PDA

View Full Version : Necron fluff problems



Outlaw289
05-08-2008, 03:30
Just some parts I hate the most about current Necron fluff. They were "tortured and in constant pain" by the natural radiation of their sun? WTF, how does that sort of evolutionary adaptation occur? secondly, they already had interstellar space travel by the time they found out about the C'tans existence so how in the **** was there still a problem? did EVERY star system they colonise have the same problem?

And jealously over another race they encounter having a longer lifespan. Jealous enough to declare a war against them. WHAT? I'm not going to rage myself into a violent frenzy because other species live longer than I do. The Necrontyr war against the old ones has one of the most retarded premises I have ever encountered.

Has there ever been good explanations for these problems?

Knight_Yellow
05-08-2008, 03:38
Apparently despite being able to travel to other stars and presumabely stay out of the sun...

They just couldnt get enough of those Necron XTR 10000 Sunbeds.

Khaine's Messenger
05-08-2008, 05:15
WTF, how does that sort of evolutionary adaptation occur?

If one were to guess (and torture the background in order to make it consistant), they probably "evolved" under the light of their sun naturally...but it was only after their near ancestors became the Necrontyr that the Nightbringer came to feed upon their star, causing it to prematurely age or undergo some reaction that made it a pain to live beneath. He had been inhabiting their home system's star when they found him, after all. But that may be torturing the sequence of events. After all, before their descent into the necrodermi, it would seem that the C'tan operated on super-glacially-slow time tables. This sort of info twists the Necrontyr/C'tan relationship, though, because it makes it sound like the C'tan are responsible for the twisted and horrible state of the Necrontyr...and as smart as the Necrontyr should have been, one would hope that they would have realized this.

Which was probably why those that refused to become Necrons were slaughtered. It's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy, unfortunately.


secondly, they already had interstellar space travel by the time they found out about the C'tans existence so how in the **** was there still a problem? did EVERY star system they colonise have the same problem?

It is entirely possible that any and all Necrontyr born in their home system were inflicted with the horrible condition, and that whatever devastation it wrought on their reproductive systems, it was beyond their ability to breed out or cure just by moving south for the winter. The state of Necrontyr medical science is, unfortunately, unknown.


And jealously over another race they encounter having a longer lifespan. Jealous enough to declare a war against them. WHAT? I'm not going to rage myself into a violent frenzy because other species live longer than I do.

I believe it had more to do with how the Old Ones pretty much stated that they weren't going to help with whatever problem the Necrontyr had. The Necrontyr believed that the Old Ones had the secret to curing them (they'd outright created several other races!), and so they decided to take those "secrets" by force. It was essentially like an army of people with illnesses they believed to be treatable storming the hospital because it had refused treatment.

Interestingly (or perhaps not), this line of reasoning led to fan speculation that the root strain of the Tau was derived from Necrontyr stock. A sort of gift from the ailing progenitors of the galaxy's many races to a wayward acquiantance. I don't think that interpretation ever caught on, though. Probably a bit too sappy. Definitely non-canon, though.


Has there ever been good explanations for these problems?

Canonically? Bits and pieces. A lot of the above is fan speculation.

slaanghoul
05-08-2008, 05:24
Just some parts I hate the most about current Necron fluff. They were "tortured and in constant pain" by the natural radiation of their sun? WTF, how does that sort of evolutionary adaptation occur? secondly, they already had interstellar space travel by the time they found out about the C'tans existence so how in the **** was there still a problem? did EVERY star system they colonise have the same problem?

And jealously over another race they encounter having a longer lifespan. Jealous enough to declare a war against them. WHAT? I'm not going to rage myself into a violent frenzy because other species live longer than I do. The Necrontyr war against the old ones has one of the most retarded premises I have ever encountered.

Has there ever been good explanations for these problems?

Totally agree with you. It is just another bad fluff with many loop holes in it. Fanboy can justify it anyway they want, but come on. . ..

Ubermensch Commander
05-08-2008, 06:16
@Khaine's Messenger
Hey i know what the status of Necron Medical science was...NECRODERMIS TECH. Replacing living beings biological bodies with metal ones. Oh, also being able to go into hibernation with their "slow burning torch ships."
One of the GREATEST flaws of the Necron fluff, as was touched on by Khaines messenger with "..and as smart as the Necrontyr should have been, one would hope that they would have realized this" is that the Necron being enslaved to the C'tan make no sense. Supposedly the C'tan "offerend" the Necrons immortality for servitude...BUT it was the NECRONTYR than called DOWN THE CTAN AND PLACED THEM INTO THEIR NECRODERMIS SHELLS!! Now if they can put a completely alien entity comprised of energy and comsic gases that stretches for light years into a realtively man sized Necrodermis....you better ******* BELIEVE they could have done the same for their people.

But WAIT! For Necrons to "work", and if we look at the fluff like we are now we see they really dont, we need them to "enslaved to the will of the C'tan" ooooooooooo scary. *spits to the side in disgust* It's like a bad B Movie plot.

Oh and I agree with Outlaw and Slaanghoul....War against the Old Ones because they live longer than us is a RETARDED premise.
Wouldn't a more plausible solution for a race so DESPERATE to live longer be to cozy up to the Old Ones and seek their aid in fixing your Race's genetic defect? For pity's sake the Old Ones manipulated and created several races including the Slann. They were obvioulsy master life-engineers...why wouldnt the desperate and highly tech advanced Necrontyr have soought to learn from them...or just straight out asked for help?

oh wait, no...GW wanted to create Undead in space with Necrons being Tomb Kings and Ctan being Star Vampire Counts.

Quakerman77
05-08-2008, 06:44
maybe the necrontyr never got around to inventing spf 50 sunscreen and fell prey to skin cancer :D

MagrukWikkid
05-08-2008, 10:36
Y'see, while the Necron fluff isn't as good as the rest of GW's stuff, I do think people hate on them a bit hard. The War in Heaven and the expansion of the mythology surrounding the Eldar Gods made the whole thing worthwhile in my opinion. It also gave us some deep history that didn't involve mankind, the Emperor and the Adeptus Astartes. I can get behind that as well.

Lord Damocles
05-08-2008, 10:51
They were "tortured and in constant pain" by the natural radiation of their sun? WTF, how does that sort of evolutionary adaptation occur?

...born under a fearsome star, which uncaringly drove their evolution forth with atomic winds and plasma stroms.
So they evolved on a planet blasted by solar radiation. I'd imagine that it would be a bit like an entire race having terminal skin cancer when they were born.
The very fact that they survived at all shows quite a degree of adaption to their environment.



secondly, they already had interstellar space travel by the time they found out about the C'tans existence so how in the **** was there still a problem? did EVERY star system they colonise have the same problem?

