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Thirdeye
03-08-2008, 20:18
THE RULES:

BUTCH: “Before we get started we need to go over the rules”

GANG MEMBER: “RULES! In a knife fight?!”

From the movie “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid”


My goal in developing this system was to make Close Combat (“CC”) fast and easy but still include significant detail. To that end I designed a system which makes meaningful distinctions between different CC Weapons (“CCW”) and even including the firepower of ranged weapons --- fired at point-blank range --- but at the same time the system allows CC to be resolved with just a few dice rolls. Another goal was to bring WYSIWYG to infantry. I love modeling and conversion and I wanted a system that would allow players to explore this fun aspect of the hobby on the level of troops, squads, and characters. This makes Unit Development Rules (UDR) and Character Development Rules (CDR) a real possibility.

HOW IT WORKS

The CC Stats
Instead of assigning models a WS skill they have a CC dice. Some examples: IG = D6, Orks = 2D6, Marines = D8, Tau = D6-1, Kroot = 2D6, Nids = D8, Necron = D6. Eldar Guardian = D6, Eldar Aspect = D8.

In addition to the model’s basic CC dice, CC weapons give a CC bonus. Some CC weapons give a modifier to the models basic CC dice but most add a CC dice. But because certain weapons are more effective for attack than defense the bonus conferred is bifurcated into an Attack stat and a Defense stat. For example, Axes are great for cleaving (attacking) but not so good at blocking (defense) so their stats are D6Att/__Def, or simple D6Att. Swords are good for slashing (attacking) and blocking (defense) so their stats are D6Att/D6Def.

Some more examples: bayonet = +1Att, Chain Sword = D6Att/D6Def, Choppa = D6Att, Power Fist =D8Att/D8Def, Pistol = D8Att, Storm Bolter =D10Att. Some weapons also confer a trait. For example all Power Weapons have a “Kill” trait. Chain Swords have a “Peirce1” trait (-1 to save).

Getting “Stuck-in”
CC is conducted between models in base-to-base contact (“BtB”). Combat is simultaneous but the model with the highest initiative is always the first Attacker. The Attacker nominates an enemy model in BtB contact with him and roles his Attack (“Att”) dice against that model's Defense (“Def”) dice. The dice are compared highest to lowest. The Player with the highest score in each pair scores a hit. Ties are considered blocked attacks. Only dice pairs are considered. All other dice are ignored. They are considered misses or ineffective hits. If the Defender survives he can counterattack with his Attack dice during his initiative phase.

EXAMPLE: An Ork Slugga Boy is in BtB with an Assault Marine. The Ork has CC Att3D6+D8/Def2D6). The Assault Marine has CC Att2D8+D6/DefD8+D6. The marine has the initiative so he attacks first. He rolls his Att dice with results: 6, 4 and 3. The Ork rolls his Def dice with results: 6 and 3. The dice are compared highest to lowest: 6 to 6, 4 to 3. The Ork takes a hit and must make a save. The Marine does not get hit.

EXAMPLE: A Warlock is in BtB with a Wolf Guard Commander. The Warlock (CC D8) is armed with a Force Sword (AttD10/DefD10). The WGC (CC D8) is armed with a storm bolter (AttD10) and a power sword (AttD8/DefD8). The Warlock has the initiative so he attacks first. He rolls his Att dice with results: 7 and 2. The SW rolls his Def dice: 5 and 5. The dice are compared highest to lowest: 7 to 5. 2 to 5. Both models have taken a hit and must make a save. Since the WGC has used a Power weapon the Warlock does not get his normal save, but he does get his invulnerable save. Since the Warlock has used a Force weapon the WGC has a –1 to his invulnerable save.

Ordinary models are restricted to no more than two CC weapons. Characters and some special units can have more, particularly if they have gauntlet-mounted weapons. Marneus Calgar, for example, has a CC profile of 5D8Att/3D8Def

EXAMPLE: Two Chaos Marines (D8Att/D8Def) are in BtB with Marneus Calgar (5D8Att/3D8Def). The initiative is the same so both attack with their attack dice. Marneus has 5D8 total Att dice. He also has the “CC Specialist” trait, so he can split his attacks among enemy models in BtB with him. He’s feeling cocky so he decides to make three attacks against one CSM and two against the other. He rolls his first attack: 5, 3 and 2. The first CSM rolls his Att dice: 5. This CSM has added “Spiky bits” so he gets a +1 to his roll. The dice are compared highest to lowest: 5 to “6”. Marneus has taken a hit and must make a save. But Marneus isn’t done yet. He still has two more attacks. He rolls them against the other CSM. He rolls: 5 and 4. The second CSM rolls his Att dice and gets a “1”. The second CSM has taken a hit. Since Marneus has used a Power weapon (two actually) the CSM gets no save and is removed as a casualty.

