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Lord_Squinty
05-08-2008, 10:54
Hi all,

Having read the HH books, I am aware of an imperial Edict issued by the emperor forbidding the use of Psychic powers. I have a few questions needing answered.

1. Was this only forbidding the Thousand sons and their Primarch from practicing or did it cover all chapters?

2. When was this over-ruled (and by whom) to allow Librarians to be used by marines or psykers to be used by the Inquisition etc...

3. Were Librarians used pre-heresy or were they only sanctioned after the heresy?

Cheers,

Squinty

LexxBomb
05-08-2008, 11:17
1. the Emperor forbad the use of socery not psychic powers. his very stature and Awe are psychic in nature and dont forget that the primarchs relied upon their psychic potential to combat enermies such as the Eldar and the Orks.

2. the thousand sons practiced sorcery (a practice that involves the bargaining of power with warp entities) not a genuine psychic powers.

TheOverlord
05-08-2008, 11:29
The Librarian Program existed Pre-Heresy, introduced by Magnus, later repealed during the ... god I forgot it's name... convention, in which where Leman Russ strongly suggested that these psychics were using sorcery. The Emperor banned all usage of 'PSYCHIC' powers that do not directly relate to the navigation and astropathic communication, and shut Magnus down, forbidding him to continue his research in psychic powers.

Later on, the Emperor repealed his orders , I think this was when he was interred into the Golden Throne or something, not sure about this though.

Sorcery IS psychic in nature, it is simply a more ritualistic and primitive version of it, although the Thousand Sons were masters of such powers.

-edit- The Nikea Convention, that was it's name :D

Phoenix Blaze
05-08-2008, 11:35
I think Librarians were used pre-heresy, but after the Nikea council, they were banned from practicing their psychic arts. That's also when Chaplains were supposedly brought in to make sure that no Librarian got any ideas about using the Warp to his advantage.

Apologist
05-08-2008, 11:39
The Librarian 'corps' (for want of a better word) was sanctioned early on in the Great Crusade (Librarians being present in Descent of Angels, which precedes the rest of the HH series); though I'm fairly sure there's no canonical date for its introduction. It allowed Legions to train brethren that demonstrated psychic talent to specialise in its use. I believe it's hinted that the Emperor initially allowed librarians to be trained in psychic warfare, possibly because of Magnus' encouragement; and likely because a lack of psychic defence left a gaping hole in the Legion's way of war against certain aliens.

It certainly then became a rather contentious group, with some Legions refusing to use it (World Eaters, I believe), some developing a small Librarian corps simply because of the edict (Ultramarines, Imperial Fists), and some embracing it wholeheartedly (esp. Thousand Sons).

The Council of Nikea was called by the Emperor is variously listed as banning the use of psychic powers, banning use of sorcery and banning the deployment and training of Librarians. Personally, I think that this is simply one of those cases where there's been a less than exact definition, and an author has simply substituted 'sorcery' for 'psychic powers'; a common bit of doublethink in 40k...

That said, I think the most likely interpretation is this, from WD 267

The Tension had reached a palpable knife edge of violence when a contigent of Space Marine librarians approached the dias. The Emperor aknowledged them with a nod and all fell silent...a young Epistolary stepped forward to deliver their words...A Psyker, he proposed, like an athlete was a gifted individual who's native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themelves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forever more as an unforgivable heresy against mankind.

Thus a distinction is drawn between sorcery (pacts with warp agents etc.; forming a type of psychic powers), and psychic powers in general.

Of course, this interpretation does leave the question 'why no librarians in the HH series?', so a very possible alternative is that 'psychic power' is simply a euphemism for 'sorcery'; and it's all banned.

In short, the canon contradicts itself, and you'll need to make your own decision.

Caelnaethon
05-08-2008, 16:49
Making things even messier, it's generally said that until the Horus Heresy was actually in full swing, very, very few people even knew about Chaos or the threat it posed. The danger of "sorcery" is fairly meaningless if you're following the official line that Daemons don't exist. The prejudice that led to the existence (and subsequent destruction) of psyker refuges like Prospero, and presumably helped bring about the Council of Nikea, was almost certainly against all psykers, not against any particular branch. For the Emperor to ban just trafficking with Daemons, he would have had to publically acknowledge that such things exist.

