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Captain Frankus
03-08-2008, 14:49
Here's my thinking. This would be taking place around the end of the Roman empire, and just before the start of the Christian Roman Empire. Emperor=Emperor (No idea which one). Space marine=Pactorians (Roman elite). Guard=basic troops. Chaos=Eastern Roman empire? Eldar= Egypt. Orks=random barbarian tribes. Tau=Carthage? That's my thought.

ironcurtin117
03-08-2008, 15:02
The 40k setting is more like a combination of every period of decline/rise in human history. If you look @ it, the situation is similar to the fall of the 3rd Reich, the Japanese Empire, etc. What I think (and that means I don't believe it's what GW means) is that they chose bits and pieces of the darkest parts of Human history and transplanted them into the 40k universe. A lot of things can be compared to RL stuff: Emperor as Jesus, Horus v Emperor, as Lucifer vs God, Space battles as wet-navy battles in the age of Sail etc.

Shibboleth
03-08-2008, 15:09
It's kind of obvious that the Heresy era, with the whole Legion 'this and that' in civil war, borrows from the Julius Caesar thing.
Even the art of the period shows buildings in the Classical style rather than Gothic to evoke that feel.

Captain Frankus
03-08-2008, 15:15
Also I forget to mention that alot of the writing is Latin

Shibboleth
03-08-2008, 15:26
Also I forget to mention that alot of the writing is Latin
It's not true Latin. It's an invented form called Imperial Gothic.
Which means it doesn't have to obey the correct grammar, just make words that sound cool.

Goruax
03-08-2008, 21:57
Yeah, High/Imperial Gothic is generally bastardised Latin.
Taking the rough words from Latin and making them sound good, same with phrases, just splicing some literal words together, rather than using a full grammatically correct phrase.

DioīRa
03-08-2008, 22:08
about the architecture style and beliefs:

The emperor while alive was all for the things what happend in rl, down to earth and no religion and gods, everything can be explained by science instead by gods, religion (reminds me of the venture brothers: dr venture vs dr Orpheus)...when the emperor kinda dies (he ainīt dead yet....) everything collapses and people martyrr the husk of the emperor into some god....everything against the will of the emperor....or atleast against his beliefs and his great work....

thus roman style building back to earth (the way the emperor liked it) and gothic style buildings into the skies, heavens and god the emperor....

Kage2020
03-08-2008, 22:51
I wouldn't go as far as to explain the entire 40k universe in terms of the Roman Republic and Roman Empire, but the Imperium of Man has some rather obvious parallels with them. Or, at least, I like to think so. Indeed, I incorporate a number of features from the those periods into my interpretation of the Imperium.

For those that might be even remotely interested:

The Senatorum Imperialis. I'm rather fond of expanding this considerably, and making the High Lords a member of an elite privy council (the Concilium Imperatos) that are, essentially, the "first among equals." The Senate is drawn from the highest ranking members of Imperial nobility, or the Ordo Senatorum of the Nobilitas Imperialis.
The nobility of the Imperium is divided into the Nobilitas Imperialis, or Imperial Nobility, whose power extends over the body-Imerium, and the Nobilitas Provincialis, or those nobles that have their position as the result of the government of a specific world (read: fiat of the Imperial Commander who is a member of the Nobilitas Imperialis).
The client-patron relationship remains as significant in the Imperium as it was in the Roman Republic/Empire.
The Imperium operates in a series of "core-periphery" models, with the individual segmentum fortresses acting as secondary 'cores' to the primary core of Terra.

Not entirely sure about reading too much into the architectural styles. While that is a valid argument, I think that it has more to do with what the GW artists are trying to evoke rather than what might necessarily have been in fashion at the time. ;)

Erm, there's probably some more, but I'm writing in the Quick Reply box which means that I only get five lines of memory... ;)

Kage

CULCHAIN
03-08-2008, 23:15
The religious comparison is off, because the Emperor is non-religous and all facets republic,imperial and collapse of Rome were all religious just in different ways. The (republic-imperial) Roman empire would let you keep your religion as long as it wasn't a perceived threat.
Now they were similar in join or be conquered, once your in your a citizen and they would help advance your society

Kage2020
03-08-2008, 23:38
Erm, it doesn't matter what the Emperor's personal opinions where, CULCHAIN. The people decided that he was a god, and, well, the deed was done. It's Ovid on involuntary crack. (And to be fair, not everything is "religious" in the Roman Empire. Not by a long shot.)

And acculturation, or "The... Roman empire would let you keep your religion as long as it wasn't a perceived threat" is persent in the Imperium as well.

