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PARTYCHICORITA
05-08-2008, 01:27
Looked through the first pages of the board and didn't find this so i am gonna ask:

In the 40k deamons book there is a small text that tells the story of the guardian of the maze that protects all of tzeench's knowledge which is all the knowledge in the universe of course. The text (which a friend of mine had already read in an old rogue trader book i think) says tzeench has this maze with 9 gates guarded by a guardian that asks a riddle to those seaking the knowledge (a super hard chaos riddle of course) if they get it right they may continue to go down the maze, if they fail they get eaten by the guardian (which is a giant mouth). At the end the text tells that in whole history only once someone has been able to get all 9 riddles right and reach the end of the maze, the traveler had the appearence of a young girl with a black dog. When an angry tzeench question the guardian about how could this person get to the end the deamon said she must had been cheating.

Who is this girl? A group of friends at my local store discuss this for a while and came with some options: My first guess would be she was the changelling special character since cheating and messing around is what he does best, however since this is old fluff, i am not sure the character existed when this was written. Another guess could be a harlequin or another eldar or another powerful psyker with a lot of luck and wit. Finally it could be just some random girl from kansas trapped in the warp with a scottish terrier.

Alessander
05-08-2008, 01:35
I don't recognize the story from the RT era Realm of Chaos books. It's new.

Nazguire
05-08-2008, 01:37
Looked through the first pages of the board and didn't find this so i am gonna ask:

In the 40k deamons book there is a small text that tells the story of the guardian of the maze that protects all of tzeench's knowledge which is all the knowledge in the universe of course. The text (which a friend of mine had already read in an old rogue trader book i think) says tzeench has this maze with 9 gates guarded by a guardian that asks a riddle to those seaking the knowledge (a super hard chaos riddle of course) if they get it right they may continue to go down the maze, if they fail they get eaten by the guardian (which is a giant mouth). At the end the text tells that in whole history only once someone has been able to get all 9 riddles right and reach the end of the maze, the traveler had the appearence of a young girl with a black dog. When an angry tzeench question the guardian about how could this person get to the end the deamon said she must had been cheating.

Who is this girl? A group of friends at my local store discuss this for a while and came with some options: My first guess would be she was the changelling special character since cheating and messing around is what he does best, however since this is old fluff, i am not sure the character existed when this was written. Another guess could be a harlequin or another eldar or another powerful psyker with a lot of luck and wit. Finally it could be just some random girl from kansas trapped in the warp with a scottish terrier.

Probably no one in particular was in mind when the GW writers out there chucked it in. More likely just a story that was put in there to show that even Tzeentch, as all knowing and all powerful as he is can still be tricked and beaten.

I prefer to think it was actually Tzeentch himself doing it. Because Tzeentch is all about change for change's sake, having a plan that has a safe end to it is counter-productive to what he is about and a different aspect of him/her/it/what managed to bypass the guardian the he himself set.

Or if you want the other approach, one minor vortex managed to slip past the large vortex that belonged to the larger vortex that is called 'Tzeentch'.

jhon
05-08-2008, 02:17
or she is Nurgle and Isha's dughter ? and that little black dog is one of the mightest greater deamon in Nurgle's thorne room ?

vipernyc
05-08-2008, 02:30
It's just a little Wizard of Oz reference.

Lt.Bradford
05-08-2008, 02:53
I agree with Vipernyc.

ironcurtin117
05-08-2008, 03:40
I agree ViperNYC's got it: Toto and dorothy FTW. Maybe it also has something to do with other things like the grudge, ring, etc.

burning crome
05-08-2008, 03:59
i'm sure theirs a russain fair tale with a girl (black haired )and dog who asks riddles??

PARTYCHICORITA
05-08-2008, 05:44
Finally it could be just some random girl from kansas trapped in the warp with a scottish terrier.

Of course it's a wizard of Oz reference but it would be a rather big surprise if in the 40k universe it was an actual wizard of Oz character.

I like Nazguire idea of it beeing just Tzeench or a "fragment" of Tzeench (which after all is what the Changelling is). But i would still wonder if it would be that important for him to trick his own system.

Hellebore
05-08-2008, 06:12
I like to think it was Cegorach for some reason. Considering he is probably a sub vortex of Tzeentch anyway...

hellebore

horizon
05-08-2008, 13:39
Ofelia.
Pan's Labyrinth.

Lotan
05-08-2008, 13:47
Definitely a wizard of oz reference! makes me wonder though. Is Tzeentch just a scam artist like the wizard, claiming to have all the knowledge of the universe then when the girl reaches the centre all she finds is a old man in a rocking chair covered in cobwebs in excrement covered pants. It would be kinda funny!

Adra
05-08-2008, 15:57
Oz? You will be telling me the silver surfer is in 40k next.....

HereticLosMorte
05-08-2008, 18:44
you didn't know, adra?
that's what the deceiver is, silver surfer with a silly helmet and not on his surfboard. :P

Norminator
05-08-2008, 18:55
I like to think it was Cegorach for some reason. Considering he is probably a sub vortex of Tzeentch anyway...

hellebore

I'd like to think that as well, or at least one of the big, independent characters (i.e. not part of Chaos/Imperium etc.).

