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slaanghoul
04-08-2008, 05:28
I just want to know if there are any human civilizations that are outside of the Imperial control? I know about those world that have fallen to Chaos or Tau's Empire, but are there any other Hive world or FW that are "neutral", it's own Empire, or just like Tantooie (starwars, gangster control world).

The galaxy is a big place but any civilization worth it's grain of salt is listed on the map. So these human civilization must have space travel and so forth, not some lost world techno barbarians type.

Or has the whole galaxy been divided among the big players such as Orks, Imperial, tau, chaos, etc.. .. that any human civilization left is either part of the big players by now. No more neutral and such.

Oh I know that many worlds would try to break away from the Imperial control, but those worlds would be at war with the Imperial. I'm not asking about break away world, I'm asking if there are other human "Countries" in the galaxy that is not part of the Imperial Empire.

Joe Kutz
04-08-2008, 05:35
Early Rogue Trader fluff dealt with human worlds which were not under Imperial control - and it is often remarked that the Empire only controls a small portion of the inhabited planets in the current fluff.

So yes, there are likely to be more than a few human controlled non-Imperial worlds in the 40K universe. It is unlikely that any of them will be "Forge Worlds" though due to the nature of the Forge World's foundings.

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-08-2008, 11:49
Not ones that are known to the Imperium. There core idea is the unification of all humans and there conquest of the galaxy. If/when they find previously unknown human worlds they either join the Imperium voluntarily or they get invaded. It's as simple as that. And of course, if they have mutated away from what the Imperium consider human they don't even get the chance to join, they are wiped out.

The only way not to get absorbed into the Imperium is if you are strong enough to hold of there armed forces. Very unlikely unless you are one of the known big players.

So essentially the only way you will find 'neutral' human worlds that don't belong to the Imperium, Chaos, Tau or someone else is if they have been isolated from the rest of the galaxy (Warpstorms is the typical explanation). And that's not likely to last long.

Sojourner
04-08-2008, 11:54
Very many, although some will be a case of the Imperium having the world on its books, but when they come to collect their tithes the response is a bemused "...and you are?"

They generally don't have a problem with this as long as you obey their instructions when reminded who you belong to. Otherwise, they'll execute your entire government and if resistance continues, they'll nuke you.

Simon Sez
04-08-2008, 12:18
Very many, although some will be a case of the Imperium having the world on its books, but when they come to collect their tithes the response is a bemused "...and you are?"

At which point the visiting Imperial officer will lend the man a telescope and say "We're the guys with the nukes, orbiting your world"

I love this, it makes the Imperium sound like a Pan-Galactic Biker Gang, stopping off at a planet every couple of centuries for protection money (or materials, or people...):D

icegreentea
04-08-2008, 22:49
There certainly was, and theres almost certainly still are. The entire Macharius Crusade was about that. They went off in a general direction, and brought back human planets into the fold of the Imperium. Some were former Imperial worlds that got lost in paperwork, others isolated by warpstorms.. and the lost in paperwork, some were rebellious planets that hadn't been subdued immediately because of being lost in paperwork, and finally you have some colonies that the Imperium has never met yet. Great Crusade didn't manage to catch everything.

In all likelihood, there are human planets of the categories above in M41. Now, Hiveworlds are kind of hard to lose track of. But I bet it could be done.

Quakerman77
05-08-2008, 06:47
Given the size of the galaxy, there are probably developed planets unknown to the Imperium. Also, technically the Adeptus Mechanicus planets aren't part of the Imperium, since they are only allied to them and have their own sovereignty. Maybe you can count those? Although i guess since theyre techpriests they cant really be considered purely human anymore :D

Iuris
05-08-2008, 06:58
There are plenty of non-Imperium human worlds around. from undiscovered worlds that the Imperium has never heard of to colonies that have been out of contact for so long that noone remembers the Imperium.

Mostly, they are supposed to be at a lower technological level, leaving them easy prey for reassimilation. A high tech world is almost not to be expected (think one in a million).

slaanghoul
05-08-2008, 09:22
There are plenty of non-Imperium human worlds around. from undiscovered worlds that the Imperium has never heard of to colonies that have been out of contact for so long that noone remembers the Imperium.

Mostly, they are supposed to be at a lower technological level, leaving them easy prey for reassimilation. A high tech world is almost not to be expected (think one in a million).

I don't even think there are anymore hight tech world (high tech must have space travel) left because if there are, then those world will have it's own empire. If it has it's own empire, I'm sure the space zone would be large enough for one of Imperial ship to make contact and either join us or die by now.

Adra
05-08-2008, 09:34
I think the key term here is 'nothing significant'. Yes there are bound to be small human colonies that have not yet been noticed by the imperium or forgotten, but nothing so large as to be important. Nothing more than a planet, very unlikely anything as big as a solar system unless a warpstorm is keeping it safe.

Although there seem to be alot of human plants that have their own control away from the imperium and just pay tribute that is still a culture under the imperial boot. they keep nothing but what the imperium alow. as long as they stay loyal to the throne they dont get nuked and they will be forced to change their culture to suit the imperiums needs.

Joe Kutz
05-08-2008, 09:34
No reason to think there are not any high tech planets out there. Perhaps they lack warp technology or are/were isolated by warp storms from leaving their local area.

A civilization which isn't under the thumb of the Empire would likely have a much higher level of technology than the Empire (maybe not the man power - but easily the technology). Remember, to followers of the Omnisiah, invention is sacrilege - so Imperial technology has been stagnant for 10,000 years. A planet or star system which is allowed to grow over that amount of time will have most likely improved on the weapons and equipment that were cutting edge when frozen by the superstitious Tech-priests.

Dreadnoughts that punch like a titan. Plasma weapons which don't burn you. Tanks that are equipped with shielding. The Empire might be surprised when they show up to collect a Tithe and get their butts handed to them by a small back water planet who could care less about the Empire of Man.

slaanghoul
05-08-2008, 09:51
No reason to think there are not any high tech planets out there. Perhaps they lack warp technology or are/were isolated by warp storms from leaving their local area.

A civilization which isn't under the thumb of the Empire would likely have a much higher level of technology than the Empire (maybe not the man power - but easily the technology). Remember, to followers of the Omnisiah, invention is sacrilege - so Imperial technology has been stagnant for 10,000 years. A planet or star system which is allowed to grow over that amount of time will have most likely improved on the weapons and equipment that were cutting edge when frozen by the superstitious Tech-priests.

Dreadnoughts that punch like a titan. Plasma weapons which don't burn you. Tanks that are equipped with shielding. The Empire might be surprised when they show up to collect a Tithe and get their butts handed to them by a small back water planet who could care less about the Empire of Man.

