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nazdreg5
04-08-2008, 21:17
after reading the ciaphas cain books i was wondering about gaun and his commissarial immunity. is he out of the chain of command or in because hes a commissar colonel?

ironcurtin117
04-08-2008, 21:22
It's come up I think. Commisars - Gaunt included - are still subject to discipline and their own chain of command. There was a disgraced Commisar in the Kill Team novel and Gaunt himself got thrown in the clink and put on trial for "taint".

Answer is yes, commisars are still subject to a set of laws and chain of command, its the Commisariat or something

Minister
04-08-2008, 22:06
Commissars are not officers of the Imperial Guard, but are instead officers of the Commissariat (both the Guard and the Commissariat come under the command of the Departmento Munitorium). As a result, Imperial Guard officers cannot bring charges against them. Nor can a Guard officer issue orders to Commissars unless the Commissar in question has been placed at his or her disposal.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
04-08-2008, 22:10
The Commisariat has it's own chain of command, based on seniority, independent of the Guard to a certain level. Although technically permissible, it would be rare for a commissar to challenge the authority of, say, a Lord Commander without dire need. A Colonel-Commissar, such as Gaunt, is a Commissar in every sense, with the honorary "Colonel" added to indicate attachment to the chain of command of a certain regiment. He's still a commissar, he's just the commissar of the Tanith 1st, in particular. Methinks.

LexxBomb
05-08-2008, 00:12
wasn't the 'colonel' attachment added by the previous warmaster for his service and as such he is a officer of the Imperial Guard... he does have to take orders from the Imperial Guard upper echelon command staff such as the new warmaster but orders that do not come from the strategic staff he can ignore due to his commisarant priveliges. I think in the Hive world this was demonstated... if he hadn't won the war in that case he would have been executed for crimes against the Imperial Guard

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
05-08-2008, 00:31
I don't know...my Gaunt knowledge is limited to hearsay and conjecture. Everything in my post is based on educated guess and general knowledge of the Guard.

Try Again Bragg
05-08-2008, 01:05
It is good to remember that the Colonel-Commissar thing was a mistake that Abnett made when he was first writing the stories. Fitting that accident into the fluff has been a challenge for fans since then.

LexxBomb
05-08-2008, 02:56
yer but the fact that he incorparated the mistake into future books means that he never intended to correct it and as such is has became fluff

Brother Siccarius
05-08-2008, 05:59
wasn't the 'colonel' attachment added by the previous warmaster for his service and as such he is a officer of the Imperial Guard... he does have to take orders from the Imperial Guard upper echelon command staff such as the new warmaster but orders that do not come from the strategic staff he can ignore due to his commisarant priveliges. I think in the Hive world this was demonstated... if he hadn't won the war in that case he would have been executed for crimes against the Imperial Guard
Yep, when he was given command of the Tanith regiment (originally supposed to be three companies). He does have to take actions based on the orders from high up commanders (but generally other commissars do too), However on his own level of command, he can generally make an overruling vote as he's also a commissar if he feels he has too. It's like being in a democracy with one vote more than everyone else, but with a pistol to back up that second vote's right to be there.

Something Gaunt was able to use in deposing Sturm in Vervunhive.

It is good to remember that the Colonel-Commissar thing was a mistake that Abnett made when he was first writing the stories. Fitting that accident into the fluff has been a challenge for fans since then.

Err...hasn't been a challenge for me or any of the other fans I've discussed it with. It's also been explained in the first series of books as well as the Ciaphas Cain novels (Funnily enough, Gaunt and the tanith are mentioned quite a bit, off-handedly. Ties things together a bit.)

LexxBomb
05-08-2008, 10:58
just be glad he wasn't made an inquisitor or an inquisitors agent. Then again he does have the full support of a living saint resurected as his benefactor... someing that even a Lord Solar Commander cannot order.

living saints are above all orders and theoretically only the ordo malleus has the political power to denaunce any action taken by a saint. If Gaunt was awarded inquisitorial powers (which are essentially just extensions of his commisarant powers) then he would be able to do his actual job of keeping the upper Imperial Guard command echelon in check. who knows maybe that might be what eventually happenes to guant as he does have a saints backing plus he is apparantly immune to the 'taint' of chaos... sounds like the perfect tool for the ordo malleus - whoes original role was to watch all imperial organisations and root out corruptiopn plus the deamon.

but then again isn't one of the tanith a member of the Inquisition... the tanith pipe player - he left with the saint into an inquisition black ship.

