff I recalled reading was that the warhounds built by the Dark Mechanicus were designed for possession in the same way as a defiler or soulgrinder. The ones that had fled into the eye with horus weren't possessed, but their original crews had fused with the titan itself, making it... sort of possessed but not quite(in the same way of my interpretation of parasitic possession, and in the same way that the Dark Adeptus cruiser was possessed).


Ok, but lets assume the Necrodermis is so infused with warp energy that the C'tan is not able to leave its warped Necrodermis-skin at will anymore. It became an uncrossable border so to speak and the C'tan feels as if its skin is literally aflame all the time. Now imagine the pain of being always aflame and everything you approach turns to ash. This will probably leave your mind a little unstable...

Yes, but at that point the Necrodermis itself would become a different entity all together, and the C'tan would essentially be a prisoner inside of it with absolutely no control over movement or anything else for that matter. Also, consider the fact that a C'tan wouldn't feel pain.. as it's an energy being, and probably wouldn't much give a damn if planets and the like turned to ash.


Finally the warp does NOT easily kill a C'tan. remember that the void dragon got a full on blast from the warp canons of a (maybe many, i cant remember) blackstone fortress and came out alive (albeit weakened).

IIRC, it was just one blackstone fortress, which says something considering that it was originally thought that all 6-8 of the blackstone fortresses were required in order to destroy the C'tan.


The Chaos Gods are not Daemons.


TBH, I've always understood the chaos gods to be super-charged daemons,but ones that had special rules and natural laws that restricted their power moreso than a normal daemon (hence cannot manifest into the materium).

CommanderCax
04-08-2008, 21:34
Yes, but at that point the Necrodermis itself would become a different entity all together, and the C'tan would essentially be a prisoner inside of it with absolutely no control over movement or anything else for that matter.

Really? I'm not so sure. But it is hard to prove in any case as such a thing never happened.


Also, consider the fact that a C'tan wouldn't feel pain.. as it's an energy being, and probably wouldn't much give a damn if planets and the like turned to ash.

Firstly, I always thought the warp or proximity to the warp caused some sort of fear or pain to a C'tan. The reason/argument 'it's an energy being' is a bit weak because it states nothing. This 'energy being' can become insane (eg. the Outsider) so I do not think it is too far-fetched to assume it can also somehow feel someting akin to pain or discomfort.
Secondly, I think it would absolutely 'give a damn' when all sustenance it approaches is turned to ash (ie. is warped) just by being in immediate vicinity of it. (btw in regard to the C'tan 'aflame' and 'turned to ash' was just an analogy for 'corrupted' and/or 'being warped'.)



TBH, I've always understood the chaos gods to be super-charged daemons,but ones that had special rules and natural laws that restricted their power moreso than a normal daemon (hence cannot manifest into the materium).

Nope. Daemons and gods are two different things. Both are warp-entities indeed. Just as a giant sequoia and a fly are both living creatures. Still they are distinct and it is important to keep this distinction in mind.
Daemons are not so closely bound to the warp. They are seperate from the fabric of their universe, and do not flow and change with it like gods do. A daemon is 'born' when a Chaos Power gives up little of its accumulated power to create a seperate being. This power binds a collection of senses, thoughts and purposes together, giving a personality and consciousness that moves within the warp. The Chaos Power can reclaim the power and independence it has given to its daemon children at any time, thus ensuring their loyalty. It is only through the loss of this power that a daemon can be 'killed'. Its mind dissolves into the whirls and currents of warp space.
Furthermore the lesser Chaos Powers (ie. gods) can also give birth to a daemon. The ripples of warpspace create short lived and very minor Powers, some of whom invest all their energy in a single daemon. They 'become' the daemon, and gain independence from the warp's ceaseless currents, exchanging the potential of greater power for the certainty of maintaining their current energy.


And your analogy of a grain of sand to the ocean is not correct in any level. You can't justify through evidence in fluff that the warp is larger or smaller than real space, it's just different.

Parameters of size (ie. length, width, height, diameter, perimeter, area, volume) are physical dimensions and are probably inadequate to describe the warp. The warp simply does not follow physical laws and surely has no size as such (at least not one in any sense comparable to normal space (which is difficult enough to evaluate...)).

chaos0xomega
04-08-2008, 21:42
Firstly, I always thought the warp or proximity to the warp caused some sort of fear or pain to a C'tan. The reason/argument 'it's an energy being' is a bit weak because it states nothing. This 'energy being' can become insane (eg. the Outsider) so I do not think it is too far-fetched to assume it can also somehow feel someting akin to pain or discomfort.
Secondly, I think it would absolutely 'give a damn' when all sustenance it approaches is turned to ash (ie. is warped) just by being in immediate vicinity of it. (BTW in regard to the C'tan 'aflame' and 'turned to ash' was just an analogy for 'corrupted' and/or 'being warped'.)

I don't know about pain, but fear yes. But feeling an emotion and a physical reaction to an external stimulus are different things.

As for sustenance, a C'tans "food" is fear (somehow...). As long as whatever it's trying to "eat" is scared ******** before it turns to ash or a flower pot or a whale or a bag of chips or whatever it is, the C'tan would be fine. You can't (I think) destroy fear.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-08-2008, 21:48
C'tan do not eat fear. Fear is merely flavouring which makes it's food (raw energy) taste nicer.

chaos0xomega
04-08-2008, 22:07
Whatever, you can't destroy energy then(conservation of energy and thermodynamics and whatnot). So it still wouldn't be an issue.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-08-2008, 22:23
You can't destroy it, but it can be transfered to alternate dimensions... Such as the warp. :p

Sekhmet
04-08-2008, 22:28
Whatever, you can't destroy energy then(conservation of energy and thermodynamics and whatnot). So it still wouldn't be an issue.

But you can turn energy into matter.

Hm...

Hellebore
05-08-2008, 06:06
When you say 40k is pretty much grounded in our reality you lost all credibility you could have claimed. I'm sorry but that's just dead wrong. How is the fact that the 40k version of the milky way galaxy is several times larger than the real world 40k galaxy "grounded in our reality?" If you don't believe me, Terra/Earth is on the outside edge/very close to it of the real world milky way. It's almost dead center of the map in the 40k galaxy (and there are a lot of stars past the point where it should be). Contrary to popular belief, the Tau Empire for instance, is not at the edge of the galaxy. The 5th edition rulebook shows quite clearly that stars (and even planets) exist farther out than the Tau Empire. A lot farther out in fact.


Umm, ok. I completely disagree as the most current starmap of the galaxy in the 5th ed rulebook shows, the Earth is in an outer spiral of the Milky Way, and NOT in the centre. Perhaps you've confused the Segmentae Majoris with the actual centre of the galaxy where the squats used to live?

The galaxy is ~100,000 light years across, where in 40k does it say it is 'several times larger'? 200,000, 300,000? You've made claims, now provide proof.

Here is mine for the position of the Earth:
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.news.wisc.edu/newsphotos/images/Milky_Way_galaxy_sun05.jpg&imgrefurl=http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/blobrana/database/galaxy.html&h=2700&w=2700&sz=1928&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=KrdLc3w8L_4zBM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmilky%2Bway%2Bearth%2Bposition%26um%3 D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_way
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mrao.cam.ac.uk/projects/galcen/schematic.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mrao.cam.ac.uk/projects/galcen/index.html&h=512&w=512&sz=19&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=Bgy3vjyZTG3ARM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dearth%2Bpsosition%2Bin%2Bgalaxy%26um% 3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DG

The position of the earth in the orange 'Orion' arm:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Milky_Way_Arms.svg

As you can see, it isn't right out at the edge, nor right in the middle. If you turn the 40k map on its side you'll find the Earth sitting about where it does in the above images.

There is no 'correct' orientation for the galaxy, so long as the Earth is in the right position relative to the centre in the map I don't know how you can get iit wrong. Even a cursory look at pretty much ANY galactic map GW have ever produced shows Terra sitting off centre. I have no idea where you're getting this from.