Have to say though, I'm reminded of the Cabal in Legion, using a serf to do their bidding (ala John Grammaticus).

The Anarchist
05-08-2008, 19:16
i think this fluff was written in the time when GW regularly threw in very little oddities with no real explanation into the books and general warhammer history. such things were done to puzzle and intrest the audiance (orginaly much smaller than nowadays remember) for the sake of it. sometimes these little fluff throw aways were picked up an and expanded in later books or editions, i belive people like Cypher started like this as well as though for slightly differnt reason the two missing Space Marine legions.
btw would love to see a page a book refernce to where this stroy comes from if availible?

just my two cents.

baphomael
05-08-2008, 19:54
i think this fluff was written in the time when GW regularly threw in very little oddities with no real explanation into the books and general warhammer history. such things were done to puzzle and intrest the audiance (orginaly much smaller than nowadays remember) for the sake of it. sometimes these little fluff throw aways were picked up an and expanded in later books or editions, i belive people like Cypher started like this as well as though for slightly differnt reason the two missing Space Marine legions.
btw would love to see a page a book refernce to where this stroy comes from if availible?

just my two cents.

I dont remember this story outside of the new daemon book, I think its probably now. Either way, it is going back to the style of throwing in random bits of interesting fluff that make you wonder - just like the Ymga Monolith on 40k maps, or when the C'tan were just a single throwaway line with no relationship to the Necrons.

Orca
05-08-2008, 20:55
Sounds like a parable, if Tzee was really all knowing, then he'd know how she got by the guardians. So there is knowledge in the universe that is beyond his purview and it likes to take young children out for walks.

baphomael
05-08-2008, 22:24
Sounds like a parable, if Tzee was really all knowing, then he'd know how she got by the guardians. So there is knowledge in the universe that is beyond his purview and it likes to take young children out for walks.

Of course, Tzeentch is fickle and capricious enough to allow it for the sake of allowing it - afterall, he is the ultimate embodiment of change, mutation, obfuscation and scheming. Afterall, one of his greatest mortal champions is trying to elevate himself to the position of a rival god.

Tzeentch may be all knowing - but that doesnt mean he will always act to prevent things. Afterall, if Yahweh is supposed to be omniscient, why did he not anticipate the Fall of Man or the Fall of a third of his Angelic host?

Tzeentch moves in mysterious ways ;)

Burning Star IV
05-08-2008, 22:30
I have no idea what any of it is/ means, but I like to see this sort of thing in 40k. It's original (insofar as the little girl doesn't, so far as I can tell, have a connection to an existing faction) and pretty creepy, which is something chaos needs. Blatant daemonic incursions and warp rifts etc. are all well and good, but more subtle material is also appealing.

olmsted
05-08-2008, 22:56
tzeentch is protected in that he knows all things. maybe he let her through because he wanted a snack.

if he saw her come and saw no negative aspects then why stop it?

khorne and nurgle threw thousands if not millions of daemons at tzeentch so khorne could gain a new sword. could tzeentch have stopped it? yes or could he just summon back his troops and let khorne kill off most of his army?

PARTYCHICORITA
06-08-2008, 13:49
I like to think it was Cegorach for some reason. Considering he is probably a sub vortex of Tzeentch anyway...

hellebore

Who is Cegorach? :eek:

Nazguire
06-08-2008, 13:54
Who is Cegorach? :eek:


The Eldar Laughing God, Trickster God, basically Loki from Norse myth in Eldar form. Patron of the Harlequins.

Ranger S2H
06-08-2008, 14:06
think its something completely new, I like the idea of a little girl with a small dog walking through the warp between huge daemons and other evil, acting like its completely normal. she would be an anomaly of good surrounded by evil, and the gods of chaos are scared of it, but somehow cant destroy her.

could also be the daughter of the emperors soul in the warp, she has lived in the warp her whole life, and it has no secrets to her.

I made this all up, but it would make sense with a lof of archetypes about small girls and evil daemons (some horrormovies, F.E.A.R.)

Mad Jack Deacon
06-08-2008, 15:55
I'm sorry. All the hypothesis concerning "it's really this, or really that 40K entity in disguise" are just too normative in the metagame of the 40K mythology. I like the idea better that back in the dark lost history of Terra that an early prescient reporter for the Evening Post forsaw the victory of the little dark-haired girl and her black dog. Thusly The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is one of the earliest precognitive and prophetic texts of the 41st Millennium.

And if your only exposure to the land of Oz is from the wonderful Judy Garland film, read the book. It's a helluva lot darker than the film. Grim stuff. Definitly Tzeentchian!

Being completely ignorant of the Emperor and the grim dark future of humanity, Mr. Baum set down his visions in an accessable tale and in a form that made sense to him at the time. Luckily for him the Inquisition didn't exist in its current 40K form. He definitely would've been creating seditious materials, not to mention fodder for the Astronomicon and the Golden Throne...

Charax
06-08-2008, 16:04
sometimes a little girl is just a little girl....

however, it would be rather interesting to know what happened afterwards...

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-08-2008, 16:14
The Eldar Laughing God, Trickster God, basically Loki from Norse myth in Eldar form. Patron of the Harlequins.