...learned they could not conquer the curse that had been encoded in their bodies...
Obviously the solar radiation had caused some kind of mutation in their DNA which they couldn't rectify. Moving planet ain't going to change your DNA.



And jealously over another race they encounter having a longer lifespan. Jealous enough to declare a war against them. WHAT? I'm not going to rage myself into a violent frenzy because other species live longer than I do. The Necrontyr war against the old ones has one of the most retarded premises I have ever encountered.
Human history is littered with wars fought due to jealousy. Why should the Necrontyr not be jealous? Why should they not want to destroy those who through mere fate have been gifted near eternal life and dominion over vast tracts of space?

Jealousy begets hatred...




Luckily I never tire of countering your randon anti-Necron rants, Ubermensch Commander, so without further ado, here we go again...


Hey i know what the status of Necron Medical science was...NECRODERMIS TECH. Replacing living beings biological bodies with metal ones.
Got a page reference for that? I can't see anything that says that the Necrontyr were able to replace biological bodies with Necrodermis. We know they used Necrodermis to make the hulls of their ships (Codex, pg.25), but nowhere does it say that they could replace bodies.



One of the GREATEST flaws of the Necron fluff, as was touched on by Khaines messenger with "..and as smart as the Necrontyr should have been, one would hope that they would have realized this" is that the Necron being enslaved to the C'tan make no sense. Supposedly the C'tan "offerend" the Necrons immortality for servitude...BUT it was the NECRONTYR than called DOWN THE CTAN AND PLACED THEM INTO THEIR NECRODERMIS SHELLS!!
Codex: Necrons makes it quite clear that the Necrontyr viewed their star as a sort of Death God (and who can blame them?) It also clearly syates that they wanted to use the C'tan as weapons originally:

Here was the weapon the Necrontyr had sought, the children of the stars themselves - progeny of their death-god to cast down the Old Ones

Now if they can put a completely alien entity comprised of energy and comsic gases that stretches for light years into a realtively man sized Necrodermis....you better ******* BELIEVE they could have done the same for their people.
1) How do you know that the Necrontyr 'put' the C'tan into the necrodeernis shells? The Codex just says that they made the bodies and called to the C'tan. Nowhere does it suggest that the C'tan didn't willingly enter their physical bodies.
2) The C'tan didn't 'stretch for light years'. They 'covered an area larger than a planet' (Codex, pg.25), and given that stars arn't light years in diameter, your wild assumption makes no sense.

3) Why should we believe that the necrontyr could transfer their own conciousnesses into Necrodermis shells? You keep repeating this over and over - but you have no evidence to support this assumption. Show me where it says that the Necrontyr could transfer their essences BEFORE the C'tan offered them the ability. Go on.
The very fact that they obviously hadn't done anything of the sort before the C'tan offered them the chance of immortality kind of disproves yuor point for you.

That the C'tan offered the Necrontyr immortality in exchange for their bodies makes perfect sense if you actually READ WHATS IN THE CODEX (page 24-25) and stop trying to claim that the Necrontyr could have done it on their own.:rolleyes:



But WAIT! For Necrons to "work", and if we look at the fluff like we are now we see they really dont, we need them to "enslaved to the will of the C'tan" ooooooooooo scary. *spits to the side in disgust* It's like a bad B Movie plot.
The wha...?
Want to rephase that into something that makes sense?



Wouldn't a more plausible solution for a race so DESPERATE to live longer be to cozy up to the Old Ones and seek their aid in fixing your Race's genetic defect? For pity's sake the Old Ones manipulated and created several races including the Slann. They were obvioulsy master life-engineers...why wouldnt the desperate and highly tech advanced Necrontyr have soought to learn from them...or just straight out asked for help?
Maybe they did. Maybe the Old Ones didn't want to help, or just couldn't see the point. Perhaps the Old Ones didn't feel the need to lower themselves by helping such an inferior race.
If you were told to go away and die, you'd be rather bitter too.

-Long Sigh-
:chrome:

GodofWarTx
05-08-2008, 10:56
The war with the old ones to me seems pretty justified in the eyes of the necrontyr. Take a dying, tortured race, using its technology to send it out to colonize space with extreme effort on its torch-ships, and they run into the old ones, who do everything better, faster, prettier, and are psychic masters to boot. It would be infuriating to see someone like them have it all.

Its like the nerdy girl getting tired of the popular blonde cheerleader who has all the boys, and cuts the girls hair off as revenge.

Ubermensch Commander
05-08-2008, 16:00
@ Lord Damocles
You do not counter anything, sir. You simply disagree. There are alot of questions that are not answered by the fluff and as the OP and others are pointing out....its a lot of fan speculation. The Necron fluff is not clear thus leaving plot holes in the Necron fluff. My questions stand.

As for the Necrodermis and transfer of consciousness: Its poorly written. It makes no sense, even within the 40K fictional universe.
"1) How do you know that the Necrontyr 'put' the C'tan into the necrodeernis shells? The Codex just says that they made the bodies and called to the C'tan. Nowhere does it suggest that the C'tan didn't willingly enter their physical bodies.

Let me rephrase that to make my rationale clearer. The Necrons were able to develop the tech to talk to these life forms, not the other way round. The Necrons were able to make a shell that could HOUSE these life forms, not the other way round. Now this is a completely alien life form very different from their own physiology. The Necrons in effect built that body. The willingness of the C'tan, which i was not addressing, is irrelevant. We see that the C'tan cannot willingly shape shift or jump their own consciouness to or from any object. Only into the specially designed(By Necrontyr, visit your local tomb and pick one up today!) necrodermis shells.

2) The C'tan didn't 'stretch for light years'. They 'covered an area larger than a planet' (Codex, pg.25), and given that stars arn't light years in diameter, your wild assumption makes no sense.

Ok, you win. They were LARGER THAN A PLANET reduced to roughly man sized shape. Geez man, really? My point stands that it was damn impressive of "huge alien energy(gas?) form into smaller body and that if THAT is possible, couldn't a populace that devoted their sciene to solving the problems rending their bodies be able to do it for themselves, if they could do it for an alien life form which they would be less familiar with?

3) Why should we believe that the necrontyr could transfer their own conciousnesses into Necrodermis shells? You keep repeating this over and over - but you have no evidence to support this assumption. Show me where it says that the Necrontyr could transfer their essences BEFORE the C'tan offered them the ability. Go on.
The very fact that they obviously hadn't done anything of the sort before the C'tan offered them the chance of immortality kind of disproves yuor point for you.