Anyway, rather than continuing on with reason after reason about why it isn't grounded in reality, I will further refute you. The Necron codex makes it pretty clear that the C'tan are/were terrified of psychic powers and warp-based entities, and that they had no control over it, and that it severely weakened, if not outright destroyed them because they were so vulnerable to it. The Old Ones found out about this, and began creating more and more warp-based critters, which severely weakened the barrier between the warp and the real world, which brought about the enslaver plague which forced the C'tan into hibernation. There are also the blackstone fortresses, and the fact that the much stated mission of the C'tan is to ultimately seperate the Warp from realspace, including the whole pariah-gene nonsense.


Quotes please.
EVERYTHING in the real world is either destroyed or hideously warped by warp energy that isn't a special vulnerability of the C'tan. Shoot a human into warp space and they are destroyed. Space ships are warped and corrupted if they don't have intact gellar fields.

A blackstone fortress can destroy stars and planets - why WOULDN'T it destroy a C'tan because it's made of the same stuff? Everything you've mentioned is deadly against non c'tan matter and energy as well, simply strengthening the assertion that the c'tan are in fact purely reality based creatures.



[...] beings of pure energy that had spawned in the birth of stars themselves.[...] feeding upon the solar flares and magnetic storms of bloated red giants.


Pure energy. birthed by stars. eating electromagnetic radiation.

Where in all that makes them any more or less susceptible to the warp than a regular star or planet?



The power of these creatures was awesome, the raw energy of stars made animate [...]




The c'tan empire of destruction was sent reeling; the forces of the Empyrean were anathema to them and, for all the hellish destruction they unleashed, they could not stay the Old Ones' relentless advance.


Last time I checked, when you shoot a beam of warp energy at a tank, it explodes just as much as anything else. Or a star, or a planet, or a tree, or a rock.

The warp is 'anathema' to reality in general, otherwise psychic powers would be completely pointless.



They instigated a great warding, a plan to forever defeat the magicks of the Old Ones by sealing off the material universe from the Empyrean.


Their warding was used to defeat the Old Ones, because they couldn't defend themselves against warp powers (anymore than a normal star or planet can defend itself against the warp - case in point the Eye of Terror).



They would allow the enslavers to take what was left and let the galaxy become a wasteland; the psyker swarm would die away and in time the galaxy would throw up new life for the C'tan to consume.


They were entirely concerned with their food source being destroyed, not with any threat the denizens of the warp could provide.


Hellebore

madd0ct0r
05-08-2008, 13:10
who are these enslaver's that keep being mentioned?


I agree with Commander Cax's interpretation of the god-deamon relationship.
How do ships survive the warp? I'm assuming sheilding but stuff still happens - spacehulks survive.

ADF
05-08-2008, 14:26
Enslavers are creatures that live some time of their life in the warp; when they sense a uncontrolled psyker, they use their powers and deform him into a portal that lets them slip into reality, killing the psyker in the process. With their extremely potent (alpha+) powers, they brainwash whole civilizations and turn them to slaves, from whence their name comes.

A enslaver looks like a jellyfish and has no limbs except some tentacles. They use mental levitation to get around, all corporal work they need is done by enslaved lifeforms.

Thanatos_elNyx
05-08-2008, 15:33
I don't think there is any possibility of Necrodermis being possessed by chaos.

Is there any precedent for such an occurance? I suspect that Necrodermis would have would have anti-chaos stuff built into it somewhat similar to Wraithbone, just it would be a lot better since Wraithbone is built to conduct psychic energy in the first place.

Ubermensch Commander
05-08-2008, 15:44
If ya read the Medusa V campaign ending for Necrons, we see the mere prescence of a warpstorm causing the C'tan discomfort. While not exactly definitive proof, it does infer, along with that whole "warp anathema to them" that Necrodermis could be Daemonically possessed and or mutated by the warp. Necrodermis, as far as it seems to be written, contains no inherent anti chaos properties. Matter of fact, NO, it is NOT immune to warp energies. Remember the old FAQ with psychich powers turning a Ctan into a Chaos Spawn? And then the complete BS rationilization of "he gets better" they threw in. We don't see a "Abaddon/Marneus Calgar just gets better" snippet thrown in. they are special characters. Dying it game doesnt remove them from the fluff. We get it GW, honest.

Defcon
05-08-2008, 17:11
I don't think there is any possibility of Necrodermis being possessed by chaos.

Is there any precedent for such an occurance? I suspect that Necrodermis would have would have anti-chaos stuff built into it somewhat similar to Wraithbone, just it would be a lot better since Wraithbone is built to conduct psychic energy in the first place.

The fact that Gift of Chaos can turn the Necrodermis into a chaos spawn, and that the C'tan is not specifically immune to it (which is shocking, since they ave enough moronic rules anyways). The dermis gets poofed, the C'tan just flitters away.

chaos0xomega
05-08-2008, 18:46
Umm, ok. I completely disagree as the most current starmap of the galaxy in the 5th ed rulebook shows, the Earth is in an outer spiral of the Milky Way, and NOT in the centre. Perhaps you've confused the Segmentae Majoris with the actual centre of the galaxy where the squats used to live?

READ! Terra is physically placed in the center of the 40k starmap. It may still be in an outer spiral of the milky way, but on the map it's shown to be roughly center. And much exists well beyond the outside limits of the galaxy.


http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i...icial%26sa%3DN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_way
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i...icial%26sa%3DG

Congratulations you have reinforced my point that Earth really exists towards the edge of the galaxy, and yet a hell of lot exists beyond this point in the 40k map. Hell, the Eye of Terror exists completely beyond the edge of the galaxy.


Even a cursory look at pretty much ANY galactic map GW have ever produced shows Terra sitting off centre. I have no idea where you're getting this from

I have an old 40k map poster thing from about 8 years ago that has Terra pretty much dead center of the map. It's a hell of a lot larger than some of the more recent maps, but it's till an official map.


The galaxy is ~100,000 light years across, where in 40k does it say it is 'several times larger'? 200,000, 300,000? You've made claims, now provide proof.


Look at the map and you tell me why stars, and major planets and celestial phenomena exist where there should only be the intergalactic void? Overlay an "actual" map of the milky way onto the 40k map, stars extend a fair distance beyond they actually do. Several times is an exaggeration, yes, but the fact that the 40k galaxy is larger isn't.


Quotes please.
EVERYTHING in the real world is either destroyed or hideously warped by warp energy that isn't a special vulnerability of the C'tan. Shoot a human into warp space and they are destroyed. Space ships are warped and corrupted if they don't have intact gellar fields.


I'm not quoting half of the necron codex for you. Read it cover to cover and all the relevant information is there. And no, space ships aren't warped and corrupted if they don't have a gellar field. There are many instances of ships going unprotected through the warp and coming out fine. Their crews might not be, but the ships aren't destroyed. And no, humans aren't destroyed if they are in the warp unprotected. All the CSM exist within the warp and they are more or less fine (sans some mutations), there is also the story of the little girl with the black dog inside of Tzeentch's palace in the new Daemon codex.
The warp doesn't destroy, it changes.


A blackstone fortress can destroy stars and planets - why WOULDN'T it destroy a C'tan because it's made of the same stuff? Everything you've mentioned is deadly against non c'tan matter and energy as well, simply strengthening the assertion that the c'tan are in fact purely reality based creatures.

I have never heard of this before. I don't think there is any such instance in the fluff where a star or planet is destroyed by a Blackstone fortress.


Last time I checked, when you shoot a beam of warp energy at a tank, it explodes just as much as anything else. Or a star, or a planet, or a tree, or a rock.

Really? I'd like proof of that considering there is a lot more proof of that not being the case. If you're referring to something like a Bolt of Change, then that is something differently entirely. You are not shooting the warp, you're using warp energy to cast a magical ability. It's based on the warp, but not the same thing. A D-cannon or Wraithcannon destroys its target because you're opening up an interdimensional rift within it's structure. Not because the warp has some sort of magical explodey ability. Oh, and there are also warp spiders who regularly enter the warp. Nowhere does the fluff say they have any sort of special protection. When they are lost in the warp on their jump it is because a daemon grabs them or some other such mishap.