Just a minor mythological point, but he doesn't seem very much like Loke (or Loki if you want the English name) to me.

He might be a trickster god, and he might technically work with the 'good guys', but his tricks are selfish and destructive, and he won't do anything for others unless he is forced to. And he and his children have a large part in Ragnerok, and none of it good. There is a reason(he got Balder killed) why he ended up being tied in a cave with a snake dripping poison on him and a hawk eating at his liver. (Or something like that, can't remember the details just now).

Brother Siccarius
06-08-2008, 18:53
Just a minor mythological point, but he doesn't seem very much like Loke (or Loki if you want the English name) to me.

He might be a trickster god, and he might technically work with the 'good guys', but his tricks are selfish and destructive, and he won't do anything for others unless he is forced to. And he and his children have a large part in Ragnerok, and none of it good. There is a reason(he got Balder killed) why he ended up being tied in a cave with a snake dripping poison on him and a hawk eating at his liver. (Or something like that, can't remember the details just now).

Yeah, yeah, you kill one of the people who slaughtered your race and suddenly you're the bad guy..
Despite what a lot of people think about Loki, he also did a lot of good for the Norse gods (His tricks always ending with the gods better off in the long run), however, was always considered less because of his heritage.

The Eldar Laughing God, Trickster God, basically Loki from Norse myth in Eldar form. Patron of the Harlequins.
...or any other trickster diety or folk hero in pretty much any other religion or culture.


Besides, if anyone was going to do it, I might assume it would be one of the Apex twins.

Mad Jack Deacon
06-08-2008, 20:30
I did like the tale of how Loki and Thor fooled Thrymr into returning Mjolnir by dressing Thor up like Freya.

And that's why you keep trickster gods (like Loki, Anansi, Kokopelle, Coyote and Raven, Prometheus (to a certain extent), Puck, Renart, Kitsune, Papa Legba, and Baron Samedi just to name a few) around. You're almost always guarenteed to get a good story out of it all.

Condottiere
06-08-2008, 21:21
Just a minor mythological point, but he doesn't seem very much like Loke (or Loki if you want the English name) to me.

He might be a trickster god, and he might technically work with the 'good guys', but his tricks are selfish and destructive, and he won't do anything for others unless he is forced to. And he and his children have a large part in Ragnerok, and none of it good. There is a reason(he got Balder killed) why he ended up being tied in a cave with a snake dripping poison on him and a hawk eating at his liver. (Or something like that, can't remember the details just now).

Pantheons and mythologies evolve - for some reason which isn't clear to me, Loki seems to have become bitter, possibly disillusioned, and his escapades turned darker and viciously malicious, to the point that he arranged for the death of the most beloved of all gods, Baldr.

So we're probably dealing with the early form of Loki, rather than the later version.

Alessander
06-08-2008, 21:40
GW does throw in random mysteries just for the hell of it. One of the earliest of these was while scavenging the very first found genestealer-infested space hulks, a marine scout squad found a very ancient Black Legionnaire helmet.

[CLASSIFIED]
07-08-2008, 05:46
This small piece of background story is very nicely crafted.

Zeddicus
07-08-2008, 17:49
Indeed, it was one of my favorite parts of the new Daemon Codex.

GavT
07-08-2008, 19:39
Off-topic aside: There are many different trickster deities across world history and tradition, why does everyone focus on Loki? He's one of the least interesting tricksters if you ask me... I suppose he's just got the best PR company :p

GAV

Neftus
07-08-2008, 23:20
I'm pretty sure Tzeentch isn't actually omniscient or all knowing. Although he is probably the smartest entity in the 40k universe he is still finite and beatable to some degree. You always have to take Tzeentch's fluff with a grain of salt simply because of his manipulative nature.

Nevertheless, It's definitely a good story and one of the reasons why I like 40k.

Silly, dark humor.

Heru Talon
08-08-2008, 00:26
Afterall, if Yahweh is supposed to be omniscient,
Just because something says it is omniscient or is supposed to be omniscient doesn't mean it is. Tzeentch as portrayed by the Daemon Codex is obviously not entirely all knowing.

VanHel
08-08-2008, 01:20
Pantheons and mythologies evolve - for some reason which isn't clear to me, Loki seems to have become bitter, possibly disillusioned, and his escapades turned darker and viciously malicious, to the point that he arranged for the death of the most beloved of all gods, Baldr.

So we're probably dealing with the early form of Loki, rather than the later version.

You could say that Loki wasn't doing evil when he killed Baldr. The way I read the mythos is that everything eventually dies. God, man, animal, everything. So when Baldr became immortal he essentially became an abomination and thus it could be interpreted as Loki trying to right that which was wrong with nature. Of course the rest of the group doesn't get it and tortures him till Ragnork. Where he emerges and wrecks the place. Which is understandable considering the previous treatment he had. Now, I'm not saying that this is right, but it's an interesting theory.

To be on topic though, I think this is a nice little bit of story.