Ah now here is the crux of the poorly written fluff of the Necrons. The premise of the C'tan enslaving the Necrontyr is FLAWED. How could the C'tan "offer" any sort of immortality? The C'tan arent psychic, so they can't transfer consciousness or souls. The C'tan aren't in possession of the Necrodermis tech that crafted the Necron shell bodies and it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER that a giant space parasite would grasp, understand, or care about such advanced technical capabilities. Of course this is ignoring that the giant space parasite (the size of a planet(ish) not light years) would even HAVE remotely mortal mindframes or interests.
So no, I can't show you the quote that says the Necronty could transfer their consciousness specifically. I can only point to the precedent of allowing for the transfer of an COMPLETELY ALIEN INTELLECT that is the C'tan into a necrodermis shell and the lack of a quote saying HOW C'tan did it or that the C'tan could do this transferrence, since they can't even transfer themselves from freely from point to point, and pointing out the flaws in the rationale behind this premise/fluff(see above).
Simply because the codex says "and they offered them immortality" doesnt mean the premise isnt horribly....horribly...flawed.

"Maybe they did. Maybe the Old Ones didn't want to help, or just couldn't see the point. Perhaps the Old Ones didn't feel the need to lower themselves by helping such an inferior race.
If you were told to go away and die, you'd be rather bitter too."


Your last point. MAYBE THEY DID. So the fluff doesn't say, which is another problem with the Necron fluff....it does not say. And the whole Old Ones not "lowering themselves" well they let the Necrons live rather than wiping them out...I just don't see that race pulling a "go away and die". The fluff just has the Necrontyr acting retarded, as pointed out by the OP. Jealousy is one thing.....but balanced against the Necrontyr desperation to escape their short lives it makes a WAR against those who might HELP them.....highly implausible given alternatives. NOW...had the fluff stated "Yes and the Necronty approached the Old Ones as supplicants but the uncaring elder race scorned the Necrontyr's diplomacy" I would buy it.

So you can quote all you want, and i will keep pointing out the logical fallacies in it. I know you accept the fluff. It works for you. It suspends your disbelief. I am in disbelief that it was allowed to be written.
Now my main problem is with the C'tan. Take them out of the Necron fluff...ya get something a little more plausible.

Curufew
05-08-2008, 16:10
I have another question regarding the Necrons.

If the Imperium committed a exterminatus on a Necron Tomb World, what happen to all the Necrons in the tomb?Do the all die/destroyed or get teleported to another tomb world

Privaron
05-08-2008, 16:25
Oh no, he countered you, you're just being a sore loser.

Hun
05-08-2008, 16:33
The necrontyr would have evolved to have really short lifespans, after all there is no need to have a long natural life if you are certain to die young from cancer, so even if they left their homeworld their DNA would continue to limit their lifespans.

Exterminatus is probably not a good way to destroy a necron tomb world. The tomb itself is probably buried too deep and too dense for it to be completeley destroyed by cyclonic torpedoes and they would laugh in the face of virus bombs or atmospheric incinerators.

Ubermensch Commander
05-08-2008, 16:47
Oh no, he countered you, you're just being a sore loser.

And yet my questions remain generally unaswered, my points valid.

Besides, rule#1 about online discussions-No one wins.

icegreentea
05-08-2008, 16:48
You could go all Caliban on a tomb world. Unlikely, but possible. Fluff said the only way to stop Necrons from phasing out and regenerating was to blow up their Tomb complex. Seems possible (I keep thinking that this actually has been done).

The new Necron fluff makes it seem completely possible.

Privaron
05-08-2008, 17:26
Ya, IIRC they took out a tomb world before, but they're virtually impossible to find, and even then more difficult to destroy.

Ubermensch what are your questions? Lord Damocles already disproved all yours points using the official fluff, and page references.

Lord Damocles
05-08-2008, 18:23
The premise of the C'tan enslaving the Necrontyr is FLAWED. How could the C'tan "offer" any sort of immortality? The C'tan arent psychic, so they can't transfer consciousness or souls.
Why should the C'tan have to be psychic to be able to transfer consciousness from flesh to machine? whats that got to do with anything?

We know that the C'tan could 'see' particles and electromagnetism:

The close weaves of dancing particles enthralled them and the deliciously focused trickles of electromagnetism leaked by the moral bodies...
Is it such a giant leap to assume that they may have had a means of moving this electromagnetism from place to place (ie flesh to machine)?


The C'tan aren't in possession of the Necrodermis tech that crafted the Necron shell bodies and it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER that a giant space parasite would grasp, understand, or care about such advanced technical capabilities.
I'm sure they could have got the necrodermis tech from the Necrontyr. :eyebrows:

Also, why wouldn't they understand or care about advanced tech? You can't just claim that it makes no sense (in a setting with Orks ect. :rolleyes:) based on the fact that you can't picture it.


So no, I can't show you the quote that says the Necronty could transfer their consciousness specifically. I can only point to the precedent of allowing for the transfer of an COMPLETELY ALIEN INTELLECT that is the C'tan into a necrodermis shell and the lack of a quote saying HOW C'tan did it or that the C'tan could do this transferrence, since they can't even transfer themselves from freely from point to point, and pointing out the flaws in the rationale behind this premise/fluff(see above).
So we agree that you can't show that the Necrontyr could have transfered themselves into Necrodermis shells.

You can't show that they could.
I can show that the evidence we have shows that they clearly couldn't. (otherwise they would have done it pre C'tan)
Therefore your arguement falls apart.

HereticLosMorte
05-08-2008, 18:27
@ Lord Damocles


As for the Necrodermis and transfer of consciousness: Its poorly written. It makes no sense, even within the 40K fictional universe.
"1) How do you know that the Necrontyr 'put' the C'tan into the necrodeernis shells? The Codex just says that they made the bodies and called to the C'tan. Nowhere does it suggest that the C'tan didn't willingly enter their physical bodies.

Let me rephrase that to make my rationale clearer. The Necrons were able to develop the tech to talk to these life forms, not the other way round. The Necrons were able to make a shell that could HOUSE these life forms, not the other way round. Now this is a completely alien life form very different from their own physiology. The Necrons in effect built that body. The willingness of the C'tan, which i was not addressing, is irrelevant. We see that the C'tan cannot willingly shape shift or jump their own consciouness to or from any object. Only into the specially designed(By Necrontyr, visit your local tomb and pick one up today!) necrodermis shells.



you're also forgetting ubermensch, that c'tan could bend the physical realm to their will, so to speak. therefore, is it not plausible that the c'tan altered the necrontyr form into that of the common robotic necron? afterall, it is a physical form.

FlashGordon
05-08-2008, 18:48
@Khaine's Messenger
Hey i know what the status of Necron Medical science was...NECRODERMIS TECH. Replacing living beings biological bodies with metal ones. Oh, also being able to go into hibernation with their "slow burning torch ships."
One of the GREATEST flaws of the Necron fluff, as was touched on by Khaines messenger with "..and as smart as the Necrontyr should have been, one would hope that they would have realized this" is that the Necron being enslaved to the C'tan make no sense. Supposedly the C'tan "offerend" the Necrons immortality for servitude...BUT it was the NECRONTYR than called DOWN THE CTAN AND PLACED THEM INTO THEIR NECRODERMIS SHELLS!! Now if they can put a completely alien entity comprised of energy and comsic gases that stretches for light years into a realtively man sized Necrodermis....you better ******* BELIEVE they could have done the same for their people.