Kage

clanfield
04-08-2008, 08:11
just a observation but the imperium up to the point of the herasy is very much in line with the hitties history even the brothers fighting causeing there destruction(read primachs)

Phunting
04-08-2008, 10:41
The religious comparison is off, because the Emperor is non-religousCaesar never claimed to be a god, but was still deified after his death. I think a comparison is fairly valid.

Sekhmet
04-08-2008, 18:55
Here's my thinking. This would be taking place around the end of the Roman empire, and just before the start of the Christian Roman Empire. Emperor=Emperor (No idea which one). Space marine=Pactorians (Roman elite). Guard=basic troops. Chaos=Eastern Roman empire? Eldar= Egypt. Orks=random barbarian tribes. Tau=Carthage? That's my thought.

While it draws many similarities to the roman empire, it's not entirely analogous. The space marines are not praetorians, the praetorians were never attributed special powers, armor or equipment beyond that of the legions. The guard are not basic troops, because the legions were considered the most deadly fighting force in the world at the time. The eastern roman empire wasn't evil or sinister in any way (or at least not any more so than the western roman empire) and its goal in life wasn't to destroy the western roman empire, so they're a bad analogy for chaos. Eldar could be egypt, except that the romans at this time conquered egypt completely. Orks could be random barbarians. And Tau really isn't a good carthage.

Basically the Imperium's government is based on the Roman Empire. You could say their leadership is based on a Roman emperor, but most Empires deify their leader as a god, not just the Romans.

Norminator
04-08-2008, 19:37
While it draws many similarities to the roman empire, it's not entirely analogous. The space marines are not praetorians, the praetorians were never attributed special powers, armor or equipment beyond that of the legions. The guard are not basic troops, because the legions were considered the most deadly fighting force in the world at the time. The eastern roman empire wasn't evil or sinister in any way (or at least not any more so than the western roman empire) and its goal in life wasn't to destroy the western roman empire, so they're a bad analogy for chaos. Eldar could be egypt, except that the romans at this time conquered egypt completely. Orks could be random barbarians. And Tau really isn't a good carthage.


Chaos = Parthian Empire? The Romans sure did have a hell of a lot of problems with them. Alternatively, they could be the Germanic tribes, but as you said I think they (along with other random barbarians) are best expressed as Orks.

How about Huns = Tyranids? Invaders coming from beyond the borders of the Empire, unstoppable forces conquering vast swathes of territory.

Eldar could be Greece, although again they were well and truly conquered. Maybe the Hellenistic states to the east though could cover this?

Sekhmet
04-08-2008, 22:32
Chaos = Parthian Empire? The Romans sure did have a hell of a lot of problems with them. Alternatively, they could be the Germanic tribes, but as you said I think they (along with other random barbarians) are best expressed as Orks.

How about Huns = Tyranids? Invaders coming from beyond the borders of the Empire, unstoppable forces conquering vast swathes of territory.

Eldar could be Greece, although again they were well and truly conquered. Maybe the Hellenistic states to the east though could cover this?

My point is that you can't shoehorn races into nations from the era of rome - they weren't designed with that in mind and are so different that it makes no sense at all to even try.

icegreentea
04-08-2008, 22:39
Chaos = Parthian Empire? The Romans sure did have a hell of a lot of problems with them. Alternatively, they could be the Germanic tribes, but as you said I think they (along with other random barbarians) are best expressed as Orks.

How about Huns = Tyranids? Invaders coming from beyond the borders of the Empire, unstoppable forces conquering vast swathes of territory.

Eldar could be Greece, although again they were well and truly conquered. Maybe the Hellenistic states to the east though could cover this?

I think you're starting to push it now. Chaos, Orks, Eldar are all there because they were there in Warhammer Fantasy. No matter which Empire the Imperium was modeled after, those three have to be there. Drawing parallels by connecting specifics here is just over analyzing the situation.

Also, there are strong themes borrowed from the popular image of the Middle Ages. The whole 'Gothic' theme, power and role of religion in society, the idea of coasting on the glories and knowledge of the past, even when the details have been lost. Latin continued to be used far into the middle ages as the language of science, and trade. To be read or educated in the Middle Ages at all meant knowing Latin.

Norminator
04-08-2008, 22:57
I might not have been particularly clear; I know that the 40k races are not inspired by the enemies of Rome. What I am trying to do, as an intellectual exercise, is see if there are any other parallels just out of interest.

Firaxin
04-08-2008, 23:42
I've always viewed the Eldar as the representatives of the romans in 40k...