Their warding was used to defeat the Old Ones, because they couldn't defend themselves against warp powers (anymore than a normal star or planet can defend itself against the warp - case in point the Eye of Terror).

All those stars and planets still exist. They've been changed by the chaos gods, sure, but they are still there. And lots of things in the 40k galaxy can defend themselves against warp powers. Anything with an invulnerable save for instance...


They were entirely concerned with their food source being destroyed, not with any threat the denizens of the warp could provide.

It begs the question then, why didn't the C'tan try to fight back, unless they had something to fear? They had an alternate food source in the form of stars, it might not have tasted as good, but it would still provide them the energy needed to function. If they have nothing to fear from the enslaver plague, why not stay active?

Slaaneshi Slave
05-08-2008, 20:22
It begs the question then, why didn't the C'tan try to fight back, unless they had something to fear? They had an alternate food source in the form of stars, it might not have tasted as good, but it would still provide them the energy needed to function. If they have nothing to fear from the enslaver plague, why not stay active?

Official reason is because they were addicted to the way life tasted. They were also given sentience by the Necrontyr, which is something they didn't have previously. Imagine spending the next 60,000,000 years consuming nothing but water? It would get a little boring, wouldn't it.

Koryphaus
06-08-2008, 01:25
And no, space ships aren't warped and corrupted if they don't have a gellar field. There are many instances of ships going unprotected through the warp and coming out fine. Their crews might not be, but the ships aren't destroyed.

I agree with both of you. There are many snippets of stories to be found throughout the fluff that make reference to ghost ships drifting through the warp. Also, Space Hulks drift through the warp, both before and after the Orks, Tyranids, (or Necrons in one instance) etc get on board. However, there is a Dauntless Cruiser in Dark Apostle that is thrown into the Warp without its Gellar Fields. It is litterally turned inside out. Granted, this is the only incidence I can think of, so it supports both positions.


I have never heard of this before. I don't think there is any such instance in the fluff where a star or planet is destroyed by a Blackstone fortress.

I think St. Josmane's Hope may have been destroyed by the Blackstone Fortress during the EoT Campaign.

chaos0xomega
06-08-2008, 04:34
I'm largely unfamiliar with the EoT fluff, so that would make sense.

ADF
06-08-2008, 08:14
I think St. Josmane's Hope may have been destroyed by the Blackstone Fortress during the EoT Campaign.

During the Gothic conflict, where Abaddon originally conquered the Blackstone fortresses, the planet Fularis II was stripped of its atmosphere due to a hit from the combined beams of two fortresses.

Later on, the whole Tarantis SYSTEM was eradicated as Abaddon ordered three fortresses to fire at the star in its center, causing it to go super-nova after a month of extreme radioactive output.

Remember that Abaddon could do this with only three fortresses (they were able to link their D-Cannons to multiplicate their power), so all sic of them should be more than able to destroy a star or even a whole system on the spot.

PS.: Source is BFG basic rulebook, section "The Gothic Conflict"

Sekhmet
06-08-2008, 09:04
http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/3/

might be interesting to you

Mercer
06-08-2008, 11:46
C'tan die when they enter the Warp. Why do you think they've built the Pylons on Cadia to hold back the EOT? If the Warp were to spread into realspace then the whole grand plan the C'tan have for the galaxy is at an end.

The pylons were built before the Eye of Terror. However, it was a large amount of space ocupied by the Eldar. Perhaps they planned to disrupted there psychic connection to the Warp, and the Eldar Gods themselves.

Mercer

chaos0xomega
07-08-2008, 00:39
During the Gothic conflict, where Abaddon originally conquered the Blackstone fortresses, the planet Fularis II was stripped of its atmosphere due to a hit from the combined beams of two fortresses.

Later on, the whole Tarantis SYSTEM was eradicated as Abaddon ordered three fortresses to fire at the star in its center, causing it to go super-nova after a month of extreme radioactive output.

Remember that Abaddon could do this with only three fortresses (they were able to link their D-Cannons to multiplicate their power), so all sic of them should be more than able to destroy a star or even a whole system on the spot.

PS.: Source is BFG basic rulebook, section "The Gothic Conflict"

The reason it was able to destroy the system wasn't necessarily due to the power of the blackstone fortresses. From the sound of it the Blackstone fortresses did something to accelerate the stars aging process(probably converting a lot of hydrogen to helium or some higher element). I'd imagine that all 6 would be required to accomplish the task on the spot. Obviously there is a slight problem with the scale of power here though. One planet recieved a blast from 2 fortresses, and merely lost it's atmo. A star recieves a blast from 3.... and goes nova.

ADF
07-08-2008, 12:55
Well, you have a point here, but once again, as Sekmeth stated with his link, the fortresses were specifically created to destroy C'tan. If there is something that is capable of that feat, it has to be them.

Poseidal
07-08-2008, 13:47
The reason it was able to destroy the system wasn't necessarily due to the power of the blackstone fortresses. From the sound of it the Blackstone fortresses did something to accelerate the stars aging process(probably converting a lot of hydrogen to helium or some higher element). I'd imagine that all 6 would be required to accomplish the task on the spot. Obviously there is a slight problem with the scale of power here though. One planet recieved a blast from 2 fortresses, and merely lost it's atmo. A star recieves a blast from 3.... and goes nova.
Actually, it makes sense. The weapon is designed as a tool to kill 'star vampires'; when aimed at something that's not it's target it is still devastating, but when aimed at it's intended target (star) there are effects which don't occur in the other.

Hellebore
07-08-2008, 14:54
READ! Terra is physically placed in the center of the 40k starmap. It may still be in an outer spiral of the milky way, but on the map it's shown to be roughly center. And much exists well beyond the outside limits of the galaxy.


You were using that as proof that 40k isn't set in the 'real' milky way. So the ORIENTATION of the map proves it isn't the real galaxy?! That doesn't proove anything. Of course humanity would centre their map of the galaxy on the Emperor's throne.

It doesn't change the fact that the Terra in 40k maps (such as the 4th and 5th ed rulebooks) is not actually IN the centre of the galaxy. I assumed you were trying to say that the map showed earth at the centre of the galaxy and therefore couldn't really be our galaxy because terra was in the wrong spot.

So you are trying to say that the way the galaxy is oriented proves it isn't our galaxy?




Congratulations you have reinforced my point that Earth really exists towards the edge of the galaxy, and yet a hell of lot exists beyond this point in the 40k map. Hell, the Eye of Terror exists completely beyond the edge of the galaxy.



Um, how much do you know about the galaxy? It has trailling material spread out all over the place, it isn't a nicely contained cluster of stars. You will find a few rogue stars floating way outside the 'standard' edge of the galaxy.




I have an old 40k map poster thing from about 8 years ago that has Terra pretty much dead center of the map. It's a hell of a lot larger than some of the more recent maps, but it's till an official map.


Is that the one from the 2nd ed Imperial Guard codex? Or a more rescent one? I maintain that terra is still not at the centre of the GALAXY in those images. It may be at the centre of the MAP.

Or do you think the squats lived where the tau do now? The squats have ALWAYS live in the CORE of the galaxy, the galactic centre which is NOT where Terra is.




Look at the map and you tell me why stars, and major planets and celestial phenomena exist where there should only be the intergalactic void? Overlay an "actual" map of the milky way onto the 40k map, stars extend a fair distance beyond they actually do. Several times is an exaggeration, yes, but the fact that the 40k galaxy is larger isn't.



Oh my god. Are you trying to say that a map of the milky way shows all 200 billion stars!? That where you can't see 'white' patches there are no stars? Those maps are DENSITY dependent, not literal, point for point photos (which is impossible from within the galactic plane).



I'm not quoting half of the necron codex for you. Read it cover to cover and all the relevant information is there. And no, space ships aren't warped and corrupted if they don't have a gellar field. There are many instances of ships going unprotected through the warp and coming out fine. Their crews might not be, but the ships aren't destroyed. And no, humans aren't destroyed if they are in the warp unprotected. All the CSM exist within the warp and they are more or less fine (sans some mutations), there is also the story of the little girl with the black dog inside of Tzeentch's palace in the new Daemon codex.
The warp doesn't destroy, it changes.