TheOverlord
05-08-2008, 11:46
Pretty sure that most of the posters above are right, that the Commisars are immune to any sort of legality issues from the Imperial Guard hierarchy, but they are NOT however immune to being judged by their own order, the Commisariat, or the Inquistion. Which is to be expected of course. The Commisar IS the Judge, Jury and Executioner of the weak-willed, meek and untrustworthy, and he cannot be judged by any lesser class than he is.

icegreentea
05-08-2008, 14:47
Pretty sure that most of the posters above are right, that the Commisars are immune to any sort of legality issues from the Imperial Guard hierarchy, but they are NOT however immune to being judged by their own order, the Commisariat, or the Inquistion. Which is to be expected of course. The Commisar IS the Judge, Jury and Executioner of the weak-willed, meek and untrustworthy, and he cannot be judged by any lesser class than he is.

How bout the Arbites? They're also the Judge, Jury, and Executioner of the weak-willed, meek and untrustworthy, and they cannot be judged by any lesser class than they are.

You'll have to come up with a REALLY convoluted situation in which a Commissar would end up under the jurisdiction of the Arbites, but it could be possible. Some Commissar of a garrisoned regiment caught selling weapons and supplies to gangers or something.

TheOverlord
05-08-2008, 15:28
Hmm... that's quite a kicker. Are the Arbites powerful enough that they can detain a commisar? I think that it might be possible, but they would have to go through the Munitorum Adepts to swing a charge at a Commisar.

However, there IS always the Catachan way of 'solving' a Commisar :D

Ender101
05-08-2008, 15:30
You'll have to come up with a REALLY convoluted situation in which a Commissar would end up under the jurisdiction of the Arbites, but it could be possible. Some Commissar of a garrisoned regiment caught selling weapons and supplies to gangers or something.

I'm not so sure, even under extreme circumstances a Commissar is 'above the law' except the laws of the Inquisition and of the Commissariat of course. The Arbiters in question could certainly make a report and seize those weapons, perhaps even hold the Commissar for a period of time, but ultimately he/she would be handed over to the Commissariat for a trail.

Where Commissars in the Imperial Guard stand is little fuzzy at the best of times. They're outside the chain of command, but if they issue orders to the grunts they're likely to be followed, either out of fear or courtesy. The main function of a Commissar is to make sure the moral of whatever regiment they serve with is high, and to maintain discipline.

But by becoming a Colonel-Commissar (or even General-Commissar) they've become inserted in the chain of command. This obligates them to follow the orders of guard officers above them, though they still have the authority and responsibility of their regiment, it's moral and discipline. In the case of Commissar Gaunt, he's both convoluted and solidified his own power by taking the reins of the First and Only. He is now fully in command of his regiment, but he falls under the military code of justice that he himself is supposed to enforce.

Just my two cents :cool:

LexxBomb
05-08-2008, 16:42
he also essentialy fills the role in the crusade that yarrick did at hades hive. both of them maintain strategic command of guard forces.

The Anarchist
05-08-2008, 19:08
How bout the Arbites? They're also the Judge, Jury, and Executioner of the weak-willed, meek and untrustworthy, and they cannot be judged by any lesser class than they are.

You'll have to come up with a REALLY convoluted situation in which a Commissar would end up under the jurisdiction of the Arbites, but it could be possible. Some Commissar of a garrisoned regiment caught selling weapons and supplies to gangers or something.

actualy easier than you might think. arbites are the civilian police force basicly. so if a commisar does a crime off duty, or a civil offence then he can be arrested by the Arbites. however his trial and punishment is very likly to be turned over to the comissariat, so in the case of arbites having an issue with a commisar they would have to restrain themsleves from judging and excecuting as they would with normal imperial citizens, and only capture and ruff up the commisar a bit (though be wary of the consequences lol).


as for the status of a Commisar, he is there to ensure that a commander follows his orders, and that the moral of a platoon is in good shape. however commisars ahve their own command structure, meaning that in effect if given the right circumstances any commisar has the right to excecute a member of the Imperial gaurd/navy no matter his rank (even up to Lord Commander). in this case he cna take charge of the position he has jsut removed an individual from, or pass it over to the next ranking officer.
as for a conel commisar, he is a officer of the gaurd and as such must follow orders from the gaurd structure. however if he judges the command unimportant then he can disregard the command and kill the officer issuing it if he belives it nessecary to do so (or if the guy is within bolter range). however being a conel as well as commisar might ahve downsides such as being open to investigation for actions as a coneol by another Commisar of a befitting rank. as was showen by Harks assignment to the Tainth to watch over Gaunt in honour gaurd.

just my two cents.