But WAIT! For Necrons to "work", and if we look at the fluff like we are now we see they really dont, we need them to "enslaved to the will of the C'tan" ooooooooooo scary. *spits to the side in disgust* It's like a bad B Movie plot.

Oh and I agree with Outlaw and Slaanghoul....War against the Old Ones because they live longer than us is a RETARDED premise.
Wouldn't a more plausible solution for a race so DESPERATE to live longer be to cozy up to the Old Ones and seek their aid in fixing your Race's genetic defect? For pity's sake the Old Ones manipulated and created several races including the Slann. They were obvioulsy master life-engineers...why wouldnt the desperate and highly tech advanced Necrontyr have soought to learn from them...or just straight out asked for help?

oh wait, no...GW wanted to create Undead in space with Necrons being Tomb Kings and Ctan being Star Vampire Counts.

They are alien, are you?

Lotan
05-08-2008, 18:52
The necrontyr would have evolved to have really short lifespans, after all there is no need to have a long natural life if you are certain to die young from cancer, so even if they left their homeworld their DNA would continue to limit their lifespans.


Not really. We know they could still breed, so their DNA wasn't bombarded to the point that they could no longer reproduce. So yes their lifespans were short because the died young from cancer, this has nothing to do with the genetics of longevity. If you have two parents that live to 150 and you get cancer at 25, doesn't mean your kids suddenly lose the genes that control lifespan, so as long as they don't get cancer and die young they could live to 150 aswell. Lifespan will not be affected by cancer killing a race young. eg:

150-cancer(20)-cancer(20)-cancer(30)-no cancer(150) due to the longevity genes still being present.

What really is the question is did they have long or short lifespans before they were affected by their stars radiation? Then you could determine whether they would be short or long lived on another planet.

This is why without medical intervention the human lifespan will not increase dramatically. To increase a lifespan of a species you need old men to produce offspring, as their genes have provided good health for a long time, I mean if a man can have kids at 100 then his genes must be doing something correctly. Then this would need to be repeated over and over but as young women generally shy away from sleeping with 100 year olds without gold digging being involved I very much doubt this would occur naturally. The only other way is controlled breeding and I believe Uncle Adolf tried to corner that market!

heretics bane
05-08-2008, 18:55
@ Lord Damocles
You do not counter anything, sir. You simply disagree. There are alot of questions that are not answered by the fluff and as the OP and others are pointing out....its a lot of fan speculation. The Necron fluff is not clear thus leaving plot holes in the Necron fluff. My questions stand.

As for the Necrodermis and transfer of consciousness: Its poorly written. It makes no sense, even within the 40K fictional universe.
"1) How do you know that the Necrontyr 'put' the C'tan into the necrodeernis shells? The Codex just says that they made the bodies and called to the C'tan. Nowhere does it suggest that the C'tan didn't willingly enter their physical bodies.

Let me rephrase that to make my rationale clearer. The Necrons were able to develop the tech to talk to these life forms, not the other way round. The Necrons were able to make a shell that could HOUSE these life forms, not the other way round. Now this is a completely alien life form very different from their own physiology. The Necrons in effect built that body. The willingness of the C'tan, which i was not addressing, is irrelevant. We see that the C'tan cannot willingly shape shift or jump their own consciouness to or from any object. Only into the specially designed(By Necrontyr, visit your local tomb and pick one up today!) necrodermis shells.

2) The C'tan didn't 'stretch for light years'. They 'covered an area larger than a planet' (Codex, pg.25), and given that stars arn't light years in diameter, your wild assumption makes no sense.

Ok, you win. They were LARGER THAN A PLANET reduced to roughly man sized shape. Geez man, really? My point stands that it was damn impressive of "huge alien energy(gas?) form into smaller body and that if THAT is possible, couldn't a populace that devoted their sciene to solving the problems rending their bodies be able to do it for themselves, if they could do it for an alien life form which they would be less familiar with?

3) Why should we believe that the necrontyr could transfer their own conciousnesses into Necrodermis shells? You keep repeating this over and over - but you have no evidence to support this assumption. Show me where it says that the Necrontyr could transfer their essences BEFORE the C'tan offered them the ability. Go on.
The very fact that they obviously hadn't done anything of the sort before the C'tan offered them the chance of immortality kind of disproves yuor point for you.

Ah now here is the crux of the poorly written fluff of the Necrons. The premise of the C'tan enslaving the Necrontyr is FLAWED. How could the C'tan "offer" any sort of immortality? The C'tan arent psychic, so they can't transfer consciousness or souls. The C'tan aren't in possession of the Necrodermis tech that crafted the Necron shell bodies and it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER that a giant space parasite would grasp, understand, or care about such advanced technical capabilities. Of course this is ignoring that the giant space parasite (the size of a planet(ish) not light years) would even HAVE remotely mortal mindframes or interests.
So no, I can't show you the quote that says the Necronty could transfer their consciousness specifically. I can only point to the precedent of allowing for the transfer of an COMPLETELY ALIEN INTELLECT that is the C'tan into a necrodermis shell and the lack of a quote saying HOW C'tan did it or that the C'tan could do this transferrence, since they can't even transfer themselves from freely from point to point, and pointing out the flaws in the rationale behind this premise/fluff(see above).
Simply because the codex says "and they offered them immortality" doesnt mean the premise isnt horribly....horribly...flawed.

"Maybe they did. Maybe the Old Ones didn't want to help, or just couldn't see the point. Perhaps the Old Ones didn't feel the need to lower themselves by helping such an inferior race.
If you were told to go away and die, you'd be rather bitter too."


Your last point. MAYBE THEY DID. So the fluff doesn't say, which is another problem with the Necron fluff....it does not say. And the whole Old Ones not "lowering themselves" well they let the Necrons live rather than wiping them out...I just don't see that race pulling a "go away and die". The fluff just has the Necrontyr acting retarded, as pointed out by the OP. Jealousy is one thing.....but balanced against the Necrontyr desperation to escape their short lives it makes a WAR against those who might HELP them.....highly implausible given alternatives. NOW...had the fluff stated "Yes and the Necronty approached the Old Ones as supplicants but the uncaring elder race scorned the Necrontyr's diplomacy" I would buy it.

So you can quote all you want, and i will keep pointing out the logical fallacies in it. I know you accept the fluff. It works for you. It suspends your disbelief. I am in disbelief that it was allowed to be written.
Now my main problem is with the C'tan. Take them out of the Necron fluff...ya get something a little more plausible.