Crispian25
08-08-2008, 02:04
Am I one of the only people to remember this scene from Labyrinth(sp?)? When Jennifer Connolly's character comes across the two doors with their guardians. Granted, there's not a small dog, but mix that with Dorothy Gale, and you've got your answer. Maybe.

thechosenone
08-08-2008, 03:19
I'm sorry. All the hypothesis concerning "it's really this, or really that 40K entity in disguise" are just too normative in the metagame of the 40K mythology. I like the idea better that back in the dark lost history of Terra that an early prescient reporter for the Evening Post forsaw the victory of the little dark-haired girl and her black dog. Thusly The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is one of the earliest precognitive and prophetic texts of the 41st Millennium.

And if your only exposure to the land of Oz is from the wonderful Judy Garland film, read the book. It's a helluva lot darker than the film. Grim stuff. Definitly Tzeentchian!

Being completely ignorant of the Emperor and the grim dark future of humanity, Mr. Baum set down his visions in an accessable tale and in a form that made sense to him at the time. Luckily for him the Inquisition didn't exist in its current 40K form. He definitely would've been creating seditious materials, not to mention fodder for the Astronomicon and the Golden Throne...

I second the reading of the books. For that like war porn the scare crow and the tin woodsmen kill SO MANY THINGS and very gruesome fashions.


Am I one of the only people to remember this scene from Labyrinth(sp?)? When Jennifer Connolly's character comes across the two doors with their guardians. Granted, there's not a small dog, but mix that with Dorothy Gale, and you've got your answer. Maybe.

There is a dog in that story. I think he wears a little kaiser hat and his rather belligerent. He's not in that scene though

Mad Jack Deacon
08-08-2008, 06:35
Off-topic aside: There are many different trickster deities across world history and tradition, why does everyone focus on Loki? He's one of the least interesting tricksters if you ask me... I suppose he's just got the best PR company :p

GAV

C'mon Gav! I listed trickster gods from Japan, Africa, Europe, the Caribbean and North America, but I also could've thrown in Baba Yaga from Russia, The Monkey King (Sun Wukong) from China, Maui from Hawaii, or even Odysseus (human, but still a trickster).

My personal favorite? Anansi. Anansi got away with waaaay more than Loki ever did. Anansi stole the Tiger's balls, and got all the other animals to laugh at Tiger because Tiger was forced to wear Anansi's tiny spider balls.

But regardless of what trickster god you identify with, most people will identify with trickster gods before they identify with the more powerful ones. It's usually the trickster gods that aid man in times of need, or are man's greatest patrons.

After all can Khaine snatch your Eldar soul away from She Who Thirsts like Cegorach can? If I were an Eldar, I'd so want to be a Harlequin. Sure I've got to wear funny pants and dance a lot, but the benefits definitely outweigh the drawbacks...

Admittedly we probably latch onto Loki because he's a European God, and GW's players tend to be Euro-centric.

Is it fair the other gods get short shrift? Nope. Not at all.

Cheesolith
08-08-2008, 08:25
My own theories in order of likely to unlikely:

1. GW messing with us.

2. Oz Refference.

3. Tzeentch decides to see if his own defenses actualy work(you would be suprised how many humans skip this when they think they got an idea)

4. Khorne is generaly portrayed as a black dog and chaos gods like to pull pranks on eachother these days.

ChrisMurray
08-08-2008, 13:01
I think it's just done to confuse us, or make us wonder and go on web forums to discuss it :)

On a different note slightly, wouldn't the riddles be worded and done so that there was no fixed answer as he is the lord of change, surely the answer to each riddle would be done so that it could be many things and therefore never correct.

Emperor's Grace
08-08-2008, 14:40
wouldn't the riddles be worded and done so that there was no fixed answer

Like the "Questions Three"?

Where the answer is dependent on the answerer?

"Blue, no yellow........" :D


Off-topic aside: There are many different trickster deities across world history and tradition, why does everyone focus on Loki? He's one of the least interesting tricksters if you ask me... I suppose he's just got the best PR company :p


Admittedly we probably latch onto Loki because he's a European God, and GW's players tend to be Euro-centric.

Loki's definitely got the best PR agent. He's been in comics, movies, computer games, RPG's, etc...

I blame "The Mask" particularly. Everyone's seen that movie and Loki get's a prime mention.

@ MJD: That list's impressive, BTW. I like to collect and read mythology from around the world as a hobby but you have a name or two that I've never seen. Off to Wiki...

Rlyehable
08-08-2008, 15:07
...In the 40k deamons book there is a small text that tells the story of the guardian of the maze that protects all of tzeench's knowledge which is all the knowledge in the universe of course. The text (which a friend of mine had already read in an old rogue trader book i think) says tzeench has this maze with 9 gates guarded by a guardian that asks a riddle to those seaking the knowledge (a super hard chaos riddle of course) if they get it right they may continue to go down the maze, if they fail they get eaten by the guardian (which is a giant mouth). At the end the text tells that in whole history only once someone has been able to get all 9 riddles right and reach the end of the maze, the traveler had the appearence of a young girl with a black dog. When an angry tzeench question the guardian about how could this person get to the end the deamon said she must had been cheating.

Just to throw in another note, in "Brothers of the Snake" (BL stories featuring the Iron Snakes chapter), the main character encounters a girl with a black dog. In the following stories, the black dog seems to be some form of 'spirit guide' that guides the main character in his dreams/visions.