Your thoughts?

Hellebore
04-08-2008, 01:56
Seems fine if you want to use a lot of different dice types.

I don't know whether fast and easy with significant detail is really possible though...

Hellebore

Thirdeye
04-08-2008, 02:15
I don't know whether fast and easy with significant detail is really possible though...

I’m saying it is, but you have to use different dice types.

Speaking of different dice types, I’m think’en 40K could benefit from a broad rage of different dice types. I know, I know. It’s a pain to have to deal with a bunch of different dice types, to have to keep switching die types in the middle of your turn, looking for the right type from a pile of different types, etc. So I had an idea: How about if we dedicate a dice type to each army.

The idea is that all (well, most) rolls for a given army will be taken on its dice type. Ex: Guard would be D6 army. All rolls to hit, save, CC, Ld., etc. would be on a D6. Orks would be a D6 army too. Marines would be a D8 army. All rolls to hit, save, CC, Ld., etc. would be on a D8. Nids, and Eldar are a bit more complicated. For Eldar, Guardians would be D6, Aspects and Phoenix Lords D8. Something similar for Nids.

Well, that’s the idea anyway. Your thoughts?

Hellebore
04-08-2008, 02:25
That's quite simplified and seems easy enough.

The arguement against is that not every race has the same ability in every field - orks combat versus shooting for example.

What would be the max dice value that you'd use?

The cortex RPG system uses the following sequence:

D2, D4, D6, D8, D10, D12

It then wraps around again, so someone who is beyond D12 is D12+D2, or D12+D4 etc.

That creates a gradiated increase where each dice value is exactly 2 points higher than the previous.

You could list a dice value for each stat instead of a number:

Ork
CC BS
D8 D4 etc

Hellebore

Thirdeye
04-08-2008, 03:04
That's quite simplified and seems easy enough.

The arguement against is that not every race has the same ability in every field - orks combat versus shooting for example.

Ork BS would be base D6 and WS would be base 2D6. To this you could add modifiers, +1, +2, etc. for things like Nobs and Bosses and stuff. It would still be D6's for the most part.

Of course this all assumes a dice centric system like SST, as opposed to a stat centric system like standard 40K. Speaking of SST, note that it is a base D6 system but does allow D10s in certain limited circumstances. That could work here, have a base dice for each army but allow D10s in certain limited circumstances. The idea is to keep the dice confusion to a minimum, so a standard dice type for each army and a standard exception – limited use – type as well.


What would be the max dice value that you'd use?

Dice types would be D6, D8, D10, and D12. D10 could be base dice for super elites like Phoenix Lords and Terminators (maybe) and D12’s for monsters, walkers, and vehicle weapons.


You could list a dice value for each stat instead of a number:

Ork
CC BS
D8 D4 etc

Yes, that's how it would work

Bathfinder
04-08-2008, 10:24
I think that this has interesting possibilities. At least is gives a different feel from what we use nowadays.
The sice of the dice roughtly equals ws/bs and the number of dice is the number of attacks. Here is the possibility for giving the opportunity for firing more that once per round included in the system, by giving BS D6+D4 or 2d6

Depending on how it is balanced, you could if you want to get exactly the same chances for succeeding as with tne current system.

Question: what is the advantage of using different dice compared to using the same type of dice with modifications for different types of units instead, but otherwise the same system ?
How do you see it?

Simon Sez
04-08-2008, 11:30
Question: what is the advantage of using different dice compared to using the same type of dice with modifications for different types of units instead, but otherwise the same system ?
How do you see it? I was about to ask the same question, would not a D6 system with modifiers yield a very similar result, as well as allowing the game to be much more accessable (What on earth is a D2? is such a thing even possible?!)

You gave Orks BS D4, so I'm guessing to hit in shooting would be a standard 4, Orks would have a 25% chance to hit, Guard 33%, Marines 50%. Is that how it works?
It sounds like it would work, but not for a large game like 40K, Ork playerz again: Huge squads of slugga boys, what are the chances of anyone having that many D4?!