Talos
05-08-2008, 17:13
In the newest HH book the word bearers have liberians. I know they are corrupted by then but I am pretty sure the legions kept on to a few of them.

Lotan
05-08-2008, 18:25
It certainly then became a rather contentious group, with some Legions refusing to use it (World Eaters, I believe),



The World Eaters used Librarians, it's in the new Chaos Marine Codex in the sorcerors section. After they turned to worship Khorne the hunted down their legions librarians and killed then as a sacrifice to him because he had such hatred for sorcery.

ryng_sting
05-08-2008, 20:58
Librarians were the creation of Magnus the Red. He pioneered the Librarian programme and, later, exported it to the other legions. Some welcomed the move while others decried it, eventually forcing the ruling of Nikaea.

The fluff has two takes on what happened there: 1. Psyker powers were allowed, though sorcery was outlawed; 2. All psyker activity was banned outright, and the Librarian programme was to be dismantled. The HH novels support the latter conclusion, the Index Astartes series the former.

While this might (justly) be taken as a goof on the writers' part, you could view it as the result of the Imperium re-writing its own history. (What would be more suitable than something as fundamental as psykers in the military?)

Talos
05-08-2008, 21:16
I know the Word bearers where with Chaos at the time so this point may be moot. But in the newest HH book they still have Librarians and this was after the ruling at Nikaea.

Feor
05-08-2008, 22:05
The Collected Visions lists the Coucil of Nikea as banning all non-essential psykers, and the Chaplain program being implemented across every Legion as a means of policing this edict. It also states that Big E and Malcador were both aware of the vagaries of interstellar communication, so were slow to react when reports came in of legions still using librarians and not using Chaplians.

So it's quite possible that Lorgar "never got the memo" and kept using psykers, knowing it wouldn't matter much longer. Collected Visions also has the bit about the founding of the Inquisition and, presumably, the Grey Knights, when Malcador presents 8 Marines to the Emperor who had been suppressing their psychic talents in respect to the Emperor's earlier edicts.

Col. Tartleton
05-08-2008, 22:14
Ya, the marines weren't taken out or killed or something. They were just told not to use their powers.

Xisor
05-08-2008, 22:51
As it seems established in the HH series:

1- Legions pre-Heresy have Librarians (see: Descent of Angels)
2- The council of Nikea bans sorcery (various & wide)
3- Any sort of psykery is viewed as sorcery, at least by the Space Wolves (hardly unsurprising, but supported in Battle for the Abyss)
4- By the time of Battle for the Abyss the Legions had stopped using their Librarian corps publically, such that any sort of psychic-stuff was dubious in the extreme but that navigators and astropaths were still tolerated without question

I think we can conclude that

5- The Librarian Corps was simply told "Don't use your powers at all" until the Council of Nikea had reached a more suitable decision. (This meshes well with the IA re:Librarians. If they said "Let us use it as a boon for all mankind" then it's perfectly fine for the Emperor to say "Hold on a moment whilst we sort out a proper programme of training!")
6- I think we ought to see an HH trilogy with books entitled Librarian(focussing on pre-Nikea librarians), Chaplain focussing on post-Chaplain-Edict legions and then Commander (a book focussing on the after effects of the Heresy in Scouring/Harrowing era. Indeed a single book would suffice told from multiple perspectives)
7- It all makes alot more sense if the Emperor, unsuspecting of the Horus Heresy, felt he had a decade or five to figure out a proper solution to the Librarian conundrum...

I hope you concur!

(That said, it's very telling that the likes of Russ and the Space Wolves are vehemently anti-psyker with no good reason. It illustrates how 'not-far-at-all' the Space Wolves were from Heresy. How would the Emperor have responded when, on unveiling a fairly brilliant solution to the Librarian Conundrum, Leman Russ may have said "F. off, Imperium! We're having nothing to do with witches and we'll fight you every step of the way!" ? Hmmm?