So I have to prove my point to you but you can just wave your hand and say ''I'm right, and if you read it you'll know"? In an actual dicussion you just lost any credibility.

I quoted evidence that supported my point, all you have is "I'm SO right I don't need to support my argument." :rolleyes:

Either support your argument with actual quotes or stop trying to tell people what the 'truth' is.

The daemon codex supports my point as well. Daemons destroy organic matter when they possess it very quickly. Thus they prefer metal, hence soul grinders. HOWEVER, soulgrinders sill fall apart due to the possessing creature.

CSM don't exist in the warp, they exist within the Eye of Terror which combines both realspace and the warp. It isn't pure warp energy.





I have never heard of this before. I don't think there is any such instance in the fluff where a star or planet is destroyed by a Blackstone fortress.


To use your own argument: Go read it yourself it's all there, I'm right your wrong but I don't have to prove it. See how stupid that is? Fortunately for you I know how to defend an argument.

All this proves is you actually don't fully understand your argument and are simply trying to prove your OPINION with very little to support it (you know, like some actual EVIDENCE other than a claim of being right).

So here is some to shoot yet another baseless assertion by someone who refuses to use evidence in their argument from the book that INTRODUCED the Blackstone fortresses, BFG:



The two blackstones have taken up station five thousand leagues from each other, some seventy five thousand leagues from Fularis II [...]I can see it myself now, a column of shifting energy linking the two fortresses together[...] Fularis II was later found with its atmosphere stripped off and the surface scoured to a rocky plain.



Combining their power together in the same fashion as at Fularis, the Blackstones unleashed a massive energy wave into the Tarantis star.[...] Four weeks after Abbadon's attack, Tarantis' star went nova[...]


Don't worry though, I'm sure that your opinion of what GW have written is much more convincing than the actual writing itself.




Really? I'd like proof of that considering there is a lot more proof of that not being the case. If you're referring to something like a Bolt of Change, then that is something differently entirely. You are not shooting the warp, you're using warp energy to cast a magical ability. It's based on the warp, but not the same thing. A D-cannon or Wraithcannon destroys its target because you're opening up an interdimensional rift within it's structure. Not because the warp has some sort of magical explodey ability. Oh, and there are also warp spiders who regularly enter the warp. Nowhere does the fluff say they have any sort of special protection. When they are lost in the warp on their jump it is because a daemon grabs them or some other such mishap.


Wow, YOU'D like proof? Nice little piece of hypocrisy to add to your list of hypocrises.

Don't worry I'll get out of your little fantasy and let you get on with the job of proving your opinion without evidence.

I always do this, but somehow I never learn. Stop arguing with people who refuse to actually support their positions, because they just jump up and down declaring themselves right whilst demanding their opponent prove everything.

I forgot this was the internet rather than a debate based in logic. My mistake.

Hellebore

Talos
07-08-2008, 15:17
I have never heard of this before. I don't think there is any such instance in the Fluff where a star or planet is destroyed by a Blackstone fortress.

In the eye of terror a Blackstone fortress destroys a planet, well it kills everything on it including cities in a few hours.


The Chaos fleet advanced towards Cadia,stopping only to allow the Blackstone fortresses to scour Demois Binary to a barren rock. Lightning arcs of incandescent energies razed the planet surface bare, killing millions of imperial servants and destroying every structure in a matter of hours.

chaos0xomega
07-08-2008, 20:22
Ya know Hellebore, you're an *******. I'd appreciate an end to your condescending tone.

I think you understand quite clearly what it is I am trying to say, you just refuse to acknowledge it. You know I'm not saying that they placed Terra at the center of the map, you know I am saying that the maps are (were) centered on Terra, It would have to be considering some of the often stated distances within the galaxy. There is the fact that the Eye of Terror was stated in some of the older fluff (and I believe in the 4th edition rulebook) to be 30,000 lightyears across. If you compare that to the size of the galaxy, you'll end up with a size about 120k-180k in size.

There is also the reverse of this argument, that it is too small. And their is far more to suppor this as well. It is oft stated that the Astronomican has a radius of 50,000 lightyears of effect. The 5th book says that the astronomican has dimmed slightly, and communication with Macragge is sporadic. Look at where Macragge is. If that's 50k lightyears away from terra, there is no way that galaxy is 100k across (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Macragge). There is also the fact that Cypra Mundi is said to also suffer the same communications issues as Macragge, however Cypra Mundi is considerably closer to Terra (http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html look center segmentum obscurus in vicinity of Gothic Sector). If Cypra Mundi is 50k away, then the galaxy is a hell of a lot bigger than 100k.
There is also the issue of Elysia and Armageddon. Elysia is said to be 30lightyears from armageddon. If this is the case, then the galaxy is very very small indeed.
There is also the fact that Hive Fleet Leviathan is said to have come within 15,000 lighyears of terra, looking at the same map, this distance just seems off in general. There is also the matter that the image of the galaxy in the oft-referenced starmap is only 58k lighyears across from the outermost point of the Cygnus Arm to the outermost point of the Sagittarius arm (I did the math, the site provides you with X,Y coordinates and a scale).

There is also the matter of the Halo Stars, which is a group of stars that form a "Halo" around the galaxy. I.E. they lie outside of the galactic disk. AFAIK, no such stellar geography exists in the real world. And then there is the matter that that the entire 40k galaxy violates the current estimates of the drake equation.

Also the Squat Homeworld of Diosis Theta isn't even in the galactic center.

I'm not going to even bother going on, I think I've thrown enough proof down on the table.

Also, you haven't given me very much proof of anything. All of your sources and quotes don't support either of our arguments, they are vague and rather open-ended at best.

Either way, you're a waste of my time, especially considering how much evidence there is to counter you. And you believing that 40k is grounded in our reality doesn't help the matter in any way.

Hellebore
08-08-2008, 09:34
Ya know Hellebore, you're an *******. I'd appreciate an end to your condescending tone.


Well I'd appreciate an actual piece of quoted evidence to support your position, not something you BELIEVE is true with nothing but your opinion to back it up.



I'm not quoting half of the necron codex for you. Read it cover to cover and all the relevant information is there.


I can say the same thing "I'm not quoting half the necron codex for you. Read it cover to cover". See, I'm right because I said the same thing.

That statement is not only false it doesn't prove a single thing. I actually quoted sections of the necron codex and all you've got as defense is 'read the whole thing it's in there'.

Well I've read the whole thing and those quotes I gave contradict your BELIEF completely. Nowhere does it describe them as anything other than normal energy based beings. I showed you quotes that support that, you've got nothing to support your assertion except your belief that it is correct. Well unfortunately your belief doesn't cut it in a debate based on logic.





I think you understand quite clearly what it is I am trying to say, you just refuse to acknowledge it. You know I'm not saying that they placed Terra at the center of the map, you know I am saying that the maps are (were) centered on Terra, It would have to be considering some of the often stated distances within the galaxy. There is the fact that the Eye of Terror was stated in some of the older fluff (and I believe in the 4th edition rulebook) to be 30,000 lightyears across. If you compare that to the size of the galaxy, you'll end up with a size about 120k-180k in size.


You said this:

When you say 40k is pretty much grounded in our reality you lost all credibility you could have claimed. I'm sorry but that's just dead wrong. How is the fact that the 40k version of the milky way galaxy is several times larger than the real world 40k galaxy "grounded in our reality?" If you don't believe me, Terra/Earth is on the outside edge/very close to it of the real world milky way. It's almost dead center of the map in the 40k galaxy (and there are a lot of stars past the point where it should be). Contrary to popular belief, the Tau Empire for instance, is not at the edge of the galaxy. The 5th edition rulebook shows quite clearly that stars (and even planets) exist farther out than the Tau Empire. A lot farther out in fact.

"It's almost dead center of the map in the 40k galaxy" - you said this as 'evidence' that the 40k galaxy is not our galaxy.

You were trying to prove that the 'grounded in reality' statement wasn't true by telling me that earth isn't where it should be. If that's not what you meant then why did you say it, right there in that quote?