Allen
05-08-2008, 19:35
How bout the Arbites? They're also the Judge, Jury, and Executioner of the weak-willed, meek and untrustworthy, and they cannot be judged by any lesser class than they are.

You'll have to come up with a REALLY convoluted situation in which a Commissar would end up under the jurisdiction of the Arbites, but it could be possible. Some Commissar of a garrisoned regiment caught selling weapons and supplies to gangers or something.


Arbites are, in modern terms, civilian police officers. Maybe some kind of paramilitar, oppressive policemen...but still a civilian police force. Their jurisdiction is confined in the everyday civilian life of the Imperium citizens.

Commissars are some kind of uber-military police merged with a bit of political officer, good tactician and religious zealot. Their habitat is the military structure of the armed forces of the Imperium (PDF units, Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard regiments).


No Arbites in the Guard (not even in Penal Regiments, sorry) and no Commissars among the civilians. They're both Judge, Jury and Executioner...but in different contexts.

Brother Siccarius
05-08-2008, 23:20
but then again isn't one of the tanith a member of the Inquisition... the tanith pipe player - he left with the saint into an inquisition black ship.

That's...very mixed up. There are no Tanith currently in the Inquisition to our current knowledge, though they have had many run ins with the inquisitors. Milo, the pipe player (and also somehow special and important to the campaign somehow), is currently with the reincarnated Saint Sabbat at the forefront of the Campaign. The only person to go on the Black Ships from the Tanith is Soric (emperor rest his tortured soul, but at least he got an entire book dedicated to how awesome he became). Milo was once threatened with going on the Black Ships by an inquisitor, until he showed that the event that instigated the search was an impressively clever trick.


As an aside, Inquisitors are often also tasked with jobs almost more important than those in the chain of command that make it important to have authority above the chain. Cleansing mutants, traitors, cowards, and psykers from the ranks is a mighty task, and you can't have rank getting in the way.

Lt.Bradford
06-08-2008, 02:01
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but from Duty Calls.

There is a former Commissar that was sent to a Penal legion for some time, and in the book had become nothing more than a drugged up killing machine.

LexxBomb
06-08-2008, 03:39
That's...very mixed up. There are no Tanith currently in the Inquisition to our current knowledge, though they have had many run ins with the inquisitors. Milo, the pipe player (and also somehow special and important to the campaign somehow), is currently with the reincarnated Saint Sabbat at the forefront of the Campaign. The only person to go on the Black Ships from the Tanith is Soric (emperor rest his tortured soul, but at least he got an entire book dedicated to how awesome he became). Milo was once threatened with going on the Black Ships by an inquisitor, until he showed that the event that instigated the search was an impressively clever trick.


As an aside, Inquisitors are often also tasked with jobs almost more important than those in the chain of command that make it important to have authority above the chain. Cleansing mutants, traitors, cowards, and psykers from the ranks is a mighty task, and you can't have rank getting in the way.

So has Milo been transfeered into the Eclessiarchy (sorry for bad spelling) giving that saints are generaly considered to be memberest of the Soritaras (sisters of battle) which is the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus. given that ge his male he cannot be a member of the Sisters of Battle and as such wouldn't it be understandable if Milo was then as such an acolyte of a Hereticus Inquisitor or at least the agent of one.

Minister
06-08-2008, 09:59
So has Milo been transfeered into the Eclessiarchy (sorry for bad spelling) giving that saints are generaly considered to be memberest of the Soritaras (sisters of battle) which is the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus. given that ge his male he cannot be a member of the Sisters of Battle and as such wouldn't it be understandable if Milo was then as such an acolyte of a Hereticus Inquisitor or at least the agent of one.

The Living Saints most often come from the ranks of the Adepta Sororitas. This does not mean that other living saints who originate elsewhere would become part of the Adepta Sororitas.

I would assume that Milo was seconded to the Crusade's forward command element to serve alongside the Saint. Which means that the Inquisition would not be involved at all.

Kettu
06-08-2008, 10:57
A living Saint is simply someone who has been declared a saint during their lifetime, St. Celestine just happened to be a member of the Sisterhood.
They don't really become part of the sisterhood if found outside of the orders but they would probably become heavily involved with the sisters lest they run afoul of those who would covet such an individual.