I agree, but the catch 22 is..... if they are that powerful . . . . they would have been discover or they would discover other Imperial planets.

If they have the tech. . . I just don't see them having the power to travel, but decide to just stay with in their solar system. They would go out and explore and be discover or discover others.

With that said. . . I don't think there are any human planet left in the galaxy that is as advance or more advance than the Imperial.

The only way I can think that it is possible is if that planet is with in the warp storm as someoen mentioned. That planet can be so advance and has space travel technology, but can't leave it because of the storm. Once the storm cleared, the planet can be a new super power. However, advance the new super power planet is .. .. I still think that it would be no match vs. the Imperial because of the lack of man power vs. Imperial. Imperial can send wave after wave of ships and troops and that one planet will just run out of it's advance fire power. The sad part is, once the planet is under the control of Imperial .. . all the new technology will be lost because they would just deem it as heresy.

Norminator
05-08-2008, 09:54
Didn't Macharius come across a hi tech world like that? IIRC the one planet held off his entire crusade, until the Imperium redirected an asteroid to the planet and wiped them all out.

icegreentea
05-08-2008, 14:38
Didn't Macharius come across a hi tech world like that? IIRC the one planet held off his entire crusade, until the Imperium redirected an asteroid to the planet and wiped them all out.

Yup. Super high tech world that wouldn't give it. Their lasers and stuff blew up everything the Navy sent at them. In the end they dropped a giant space rock, in the process destroying all the technology on the world. The Mechanicus 'wept'.

There's probably a few more high tech worlds (above the level of rest of Imperium, or higher) around. The catch is the moment they're noticed, the Imperium will bring them into the fold one way or the other.

Hrw-Amen
05-08-2008, 16:09
Of course there could be ones out there that are so high tech that they just are able to hide from the Imperium as in cloak the entire planet or even system. Afterall they've had long enough to develope the technology.

But probably just a few isolated settlements as has already been stated.

Another interesting thing to consider is what about humans outside our galaxy? Given that even as we write this now in our own timeline a couple of our small orbiting galaxies are in the process of colliding with our own then it is not beyond possibilty that some humans may have colonised worlds in them? Although another 38,000 years may seam like a long time to us, in the greater scheme of galactic colisions and stellar drift it ain't that long.

HereticLosMorte
05-08-2008, 18:43
the fringe worlds or something like that?

check out the ravenor books, they visit some which aren't under imperial rule.

The Anarchist
05-08-2008, 19:29
many worlds are under the Imperium controll, however there are many that might only see a tithe collector every 100 years. so they can be pretty much seperate of the imperium providing they give 100,000 soldiers every 100 years. but i guess on papper they are property of the Imperium.
part of the Emperors conquest edict was that all human planets were the property of the Imperium, with him at its head. so in theory all human worlds belong to the Imperium wether they know about it or not.
its also not that hard to end up a seperate advanced world inside the imperium. if a world decides to rebel (not go chaos rebel though), the imperium is bit busy elsehwere so dont send a a crusade for 1000 years. in this case for those thousand years whilst the world is nominaly under the controll of the imperium it is in truth an independant world. however in the Imperium its always a matter of time before an ambitious commander decides to conquer himself a planet (returning it to the imperium as a result) and raises the men and ships to do so. Macharius is an example of this.
also since the time fot he the Great Crusade new worlds ahve been discovered or populated. so these worlds are free and independant, and normaly ahve some level of tech to ahve got to the planet to begin with. so until some beuracrat of the imperium notes down a new world in the name of the Imperium it is a free and independant world.

so yes you cna get worlds free of the Imperium, but it never lasts, and even if newly discovered the world is eventualy going to be noticed and offered the chance to join the imperium before it is forced to join the imperium.

Joe Kutz
05-08-2008, 20:07
While a lot of the Imperial fluffiness makes it sound like an inevitable machine - in the grand scheme of things, it isn't. Eldar have proved to be impossible for the Empire to eliminate and every time that they try to even take out a single craft world...no luck (and often they loose an entire fleet). Same goes for the Tau...and Nids...and Orks.

While the Empire might think that it is the undisputed ruler of the Galaxy - their control is tenuous at best and most rebel planets are small in terms of Tech and resources. Often fractured since they are Chaos rebels (and chaos is by definition hard to organize). Many of those which are more well equipped place a severe strain on Imperial resources.

But consider if you will a planet which survived the Age of Strife relatively safe. When the warp storms calmed down, they went out to have a bit of a look around and they bumped into this group of xenophobic sociopaths who were fighting in the name of the Emperor. Not liking the idea of being subjugated...they retreated to their home system (or possibly a collection of close systems) to mount a defense.

After a few hundred years an Imperial ship came through the area (after all - I don't recall any way that the Empire has of actually detecting life on far off planets...they are a bit blind without sending out a team of explorers/special forces to see what is what...so a few planets which are not on a trade path would likely never be seen or found). The advanced group blasts the ships from the sky before they have a chance to enter the star system itself and send back any reports. Few decades later, same thing happens. A century after that they send a small fleet to investigate the area of last contact and it too is destroyed...

Since there are several areas on Imperial Star Charts that are marked as dangerous and not to be traveled through, it is feasible that some of these areas might just be advanced human populations which don't want to deal with the superstitious Empire of Man.

Given the amount of time that they could have potentially had to develop new technology compared to the stated length of the Dark Age of Technology (when Man went to the stars and developed pretty much all of the STC technology) - the independent advanced races could be 17,000 years ahead of the Empire and have potentially gone through over 3 times the development that happened during the Dark Age of Technology (even more so given the exponential progression of advances).

Norminator
05-08-2008, 20:11
Given the amount of time that they could have potentially had to develop new technology compared to the stated length of the Dark Age of Technology (when Man went to the stars and developed pretty much all of the STC technology) - the independent advanced races could be 17,000 years ahead of the Empire and have potentially gone through over 3 times the development that happened during the Dark Age of Technology (even more so given the exponential progression of advances).

You've also got the whole 'necessity is the mother on invention' - if this race was so desperate to avoid contact, that would spurr them on technologically far more than if they were just sitting there safe and happy. Imagine if we knew there was a massive opposing Empire out in the voids of space, and how much expertise, funding and willpower would go into advanced space weaponry.

Phunting
05-08-2008, 22:21
If they have the tech. . . I just don't see them having the power to travel, but decide to just stay with in their solar system. They would go out and explore and be discover or discover others.What if they don't have navigators for whatever reason? Warp travel is more than just technology...

Joe Kutz
05-08-2008, 23:20
There are at least three ways to travel interstellarly in the 40K universe which do not involve warp technology.