Again, do you have a quote for that 30,000 lightyear statement? Or am I supposed to take your word on blind faith that it's completely infalible?

Is this how you discuss things with other people? Make vague statements about things and just say 'it's right there, I don't have to tell you'? Do you seriously believe that people have proper debates like that?

When two people disagree on something they state their positions and then back those positions up with evidence. Saying "(and I believe in the 4th edition rulebook)" isn't providing evidence at all. It's not my responsibility to look up YOUR evidence. You present YOUR evidence and I present MINE. I have not once required that you go chasing after my points, I quoted the source and the page. That is how one debates.

Without evidence to back your claims, that's all they are: claims. With nothing printed by GW for you to present here in this discussion all you are doing is trying to convince me of an opinion with nothing but your word that what you say is true. Unfortunately reality doesn't work that way.





There is also the reverse of this argument, that it is too small. And their is far more to suppor this as well. It is oft stated that the Astronomican has a radius of 50,000 lightyears of effect. The 5th book says that the astronomican has dimmed slightly, and communication with Macragge is sporadic. Look at where Macragge is. If that's 50k lightyears away from terra, there is no way that galaxy is 100k across (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Macragge).


"Oft stated". Where? I can say it's oft stated that c'tan are actually giant chickens, why is your assertion that it's 'oft stated' any more valid than mine? You know how you validate that? You provide EVIDENCE. Even a single page quote from a book printed by GW that says "the astronomicon has a range of 50,000 light years" supports your point.

I really don't care if you're right and I'm wrong, I really don't. What I DO care about is when I'm trying to have an actual discussion with someone who makes sweeping generalisations with no first hand evidence that those statements are correct.

Apart from which, you were just arguing that the 40k galaxy is actually too BIG. It can't be both too big AND too small. So which is it? You were providing some generalised statements that 'proved' that it was too big to be our galaxy, and now you've got another set of generalised statements saying it's too small?

Your whole argument hinges on that 50,000 light year statement, of which I've got nothing but your word it's true.




There is also the fact that Cypra Mundi is said to also suffer the same communications issues as Macragge, however Cypra Mundi is considerably closer to Terra (http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html look center segmentum obscurus in vicinity of Gothic Sector). If Cypra Mundi is 50k away, then the galaxy is a hell of a lot bigger than 100k.
There is also the issue of Elysia and Armageddon. Elysia is said to be 30lightyears from armageddon. If this is the case, then the galaxy is very very small indeed.


So which is it? Too big or too small? You can't have it both ways, so stick with one side and stay there, you only make yourself look ridiculous trying to prove both at the same time.

Apart from which, where are those numbers from? Please provide page quotes for those distances. When you do then I'll know that GW have actually said them.
And when you can verify that GW have given those numbers THEN I will provide counter evidence. Until then I will dismiss it as groundless. I laugh when I think of you trying to prove a case in a court of law: but your honour, it IS true because I said so! Evidence, it's right there, figure it out for yourself.

I don't need to be condescending when the person I'm talking to stubbornly takes refuge in personal belief and incredulity over actual evidence



There is also the fact that Hive Fleet Leviathan is said to have come within 15,000 lighyears of terra, looking at the same map, this distance just seems off in general. There is also the matter that the image of the galaxy in the oft-referenced starmap is only 58k lighyears across from the outermost point of the Cygnus Arm to the outermost point of the Sagittarius arm (I did the math, the site provides you with X,Y coordinates and a scale).


Which map are you talking about? Joachim's one? The one you posted. That's a FAN map. Unless GW said it, it's not true in 40k.




Also, you haven't given me very much proof of anything. All of your sources and quotes don't support either of our arguments, they are vague and rather open-ended at best.


Lol, coming from someone who didn't even PROVIDE quotes that's rich. When you want to have a real discussion, come back with some evidence. At the moment you're throwing around all sorts of numbers with no reference, as far as I am concerned you've made them all up in an effort to prove a point you have no evidence for.

Until you decide to actually quote something, then everything you've said is personal opinion with no basis in fact.



Either way, you're a waste of my time, especially considering how much evidence there is to counter you. And you believing that 40k is grounded in our reality doesn't help the matter in any way.

Evidence? Evidence?! All I see is the generalised statements of someone refusing to actually provide any evidence. What special psychic powers do you have that make everything you say completely true?

Yet again I will ask for actual page quotes for all the stuff you've spouted. The longer you fail to provide them the more it looks like they don't exist and you are simply making them up to support your OPINION.

I'm truly sorry you've no other recourse.

Hellebore

MvS
08-08-2008, 11:02
The topic of whether C'tan can be warped or corrupted by Chaos (or the Warp) is an interesting one.

I would think that the C'tan themselves - the strange, massive and largely formless energy beings - cannot be corrupted in the sense of being possessed by daemons or tempted by the honeyed whispers of the Chaos Gods. Likewise, the C'tan in their natural state probably can't be mutated either - I mean what have they got to mutate? They're an exotic, and apparently self-aware and intelligent, form of energy not a discreet package of matter like us humans.

I would imagine that the natural-state C'tan cannot be possessed because they have no psychic output. They don't generate that sort of 'energy' or whatever it is that psychic powers are supposed to be. Looking at the imagery it seems that psychic powers - the actual 'energy' that allows for the normal functions of the Realspace to be morphed, tweaked, suspended and apparently even broken - come from the Warp itself, and a psyker is a mortal being whose brain somehow has developed an 'open-window' into the Warp to allow its energies in.

We are told that the vast majority of sentient mortal creatures in the 40K universe are, at least, transmitters of some sort of psychic output - so they pretty much all add or alter the Warp with their emotions, thoughts and (more hazily) souls. They don't even have to realise that they are doing so.

I would regard this as a sort of 'polarisation', where the minds of non-psykers only 'transmit' into the Warp but are otherwise 'magnetically weak' to the Warp's powers - so they don't actively draw Warp energy in, like psykers' minds do.

Psykers transmit into the Warp, but are also in a sense 'magnetised' to Warp energy, drawing it into their minds with varying degrees of strength and consistency. Some manage to control these 'magnetic fields', others do not.

Where the Warp is concerned, however, the sort of magnetism that I'm talking about alters due to the personality of the psyker and his or her desires and beliefs. A short tempered and violent psyker will probably not just draw 'plain' Warp energy into his brain, but Warp energy that is connected to the Warp disturbance/aggregate that is Khorne, as an example.

So how does this relate to the C'tan? Well for whatever reason they seem to be psychically inert. They do not transmit into or receive from the Warp. They don't dampen its effects when it spills into Realspace (like an Untouchable) and they have no positive or negative presence in the Warp. They simply have no Warp shadow at all. They exist solely in Realspace.

Does this mean the Warp can't harm them? I would say that the Warp and its energies can of course harm the C'tan, because the C'tan are still entities that have some form of physical structure (in the sense of how the particles of their being are structured) and independent existence. This doesn't mean that the Warp is like their Kryptonite. It isn't enough for a low level psyker to turn up for a C'tan to take to its heels.

In fact a Superman analogy is a good one here. We know Superman is immune to bullets and bombs and that Kryptonite is his only real weakness, however this doesn't mean that Superman wouldn't be killed just like everyone else if our sun went nova overnight and destroyed the entire solar system in a sudden apocalyptic conflagration. So in other words it is the amount and focus of the energy/force that matter, not just the type.

Just as grenades have little effect on Superman, so too would Lascannons, Cyclonic Torpedoes or Virus bombs have little effect of the natural-state C'tan. I doubt even a collapsing star would have much of an effect on them in their natural state, except making them feel a little tipsy or gassy perhaps. If, however, a few stars in the vicinity suddenly went nova in a short space of time, then I'm sure this would harm a natural-state C'tan. Yes we know they eat the radiation and electro-magnetism of stars, but that doesn't mean they can't be killed by too much of these things. We humans can die from drinking too much water in one sitting, and not just because our stomachs burst. We can effectively be poisoned by over-consumption of it in one sitting.