Khaeron Baoth
08-08-2008, 20:12
I got this idea from that story: Tzeentch is preparing ultimate change: His own destruction and creation of new god of change. New god would be that little girl (or her dog).

Heru Talon
08-08-2008, 21:42
When I first read it I thought it was something like Tracker and Toadkiller Dog from the Black Company Books by Glen Cook (both were demons in disguise). I also get the "Alma" feeling about the little girl (F.E.A.R.). I didn't catch the Wizard of Oz reference until people mentioned it but I can't help but feel it's still something sinister (and I'm not convinced that it was Tzeentch in disguise testing his defenses as that would just be lame).

PARTYCHICORITA
09-08-2008, 04:27
I don't recognize the story from the RT era Realm of Chaos books. It's new.

According to my friend it's from a book called "The Lost and the dammed" which he says it's quiet old.

As for the identity of the girl: It would be really cool if it was the eldar laughing god (isn't he name "Loec"?) after all if i recall correctly he has some conection to the black library.
As for it beeing Tzeench himself i don't know. The Changelling would be more likely IMO.

Epicenter
09-08-2008, 05:01
There's a tendency of GW's fluffwriters to present the Chaos gods as essentially all-powerful - they never can be defeated and even a setback to their plans isn't really a setback. Tzeentch is the worst for the really tiresome schtick of "I'm not defeated, I meant to do that. It's all part of my plan"-thing. It's an overused convention and I think that little fluff text box was poking fun at the way that 40k's writers really go overboard with that whole thing on occasion by showing that the Dark Gods can indeed be defeated (or perhaps even outright "pwned" if you will) by ... a girl and her dog.

Master Stark
09-08-2008, 05:42
;2844131']This small piece of background story is very nicely crafted.

Can't argue with that. It's got just the right mix!

Bran Dawri
10-08-2008, 16:08
There's a tendency of GW's fluffwriters to present the Chaos gods as essentially all-powerful - they never can be defeated and even a setback to their plans isn't really a setback. Tzeentch is the worst for the really tiresome schtick of "I'm not defeated, I meant to do that. It's all part of my plan"-thing. It's an overused convention and I think that little fluff text box was poking fun at the way that 40k's writers really go overboard with that whole thing on occasion by showing that the Dark Gods can indeed be defeated (or perhaps even outright "pwned" if you will) by ... a girl and her dog.

QFT - and that would be a very cool interpretation.
However, meaningless speculation about their identity is too cool to pass up.

I'd also like to add that in Norse mythology Loki isn't the only trickster god - Odin, himself is quite the prankster as well, and actually has several pets...

Askari
10-08-2008, 22:10
I also get the "Alma" feeling about the little girl (F.E.A.R.).

Stop mentioning F.E.A.R.

It scares the crap out of me and I miss sleep.

=)

On-Topic.
It could very well be Tzeentch himself, maybe not for testing but for the hell of it.

The girl could also be a rising warp entity herself, a kind of rival to Tzeentch's power, and she decides to prove her worth, and show Tzeentch isn't as powerful as he himself thinks.

I don't think it'd be an Eldar God, because they really don't like getting near those Chaos Gods, they'd be crushed [as Khaine was].

The Changeling is unlikely, as it's a part of Tzeentch, and in no way has the power to out-smart it's master, it's only a Horror after all.

Heru Talon
10-08-2008, 23:43
Stop mentioning F.E.A.R.

It scares the crap out of me and I miss sleep.
F.E.A.R.

F.E.A.R.

F.E.A.R.

:p



On-Topic.
It could very well be Tzeentch himself, maybe not for testing but for the hell of it.
But as I said that would be lame. As was pointed out earlier it's like the guy who falls over and smashes his Tv saying "I meant to do that". Besides if it were Tzeentch he would of went in alone. The Black Dog (if you slightly ignore the Wizard of Oz reference) is obviously a Guardian entity or a familiar to the girl (and why would Tzeentch show any other creature, no matter the limit of it's intellegence how to by pass his defenses).



The girl could also be a rising warp entity herself, a kind of rival to Tzeentch's power, and she decides to prove her worth, and show Tzeentch isn't as powerful as he himself thinks.
I like to think of it as it's some super powerful psyker (like those super powerful Psyker twins mentioned in the fluff somewhere who killed everyone on a Inquisition Black Ship despite their restraints).

You know like Alma from F.E.A.R. :evilgrin:



I don't think it'd be an Eldar God, because they really don't like getting near those Chaos Gods, they'd be crushed [as Khaine was].
Well the Eldar God everyone is talking about has made it his mission to mess with Slaanesh, and he's the one who made the Outsider (a Ctan) go insane. Generally I wouldn't put anything past him, but still there is the black dog to think about.



The Changeling is unlikely, as it's a part of Tzeentch, and in no way has the power to out-smart it's master, it's only a Horror after all.
The Changeling isn't a Horror. Besides whilst the Changeling can turn himself into anything he likes I highly doubt he can turn himself into two seperate entities (remember people Girl and Black Dog).