The Eldar utilize warp gates and do not actually enter into the warp itself.

The Necrons utilize phase technology and do not enter the warp.

The Jokaero are able to bend space and actually move from point to point without even moving at all.

Still, just because a society is technologically advanced doesn't mean they would have the means or the desire to leave their star system. Considering the sheer size of the galaxy - and how much empty space there is, just because they do travel outside of their star system doesn't mean they would ever encounter an Imperial vessel or that an Imperial vessel would encounter them.

slaanghoul
06-08-2008, 07:40
What if they don't have navigators for whatever reason? Warp travel is more than just technology...

Who said anything about warp technology? I said space travel, there are many ways to travel beside using warp. They might have FTL space craft or just make small jump with out the navigator. How did you think human travel before the Golden Throne?

Joe Kutz
06-08-2008, 07:46
Warp drives (according to the newest rulebook - I think is where it is mentioned). Before the Golden Throne was before Slaanesh - and the Eldar still had the Warp more or less under control (according to Liber Chaotica). After the Eldar's fall - all hell breaks loose in the Warp and demons and stuff are able to cross back over again.

slaanghoul
06-08-2008, 07:51
There are at least three ways to travel interstellarly in the 40K universe which do not involve warp technology.

The Eldar utilize warp gates and do not actually enter into the warp itself.

The Necrons utilize phase technology and do not enter the warp.

The Jokaero are able to bend space and actually move from point to point without even moving at all.

Still, just because a society is technologically advanced doesn't mean they would have the means or the desire to leave their star system. Considering the sheer size of the galaxy - and how much empty space there is, just because they do travel outside of their star system doesn't mean they would ever encounter an Imperial vessel or that an Imperial vessel would encounter them.

True, however my topic is the human planet we are talking about here are very advance with space travel technology. I stated in my post that I don't care about low tech world because they have very good chance to be lost in the galaxy because they can't travel off their planet.... they need to be discover. Only high tech world we are talking about here.

You right that they might not want to explore, but 99% of all great things comes from exploration. If they have the technology to be able to explore, i'm sure they would. What kind of human society do not want to explore if they are advance? Beside .. . they know that their planet is not their origin , they would at least want to find their way back to their origin. There must be more of us out there would be their main drive to explore.

Anyway .. . . it would be cool if GW were to make another human army list that is not anything related to Imperial.

Joe Kutz
06-08-2008, 08:15
Sure, but like I had hypothesized: Maybe they did explore and didn't like what they found. The 10,000 year period which the Empire has been around for had many periods where they would have been unable to actually mount any real attack (too busy fighting amongst themselves). First contact between a hypothetical high tech world may have been during one of those periods...and due to the nature of the Empire, they would likely shoot first and ask questions later. If the high tech world survived, they might become isolationists. The desire to survive would be more than enough to spur the development of a fleet of space ships as well as some form of planetary defense (perhaps blow up an outlying planet to create a debris cloud and mount weapons on the resulting asteroids) to intercept any ships from the Empire.

If they did explore, they would likely pursue technology which would allow them to move about undetected by the Empire. There armies would also likely be more like a scalpel than a hammer. Small groups of well trained and equipped commandos - perhaps inciting rebellion in Imperial systems far away from their strong hold of planets in order to keep the Empire tied up dealing with other problems. Perhaps even go so far as to create a Tyranid attractant that lures hive fleets towards Imperial locations to cause them problems (maybe they are the original reason why the Nids came to the Milky Way).

You could go through and use the Eldar army lists and substitute out other models for high tech human equivalents. Wraithgaurd and Wraithlord may simply be robots - the wraithsight rule explained as being the software loading or other computer related problems. Rangers are pretty well usable as is. Instead of firing shurikens - the weapons may be the equivalent of flachette launchers...so on and so forth. Plenty of interesting options for hover tank variants - as well as for hover bikes.

Wouldn't be too difficult to write up fluff and what not to explain the army list. You would likely have to scratch build all the vehicles, but there are enough options within the various IG units to have a good start for infantry. Few bits from the Eldar and Tau in order to make them less crude looking.

Use something like the Robotech tanks as inspiration for the vehicles. They are different enough from Tau and Eldar - but you can actually find toys to kit bash if you don't feel like scratchbuilding them.

They may even use weapons from Tau and Eldar directly. If they are not xenophobic by nature, it is reasonable to assume weapons trade between the races if they contact them.

slaanghoul
06-08-2008, 10:00
Sure, but like I had hypothesized: Maybe they did explore and didn't like what they found. The 10,000 year period which the Empire has been around for had many periods where they would have been unable to actually mount any real attack (too busy fighting amongst themselves). First contact between a hypothetical high tech world may have been during one of those periods...and due to the nature of the Empire, they would likely shoot first and ask questions later. If the high tech world survived, they might become isolationists. The desire to survive would be more than enough to spur the development of a fleet of space ships as well as some form of planetary defense (perhaps blow up an outlying planet to create a debris cloud and mount weapons on the resulting asteroids) to intercept any ships from the Empire.

If they did explore, they would likely pursue technology which would allow them to move about undetected by the Empire. There armies would also likely be more like a scalpel than a hammer. Small groups of well trained and equipped commandos - perhaps inciting rebellion in Imperial systems far away from their strong hold of planets in order to keep the Empire tied up dealing with other problems. Perhaps even go so far as to create a Tyranid attractant that lures hive fleets towards Imperial locations to cause them problems (maybe they are the original reason why the Nids came to the Milky Way).

You could go through and use the Eldar army lists and substitute out other models for high tech human equivalents. Wraithgaurd and Wraithlord may simply be robots - the wraithsight rule explained as being the software loading or other computer related problems. Rangers are pretty well usable as is. Instead of firing shurikens - the weapons may be the equivalent of flachette launchers...so on and so forth. Plenty of interesting options for hover tank variants - as well as for hover bikes.

Wouldn't be too difficult to write up fluff and what not to explain the army list. You would likely have to scratch build all the vehicles, but there are enough options within the various IG units to have a good start for infantry. Few bits from the Eldar and Tau in order to make them less crude looking.

Use something like the Robotech tanks as inspiration for the vehicles. They are different enough from Tau and Eldar - but you can actually find toys to kit bash if you don't feel like scratchbuilding them.

They may even use weapons from Tau and Eldar directly. If they are not xenophobic by nature, it is reasonable to assume weapons trade between the races if they contact them.

OMG you are so cool! That is a really cool idea about the "master mind" behind the Nids and rebellion stuff. The count as troops idea is also cool. I'm shock that nobody has actually make an army like that, or at least I haven't seen or heard of it. Wow that would be so cool if GW actually make the fluff that the Nids turn out to be created my man 10,000 years ago in another part of the galaxy. The hive mind turns out to be men sitting in their ship with Biotechnology covering.