Why should the C'tan be different with star-energies?

So where does the Warp come in? Well let's face it, destroying a few stars quickly and at the same time with a mind of poisoning one C'tan isn't really a viable option for most races in the 40K universe - even if they had the technology to do so. The Warp, however, has the potential to supply an energy form that is un-coupled from the usual laws that govern energy transference, radioactivity and all that jazz. You could conceivably get enough energy to 'poison' a C'tan in one place and at one time without having to destroy a whole sector of space to do so.

The question there is how? THAT is the techno-arcana of the ancient Eldar gods and the Old Ones. How do you tap enough Warp energy to obliterate a being of powerful energy in Realspace, WITHOUT ripping open another Eye of Terror in the process? That's the real skill - the control of the Warp energy unleashed into Realspace, not the basic transference of it from the Warp into Realspace in one instant, which is horribly possible in the 40K universe. The trick is to do this dependably, on demand and without destroying yourself and your whole civilisation while doing so.

The Talismans of Vaul, together, were the very best answer to this problem and the technomancy of how these were built is lost to ancient history and the disappearance of ostensibly supernatural beings (like Vaul and Morai Heg).

So that's how I imagine you could kill a natural-state C'tan, but what of a C'tan in its necrodermis? Much, much easier to deal with, although admittedly this 'dealing' won't necessarily involve the actual destruction of the C'tan, just its shell. The necrodermis is a physical object. It's just an extremely complex alloy - a sort of supremely advanced machine with moving parts the size of molecules instead of identifiable cogs, wheels and wires. It can be altered and destroyed by Warp energy, and it can be possessed like any other physical object, although while a C'tan is still occupying it I think this would be a very difficult trick to pull of indeed.

The C'tan would not have the sort of mind that a Warp entity can enter as it has no windows or doors into the Warp at all. The necrodermis could conceivably be warped into new shapes by sorcery, but then what is to stop the occupying C'tan reasserting its own control over its shell and forcing it back into a more agreeable shape? Far 'easier' to obliterate the shell and drive the C'tan out of it than try to take control of it while the C'tan is still in residence I would think...


EDIT:

On the subject of Warpstorms making the C'tan feel discomforted - I imagine that the presence of a nearby hurricane of an energy form that the C'tan can't feed upon or manipulate would indeed make the C'tan feel queasy, creeped out and a little sun-burnt.

It might be a bit like us mere humans suddenly being forced to see a completely new colour (not a combination of the existing prime colours we can already see), or maybe seeing and tasting sound waves - concepts that don't sit naturally with how our bodies perceive the universe and how our minds conceive it. The experience woulnd't just be unnerving it might actually risk overloading or 'breaking' or usual senses.

Poseidal
08-08-2008, 11:32
Actually, this leads me to one thought: When a Necrodermis is destroyed, the C'Tan in effect goes to it's natural state and flees to a tomb world where it has another necrodermis constructed for it.

Logically, if all of these construction facilities were destroyed, destroy the C'Tan's necrodermis and the C'Tan is let out. With nowhere to go to, it returns to it's original state and will slowly lose the sentience it was given by the necrontyr and returning them to their original position of an interesting cosmic phenomenon.

Hellebore
08-08-2008, 11:39
That would be a very hard trick to pull off though.

The eldar farseers MIGHT be able to pull off a coordinated attack that did that, but it would be pretty hard.

Perhaps some kind of disruption device? The 'nanomachines' that living metal is supposed to be made of, can they be shorted out, reprogrammed etc?

What would happen if a c'tan's necrodermis rebelled, sealed it inside and then went innert?

Hellebore

Mercer
08-08-2008, 11:40
I think they still have sentience as in the Nightbringer novel, the Nightbringer projects its thoughts into the cartel member. It says how the stars have sustained it for 60 million years. If it had no sentience over that time, then it probably wouldn't remember devouring those stars.

Though you have a interesting point/theory about the tombs. If all are destroyed, that means the C'Tan has no wear to flee, and means no nice, crisp, clean necrodermis shell. The same is also the case for the Necrons as a whole. When defeated they phase out to tomb worlds, if there're not tomb worlds, or tombs, where can they phase out too?

Only thing would be is that Necrons apparently use something called "phase space" or something like that. Perhaps everything can be stored there.

Mercer

Slaaneshi Slave
08-08-2008, 11:59
I like to imagine phase space is everything the Warp is not. It is an alternative dimension, just like the warp. If Phase space, real space and warp space are all linked we have a nice progression. Warp is chaos, phase is sterile, and real is something inbetween. It is possible the Necrons and C'Tan could flee to Phase Space if they were about to be defeated, but if it is so sterile, would there be anything there to eat? Possible it is simply a completely empty universe. Creepy thought.

Poseidal
08-08-2008, 12:20
I think they still have sentience as in the Nightbringer novel, the Nightbringer projects its thoughts into the cartel member. It says how the stars have sustained it for 60 million years. If it had no sentience over that time, then it probably wouldn't remember devouring those stars.



Remembering things doesn't necessarily make you sentient. Most animals have memory, but very few will claim to be sentient.

The codex states they were semi sentient before they were given shells, so I would probably err on the side that this semi-sentience would put them akin to a clever animal which has the capacity to remember things.

I would imagine that destroying the tomb worlds would be extremely hard to pull off, but it does go outside the normal 'blow up the main target' box.

I would wager at their peak, the Necrons would have guarded the tomb worlds very well, but now many or dormant so back at the time, the Talisman would be 'cut the head' off method to destroy them and was more practical than multiple invasions.

Now, destroying tomb worlds has become more practical; cut the body and allow it to bleed to death in effect.

Mercer
08-08-2008, 12:47
Sentient actually means aware, so the C'Tan was pretty much aware as it can remember things.

Destroying tomb worlds would be difficult, as bombs might not penetrate that far down. However, they could be buried. Take the Nightbringers tomb, it was 10,000 km beneath mountains. If that was buried, then nothing would get out, until actually released.

I agree, I suspect at the height tomb worlds would be bases of operations and would be well protected by surface to air defence, and possibly a score of ships in orbit.

Mercer

Slaaneshi Slave
08-08-2008, 12:54
Tomb worlds have been destroyed by the Ordo Xenos already. Tracker becons attached to dead Necrons have been traced when they phase out. Speedy ships then exterminatus the planet.

Even if something is hidden 10,000km beneath mountains (which actually puts it close to the other side of the Earth...) a few Melta Torpedos to the planets crust would do the trick as the planet begins to break up...

Koryphaus
08-08-2008, 13:04
Indeed, the AH have been quiet active in their pursuit and destruction of Tombs, I didn't know they have physically destroyed the actual planet as well.

10000km? Not only closer, that's only 2000km below the surface of the Earth. However, a a Necron Tombworld could easily be far larger in diameter than the Earth of course.

Now, it is entirely possible that melta and cyclonic warheads only work if the planet has a liquid mantle and core.If the planet is truly dead; ie, it has no geothermal activity, then you would have to blow it apart, rock by chunky rock.

Could be wrong, I make no claims to understanding the physics of a fictional WMD.

Slaaneshi Slave
08-08-2008, 13:09
Pretty sure you wouldn't need to blast the whole thing apart. Blast a chunk out and it's orbit would destabalise, which would put more gravitational pressures on the planet which would eventually tear it apart. At least that's much take on it.

I don't think a planet without a liquid core would be much use to the Necrons. Without a liquid core you can't have geotherman activity, which means no recycling of carbon, which in turn means no carbon based plant life. As plant life is what makes up a massive amount of the chemicals (notable oil) on the planet, I don't think one without would be suitable.

Poseidal
08-08-2008, 13:10
Sentient actually means aware, so the C'Tan was pretty much aware as it can remember things.
They are Sentient now and they remember things, but they were not before (even if they possess a memory like animals or computers) they were given form by the Necrontyr (the Necron codex states this I think). If they are left out of the Necrodermis for too long they'll either eventually return to their original state or at least be stuck and unable to influence things (apart from eating stars). They will still have the memory, but will no longer be aware of it if they return to their original state.