Feor
05-08-2008, 23:50
I always got more of the impression that it was "The Emperor said no Psykers, so NO PSYKERS!"

He didn't so much hate that Magnus was using sorcery, but that he was going against the Emperor's wishes in doing so.

Templar Ben
06-08-2008, 00:47
I agree. Besides the BT are the ones keeping the orders that the Emperor actually left and not what people said were orders after being interred. ;)

baphomael
06-08-2008, 01:03
Of course, what one must bear in mind is the Council of Nikea is an obvious play on the real-world Council of Nicaea - which, if one looks into, was fairly contentious and was sometimes ignored.

The 1000 Sons history (the whole burning of Prosperor type thing) is a play on the attitudes of the prevailing catholic church towards 'heretics' (notably, the Cathars).

LexxBomb
06-08-2008, 03:54
As it seems established in the HH series:

1- Legions pre-Heresy have Librarians (see: Descent of Angels)
2- The council of Nikea bans sorcery (various & wide)
3- Any sort of psykery is viewed as sorcery, at least by the Space Wolves (hardly unsurprising, but supported in Battle for the Abyss)
4- By the time of Battle for the Abyss the Legions had stopped using their Librarian corps publically, such that any sort of psychic-stuff was dubious in the extreme but that navigators and astropaths were still tolerated without question

I think we can conclude that

5- The Librarian Corps was simply told "Don't use your powers at all" until the Council of Nikea had reached a more suitable decision. (This meshes well with the IA re:Librarians. If they said "Let us use it as a boon for all mankind" then it's perfectly fine for the Emperor to say "Hold on a moment whilst we sort out a proper programme of training!")
6- I think we ought to see an HH trilogy with books entitled Librarian(focussing on pre-Nikea librarians), Chaplain focussing on post-Chaplain-Edict legions and then Commander (a book focussing on the after effects of the Heresy in Scouring/Harrowing era. Indeed a single book would suffice told from multiple perspectives)
7- It all makes alot more sense if the Emperor, unsuspecting of the Horus Heresy, felt he had a decade or five to figure out a proper solution to the Librarian conundrum...

I hope you concur!

(That said, it's very telling that the likes of Russ and the Space Wolves are vehemently anti-psyker with no good reason. It illustrates how 'not-far-at-all' the Space Wolves were from Heresy. How would the Emperor have responded when, on unveiling a fairly brilliant solution to the Librarian Conundrum, Leman Russ may have said "F. off, Imperium! We're having nothing to do with witches and we'll fight you every step of the way!" ? Hmmm?


great list man:)

i would also like to add that while the The council of Nikea banns the use of sorcery it includes the addition of the chaplains to maintain this order...That was the Official reason for the chaplians but the real reason was the Horus added chaplains so as to create warrior lodges whithin the legions so that they would fall to chaos like his legion did.

p.s. also what if Horus had influenced the council into banning the use of pychers... thereby removing a great weapon against his new allies... deamons. the only real weapon that the Imperium has against the deamon legions are pychers.

remember it was only when the Space Wolves attacked the Thousand Sons that they fell to chaos before that they were utterly loyal to the Emperor and tried to warn him of Horus heresy... in the long run Horus through the council forces Magnus to fall to chaos out of survival. which could mean that even though magnus is now a deamon prince he could just be a puppet of Tzeench which makes sence when you look at Fulgrim

Phoenix Blaze
06-08-2008, 11:56
As much as the council of Nikea makes Chaplains all that more badass, I think I would've prefered it if they'd always been around. I've always seen them as the "life coaches" for the Legions. Like a marine's faith is failing him so he goes and sees the Chaplain to get some help.

And it's entirely possible that the Wolves would rebel. Infact, I remember discussing this once and that even in 40K, the Wolves are the most likely to rebel (not turn traitor) due to the way the Imperium is now run. They stick most to the ways of the Great Crusade in terms of beliefs and structure.

Templar Ben
06-08-2008, 17:17
Interesting. I had not heard anyone say Wolves followed more than Templar. I haven't read the HH books though so that could well be true but I agree that the Space Wolves have more love for the Emperor's ideal than what the Imp of Man has become.