Joe Kutz
06-08-2008, 12:16
A more suitable 40Kish spin to it would be that they didn't realize what the Nids were at the time.

There scout craft bumped into a few dozen Tyranid scouts in the void between galaxies...so they lured them into the pesky Ultramar section. Once that happened word got back to the full Tyranid fleets and they came en masse. It would make the shining beacon on the coast a little more dirty you know.

Same goes for the rebellions and what not. The whole chaos gets a foot hold and the universe comes to an end bit...

tech adept
06-08-2008, 13:58
mabye they no longer use warp travel?
I mean imagine that you know nothing about slaanesh (because you were isolated during the age of strife) and suddenly find that when ever you used your warp drives the ships don't come back you'd probably think that you something is wrong with your machinery (and the STC data used to create them) or the warp has altered in a way that is to dangerous. So to stop more people from dying you destroy/hide/ban the tech and use other slower methods of travel (and perhaps throw in tale about there never being such tech just for good measure).

Ranger S2H
06-08-2008, 14:21
I've got a lot of separate pieces of home-made fluff about my independent union of human worlds to the south west that also include tau populations and eldar craftworlds (adamas system). it has seperated from the imperium by ion storms untill a few decades ago.
it includes stuff about a close to marine xenos race that has secretly been cooporating with humans since a few 1000 years BC. untill the ion storms came.

it needs a lot of work to fit, mostly to match he current fluff, but also it should be more evil somewhere, as right now it is as evil as tau.

PS, joe kutz is almost reading my mind.:P

Hrw-Amen
06-08-2008, 15:26
If need really is the mother of all invention then why hasn't the Imperium continued to invent, afterall no-one could claim it does not have the need?

On the other hand if a human world or system has had an extra 17,000 years to advance its technology then who is to say or know what it's needs are? It may have needs, desires and purposes that so far outstrip the Imperium of man to make it seam irrelevant and insignificant and not worth bothering with. They simply may want to be bothered with such primatives.

slaanghoul
06-08-2008, 16:31
If need really is the mother of all invention then why hasn't the Imperium continued to invent, afterall no-one could claim it does not have the need?

On the other hand if a human world or system has had an extra 17,000 years to advance its technology then who is to say or know what it's needs are? It may have needs, desires and purposes that so far outstrip the Imperium of man to make it seam irrelevant and insignificant and not worth bothering with. They simply may want to be bothered with such primatives.

I disagree because if you have the knowledge and the technology. You have to be smart enough to know that a galaxy war is something you can't ignore and hide forever. You must engage the problem and be "bothered" with it. Either go indirectly at war with them (create riots to divert imperial attention away from your system) or build a defend and prepare for war or try to make peace, but ignore it is just not smart for a smart civilization.

If you know your enemy exist, you just don't ignore them. You hide from them or you kill them. . .

Ravensgard
06-08-2008, 16:55
Thanks to GW creating a game with a Universe so immense, it is possible to start your own little empire. I'm trying to make an "Imperial Army" but not from the Empire of Men but rather my own. Fluff is that this System was originally found by some space wolves during the Great Crusade and made contact but had to leave because of the Horus Heresy. So they left a small outpost but because of the time that passed they were forgotten. Now they are rediscovered but like most know that the space wolves are very independent like and with the latest wars the Empire decided to make a pact of alliance with my Empire. Now some regiments fight for the Empire but we are indenpendant and trade with Xenos like Tau and study other Aliens (things that are very heretical for the stagnic Empire). That is why this system is beloved by many radical inquisitors of the Ordo Xenos (even installed a lab on a moon of the world Alfheim.
Want to know more about my system ? just ask or pm :cool::)

Joe Kutz
06-08-2008, 17:05
If need really is the mother of all invention then why hasn't the Imperium continued to invent, afterall no-one could claim it does not have the need?

Because Invention is the the most severe and heretical of deeds for the Cult Mechanicus. Punishable by a slow and painful death. Various fluff bits refer to what amounts to inquisitors who hunt down people who invent new technology and kill them.

The only things which the Empire will use are things which are identified in STC files.

HereticLosMorte
06-08-2008, 17:48
Anyway .. . . it would be cool if GW were to make another human army list that is not anything related to Imperial.

don't need another human army in 40k.

space marines (marines, DA, BA, SW, BT)
imperial guard
DH
WH
SoB

look at all the armies of humanity... don't need another.
you want high tech?

use the tau codex with human models. there's some high tech for ya

jfrazell
06-08-2008, 21:46
As noted, if you like the fluff of advanced human "mini empires," then excellent. Write your own fluff (remember, just because its not noted now dioesn't mean it doesn't exist-akak Tau, DE, Necrontyr). Use an appropriate codex (I too like the concept of the eldar codex representing advanced humans) and convert your minis to your vision.

slaanghoul
07-08-2008, 11:48
As noted, if you like the fluff of advanced human "mini empires," then excellent. Write your own fluff (remember, just because its not noted now dioesn't mean it doesn't exist-akak Tau, DE, Necrontyr). Use an appropriate codex (I too like the concept of the eldar codex representing advanced humans) and convert your minis to your vision.

I agree, you could really have a blast with conversion. Human head Banshee, Wraithlords robots, Guardian .. . . aka Starwars Stormtroopers. Infact .. . if you don't care about GW tourny... you can buy other mini company human troops and use them.

Hrw-Amen
07-08-2008, 18:26
Quote: I disagree because if you have the knowledge and the technology. You have to be smart enough to know that a galaxy war is something you can't ignore and hide forever. You must engage the problem and be "bothered" with it. Either go indirectly at war with them (create riots to divert imperial attention away from your system) or build a defend and prepare for war or try to make peace, but ignore it is just not smart for a smart civilization.

If you know your enemy exist, you just don't ignore them. You hide from them or you kill them. . .

No, what I am suggesting is that to an advanced civilisation that is so far advanced they may not even consider the Imperium enemies, they may just not consider them at all other than maybe as a simple pest. For example here in the now we have a bit of a problem with ants in the garden, they make their nest in the lawn which is a bit annoying as every so often we get them running everywhere. Whilst it is annoying it is hardly life and death. To the ants they probably consider it their home, (If they have the cognative ability which I doubt.) but I also consider it my home. We both exist in the same place and think of it as ours and in one sence it is both of ours, but other than a mild annoyance they are no threat to me so I do not bother to wipe them out.