Well it seems you have taken what you think should have happened and tried to fit it into the fluff which basicly contridics everything youve said.
No page references or sources just pure speculation.

As for necron fluff in gerneral i feel that the GW writers where determined to crow bar it in some where.

Ubermensch Commander
05-08-2008, 18:59
[QUOTE=Ubermensch Commander;2839467]The premise of the C'tan enslaving the Necrontyr is FLAWED. How could the C'tan "offer" any sort of immortality? The C'tan arent psychic, so they can't transfer consciousness or souls./QUOTE]
Why should the C'tan have to be psychic to be able to transfer consciousness from flesh to machine? whats that got to do with anything?

We know that the C'tan could 'see' particles and electromagnetism:

Is it such a giant leap to assume that they may have had a means of moving this electromagnetism from place to place (ie flesh to machine)?

Actually, yes. Being able to see something is a far cry from moving it from flesh to machine, when they could not do this thing for themselve if unaided by Necron tech(as pointed out with their ability to hop from Necrodermis only and not jump into any old object they felt like) So here we see again the Necrontyr mastery of this tech....i do not see plausibility of the C'tan being able to shunt about consciousnesses of living beings.


I'm sure they could have got the necrodermis tech from the Necrontyr. :eyebrows:

Yes and that's the problem. The Necronyr HAVE the necrodermis. Why do they need someone else to OFFER them it? Especially if there is no quote saying HOW the Ctan were able to do such a thing. They were not psychic so how can they transfer minds/thoughts/etc?

Also, why wouldn't they understand or care about advanced tech? You can't just claim that it makes no sense (in a setting with Orks ect. :rolleyes:) based on the fact that you can't picture it.


So we agree that you can't show that the Necrontyr could have transfered themselves into Necrodermis shells.

You can't show that they could.
I can show that the evidence we have shows that they clearly couldn't. (otherwise they would have done it pre C'tan)
Therefore you're arguement falls apart.



No my argument does not as you still havent shown a quote that says that they (the Ctan) could or HOW they could shift Necron minds from flesh to machine, and yet the Necrontyr clearly understoond how to transfer an ALIEN mind to a machine, as they built a Necrodermis shell to capable of accomdating the C'tan. A precedent within the fluff that predates the C'tan arrival. So if the Necrontyr can build something that allows for a transfer of C'tan consciouness, why not their own physiology/biology, which they understand more clearly? That doesnt make much sense. I am showing how it does not make sense within their own fluff as written.
Again i am pointing out these little plot holes in the fluff that could use some addressing.


you're also forgetting ubermensch, that c'tan could bend the physical realm to their will, so to speak. therefore, is it not plausible that the c'tan altered the necrontyr form into that of the common robotic necron? afterall, it is a physical form.

Again, i disagree with the C'tan being able to alter the physical world. They have what are essentially pyschic power but they are not psychic. How/Why would an energy being be able to fundamentally alter the world around? Hurl bolts of energy-yes. no lo contendre. But warp reality? That really is the purview of warpcraft and the like.
Simply being a very large being of energy that feeds on stars does not equate to able to alter physical reality to me. Where does this jump come from?


so we dont have a quote of how the Ctan are involved in shifting consciouness yet we have a precedent of the Necrontyr having the necrodermis tech and understanding enough of an ALIEN consciouness to adapt a Necrodermis to fit in it, so what could the C'tan possibly offer them?

And if the Necrontry jealous enough of the Old Ones to attack them(dumb), why would they worship the very beings that cursed them with the fraility/short lives the Necrontyr sought to escape?

Ok lets assume, despite the flaws in the premise, that the C'tan were responsible for allowing the Necrontyr to jump into Necron bodies. But his offer was resisted. How can a handful of C'tan, with just a relatively few Necron servants, have taken an entire species/culture that had a better understanding of the very technology they were being shunted into? Wouldnt they have....i dont know..fought back? Escaped on ships? I guess it's not just the fact that the Necrontyr would have had the tech advantage, its the number disparity. We have...what...a dozen, two dozen C'tan? Even if they numbered 100 C'tan, which i do not believe there were that many, how do you grab an ENTIRE SPECIES ans shove them into metal bodies. So from there we have Necrodermis bodies, the Necrons, what AUTOMATICALLY retain the consciouness of their inhabitant....well the dregs of it anyway. So no we see the Necron tech capable(sine it is all automated without any need for a C'tan) that is capable of shunting consciouness around. Again, another precedent for Necron tech moving their consciouness around without the need for C'tan.

At any rate, it doesn't matter. You will not see the flaws in the fluff. It all locks for you(general you). It jars for myself. Done now.

HereticLosMorte
05-08-2008, 19:16
the c'tan offered the necrontyr immortality in a sense. for a race the is dying and wanting to live forever, immortality would sound like one hell of a deal to help the c'tan.
they probably didn't realize they were going to lose their bodies/free thinking while becoming "immortal", but usually something seemingly so grand is too good to be true.
sure, they gained their "immortality" but they lost their lives as they were.

so, the numbers game would most likely come into play, when this dying race would be so keen on achieving immortality, the c'tan therefore would have a vast army on their hands.

why then, would it be so unbelievable that they attacked the old ones, who would never had a clue that they'd have such an army, nor were heading their way... surprise attack anyone? even a superior foe can (and has) lost a battle just due to surprise.

elusiveintrovert
05-08-2008, 21:04
[QUOTE=Lord Damocles;2839843]
Again, i disagree with the C'tan being able to alter the physical world. They have what are essentially pyschic power but they are not psychic. How/Why would an energy being be able to fundamentally alter the world around? Hurl bolts of energy-yes. no lo contendre. But warp reality? That really is the purview of warpcraft and the like.

Just because it may have an affect that is similar to what can be done with warp magic or psychic powers does not mean it can't be something else. There are often many different methods that can be taken to produce the same or similar results. The C'tan have no warp presence, so what they do cannot be the result of any form of "warpcraft."




so we dont have a quote of how the Ctan are involved in shifting consciouness yet we have a precedent of the Necrontyr having the necrodermis tech and understanding enough of an ALIEN consciouness to adapt a Necrodermis to fit in it, so what could the C'tan possibly offer them?

I would imagine that putting an energy being into a necrodermis is different than removeing the conciousness from a matterial being and puting it into a necrodermis.

From reading the codex though, it almost seems as if the necrontyr began communicating with the C'tan, and the built the star bridge (whatever that is) and said here you go.

As to the C'tan having knowlege of necrontyr science, they were around for a period of time before the necrontyr rallied to go back to war with the old ones. They had an ambiguous amount of time to learn what they wanted to know. So maybe the C'tan were able to learn all of the Necrontyr science and put forth improvements.