LexxBomb
06-08-2008, 18:05
i dont know about that Templar Ben after all part of the Mission of the Great Crusade was to spread the use and cultural knowlegde of technology... basicly the Emperor wanted science to be the fundamental core of his Empire and this goes against the Space Wolves because they dont trust science... they place their trust in superstition. The Emperor specificly wanted to stamp this out. as such the Space Wolves are not following in the Ideals of the Emperors vision.

Templar Ben
06-08-2008, 19:09
Well as I said I have not read the revisioning in the HH books.

LexxBomb
07-08-2008, 02:39
fair enough... if you get the chance I would strongly recommend them, ythey are great to read.

Nazguire
07-08-2008, 05:03
i would also like to add that while the The council of Nikea banns the use of sorcery it includes the addition of the chaplains to maintain this order...That was the Official reason for the chaplians but the real reason was the Horus added chaplains so as to create warrior lodges whithin the legions so that they would fall to chaos like his legion did.

He hadn't been wounded on Davin by that time. Chaplains already existed in the form of the Word Bearers and were simply marketed to the other Legions.



p.s. also what if Horus had influenced the council into banning the use of pychers... thereby removing a great weapon against his new allies... deamons. the only real weapon that the Imperium has against the deamon legions are pychers.

Again, Horus hadn't turned to Chaos at that time.




remember it was only when the Space Wolves attacked the Thousand Sons that they fell to chaos before that they were utterly loyal to the Emperor and tried to warn him of Horus heresy... in the long run Horus through the council forces Magnus to fall to chaos out of survival. which could mean that even though magnus is now a deamon prince he could just be a puppet of Tzeench which makes sence when you look at Fulgrim

Again, Horus hadn't turned to Chaos at this time. Magnus may have been loyal to the Emperor, but he certainly wasn't loyal to his ideals, beliefs or orders. Hence the whole breaching the wards of the Imperial Palace with a sorcerous message dilemma. Magnus could just as well of used a 'normal' way of communication (by Astropath or machine) and the Emperor wouldn't have (or at least, we can assume as much) reacted so strongly.
Magnus used his sorcery in order to vindicate his belief in sorcery to the Emperor and prove the Emperor was wrong.

Magnus accepts he is a puppet of Tzeentch. There is a quote from Magnus in the new Chaos Codex that says as much.

Plus Tzeentch even said to him "You would destroy my pawns so readily Magnus?" when Magnus was about to vaporise Ahriman.

Drasanil
07-08-2008, 05:40
Magnus accepts he is a puppet of Tzeentch. There is a quote from Magnus in the new Chaos Codex that says as much.

Out of curiosity (I don't have the chaos 'dex) could you please produce this quote?

It just seems odd to me, Magnus was a rather "good" person who was unnable to accept the emperor's ruling because he thought it wrong, to then simply lie down and take Tzeentch's word(or multitude of contridictory words) as gospel. I always got the impression he would look for a way to get back at Tzeentch, especially after the whole Ahriman incident, not to take into account that it was Tzeentch (from what I understand) that played him for a fool and led him into his current situation.

LexxBomb
07-08-2008, 10:46
He hadn't been wounded on Davin by that time. Chaplains already existed in the form of the Word Bearers and were simply marketed to the other Legions.



Again, Horus hadn't turned to Chaos at that time.




Again, Horus hadn't turned to Chaos at this time. Magnus may have been loyal to the Emperor, but he certainly wasn't loyal to his ideals, beliefs or orders. Hence the whole breaching the wards of the Imperial Palace with a sorcerous message dilemma. Magnus could just as well of used a 'normal' way of communication (by Astropath or machine) and the Emperor wouldn't have (or at least, we can assume as much) reacted so strongly.
Magnus used his sorcery in order to vindicate his belief in sorcery to the Emperor and prove the Emperor was wrong.

Magnus accepts he is a puppet of Tzeentch. There is a quote from Magnus in the new Chaos Codex that says as much.