Askari
11-08-2008, 00:21
But as I said that would be lame. As was pointed out earlier it's like the guy who falls over and smashes his Tv saying "I meant to do that". Besides if it were Tzeentch he would of went in alone. The Black Dog (if you slightly ignore the Wizard of Oz reference) is obviously a Guardian entity or a familiar to the girl (and why would Tzeentch show any other creature, no matter the limit of it's intellegence how to by pass his defenses).

It would be lame, but it's still quite likely, and I think Tzeentch could easily split himself into 2 seperate entities in his own Labyrinth.




I like to think of it as it's some super powerful psyker (like those super powerful Psyker twins mentioned in the fluff somewhere who killed everyone on a Inquisition Black Ship despite their restraints).

The Apex Twins.
They should expand the background on them, they're cool.


You know like Alma from F.E.A.R. :evilgrin:

She flays people with her mind!




Well the Eldar God everyone is talking about has made it his mission to mess with Slaanesh, and he's the one who made the Outsider (a Ctan) go insane. Generally I wouldn't put anything past him, but still there is the black dog to think about.

Cegorach does steal souls from Slaanesh, which is quite cunning. However the Outsider went insane from eating it's fellow C'Tan, the Laughing God I think fought the Nightbringer, and basically drove it so mad it just gave up.




The Changeling isn't a Horror. Besides whilst the Changeling can turn himself into anything he likes I highly doubt he can turn himself into two seperate entities (remember people Girl and Black Dog).

It essentially is, albeit a very talented Horror, it doesn't even rank up with the Lords of Change.
But really it wouldn't be able to pass the Labyrinth if it was able to turn into 2 beings.
Perhaps it's the Dog that's the entity, not the girl. Kinda like the "wizard" and his "apprentice" in one of the Waylander novels.

Actually though, knowing GW, the girl and the dog are the warp-profiles of Chief Librarian Tigurius, who not only looked into the Hive Mind but can now outwit a Chaos God.

Wouldn't surprise me.

Chilltouch
11-08-2008, 01:21
The little girl is a manifestation of Tzeentch, one way or another. Tzeentch intends to bring ultimate change to the universe, but there's one thing that never changes - his plan. It's always successful. So, he's created something to mess up that which can't be messed up - his plan. Yet somehow, he did it in a fashion that wasn't a part of his plan. He purposefully ruined his plan in order to satisfy his greater plan - which is to introduce change. But in that case, that plan must also suffer from change in order for there to be maximum change.
And this is where Tzeentch starts to hurt your head.

Heru Talon
11-08-2008, 02:01
Cegorach does steal souls from Slaanesh, which is quite cunning. However the Outsider went insane from eating it's fellow C'Tan, the Laughing God I think fought the Nightbringer, and basically drove it so mad it just gave up.
The Deciever tricked the Nightbringer into eating Ctan. While the Laughing God drove the Outsider mad by tricking him into continually eating other Ctan by disguising them as himself (ie so every-time the Outsider thought he'd caught and consumed the Laughing God, he had in fact consumed a Ctan)...

See: http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/2/



It essentially is, albeit a very talented Horror, it doesn't even rank up with the Lords of Change.
But really it wouldn't be able to pass the Labyrinth if it was able to turn into 2 beings.
Not really it's never actually called a Horror, sure it's an upgrade for a Horror unit and it has the stats and Warp Fire ability of a Horror, but it's art and the fact it is "unique amongst the Daemons of Tzeentch" rather than unique amongst the Horrors of Tzeentch. There is also the fact that it has "forgotten what his original shape was" (something that would be hard to do if you were a Horror, seeing as you'd know your shape by seeing other Horrors).



Perhaps it's the Dog that's the entity, not the girl. Kinda like the "wizard" and his "apprentice" in one of the Waylander novels.
Hero In the Shadows. The one were the boy was the powerful one (similar to the Black Company books were Toad Killer Dog was much more intelligent than Tracker).

It wouldn't fit though, children and in particular little girls are creepier than little dogs (ala Alma / The Grudge etc).



In the end it is much better if the girl and her dog aren't Tzeentch because it opens the possibility that there is something far more creepy than the Chaos God who is supposed to know everything (despite the fact that the Fateweaver entry proves that he is indeed fallible).

Trolond
11-08-2008, 05:43
I think this story is more to emphasize the fact that Tzeentch, in all of his complexity and knowledge, is hindered most by the unexpected and strange. Imagine it, a young girl fooling a splinter of Tzeentch, in all of his power and mysticism.

I think the obscurity of 'her' identity is the most important aspect. If it said that it was the emperor or another Chaos God disguised as the girl, the story would be less special "Oh, two gods messing with each other..." no big deal, happens all the time. I think that the story is best if the child actually is a child-psyker who kicked the crap out of Tzeentch's maze.

Askari
11-08-2008, 11:03
The Deciever tricked the Nightbringer into eating Ctan. While the Laughing God drove the Outsider mad by tricking him into continually eating other Ctan by disguising them as himself (ie so every-time the Outsider thought he'd caught and consumed the Laughing God, he had in fact consumed a Ctan)...

See: http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/2/


Ah yes indeed, why do two similar entities decieve two similar entities to do the same thing?