And if the Necrontry jealous enough of the Old Ones to attack them(dumb), why would they worship the very beings that cursed them with the fraility/short lives the Necrontyr sought to escape?

We are talking about alien psychology here, so making such blanket statements about them I think does not do any good. In human history, jealousy has been more than enough reason to go to war. It may seem like an even better reason to an embittered person. The Necrontyr seem to come of as somewhat of a bleak, bitter, and angry race, although reading the backround I think it took a long time for them to go to war as their entire backround is stretched over millions of years. So maybe they did ask for help, and maybe they didn't. Maybe they just watched the old ones from a distance and brooded over their jealousy. It's somewhat open as to what the specific reason that they went to war.

Also the C'tan were not neccessarily the cause of the Necrontyr's short lives. The Nightbringer was only found feeding on their native star after they were beaten back by the old ones. I suppose it may have been there the entire time, but its just as likely that it wasn't.



Ok lets assume, despite the flaws in the premise, that the C'tan were responsible for allowing the Necrontyr to jump into Necron bodies. But his offer was resisted. How can a handful of C'tan, with just a relatively few Necron servants, have taken an entire species/culture that had a better understanding of the very technology they were being shunted into? Wouldnt they have....i dont know..fought back? Escaped on ships? I guess it's not just the fact that the Necrontyr would have had the tech advantage, its the number disparity.


...the Necrontyr could pursue their vengance of the Old Ones through the millennia without fear or hesitation.

So the messanger proclaimed, but despite its honeyed words the Necrontyr were riven with doubt at the prospect.

So the Necrontyr didn't just go along with the prospect.


It was only now that the Deciever's true face began to show as it lured the unbelievers into the clutches of the faithful with promises of mediation and comprimise. All were seized by the believers and delivered to their fate.

So some of them did resist the chage, but were trapped and force to do so anyway.

slaanghoul
06-08-2008, 07:25
What stupid is that GW actually put a Star God on a table top game. If anything, they should be in Epic not 40k and even that, is a bit risky. I can't see how a being so weak such as C'tan can rule a galaxy at one time. C'tan should be able to just kill everything on the table and say I win on turn one, but what .. . they have 6 wounds or something? WEAK

Privaron
06-08-2008, 07:37
Hence why in 5th ed Crons they are being removed all together and being replaced by heralds.

Lord Damocles
06-08-2008, 10:25
No my argument does not as you still havent shown a quote that says that they (the Ctan) could or HOW they could shift Necron minds from flesh to machine, and yet the Necrontyr clearly understoond how to transfer an ALIEN mind to a machine, as they built a Necrodermis shell to capable of accomdating the C'tan. A precedent within the fluff that predates the C'tan arrival. So if the Necrontyr can build something that allows for a transfer of C'tan consciouness, why not their own physiology/biology, which they understand more clearly? That doesnt make much sense. I am showing how it does not make sense within their own fluff as written.
Again i am pointing out these little plot holes in the fluff that could use some addressing.
You keep saying that the necrontyr understood how to transfer the C'tan into the Necrodermis. As far as we know they didn't know how to. All we do know is that they made shells for them to inhabit and spoke to them with 'aeons long words' (Codex, pg. 31).
It's one thing for a race to accomodate the transference of a sentient cloud of gasses and energy, but it's a huge leap to assume that this means that they could do the same with themselves.
To use an (abmittedly bizare) analogy:
If the C'tan were a cloud of mist, then all the Necrontyr did was hold open a plastic bag and ask the mist to go into it.
Doing this doesn't mean that you can take all the moisture out of your body and put it into that bag however.


All the evidence we have from the Necron background sugests that the Necrontyr couldn't transfer their own consciousnesses.
If you want to show that there's some massive hole in the background, you've got to be able to show that the Necrontyr could have made the tranformation on their own. As it is, this is impossible, as nothing in the Codex or elsewhere says that they could.


Again, i disagree with the C'tan being able to alter the physical world.
The background disagrees with YOU.

They can fly/levitate, move through solid objects, shoot energy bolts, change their form at will etc etc.



Ok lets assume, despite the flaws in the premise, that the C'tan were responsible for allowing the Necrontyr to jump into Necron bodies. But his offer was resisted. How can a handful of C'tan, with just a relatively few Necron servants, have taken an entire species/culture that had a better understanding of the very technology they were being shunted into?
You might want to read pages 28, 30 and 31 of the Codex.

Mercer
06-08-2008, 11:43
lets say if the Necrontyr could transfer their consciousnesses into metal bodies, then surely they would have done it already with there poor bodies?

A C'Tan, well the Deceiver was the one that convinced them to do it. Perhaps the Deceiver found some way to do it with Necrontyr technology, and also actually going through the process itself.

Ohhh and the Necron codex says C'Tan numbered in there 1000's.

Mercer

Poseidal
06-08-2008, 13:11
The background disagrees with YOU.

They can fly/levitate, move through solid objects, shoot energy bolts, change their form at will etc etc.
None of these make them 'masters' of it to alter it: A Vyper Jetbike can fly/levitate and shoot energy bolts; tzeench sorcerers/daemons can change their form at will, possibly move through solid objects, certainly shoot energy bolts at will and can fly/levitate.

DapperAnarchist
06-08-2008, 14:12
Yeah, and Tzeentch sorcerers are among the most powerful beings in the galaxy, with the ability to warp the world around them as they will it... Which would make them masters as well. Saying "the C'Tan aren't masters, cos these guys, who are also masters, can do the same stuff" isn't a very good arguement.

Perhaps the success of the "Star Bridge" was a bit of a suprise, like a cargo cult suddenly actually working... Like if the Raelians actually brought aliens down to Jerusalem, they'd be pretty shocked, but they try anyway.

Poseidal
06-08-2008, 14:30
Yeah, and Tzeentch sorcerers are among the most powerful beings in the galaxy, with the ability to warp the world around them as they will it... Which would make them masters as well. Saying "the C'Tan aren't masters, cos these guys, who are also masters, can do the same stuff" isn't a very good arguement.
Once you pile on enough examples though, it does really dilute the impact of it. Considering that shapechanging and flowing through materials at will are due to Necron Technology (living metal and Necron wraiths), you basically have flying and firing energy bolts.

So Eldar Vypers and all gravtanks, Necron Destroyers, Tau Vehicles, Landspeeders with Multimeltas and Jump Pack Marines with Plasma Pistols are all as powereful as a C'Tan was (according to that description) apart from two abilities that are granted by existing Necron Technology.

So from this you can conclude that "They can fly/levitate, move through solid objects, shoot energy bolts, change their form at will etc etc. " isn't as an impressive resume as it looks, and the ability shows that Necrons are one of if not the most advanced race in terms of technology - which is not news.