Plus Tzeentch even said to him "You would destroy my pawns so readily Magnus?" when Magnus was about to vaporise Ahriman.


if im wrong sorry but I honestly do not rememeber the HH Books ever mentioning that the council of Nikea happened before the books timeline. In fact in one of the Books Horus says that he plans on using the chaplains to corupt the other legions and plans into action to have all legions incorporate chaplains. this very fact seems to show that the council of Nikea happenes after Horus falls to chaos. hell after Horuys fell to chaos he didn't attack the Imperium straight away he bidded his time.

TheRedAngel
07-08-2008, 10:53
Again, Horus hadn't turned to Chaos at this time.
Disagree. The SW were send to Prospero after Davin. Magnus even tried to interfere at Davin before sending the warning.

Magnus may have been loyal to the Emperor, but he certainly wasn't loyal to his ideals, beliefs or orders. Hence the whole breaching the wards of the Imperial Palace with a sorcerous message dilemma. Magnus could just as well of used a 'normal' way of communication (by Astropath or machine) and the Emperor wouldn't have (or at least, we can assume as much) reacted so strongly. According to the "Visions" many of the Legions could not be reached via astrophaty by Terra/Malcador at that time for months, and the emperor was somewhere in the dungeons, so Magnus spell was probably the only way to contact him.

Magnus used his sorcery in order to vindicate his belief in sorcery to the Emperor and prove the Emperor was wrong.According to the new ("Visions") fluff.
Which is why I despise it so much.


Plus Tzeentch even said to him "You would destroy my pawns so readily Magnus?" when Magnus was about to vaporise Ahriman.At that time Magnus defenitly was a pawn/slave/servant of Tzeentch (The mutation of the TS started with the T worshipping and resulted in Ahrimans spell).

Nazguire
07-08-2008, 15:36
if im wrong sorry but I honestly do not rememeber the HH Books ever mentioning that the council of Nikea happened before the books timeline. In fact in one of the Books Horus says that he plans on using the chaplains to corupt the other legions and plans into action to have all legions incorporate chaplains. this very fact seems to show that the council of Nikea happenes after Horus falls to chaos. hell after Horuys fell to chaos he didn't attack the Imperium straight away he bidded his time.

Chaplains were already in use at that time. He was asking Erebus to start incorporating warrior lodges into the other Legions.

It doesn't show any fact that the Nikaea Council happened after Horus turned to Chaos.

Xisor
07-08-2008, 16:06
Ooh, some points.

1- Templar Ben, I think one might be better saying that the Space Wolves never followed the rule of the Imperium, the Black Templars are merely following an adapted form of that of the early Imperium (i.e. Crusading). The Balck Templars, as a template, surely aren't akin to simply a differently painted Imperial Fists Legion. So where the Space Wolves never adopted Imperial orthodoxy (at any time), the Black Templars do...they're just at the front of the wave (and, with regards to numbers and organisation...slightly more close to the Wolves than all other Chapters).

2- The Chaplain move seems a clever one on the front of Chaos and The Word of Lorgar.

3- The Warrior lodges is something I find very interesting. Did every legion suffer their predations? I.e. was there a somewhat treacherous/unorthodox contingent in the Ultramarines that simply didn't get very far? Was there a Promethean Lodge in the Salamanders Legion that managed to get very far, simply that it was so successful an idea it just worked well within their own paradigm...it was never going to be a threat? (This same idea would surely apply to the Space Wolves': a warrior lodge 'idea' wasn't a useful tool for undoing the authority or loyalty of their legion)

4- I believe it's noted in the HH:CV book that Horus revises the Emperor's orders to Leman Russ after Davin. That is: He says to 'prosecute the sorceror as he deserves' which is substantially more than the Emperor's presumed 'bring him to me and I'll sort him out'.

5- The HH has some very good and very interesting arcs. Some of the novels are not terribly well done or convincing, at points (Horus' fall was unconvincing) but some parts are excellent. The final descent of the Emperor's Children. The actions of the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons (so far). There's alot of depth and subtlety at points. :) At others...everyone is punching the air. :(