Hellebore
08-08-2008, 13:13
Afaik exterminatus doesn't cause crustal damage, the cyclonic torpedoes being used to destroy the atmosphere and cause a huge global firestorm (after the bacteria have eaten everything). There might be variations on the method of exterminatus but I always thought it simply made the planet uninhabitable, rather than destroying it.

Didn't the 3rd ed Tyranid codex mention giant boring carnifex types that could breech the mantle? Or was it a WD article (I think it was in some stuff written by Sherman Bishop, which was originally Fanfic until GW got a hold of it)?

There was a WD battlereport I think around some deathwatch infiltrating a tomb and shutting it down, although I have no idea which number. Does anyone know the one I'm talking about?

The Ciaphas Cain novel with necrons in it suggested that tombs were massive structures. I don't think they ever gave numbers, just an overall feeling of size.

Hellebore

Poseidal
08-08-2008, 13:27
Didn't the 3rd ed Tyranid codex mention giant boring carnifex types that could breech the mantle? Or was it a WD article (I think it was in some stuff written by Sherman Bishop, which was originally Fanfic until GW got a hold of it)?

You would have hoped the Tyranids would have sent an interesting giant carnifex. :(

Though in seriousness this could mean if a Farseer/The Eldar could redirect a tendril to a tomb world, the Tyranids could do half the work of boring into the planet when eating any life that's there and then the Eldar or Imperium or anyone else manipulated could finish the job.

ADF
08-08-2008, 13:29
Well, the Cain novels state that the tombs are gigantic from the inside, but the Necrons are noted for using space-distorting devices, so the whole lovecraftian atmosphere of their tombs is partially due to the fact that they are larger from the inside then they could possibly be as seen from outside.

Slaaneshi Slave
08-08-2008, 13:31
I don't see why Eldar would need Tyranid help to destroy an entire planet. A large Distort Cannon to suck a section of the planets core into the warp, followed swiftly by a teleporting warhead into the void left. A large warhead. Large enough to blow the planet apart.

Hellebore
08-08-2008, 13:32
And yet GW has indicated the tyranids have purposefully avoided necron tombworlds. The pic in the back of the 3rd ed codex showing the tendrils moving around that planet...naogeddon? The dyson sphere?

I wonder if the tyranids would refuse to invade a tomb world even if the eldar manipulated them into it. How smart is the hive mind? Would it know it's being manipulated if it showed up at a planet it didn't want to invade?

Hellebore

CommanderCax
08-08-2008, 13:39
Please, chaos0xomega and Hellebore, can you stop this highly off-topic dispute and rather switch to PMs instead. :mad:


The topic of whether C'tan can be warped or corrupted by Chaos (or the Warp) is an interesting one.

I would think that the C'tan themselves - the strange, massive and largely formless energy beings - cannot be corrupted in the sense of being possessed by daemons or tempted by the honeyed whispers of the Chaos Gods. Likewise, the C'tan in their natural state probably can't be mutated either - I mean what have they got to mutate? They're an exotic, and apparently self-aware and intelligent, form of energy not a discreet package of matter like us humans.

Absolutely. That is indeed how I see it as well.


So that's how I imagine you could kill a natural-state C'tan, but what of a C'tan in its necrodermis? Much, much easier to deal with, although admittedly this 'dealing' won't necessarily involve the actual destruction of the C'tan, just its shell. The necrodermis is a physical object. It's just an extremely complex alloy - a sort of supremely advanced machine with moving parts the size of molecules instead of identifiable cogs, wheels and wires. It can be altered and destroyed by Warp energy, and it can be possessed like any other physical object, although while a C'tan is still occupying it I think this would be a very difficult trick to pull of indeed.

Sure, and I never thought it is an easy feat to accomplish. But being thrown into the warp protected only by its own sort of personal Gellar field and remaining there for millions of years (surrounded by alien colours, smells and sights to use your analogy) could probably make it happen and could leave even a star god a little unhinged...


The C'tan would not have the sort of mind that a Warp entity can enter as it has no windows or doors into the Warp at all. The necrodermis could conceivably be warped into new shapes by sorcery, but then what is to stop the occupying C'tan reasserting its own control over its shell and forcing it back into a more agreeable shape?

Maybe its not so easy for the weakened and unsettled C'tan that just is reappearing from the warp. Maybe the corruption of its Necrodermis hinders it to simply reassert its own full control over its shell and force it back into a more agreeable shape. Maybe it is fighting against the corruption kind of eternally in a cosmic stalemate. Neither being able to leave its shell, nor being able to get rid of the corruption, nor being completely overwhelmed and destroyed by the warp energy.


Far 'easier' to obliterate the shell and drive the C'tan out of it than try to take control of it while the C'tan is still in residence I would think...

Yes, but why obliterating the shell and thereby freeing the C'tan ready to inhabit a new Necrodermis, when it is possible to entrap it in its own warped shell. Kind of like being petrified or like a daemon being bound to an object and thereby being unable to leave into the warp.


Only thing would be is that Necrons apparently use something called "phase space" or something like that. Perhaps everything can be stored there.

Actually, I also thought about using an extremely ancient and powerful daemon (similiar to Be'lakor in Fantasy) being trapped in some kind of 'phase space' by the Necrons, who is reappearing from being out-of-phase, instead of the 'C'tan from the warp idea' as the Tyrant Star.

Poseidal
08-08-2008, 13:39
Yes, those points do suggest that it is unlikely.

As for using D-Cannons to destroy planets, do the Eldar still have resources for this? Certainly they would do pre-fall, but now?

I'm thinking, what would dissuade tyranids from going to tomb worlds? there's no warp signature that would discourage them, so it would appear like any other. It must be something else, but what? How do the Tyranids even detect the Necrons are there?

Talos
08-08-2008, 13:42
They need Abbadons planet killer to destroy the whole world.

Slaaneshi Slave
08-08-2008, 13:47
No, the Planet Killer is the easiest way of doing it, but there are others. Battle Ship mounted Distort Cannons, Melta Torpedos, and even conventional weaponry until the crust liquifies.

Wiseman
08-08-2008, 13:48
Yes, those points do suggest that it is unlikely.

As for using D-Cannons to destroy planets, do the Eldar still have resources for this? Certainly they would do pre-fall, but now?

I'm thinking, what would dissuade tyranids from going to tomb worlds? there's no warp signature that would discourage them, so it would appear like any other. It must be something else, but what? How do the Tyranids even detect the Necrons are there?

My thoughts are that a Tomb World would be completely bare of warp signatures, not even appearing in the warp so its not that they are repulsed by them, but instead have no need to go near there, the other option could be that with no warp presence, and only pariahs on the planet, it might ward them off as well.

Hellebore
08-08-2008, 13:54
Yes, those points do suggest that it is unlikely.

As for using D-Cannons to destroy planets, do the Eldar still have resources for this? Certainly they would do pre-fall, but now?

I'm thinking, what would dissuade tyranids from going to tomb worlds? there's no warp signature that would discourage them, so it would appear like any other. It must be something else, but what? How do the Tyranids even detect the Necrons are there?

Well if they had the blackstones then they should have other things too.

I vaguely remember something about an event causing the eldar to reactive their most potent weapons and the galaxy to spiral into absolute destruction. It might have been in the Bill King novel Farseer.

Does that sound familiar? Can anyone verify that? If that is true then it certainly supports the idea that the eldar have powerful weapons they've not used.

I think one of the problems of the necrons is the idea that the eldar at the height of their power (you know, quencing suns etc) there is no mention of them trying to destroy even some of the tombworlds. With the power they wielded they should have been able to do.

This is of course because the necrons were created after the eldar, so the eldar background wasn't written with the war in heaven stuff in mind.

Hellebore

Pete278
08-08-2008, 14:23
Sentient actually means aware, so the C'Tan was pretty much aware as it can remember things.

Destroying tomb worlds would be difficult, as bombs might not penetrate that far down. However, they could be buried. Take the Nightbringers tomb, it was 10,000 km beneath mountains. If that was buried, then nothing would get out, until actually released.