DapperAnarchist
06-08-2008, 14:36
Oh yeah, we know that - its the Galahad factor. Galahad was one of the greatest of warriors - but most of the stories we have are him being shown up by the hero of the story, cos what better way to show your character to be cool than to have him be better than Galahad? The power of the Necron tech and the C'tans powers are not in the effect, but the cause - its not warp, its not this, its not that, but the effect is the same as psychic powers, as warp tech, as a boltgun, what ever...

Ubermensch Commander
06-08-2008, 15:13
@ Lord Damocles
I know the fluff states that the C'tan could alter reality. I am not denying that.
What i am saying is that it seems a flimsy premise, and is a Deus Ex Machina (No pun intended) in order to have the Necron's enslaved to the will of the C'tan in the fluff, thereby justifying the C'tans existence.
The C'tan, after all, simply seem to be interstellar parasites made of energy. They feed on stars and can view wavelengths of energy, such as electromagnetic energy, that are invisible to the naked (human) eye. That is fine and dandy. But the leap of logic i have a problem with, is that simply because they are made of energy, HOW/WHY should they be able to do these things? Being made of energy and really ancient(say...like a star or other ) does not mean you inherently can shape reality around you. Reality does not warp around a plasma reactor. While the C'tan are not exactly a plamsa reactor, they are still simply made of energy. I am having this cognitive break there. The fluff simply says "The C'tan are masters of the physcial world!". It never gives, in my mind, an adequate reason for such abilities and these abilities seem to be there simply to make the C'tan "teh ubermonsters" and give a reason for them ruling/enslaving the Necrontyr. As for the transfer of consciouness-It never says HOW OR WHY the CTAN were able or necessary for this process, being just star parasites. Plot Hole. Unsatifactorily addressed and false premise. or at the very least....poorly written fluff. I do not know how much clearer i can make it. As for a precedence of the Necrons and their knowledge of transfer of consciouness....it was Necrontyr tech that made the shells that inahbit that are able to hold their consciouness, even unto the point of destruction. This would theoretically show a knowledge of how their mind and how it could be transferred. If you build a radio, you would theoretically have some understanding or knowledge of what radio waves were and how they worked.
I think I should make something clear. For much of what i have issues with, it is not that i am denying it's in the fluff. I have a problem with the fluff itself at several points. I am not alone in this as the OP and others have pointed out. So quoting that it is in the book is not satisfactorily answering the issues i have with what is written. I feel it is poorly written and could be enhanced GREATLY by simply...removing the C'tan. Which is why i am overjoyed since it seems that GW is retconning their(The C'tan) backstory in 5th edition. Only time will tell.

Mercer
06-08-2008, 15:14
The Necron codex says that C'Tan can re-shape things around them. They are the masters of the materium. They are the opposites to the chaos gods.

Wraiths only phase in out, due to technology. C'Tan phase out because they can. They change their form because they can. They fire lightning bolts and other shendig because they can.

Mercer

HereticLosMorte
06-08-2008, 16:34
@ Lord Damocles
I know the fluff states that the C'tan could alter reality. I am not denying that.
What i am saying is that it seems a flimsy premise, and is a Deus Ex Machina (No pun intended) in order to have the Necron's enslaved to the will of the C'tan in the fluff, thereby justifying the C'tans existence.
The C'tan, after all, simply seem to be interstellar parasites made of energy. They feed on stars and can view wavelengths of energy, such as electromagnetic energy, that are invisible to the naked (human) eye. That is fine and dandy. But the leap of logic i have a problem with, is that simply because they are made of energy, HOW/WHY should they be able to do these things? Being made of energy and really ancient(say...like a star or other ) does not mean you inherently can shape reality around you. Reality does not warp around a plasma reactor. While the C'tan are not exactly a plamsa reactor, they are still simply made of energy. I am having this cognitive break there. The fluff simply says "The C'tan are masters of the physcial world!". It never gives, in my mind, an adequate reason for such abilities and these abilities seem to be there simply to make the C'tan "teh ubermonsters" and give a reason for them ruling/enslaving the Necrontyr. As for the transfer of consciouness-It never says HOW OR WHY the CTAN were able or necessary for this process, being just star parasites. Plot Hole. Unsatifactorily addressed and false premise. or at the very least....poorly written fluff. I do not know how much clearer i can make it. As for a precedence of the Necrons and their knowledge of transfer of consciouness....it was Necrontyr tech that made the shells that inahbit that are able to hold their consciouness, even unto the point of destruction. This would theoretically show a knowledge of how their mind and how it could be transferred. If you build a radio, you would theoretically have some understanding or knowledge of what radio waves were and how they worked.
I think I should make something clear. For much of what i have issues with, it is not that i am denying it's in the fluff. I have a problem with the fluff itself at several points. I am not alone in this as the OP and others have pointed out. So quoting that it is in the book is not satisfactorily answering the issues i have with what is written. I feel it is poorly written and could be enhanced GREATLY by simply...removing the C'tan. Which is why i am overjoyed since it seems that GW is retconning their(The C'tan) backstory in 5th edition. Only time will tell.

if they gave away all the mystery it'd be boring.
they haven't really given a whole lot of background info or detailed descriptions of the c'tan genetic make-up for us to discern what they can/can't do for ourselves.
it's just the same as why they haven't said what the 2 missing legions are, what happened to them, etc.
they never explained how 3 of the 4 current chaos gods came to be, we only know that slaanesh was created at the height of the eldar's excesses.
they haven't given much information away on the old ones, where they came from, how they came to be.
there is ALOT of mystery in the storyline, it will get more and more filled in as time comes along.

Lord Damocles
06-08-2008, 18:08
if they gave away all the mystery it'd be boring.
This.

Just because we're not told how they can do something doesn't mean that it's incomprehensible that they could/did.

We're never told how Macharius was able to conquer a world every three days for a hundred years (I think those numbers are right). But GW doesn't need to tell us exactly how he did it, how much logistical support he had, what percentage of worlds were inhabited etc. due to the rule of cool.

C'tan are gods (at least to the same degree as all other 40K deities are gods). Therefore they can do things which make no sense to us (like turning the Necrontyr into the Necrons, or twisting reality around themselves). We don't need to be told how they did it, we just need to accept that they did: and no amount of crying 'it makes no sense!' will change the fact that the background says they did it, and suggests that the Necrontyr couldn't do it on their own.

DapperAnarchist
06-08-2008, 18:40
Hell, we don't know how lots of things happened - how did the psyker gene evolve in humanity? how does a warp drive work? Or a gellar field? How does Abbadon remain in control after 13 failed crusades? Etc etc etc...

I don't know if it would be boring - that implies that the 40Kverse relies entirely on gimmicks (which might be about 50% true, but not totally) but it simply DOESN'T MATTER. Contrary to what the box says, this is not Sci-Fi. Its Far-Future Fantasy.