Not really it's never actually called a Horror, sure it's an upgrade for a Horror unit and it has the stats and Warp Fire ability of a Horror, but it's art and the fact it is "unique amongst the Daemons of Tzeentch" rather than unique amongst the Horrors of Tzeentch. There is also the fact that it has "forgotten what his original shape was" (something that would be hard to do if you were a Horror, seeing as you'd know your shape by seeing other Horrors).


True, but his only real ability is his shapeshifting ability, which doesn't really make up for much.


In the end it is much better if the girl and her dog aren't Tzeentch because it opens the possibility that there is something far more creepy than the Chaos God who is supposed to know everything (despite the fact that the Fateweaver entry proves that he is indeed fallible).

Fateweaver is such a terrible and cliche name. I call him Kairos at any and every oppurtunity.


I think the obscurity of 'her' identity is the most important aspect. If it said that it was the emperor or another Chaos God disguised as the girl, the story would be less special "Oh, two gods messing with each other..." no big deal, happens all the time. I think that the story is best if the child actually is a child-psyker who kicked the crap out of Tzeentch's maze.

Ergo, one of the Apex Twins again, though it'd be strange for one of them to work solo.
Thus showing Tzeentch not to underestimate humanity.

Tzeentch isn't all-knowing, but he can see most possible futures, and has the power to influence this. Which is ironic, that the master of unexpected and strange occurances is himself deceived by one.

USER1
11-08-2008, 11:47
The Deciever tricked the Nightbringer into eating Ctan. While the Laughing God drove the Outsider mad by tricking him into continually eating other Ctan by disguising them as himself (ie so every-time the Outsider thought he'd caught and consumed the Laughing God, he had in fact consumed a Ctan)...

.

Isnt it suggested in the necron codex that the deceiver is the laughing god?

Askari
11-08-2008, 12:21
It's highly unlikely, as the Eldar Gods are warp beings and the warp is anathema to the C'Tan.

Also, the Necrons and the Eldar are ancient enemies, so why would the Deceiver save Harlequins' lives from Slaanesh, as Cegorach does.

PARTYCHICORITA
12-08-2008, 04:31
The Changeling is way more than a simple horror and in a couple of ocassions has been able to fool even the Nurgle and Slannesh; he's a creature created only to mess things up and it would be possible for it to turn against his maker.




The Apex Twins.
They should expand the background on them, they're cool.



Who are they? This sounds really interesting. Any more info on them?

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-08-2008, 08:18
Besides, if anyone was going to do it, I might assume it would be one of the Apex twins.

Or both. One could have disguised herself as a little dog (for whatever reason, maybe to trick Tzeentch into thinking it took a single being to penetrate his maze instead of two).

ADF
13-08-2008, 13:27
Who are they? This sounds really interesting. Any more info on them?

They were two human alpha++ psyker twins with the appearance of children, but they were much older (possibly millenia). They were captured by a black ship, but managed to instill a revolt and kill everybody on board. Later on, they were captured again and displayed on a public victory parade. During the parade, they broke free and massacred thousands of bystanders with their powers. From then on, their trail went cold, but they are probably still at large and under the top ten of the Ordo Hereticus most wanted list.

vforvenator
29-12-2008, 00:26
According to my friend it's from a book called "The Lost and the dammed" which he says it's quiet old.I don't remember this, its been years since I read Lost and Damned, but I am reminded of that character from the Konrad trilogy, Warblade IIRC: a nameless girl of about five, who lives on an enchanted island in the center of a lake with a shore composed of disintegrated bone, who has a pet panther (?) She is an awesomely powerful entity of unknown age in the habit of answering impossible questions for the right people, and claimed to have been a daemon "for a while."
This was written when the background of WH and WH40K had concrete canonical links, like the Realms of Chaos volumes. So maybe one of these characters is based on the other, and the answer lies in the RT era Warhammer fluff, not in Warhammer 40,000?

Malice313
29-12-2008, 11:59
I don't recognize the story from the RT era Realm of Chaos books. It's new.

There is no mention of it in either RoC book what so ever. I think his friend is mistaken.

Suicide Messiah
29-12-2008, 20:02
Its an Oz reference. A little girl and her dog. She got sucked up by the twister and instead of landign in Oz ended up in the warp. Its just somthing to make you smile.

Inquisitor Engel
30-12-2008, 02:53
I thought this was rather cute. The real message is that real honesty and for lack of a better word, naiveté will get you through Tzeentch's things, as his powers stem from deceit and intrigue.

Tzeentch has no way to defend against someone with someone happy with themselves.

KurtBielarus
02-01-2009, 09:31
I thought this was rather cute. The real message is that real honesty and for lack of a better word, naiveté will get you through Tzeentch's things, as his powers stem from deceit and intrigue.


+1 !
GW likes (and I honour them for this) humble and honest characters. I 've noticed that till that day the most humble SM Chapter - Ultramarines (read 'Battle for the Abyss' and compare them to any other Chapter or Legion) is most powerful and numerous (counting the successors).

---------------------------

BTW, it could be our little Ephrael Stern in her dreams (which were reality in warp).

She is a living weapon against Chaos, she is collaborating with a Harlequin.

Who knows which dreams she had when she was a child? What realities unfolded before her? What worlds of Demons and Saints did she visited in her sleep?