I agree, I suspect at the height tomb worlds would be bases of operations and would be well protected by surface to air defence, and possibly a score of ships in orbit.

Mercer
Sentient means 'capable of feeling', sapient means 'self-aware'. Differences, etc.

madd0ct0r
08-08-2008, 15:54
I think one of the problems of the necrons is the idea that the eldar at the height of their power (you know, quencing suns etc) there is no mention of them trying to destroy even some of the tombworlds. With the power they wielded they should have been able to do.

Well, in an attempt to fill the gap with fanfluff:

Tombworlds - were they actually 'tomb' worlds before the C'tan went into hibernation? The Necrontyr would have had factories and farms and spaceports ect. None of these have been found.

Once the War in Heaven started and the Necrontyr became Necrons (i think it's in that order), the farms would have become useless but the factories, power stations, spaceports ect would become crucial to the war effort.
No evidence of these now exist.

Once the long hibernation started, I can see the Eldar searching the galaxy for these facilites and eliminating them. The tombworlds were designed to keep the Necron's safe through their slumber and so most were never found (if the Eldar knew of the seperate existance of tombworlds at all).

Mercer
08-08-2008, 16:02
The novel Nightbringer says they could not oribital bomb it as the bombs would not penetrate that far down to affect the tomb.

I'm sure the earth's crust is thicker than 10,000 km. Even if its not, doesn't mean other planets isn't.

In the Necron codex deathwatch has only destroyed a tomb, not the tomb world. It says they went into the tomb and planeted a bomb, only a few of them managed to escape.

Mercer

Slaaneshi Slave
08-08-2008, 16:10
The earth has a radius of a little over 6,000km. The thickest part of the crush is around 50km thick, down to as little as 5km in parts of the ocean.

chaos0xomega
08-08-2008, 18:38
The earth isn't even 10,000 km in diameter, the crust is really about 50km thick IIRC.

Awww... damnit, Slaaneshi Slave beat me to it.

Hellebore
16-08-2008, 03:51
I think you'll find that the earth's diameter is actually 12,000 km:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth

Hellebore

CthulhuDalek
16-08-2008, 07:37
Isn't the purpose of the blackstone fortresses that they can(when all pieces are put together) muster up enough pure warp energy that they could focus it an kill an individual c'tan?

I think if a C'tan was near the Eye of Terror it'd be fine, because it has "reality" to back off into. Back to the aforementioned Vampire and Holy Water Example. Imagine a C'tan like a Vampire and the Holy Water being any amount of Warp Energy. But to be dropped INTO the warp would be even worse than having a stream directed at it(a la blackstone fortresses) you'd be pouring an entire ocean of the stuff!

They explained(as ALSO stated above) in an faq that Gift of Chaos works on C'tan during the game, but from a fluff-standpoint there would not be enough warp energy channeled by that sorcerer to do any lasting damage to a C'tan. It's like putting a tad bit of Holy Water versus a "stream" or "ocean".

I think a C'tan could feasibly be "corrupted" in only one sense as mentioned above AS WELL. If they were dropped in the warp with a barrier of sorts between them and the warp(Gellar field..) they could survive but may invariably go insane. It is not outside the scope of possibility for a C'tan to go crazy--but it is entirely inconceivable that a C'tan would do the bidding or even be corrupted by a Chaos God. More likely the Warp entity would slowly deteriorate or if it was say... Khorne HIMSELF possessing a C'tan the C'tan would immediately be destroyed.

I think it was funny that C'tan avoid invulnerable saves even though 99 percent of them have some sort of warp-based technology! If anything Daemons should avoid invulnerable saves and not regular armor saves unless they are monstrous in size and strength!

Poseidal
16-08-2008, 07:40
I think it was funny that C'tan avoid invulnerable saves even though 99 percent of them have some sort of warp-based technology! If anything Daemons should avoid invulnerable saves and not regular armor saves unless they are monstrous in size and strength!
This was an unfortunate circumstance due to them choosing 'C'tan' to be the Necron overlord race. The C'tan were before just an advanced but vanished race where the Imperium found phase swords to give to their assassins.

CthulhuDalek
16-08-2008, 07:43
Well, the Cain novels state that the tombs are gigantic from the inside, but the Necrons are noted for using space-distorting devices, so the whole lovecraftian atmosphere of their tombs is partially due to the fact that they are larger from the inside then they could possibly be as seen from outside.

TARDIS, much?

Sekhmet
16-08-2008, 08:50
Isn't the purpose of the blackstone fortresses that they can(when all pieces are put together) muster up enough pure warp energy that they could focus it an kill an individual c'tan?

I think if a C'tan was near the Eye of Terror it'd be fine, because it has "reality" to back off into. Back to the aforementioned Vampire and Holy Water Example. Imagine a C'tan like a Vampire and the Holy Water being any amount of Warp Energy. But to be dropped INTO the warp would be even worse than having a stream directed at it(a la blackstone fortresses) you'd be pouring an entire ocean of the stuff!

Warp is only a weakness in the sense that it's the absolute only thing besides another C'tan that will do any sort of real damage. It's not magically more effective against than than against anything else. And just like realspace ships, they can make a gellar field and theoretically survive in the warp... they just can't navigate as they aren't a navigator.



They explained(as ALSO stated above) in an faq that Gift of Chaos works on C'tan during the game, but from a fluff-standpoint there would not be enough warp energy channeled by that sorcerer to do any lasting damage to a C'tan. It's like putting a tad bit of Holy Water versus a "stream" or "ocean".

Gift does no damage to c'tan at all, it just damages their necrodermis.



I think it was funny that C'tan avoid invulnerable saves even though 99 percent of them have some sort of warp-based technology! If anything Daemons should avoid invulnerable saves and not regular armor saves unless they are monstrous in size and strength!
It's because the C'tan phase out of all reality and simply pass through all barriers, striking at the real space target beneath. Say you had a Farseer with warp-powered rune armor. The C'tan simply moves out of this reality with his arm and re-materializes the edge within the Farseer's chest, killing him without having to even touch the warp-strengthened armor.

CthulhuDalek
16-08-2008, 14:49
Warp is only a weakness in the sense that it's the absolute only thing besides another C'tan that will do any sort of real damage. It's not magically more effective against than than against anything else. And just like realspace ships, they can make a gellar field and theoretically survive in the warp... they just can't navigate as they aren't a navigator.


Gift does no damage to c'tan at all, it just damages their necrodermis.


It's because the C'tan phase out of all reality and simply pass through all barriers, striking at the real space target beneath. Say you had a Farseer with warp-powered rune armor. The C'tan simply moves out of this reality with his arm and re-materializes the edge within the Farseer's chest, killing him without having to even touch the warp-strengthened armor.

Wouldn't the whole "we have warp powered armor" be an area of reality that a C'tan couldn't phase through?

And Gift of Chaos "in game" does effect them. When they are in their necrodermis that is essentially the C'tan. It would probably hurt the C'tan to be "Gifted" but would have absolutely no lasting effect.

Also, if a C'tan was thrown into the warp, would it have time to create a Gellar field? I think that they might be destroyed instantly. But that is debateable.

Sekhmet
16-08-2008, 22:55
Wouldn't the whole "we have warp powered armor" be an area of reality that a C'tan couldn't phase through?

No, because C'tan phase out of reality.

Imagine, say, you're trying to invade a castle, but the castle's defenders decide to surround their castle by a moat of lava 50 ft wide that will incinerate any kind of wooden bridge you try to construct over it (it's lava!). This would be a good protection against anyone forced to stay on the ground, but it wouldn't stop someone from flying overhead and dropping bombs/parachuting ontop of your fortress.

The lava river is warp armor. The people that can't fly are real-space inhabitants. The people that can fly are C'tan/Necrons. And the unmentioned lava monsters are daemons.



Also, if a C'tan was thrown into the warp, would it have time to create a Gellar field? I think that they might be destroyed instantly. But that is debateable.
No it won't be destroyed instantly as the warp isn't inherently nasty. Many ships travel through the warp without being changed too much, just as C'tan would do until they build themselves a gellar field (they have all the raw materials they need within their own body).