Ubermensch Commander
06-08-2008, 19:04
This.

Just because we're not told how they can do something doesn't mean that it's incomprehensible that they could/did.

We're never told how Macharius was able to conquer a world every three days for a hundred years (I think those numbers are right). But GW doesn't need to tell us exactly how he did it, how much logistical support he had, what percentage of worlds were inhabited etc. due to the rule of cool.

C'tan are gods (at least to the same degree as all other 40K deities are gods). Therefore they can do things which make no sense to us (like turning the Necrontyr into the Necrons, or twisting reality around themselves). We don't need to be told how they did it, we just need to accept that they did: and no amount of crying 'it makes no sense!' will change the fact that the background says they did it, and suggests that the Necrontyr couldn't do it on their own.


Ok how bout if i cry "it is written like the mary sue in a fan fic" instead.
Establish 40K fluff: Warp energy bends reality. The Chaos Gods are the collections of pyschic energy tied to specific ideals and emotions that have congealed and grown powerful/sentient in the warp.

Marcharius conquering worlds makes sense in that it is perfectly feasible (within the 40k universe) that a force that he had command of, can conquer so many worlds. BTW, he took "nearly a thousand worlds in just seven years of fighting." Yeah the time frame is REALLY pushing feasibility, but i suppose when you got an entire Sector's worth of Guardsmen or more at your back, you can hit multiple worlds at once.

Also, any jarring there is minor, as it does not seek to rewrite other races fluff and it isnt the premise for an entire race's fall to their current status and a billion year long history(granted alot of it was being asleep)

But trying to fit in things lke "the C'tan are like gods" when the "Ct'an are like clouds of space energy" is strange and poorly written.

Their weakness is the warp(that has been solidly established)....but the Old Ones could create psychic races as weapons. How did they even become a threat? "Mwahah ia m like unto Superman! I cannot be stopped except by one weaknes.....which you seem to have in abundance. Drat."

An Example: Trying to tie in the Age of Strife, the Ad mechanicus, and the root of human tech to the Dragon on Mars...is poorly written. It grates with alot of exisiting fluff and seems to do so SIMPLY to try and make the new race of the Necrons seem so much more badarse and scary.

-the Ad Mechs were a simple devoultion of human knowledge and a jab at mankinds tendency to go all creepy cult religion of anything we dont know. TO chang it to "Necrons did it!" is strange and vaguely pointless.
-The Dragon on Mars? Really? Assuming the humans (during the Golden Age) hadn't found it, dug it up, and cut it to pieces to reverse engineer it, wouldnt the Emperor, who walked on Mars and was active at this point would have gone and said "oh no we cant have that." That isnt even counting the Eldar, the ancient Enemies of the Necrons, who had weapond designed specifically to destroy them, didnt start blow the thing up while he slept for.......well it was good night's sleep. I also believe the Eldar PUT the Dragon there, so therefore would know where he was. I could be wrong on this though.

There is good fluff to the Necrons as well. It is simply that so much it seems like a poor attempt to just puff up the Necrons and the C'tan as ancient, scary, and supposedly been there the whole time.
So no they dont need to explain everything, and yeah there should be some mystery but that does not change fluff being poorly thought out or poorly presented. Too much conspiracy nonsense, not enough actual background.



Ok, ill stop pointing to the holes in Necron fluff. It suspends other people's disbelief. They see no holes. Ok ok.


BTW, any confirmation on where the Outsider is? I recall he got stuffed into a dyson sphere and chucked to the edges o the cosmos.

Poseidal
06-08-2008, 19:42
if they gave away all the mystery it'd be boring.
This.

Just because we're not told how they can do something doesn't mean that it's incomprehensible that they could/did.
To be honest, I think they gave far too much away in the Necron Codex. If more of Necron Society was described, and the C'Tan merely mythological and shadowy creatures in it the story would be much more potent (where do the Callidus temple get their blades? and Pariahs/Culexus! Ahhh!).

If the shoehorning was more subtly hinted, people would respond "Oh crap!" rather than "Oh no, not again."

My 2 pence.

HereticLosMorte
06-08-2008, 19:43
no idea on that one, you sure it wasn't a dyson vaccuum cleaner?

hehe sorry, the gf has been raving about them nonstop lately.

Ubermensch Commander
06-08-2008, 19:49
no idea on that one, you sure it wasn't a dyson vaccuum cleaner?

hehe sorry, the gf has been raving about them nonstop lately.

OF COURSE! That must be it! The artifact in all the universe that can trap the C'tan. Now...to turn it on the CHAOS GODS! NONE CAN WITHSTAND THE POWER OF THE DYSON VACCUUM CLEANER! *insert maniacal laughter here*
Hahahah Dyson vacuum clearner...heh.
I ask because i have read about the Outsider being shoved into a Dyson sphere(hamster ball) and booted to the bottom of the galaxy(wherever that is), but i do not recall reading it in the codex. So i am wondering where this data comes from.

heretics bane
06-08-2008, 21:34
Hell, we don't know how lots of things happened - how did the psyker gene evolve in humanity? how does a warp drive work? Or a gellar field? How does Abbadon remain in control after 13 failed crusades? Etc etc etc... .

Well to be honest i know this is of topic but abbadons black crusades wherent about taking out the imperium more about gathering resources etc.

jfrazell
06-08-2008, 22:03
The necrontyr would have evolved to have really short lifespans, after all there is no need to have a long natural life if you are certain to die young from cancer, so even if they left their homeworld their DNA would continue to limit their lifespans.

Exterminatus is probably not a good way to destroy a necron tomb world. The tomb itself is probably buried too deep and too dense for it to be completeley destroyed by cyclonic torpedoes and they would laugh in the face of virus bombs or atmospheric incinerators.

True. Lances and burrowing torpedoes are eminently better in this capacity.

slaanghoul
07-08-2008, 11:06
OF COURSE! That must be it! The artifact in all the universe that can trap the C'tan. Now...to turn it on the CHAOS GODS! NONE CAN WITHSTAND THE POWER OF THE DYSON VACCUUM CLEANER! *insert maniacal laughter here*
Hahahah Dyson vacuum clearner...heh.
I ask because i have read about the Outsider being shoved into a Dyson sphere(hamster ball) and booted to the bottom of the galaxy(wherever that is), but i do not recall reading it in the codex. So i am wondering where this data comes from.

LOL. Did you know how Spiderman originally defeated Sandman. . . . with a freaking Dust buster.

Ubermensch Commander
07-08-2008, 15:11
LOL. Did you know how Spiderman originally defeated Sandman. . . . with a freaking Dust buster.

hahah yeah. Their first fight. Then he took pictures of himself fighting sawdust to sell to the Daily Bugle cause he forget to film himself fighting Sandman. hey a superhero has to pay the bills SOMEHOW. haha.