That is what I am saying. Advanced cultures, be they human or otherwise maybe so far advanced that whatever the Imperium does may just be irrelevant to their continued existence. They may occupy the same space but a different dimension or something like that, who knows. The thing is that they simply not hide because like me with the ants I don't need to. If the Imperium does at any stage become to much of an annoyance then they may go down to there local hardware galaxy and get some Imperium powder to scatter on the Sol system.

Incognito
07-08-2008, 19:35
I just want to know if there are any human civilizations that are outside of the Imperial control? I know about those world that have fallen to Chaos or Tau's Empire, but are there any other Hive world or FW that are "neutral", it's own Empire, or just like Tantooie (starwars, gangster control world).

The galaxy is a big place but any civilization worth it's grain of salt is listed on the map. So these human civilization must have space travel and so forth, not some lost world techno barbarians type.

Or has the whole galaxy been divided among the big players such as Orks, Imperial, tau, chaos, etc.. .. that any human civilization left is either part of the big players by now. No more neutral and such.

Oh I know that many worlds would try to break away from the Imperial control, but those worlds would be at war with the Imperial. I'm not asking about break away world, I'm asking if there are other human "Countries" in the galaxy that is not part of the Imperial Empire.

Not really.

Just about every human civilization that fit your description had its **** handed to them by Solar Macharius which also marked the last time that the Imperium was undoubtedly ascendant.

That said. Imperial Governors have a massive amount of independence. The world is a dangerous enough place without getting a few chapters of Astartes on your ass, so most just allow themselves to be called a governor and continue as they were before with minimal interruption. Unless their sector or system turns into a major hotspot for some reason.


Thanks to GW creating a game with a Universe so immense, it is possible to start your own little empire. I'm trying to make an "Imperial Army" but not from the Empire of Men but rather my own. Fluff is that this System was originally found by some space wolves during the Great Crusade and made contact but had to leave because of the Horus Heresy. So they left a small outpost but because of the time that passed they were forgotten. Now they are rediscovered but like most know that the space wolves are very independent like and with the latest wars the Empire decided to make a pact of alliance with my Empire. Now some regiments fight for the Empire but we are indenpendant and trade with Xenos like Tau and study other Aliens (things that are very heretical for the stagnic Empire). That is why this system is beloved by many radical inquisitors of the Ordo Xenos (even installed a lab on a moon of the world Alfheim.
Want to know more about my system ? just ask or pm :cool::)

The only thing that the Imperium of Man hates more than aliens is heretics. The only thing it hates more than heretics is heretics that trade with aliens.

It has been a foundational proclamation, from the lips of the Emperor himself, ever the since the Great Crusade that /all/ humans are part of the Imperium whether they know it or not. To deny that is automatically rebellion and heresy. To suggest that the Imperium would turns its back on ten thousand years of ruthlessly enforcing this and make any alliance with some backwater Space Wolf-esque mini-empire is pretty preposterous. Especially one that seems to stand for everything they despise.

If I were to try something similar, I would place it as say a system that was only 're-discovered' fairly recently during the wars of Solar Macharius but whom accepted Imperial stewardship, thus the ruling elite remained in place. Perhaps the warp storms are particularly turbulent around it or it has vast quantities of some much needed resource which in return for tithing is left alone. You could work in a rivalry with the Adeptus Mechanicum owing to its possession and pursuit of technology that they feel is their sole preserve. There could also be secret harboring of Rogue Traders who are known to deal with aliens, perhaps making for friction with the Inquisitors. Both those that would wish to purge it, despite the interruption to such an invaluable and happily given source of supply, and those who use the nominally forbidden 'black market' there to their own purpose.

That's an imperfect example thought up in thirty seconds. There are ways to go about what you're trying to do without being utterly ridiculous as to mark the end of the Imperium's most fiercely held mandate.

I mean. Do whatever makes you happy, but at least understand the fluff before deviating from it to try to feel unique.

Emperor's Grace
07-08-2008, 20:04
No reason to think there are not any high tech planets out there. Perhaps they lack warp technology or are/were isolated by warp storms from leaving their local area.

A civilization which isn't under the thumb of the Empire would likely have a much higher level of technology than the Empire

I'd have to disagree.

There's a very good reason to expect lower tech: the long dark night...

Once everyone was cut off the DAoT societies would be all alone in an unfriendly galaxy. I'd expect most of them to be ravaged by aliens or demons to some extent.

I'm not saying that some don't still exist, just that I'd expect them to be rare and rather nervous about first contacts.

Joe Kutz
07-08-2008, 20:09
Just about every human civilization that fit your description had its **** handed to them by Solar Macharius which also marked the last time that the Imperium was undoubtedly ascendant.

Every human planet they came across - again though, the galaxy being a big place with a lot of empty spaces...it would be very feasible to miss a whole heck of a lot. They also didn't bother to clear out the orks - so an advanced society could lie within ork held space (and blast hulks out of the sky all day long).

They also stopped at the edge of the Astronomican's beacon - which leaves a large area of space that wasn't touched at all by Macharius.

Incognito
07-08-2008, 20:15
Every human planet they came across - again though, the galaxy being a big place with a lot of empty spaces...it would be very feasible to miss a whole heck of a lot. They also didn't bother to clear out the orks - so an advanced society could lie within ork held space (and blast hulks out of the sky all day long).

They also stopped at the edge of the Astronomican's beacon - which leaves a large area of space that wasn't touched at all by Macharius.

They've hinted that those worlds on the fringe of space are all dead Necron tomb worlds.

Joe Kutz
07-08-2008, 20:23
I'd have to disagree.

There's a very good reason to expect lower tech: the long dark night...

Once everyone was cut off the DAoT societies would be all alone in an unfriendly galaxy. I'd expect most of them to be ravaged by aliens or demons to some extent.

I'm not saying that some don't still exist, just that I'd expect them to be rare and rather nervous about first contacts.

So why again would they not exist? You are on a farming planet/mining planet/training planet...whatever. The warp storms start happening and you can't communicate with your neighbors. Now assuming they don't loose their heads and start committing mass suicide...there would be good reason to maintain your weapons and other equipment to fend off aliens and demons alike.

According to the fluff on the STC system, it contained information on making everything from a plow for farming to a tank. Since every colony had access to the STC systems, at the very least it would not be hard to imagine a planet which survived to be on par with the Empire.

Over the time, new weapons would be developed in order to better defend the planet against the threats that exist. New forms of transportation would be researched in order to deal with the warp storms. Without the loopie Cult of Mars stopping new developments, there is plenty of time to invent. Even if we were to assume that the planet in question were knocked back a few thousand years during the initial shock of the age of strife. They would not necessarily revert to stone age living...and if they did, they would not necessarily stay at that level.