Personally it feels like a straight trade from chart-system to dice-system, but a chart takes up less space, and costs less.

Try it in Kill Team, see it adds anything.

Plastic Rat
04-08-2008, 12:59
(What on earth is a D2? is such a thing even possible?!)

D6 / 3 Round Up.

OR

D4 / 2

OR

Flip a Coin

Heads = 1
Tails = 2

lanrak
04-08-2008, 23:04
Hi all.
I like the basic concept but how about this slight modification....

All units get a CC value , 1 to (20 max ?)
Weapons give bonuses to this value.

Poor CC units roll 1 D6 .
Normal units roll 2 D6 and pick the highest result.
CC units roll 3 D6 and pick the highest reult.
CC specialists roll 4 D6 and pick the highest result.

Then we could simply compare values and consult a table of results.
Which could have number of casualties caused and things like push backs , break through , run down , etc.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Thirdeye
05-08-2008, 00:23
Question: what is the advantage of using different dice compared to using the same type of dice with modifications for different types of units instead, but otherwise the same system ?
How do you see it?

You have to remember the modifier, or look it up. And you would have to add a bunch of modifiers to a base D6 system to even get close to the flexibility of a multi-dice system. Also a D6+2 is not the same as a D8. You don’t increase the range of a dice by adding a modifier, you just shift it “up”. A D6+X result is still 1/6 (unless you still count a natural “1” as a auto-miss).

A natural dice roll is simple, easy, and direct. The problem with a multi-dice system is having to manage all the different dice types. I’ve played games like that and, believe me, it can be a real pain. That’s why I suggested a base dice type for each army. Of course there would be exception, but goal would be a base dice type for each army with mods to reflect different units within the army. It gives you the best of both worlds, the flexibility of a multi-dice system with minimum dice management problems.

Thirdeye
05-08-2008, 00:26
You gave Orks BS D4, so I'm guessing to hit in shooting would be a standard 4, Orks would have a 25% chance to hit, Guard 33%, Marines 50%. Is that how it works?

No, I gave Orks a D6 BS. A standard 4+ “to hit” is not what I had in mind (but it is a reasonable assumption). I would use a standard 3+/5+, where the 3+ would be at half weapon range to “Point blank”. Point blank would be within one inch from base (a standard 2+). I would also eliminate the “To Wound” roll. A hit that fails to wound is the same as a miss. If we really need a “filter” for ranged combat I’m sure we can come up with something that takes less time and makes more sense.

BTW, we’re discussing these issues and a lot more over at “Advanced 40K”. Come on over and join the fun.

Thirdeye
05-08-2008, 00:50
Hi all.
I like the basic concept but how about this slight modification....

Hey Ianrak, glad you joined the discussion.

Yeah, my original system was closer to what you're suggesting, but I added CC values to get the number of dice the unit rolled (from a chart). I still had the roll-off (love the roll-off, it gives a real “duke’en-it-out” feel). I changed it because I didn’t like adding things up and using a chart.

BTW, we’re discussing these issues and a lot more over at “Advanced 40K”. Come on over and join the fun.

lanrak
05-08-2008, 18:15
Hi.
Here is my revised idea.
Compare the 'Total number of wounds of the unit', + 'Assault Modifier'.(Dice or numbers or combination of both?)

And consult the following table.
Beat opponent by;-

Up to 5, Draw.
Continue fighting .Loosing side stands ground but takes D 3 wounds.

5 to 10 ,Minor Victory ,
Loosing side is pushed back(slowest units movement rate.) and looses D6 wounds .

10 to 15, Victory,
Loosing side takes 2D6 wounds .And if survivors don't pass a moral check they automaticaly route.(If moral test is passed , loosing unit is pushed back as above.)

15 to 20, Major Victory,
Loosing side suffers a 3 D6 wounds , and any survivors automatically route.

21 + Total Annihilation.
The loosing unit is totally and utterly destroyed.(The winning unit may over run the defeated enemy units position up to thier movment rate.)

The values are just to illustrate the basic concept.But I thought it important to show you the type of results I wanted to include.
And I think this way the 'weight of numbers' is included in the basic game mechanic without having to' tack it on' as a modifier for 'out numbering' ...

Like I said its just a basic idea .

TTFN
lanrak.