Of course she never remembered this dreams, but... ;) :angel:

Gazak Blacktoof
02-01-2009, 10:21
I really like th honesty and innocence angle posted by Engel. Grim-dark only works well with counterpoint.

I also liked the inspiration for oz angle that was posted by Mad Jack. Happily the two of them don't contradict each other.



BTW, it could be our little Ephrael Stern in her dreams (which were reality in warp).

She is a living weapon against Chaos, she is collaborating with a Harlequin.

Isn't she a battle sister? And isn't consorting with Xenos heresy?

KurtBielarus
02-01-2009, 10:31
Isn't she a battle sister?
She is a battle sister.


And isn't consorting with Xenos heresy?
As we know, there were a lot of campaigns in which Eldar and Imperial forces fought together against common enemies.

reds8n
02-01-2009, 11:43
That was the Italian's idea, though I agreed to it so I guess I'm partly responsible (but he was Lead Designer on the project so it's all his fault anyway). He was so happy about the concept I couldn't say no, it would have been like slapping a puppy. I am enjoying all of the discussions of what 'in-world' entity this character could be.

Cheers,

GAV


taken from here (http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8902&KW=tzeentch+black+dog+little+girl&PN=4)

stormblade
02-01-2009, 11:45
C'mon Gav! I listed trickster gods from Japan, Africa, Europe, the Caribbean and North America, but I also could've thrown in Baba Yaga from Russia, The Monkey King (Sun Wukong) from China, Maui from Hawaii, or even Odysseus (human, but still a trickster).


Baba Yaga(or baba roga) is neither a god nor a trickster she is a witch.

Gazak Blacktoof
02-01-2009, 13:19
As we know, there were a lot of campaigns in which Eldar and Imperial forces fought together against common enemies.

Yes, but the battle sisters aren't the most pragmatic of gals. Seems at odds with the fire and brimstone approach they normally take.

biggreengribbly
02-01-2009, 13:22
I haven't read the comics, but I get the Impression that Miss Stern is not a ... typical Sororitas.

KurtBielarus
02-01-2009, 14:03
Yes, but the battle sisters aren't the most pragmatic of gals. Seems at odds with the fire and brimstone approach they normally take.

Actually there is not so many battle sisters in GW fluff. But sister Stern is the most famous of them :)

I can only add that they may seem not so pragmatic (though the sheer diversity of their functions from medicine to torture, from combat to covert operations on barbaric worlds and even diplomacy requires at least not only use flamers and eviscerators), but they are close partners to the most pragmatic and wide-minded organisation of Imperium (=I=).

biggreengribbly
02-01-2009, 16:44
Actually there is not so many battle sisters in GW fluff. But sister Stern is the most famous of them :)

I can only add that they may seem not so pragmatic (though the sheer diversity of their functions from medicine to torture, from combat to covert operations on barbaric worlds and even diplomacy requires at least not only use flamers and eviscerators), but they are close partners to the most pragmatic and wide-minded organisation of Imperium (=I=).

There's a difference between being a member of the Adepta Sororitas and being a battle sister. The diplomats, missionaries, physicians, historians and tomb raiders are all from entirely seperate arms of the Sisterhood to the power armoured, bolter wielding warrior-nuns who are most definitely not known for their open mindedness. And Ephrael Stern was most definitely from the latter branch.

Inquisitor Engel
02-01-2009, 21:48
I haven't read the comics, but I get the Impression that Miss Stern is not a ... typical Sororitas.

Oh yes, Ephrael Stern is in no way a typical Sorita. However, she's dead. (Book 1 has her dying on the floor...)

However the issue with this theory is that Ephrael Stern has white hair. ;)

ArtificerArmour
02-01-2009, 23:14
And thus was made the wierdest tzeentchian herald...

chromedog
03-01-2009, 06:19
The girl is Jimmy Page, and GW are having a little riff on the zeitgeist (Black dog, riff, geddit? I don't know why I bother sometimes.).

Or maybe if the little girl is Tzeentch, then he's just a little bit depressed (black dog is also used as a symbol for chronic depression.) by his plan to always have a plan not always working, which is part of his plan, but planning is so anti-chaotic, so that's also part of his plan (chaos makes my head hurt).

Or as someone else already said.

"Sometimes a little girl is just a little girl."

KurtBielarus
03-01-2009, 07:48
Oh yes, Ephrael Stern is in no way a typical Sorita. However, she's dead. (Book 1 has her dying on the floor...)
To be exact, she IS THINKING that she is dying :)


However the issue with this theory is that Ephrael Stern has white hair. ;)

So what?

KurtBielarus
03-01-2009, 07:52
There's a difference between being a member of the Adepta Sororitas and being a battle sister. The diplomats, missionaries, physicians, historians and tomb raiders are all from entirely seperate arms of the Sisterhood to the power armoured, bolter wielding warrior-nuns who are most definitely not known for their open mindedness. And Ephrael Stern was most definitely from the latter branch.
As it was noted before, she is not typical battle sister.

And I don't think that there are no co-working and co-influencing of philosophies between the Orders. Not mentinong the infuence of =I=.

laudarkul
03-01-2009, 08:49
Or as someone else already said.
"Sometimes a little girl is just a little girl."

Just a penny for her thoughts :D.