Even if it was a 1 in a billion chance of happening...it still could happen (and statistically could have happened given the number of planets). If the planet was a new colony on the far western fringe of the galaxy (as far away from Eldar ground zero as you can get) - they might not have been as hard hit by the warp activity which probably would have been most violent around concentrations of Eldar activity. That would also put them a good deal out of the way for Imperial Crusades and other such silliness.

And most importantly - the fluff never says it couldn't happen, so until it says it can't...it could.


They've hinted that those worlds on the fringe of space are all dead Necron tomb worlds.

Which might also lead to some interesting fluffiness. If a Necron Tomb was discovered while still in stasis by Age of Technology archaeologists - those people may have been able to gather a lot of information and new technology to help them survive the Age of Strife. Perhaps the planet was going to be used as a military training post for the old societies, and had a concentration of engineers and others in the process of building a new base on a far off planet.

They may have been able to unlock Necron databanks and have access to the true threat of the Necrons as well as access to their technology. Maybe they work in the shadows trying to thwart the Necron threat...

Maybe. ;)

talos935
07-08-2008, 21:55
*skim reads page 1*

There are always worlds falling into 'enemy' hands and the imperium is constently rediscovering planets. As an example, the planet from Rogue Star and the Dispurex[sp] from Fulgrim. You have to remember some 'Imperial' planets have barely been seen since the Crusade.

static grass
07-08-2008, 22:35
I thought the original rogue trader said that the eastern fringe was beyond the range of the light of the astronomicon. All of the human worlds here are essentially beyond imperial control because of the difficulty of traveling in warp space with out it.

I think one of essential points of 40K is that humanity is evolving into new species one that is more psycially attuned. Without the presence of the imperium and it's agencies like the inquisition. Non imperial human worlds simply become beacons of demonic activity because of the unchecked psyker activity until a warp rift occurs and the daemons come spilling out.

So I guess the answer is yes but not for so long. Years? decades? centuries? It depends if they keep these pyskers under control or have a low population and thus few pyskers anyway.

Joe Kutz
07-08-2008, 23:44
I thought the original rogue trader said that the eastern fringe was beyond the range of the light of the astronomicon. All of the human worlds here are essentially beyond imperial control because of the difficulty of traveling in warp space with out it.

Yeah, eastern - not western. The Astronomican has a range of 50,000 light years. Terra is 30,000 light years off center. The galaxy is 85,000 light years in diameter. That gives you an area which is around 1,725,000,000 square light years - right around 20% of the area covered by the Astronomican.


I think one of essential points of 40K is that humanity is evolving into new species one that is more psycially attuned. Without the presence of the imperium and it's agencies like the inquisition. Non imperial human worlds simply become beacons of demonic activity because of the unchecked psyker activity until a warp rift occurs and the daemons come spilling out.

Or maybe not. Perhaps the interference of the Imperium has stunted the transition from ape to psychic ape. :p

If the regular purging of psychic genetic material wasn't happening...maybe humans would have already made the transition. Maybe there is a grand conspiracy within the Lords of Terra to harvest the psychics to prevent the change from happening. After all, once it does happen...what purpose will the Empire have any more?

Maybe one of those far flung worlds gets a helping hand from one of the older psychic races (Eldar, Slann or one of the more obscure lesser xenos races) in order to avoid the predations of the warp. All of them would have an interest in preventing a daemonic break out...granted the Eldar were a bit busy with other things at the time.

Emperor's Grace
08-08-2008, 14:24
So why again would they not exist? You are on a farming planet/mining planet/training planet...whatever. The warp storms start happening and you can't communicate with your neighbors. Now assuming they don't loose their heads and start committing mass suicide...there would be good reason to maintain your weapons and other equipment to fend off aliens and demons alike.

According to the fluff on the STC system, it contained information on making everything from a plow for farming to a tank. Since every colony had access to the STC systems, at the very least it would not be hard to imagine a planet which survived to be on par with the Empire.

Over the time, new weapons would be developed in order to better defend the planet against the threats that exist. New forms of transportation would be researched in order to deal with the warp storms. Without the loopie Cult of Mars stopping new developments, there is plenty of time to invent. Even if we were to assume that the planet in question were knocked back a few thousand years during the initial shock of the age of strife. They would not necessarily revert to stone age living...and if they did, they would not necessarily stay at that level.

My point was that the imperial society relies largely on mutual provision and defense.

1) When they're cut off, say from their agri-world, they may no longer be able to provide enough resources to maintain the stability of society.

2) An ork invasion or two could effectively cripple society and technology.

3) "Plenty of time" assumes that you're not being bombed into submission during that time and that your scientists/STC survive intact.



Also, given the reliance of the colonists on machines: if anyone attacked and destroyed significant parts of the STC system, could they replace/repair it?

The golden men (those that understood the tech/scientists) were few in number and not necessarily part of the stone men/iron men colonizing fleets.

Even if they successfully drove off the attacker, if might have crippled them for ages to come technologically.

Think Earth after the Drakh plague in B5.

It's really not that big a stretch. It's been postulated in the modern time that a limited nuclear war (or oil stoppage/resource war ala Mad Max), if survivable, could reduce us back to the tech level of the 1800's.

The destruction of production facilities and knowledge is hard to recover from when most people don't understand how their tech functions, let alone how to repair it.

Frex: I might be able to fix my lawnmower but I'd have little idea how to fix an advanced jet fighter, even if I had the appropriate tools.

nurizeko
08-08-2008, 15:38
There are no highly advanced independent human factions the same reason the humans of Warhammer fantasy haven't rocketed past black powder age weapons to be shelling the other races into the dirt with biplanes and WW1 era artillery pieces yet.

Because the fiction has artificially rescinded the natural laws of progression for any civilization to progress and develop beyond exactly what the fluff writers want.


If the GW fluff-team want the human race of the 41st millennium to hit a glass ceiling at a certain level of tech and proceed no further (unless they want it, Tau auxilia for example) then that is the level of development humans can achieve, even as xenos races all around them skim about with anti-grav drives and energy based weaponry.


Its why gods can exist, why demons can actually possess a person, why a SM terminator can survive being stomped on my a titan and yet die to some bad dice rolls from some guardsmen in TT.


Its fiction, and the author decides what can and cannot exist as he see's fit.


Suffice to say if 40k suddenly complied with the laws of reality, chaos, the Imperium, and allot of other stuff would cease to exist.

Faustburg
08-08-2008, 16:40
Because the fiction has artificially rescinded the natural laws of progression for any civilization to progress and develop beyond exactly what the fluff writers want.

Eh, the what now?

There is no such thing, no pre-destined tech tree like in strategy computer games, in the real world...

If a society can survive at a certain level, they can stay at that indefinitively, there is nothing "natural" about the technology we have today.

Look at various tribes scattered around the world without contact with the rest of us, living as they have done for thousands of years. They have not naturally invented things to progress along the same path as we have, because it have not been needed.

Joe Kutz
08-08-2008, 20:57
The golden men (those that understood the tech/scientists) were few in number and not necessarily part of the stone men/iron men colonizing fleets.

A lot of that will depend on how you interpret what little fluff exists from that period. For me, Golden Men are simply normal humans (and not so normal humans like the Navigators). Iron Men are androids created by the Stone Men. Stone Men are controlling computers. Since GW hasn't offered much more than a page of information on this time period...it is hard to say how things would have been organized.

In order for the humans to have made it to the various planets - they would have had to go ahead and get on board the ships.


1) When they're cut off, say from their agri-world, they may no longer be able to provide enough resources to maintain the stability of society.

An agri-world would likely have the best chance of survival. They already are able to maintain the large machines which are used for crops. They have food. The STC system is designed to use whatever materials are on hand - and not require supplies from outside. Earth, Mars and other hive planets fell into chaos due to the lack of food. They became cannibals and descended into madness (according to Codex Titanicus...one of the few sources of information regarding the time of strife). Think Doomsday but on a global scale.


2) An ork invasion or two could effectively cripple society and technology.

I don't think the biggest threat was from without, rather from within. As I mentioned above, most of the problems were not from alien attacks, rather panic and lack of food from the agri-worlds. A single successful ork invasion would likely remove any human life from a planet...not knock it backwards in technology and order. If the orks failed to invade, it would likely make the planet stronger and more inclined to maintain arms and armor to help with the next attack. Same goes for attacks from other alien races. The idea that feral worlds exist because they were attacked by aliens or demons is somewhat ridiculous. Those enemies would not have raided and left survivors to become cave men...rather they would have scoured the planet and remained to rule (with little chance of the humans surviving except in fringe areas).

That is of course assuming that any form of invasion could happen. The same warp storms that isolated human colonies would have likely prevented transportation by other races as well.

Other sources of problems would be religious fanatics who manage to convince the populous that it is the end of the world brought on by the machines. That would likely lead to a destruction of the machines and related materials in order to receive forgiveness. But again, if the planet is organized in a way which is less prone to such extreme reactions...they could well survive with fully functioning STC systems.


3) "Plenty of time" assumes that you're not being bombed into submission during that time and that your scientists/STC survive intact.

Yes, it does. I still don't see the problem with that though.


If the GW fluff-team want the human race of the 41st millennium to hit a glass ceiling at a certain level of tech and proceed no further (unless they want it, Tau auxilia for example) then that is the level of development humans can achieve, even as xenos races all around them skim about with anti-grav drives and energy based weaponry.

Which is explained by the Tech-priests persecuting anyone who practices the heresy of invention. A human culture not under control of the empire would not be limited (the Tau controlled humans being a perfect example). If a human system survived and was not under Imperial control...it could be more advanced than the Empire (or even the Tau given their relatively short rise to power).


Even if they successfully drove off the attacker, if might have crippled them for ages to come technologically.

Think Earth after the Drakh plague in B5.

It's really not that big a stretch. It's been postulated in the modern time that a limited nuclear war (or oil stoppage/resource war ala Mad Max), if survivable, could reduce us back to the tech level of the 1800's.

The destruction of production facilities and knowledge is hard to recover from when most people don't understand how their tech functions, let alone how to repair it.

It might have crippled them, I don't think it would have. Either way, GW hasn't stated officially either way...so saying no, without having a definitive reason behind it - doesn't hold much water. They leave those areas open for others to invent their own material...which from time to time makes it into the game itself (less now than when I first started playing nearly 20 years ago...but still).

One thing that a lot of people who don't do technical or mechanical work don't seem to understand is that it really isn't that difficult. I maintain my own wind turbines, I machine my own parts for my off road vehicles, I built my own house. None of it was terribly complicated...and I would wager that almost anyone with a high school education would be able to do the same if they had access to the right information (books, computers or related sources of information).

While the post apocalyptic fiction makes for a good time on the big screen - it never really made a whole heck of a lot of sense to me without a larger issue (food shortages for example causing the cannibalism on Terra).

However a lot of the writers and speculators have never changed their own oil - so they view it a lot like those in the 40K universe. A mystical, near religious ritual of keeping the engine running.

nurizeko
09-08-2008, 01:33
Eh, the what now?

There is no such thing, no pre-destined tech tree like in strategy computer games, in the real world...

If a society can survive at a certain level, they can stay at that indefinitively, there is nothing "natural" about the technology we have today.

Look at various tribes scattered around the world without contact with the rest of us, living as they have done for thousands of years. They have not naturally invented things to progress along the same path as we have, because it have not been needed.

Illogical.

Your talking about small tribes that exist on the very edges of communication/habitability/modern civilization.

Assuming any given non-imperial world isn't a complete dive, any human civilization is likely to advance, assuming no extinction level event. In the scale of a galaxy, assuming the abundance of habitable worlds like in the fluff, populated by humans, under normal physical properties of reality, plenty will naturally evolve to at least our level of existance (Earth being proof of it being possible).


Regardless you seemed to have failed to read and fully comprehend my post and therefor made an ill-thought response.

I am not entirely sure what your point is. I was arguing as to why human populations can stagnate at a certain technological level equal or below of the Imperiums, indefinitely.

You seem to be arguing the same point but in a matter suggesting an opposing point and position to mine.


Earth, our only example to rely on, shows that on a planet wide scale, the human population will as a whole advance socially and technologically over time, it is unavoidable. All it takes is one human to have a good idea and that idea to spread and progression is achieved, and since progression is part of what it is to be human, I maintain that, as you so interestingly put it, there is some pre-destined "tech tree like RTS games" for humans, its called our genome which gives us our relatively large and advanced brains.


But in fiction you can make of humans and their civilizations what you please.

The Venerable Archmage
09-08-2008, 11:19
...assuming no extinction level event...

I think this may be significant. The history of the Imperium is about twice as long as the current recorded history of humanity. The time elapsed since the descent into the Age of Strife is over three times as long. 17,000 years is a hell of a long time for bad stuff to happen in , whether it be an ecological disaster caused by using technology without the guidance of Golden Men eco-scientists, asteroid impact, daemonic incursion, xenos incursion, et cetera, et cetera. Once reduced to a lower technology level by a truly massive catastrophe, humans might easily stay there for quite sometime.

We spent most of human prehistory just hitting stuff with rocks, and if a truly global catastrophe wiped out all but the most far flung members of our species, we might easily return to a hunter gatherer existence, until some new Ur emerged in some new cradle of civilization, unaware that we had done all of this before.

nurizeko
09-08-2008, 18:56
I think this may be significant. The history of the Imperium is about twice as long as the current recorded history of humanity. The time elapsed since the descent into the Age of Strife is over three times as long. 17,000 years is a hell of a long time for bad stuff to happen in , whether it be an ecological disaster caused by using technology without the guidance of Golden Men eco-scientists, asteroid impact, daemonic incursion, xenos incursion, et cetera, et cetera. Once reduced to a lower technology level by a truly massive catastrophe, humans might easily stay there for quite sometime.

We spent most of human prehistory just hitting stuff with rocks, and if a truly global catastrophe wiped out all but the most far flung members of our species, we might easily return to a hunter gatherer existence, until some new Ur emerged in some new cradle of civilization, unaware that we had done all of this before.


This is a good point, and one likely suspect for the authors to explain away the lack of more advanced human cultures in the galaxy.

Emperor's Grace
09-08-2008, 19:21
A lot of that will depend on how you interpret what little fluff exists from that period.

As does this entire discussion, really...


For me, Golden Men are simply normal humans (and not so normal humans like the Navigators). Iron Men are androids created by the Stone Men. Stone Men are controlling computers. Since GW hasn't offered much more than a page of information on this time period...it is hard to say how things would have been organized.

In order for the humans to have made it to the various planets - they would have had to go ahead and get on board the ships.

The idea that I raised makes more sense in the light of the idea that the stone men were unenlightened humans that did the manual labor. That's my PO (and given other threads, I'm not alone in this). This may be the source of our misunderstanding on the STC issue.


An agri-world would likely have the best chance of survival. They already are able to maintain the large machines which are used for crops. They have food. The STC system is designed to use whatever materials are on hand - and not require supplies from outside.

They also have the most reason to be attacked by neighbors. Plenty of food and likely softer defenses (less men, certainly).


Earth, Mars and other hive planets fell into chaos due to the lack of food. They became cannibals and descended into madness (according to Codex Titanicus...one of the few sources of information regarding the time of strife). Think Doomsday but on a global scale.

And I never debated this, given my answer.


I don't think the biggest threat was from without, rather from within. As I mentioned above, most of the problems were not from alien attacks, rather panic and lack of food from the agri-worlds.

And I think it was a combo. PO's all around.

The invading force could be domestic instead of or as well as alien.

I believe it's actually said in the books that xenos took advantage of this shattering. (And no, I can't find the quote as I'm at work)


A single successful ork invasion would likely remove any human life from a planet...not knock it backwards in technology and order. If the orks failed to invade, it would likely make the planet stronger and more inclined to maintain arms and armor to help with the next attack. Same goes for attacks from other alien races. The idea that feral worlds exist because they were attacked by aliens or demons is somewhat ridiculous. Those enemies would not have raided and left survivors to become cave men...rather they would have scoured the planet and remained to rule (with little chance of the humans surviving except in fringe areas).

Unless, of course, the defenders actually won a phyrric victory and beat the invader despite heavy losses to factories and scientists. And I didn't say feral, we're also talking about feudal tech planets, victorian tech planets, etc...

RL:
Fall of Rome? The barbarians smashed stuff up, romans survived but the tech was set back.

England? I read that a working primitive prototype of a modern blast furnace was discovered in an abbey in England that could have brought the industrial age on hundreds of years early... except that the abbey was sacked by Henry VIII.


That is of course assuming that any form of invasion could happen. The same warp storms that isolated human colonies would have likely prevented transportation by other races as well.

Not everyone uses the warp. A warp storm wouldn't have helped earth if mars had decided to attack at the time. Or if the nations warred amongst themselves.


Other sources of problems would be religious fanatics who manage to convince the populous that it is the end of the world brought on by the machines. That would likely lead to a destruction of the machines and related materials in order to receive forgiveness. But again, if the planet is organized in a way which is less prone to such extreme reactions...they could well survive with fully functioning STC systems.

Woo! Dune reference not by me! :)

Why religious fanatics? Couldn't you just see war between say: The nation 1 with nukes and a need for fresh water and nation 2with 80% of the world's fresh water? Once the contact with Terra and other agriworlds was lost, why wouldn't nation 1 not want to pay nation 2's suddenly doubled cost. Trade wars ensue...


Yes, it does. I still don't see the problem with that though.

Invasive forces, inter or intra planetary, tend to target factories/science centers...


It might have crippled them, I don't think it would have. Either way, GW hasn't stated officially either way...so saying no, without having a definitive reason behind it - doesn't hold much water.

PO again. So saying yes without having a definitive reason behind it - doesn't hold much water either. RL would seem to indicate (in a historical context) that war often destroys or delays advancement in the loser (and sometimes in the winner as well).


One thing that a lot of people who don't do technical or mechanical work don't seem to understand is that it really isn't that difficult. I maintain my own wind turbines, I machine my own parts for my off road vehicles, I built my own house. None of it was terribly complicated...and I would wager that almost anyone with a high school education would be able to do the same if they had access to the right information (books, computers or related sources of information).

Can you fabricate your own silicon chips? Sealed environments? Chemical fertilizer? Carbon fiber?

Can you locate, mine and refine ore? (before you can mill parts, you need stock...)

Yeah, basic tech (up to age of steam, or early 1900's maybe) isn't terribly hard for a skilled worker to manufacture or repair. But this relies on knowledge, tools, materials, and time being available. Not everyone in society can maintain everything, particularly in the modern/digital age.

The size of the colonies, % surviving initial calamity, and how much they relied on the STC instead of doing it themselves would matter a lot in this calculation.

If a society that was DAoT advanced fell, how many of them would even remember farming/woodcraft after being raised in a hive?

And sure, you could ask the computer or check the library if they're still around, and it might get you to where the Amish currently are quickly enough that only half the planet starves ... but could it teach you how to re-build an orbital defense laser from exotic materials when those parts are not pre-manufactured?


However a lot of the writers and speculators have never changed their own oil - so they view it a lot like those in the 40K universe. A mystical, near religious ritual of keeping the engine running.

This speculator can build and rebuild engines (gas and electrical) and work/mold/mill materials from plastic to metal to wood. I can also chemically assemble any organic compound you desire and change the genetics of bacteria. I ran an aeronautics club. I garden and know herbalism. Etc, etc...

I can also change my own oil... and do not do technical or mechanical work.

If you want to dismiss everyone this way, you may be surprised. But it still doesn't make me capable of locating, drilling and refining that oil (or fixing an advanced strike fighter from the post war rubble).